944 Suspension

[Rupert]

The suspension on the 944 is pretty worn out, so I'm replacing shocks and springs (and sway bars later). I want to go with a little stiffer setup, but not all that much. Looks like Bilstein Heavy Duty shocks/strut inserts are the best option, but I don't really know how heavy to go for springs. It's something like 125 lbs front and rear with the stock setup. I would think 200 lbs would be a little too stiff, but maybe not.

I know there are some factors that go into matching the dampers to the springs (or vice versa) so that the car isn't too springy/underdamped or overdamped/whatever the opposite would be-- stiff?, but I guess I don't fully understand the system. Since I know we have some suspension experts (as well as "experts" ) around here, how should I go about figuring out which springs to buy?

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Where are you buying these from?

I'd think that normally an outfit that sells porsche performance parts would reveal or sell the proper springs for the upgraded shocks.

Otherwise I'd just get some 600-800lb/in springs all around, make dat shit tyte.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Go ahead and ruin your suspension. Just remember that I know your car better than you do and that you should listen to me and just leave your suspension with genuine OEM Porsche parts only. There is no such thing as a good aftermarket part.

[Secret Chimp]

Go ahead and ruin your suspension. Just remember that I know your car better than you do and that you should listen to me and just leave your suspension with genuine OEM Porsche parts only. There is no such thing as a good aftermarket part.

You're really going to Wimmer this?

[Eye of the Tiger]

You're really going to Wimmer this?

I was trying to Chimp it, but I guess I can't quite think down on that level.

[Eye of the Tiger]

But seriously, the 944 should have had fairly well tuned OE suspension, and I'm willing to bet that the improvement you are looking for can be found by just replacing all the worn components with new near-OE-spec stuff. That includes rubber bushings. It's not like this is some Korean economy car that was built for the cheapest and most entry level of possible buyers.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

But seriously, the 944 should have had fairly well tuned OE suspension, and I'm willing to bet that the improvement you are looking for can be found by just replacing all the worn components with new near-OE-spec stuff. That includes rubber bushings. It's not like this is some Korean economy car that was built for the cheapest and most entry level of possible buyers.

From what I recall it was pretty good, my old 944 didn't have much roll in it and handled very well for it's age(both in design and actual age).

I'd either replace everything with stock or if there was a stiffer stock suspension(either in the turbo cars or the S cars) I'd convert it over to that. However from the reading I've done on bmw's and porsche, if you are going to go aftermarket then Bilstein sports or HD's and a good spring are the way to go.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Popped over to pelican parts(was my source for BMW/Porsche parts), looks like the bilstein HD's are a recommended upgrade. Imagine that, found the same thing in bmw land as well.

Hell, even alot of evo guys are running bilstein's with swift(iirc) springs as an "ultimate" street and light track setup.

[S204STi]

Go ahead and ruin your suspension. Just remember that I know your car better than you do and that you should listen to me and just leave your suspension with genuine OEM Porsche parts only. There is no such thing as a good aftermarket part.

That's never what Chimp says.

Rupert, you should just cut your stock sprangs so you'll get some immeasurable spring rate and far more drop than is good for the handling of the car... /fullretard

Seriously though, 200# may be a bit stiff for road work.  You might need to do some searching on this, but if the 944 Turbo offered a higher factory spring rate, I'd suggest trying a set of those.  Used might be cheaper than NOS, but with higher miles they might sag a bit in the ass-end...

[S204STi]

Popped over to pelican parts(was my source for BMW/Porsche parts), looks like the bilstein HD's are a recommended upgrade. Imagine that, found the same thing in bmw land as well.

Hell, even alot of evo guys are running bilstein's with swift(iirc) springs as an "ultimate" street and light track setup.

Swifts get good reviews from the NABISCO crowd too, but we don't have options from Bilstein for dampeners; Konis are what we tend to run/recommend, or Tokico.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

That's never what Chimp says.

Rupert, you should just cut your stock sprangs so you'll get some immeasurable spring rate and far more drop than is good for the handling of the car...

Seriously though, 200# may be a bit stiff for road work.  You might need to do some searching on this, but if the 944 Turbo offered a higher factory spring rate, I'd suggest trying a set of those.  Used might be cheaper than NOS, but with higher miles they might sag a bit in the ass-end...

Pelican states the 220lb was stock and offers a 250 with a 1.25 inch drop. If he doesn't want to lower ride height, the stock spring rate with the Bilstein HD's might be the best combination of factory ride but with a bit better body control.

[S204STi]

Pelican states the 220lb was stock and offers a 250 with a 1.25 inch drop. If he doesn't want to lower ride height, the stock spring rate with the Bilstein HD's might be the best combination of factory ride but with a bit better body control.

Sweet, there you go then.  I was assuming that based on his 125# stock number, but if his stockers were in fact rated 220#, 250# isn't a big deal.  Good call.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Swifts get good reviews from the NABISCO crowd too, but we don't have options from Bilstein for dampeners; Konis are what we tend to run/recommend, or Tokico.

Koni was the OEM and has a lot of upgrade options for the porsche, I also believe Koni was the OEM on the Evo 8's(non MR's). Nothing wrong with koni's.

[S204STi]

Koni was the OEM and has a lot of upgrade options for the porsche, I also believe Koni was the OEM on the Evo 8's(non MR's). Nothing wrong with koni's.

Absolutely.  I saved my stockers to install Koni inserts sometime next year.  Also considering the FEAL inserts.

[Rupert]

Good discussion, few points I neglected to mention.

There was a handling package, M030, for later 944s, and you can buy all the parts, but they are mega bucks, and I do care about costs. Spring rates for that were something like 200F and 175R, but I don't know about the dampers.

Looks like the stock rate was something like 160 lbs F and 126 lbs R.

Rear springs are torsion bars, which require some height adjusting, so rear ride height isn't an issue.

Most of the springs I'm seeing are 200 lbs minimum, and I haven't seen a kit with the Bilsteins anywhere, so professional guidance is meh. Porsche forums are full of people claiming 400 lb spring rates are what you want, so that's not much of an option for advice, IMO. Kits are pretty much Konis, and that's expensive. Other option that I will take advantage of is the guy doing the work, who has about a million years experience modifying Porsches.

The Bilstein fronts are inserts, and they're relatively cheap.

Lindsey Racing has all this stuff for pretty cheap compared to Pelican and Paragon, so that's where I'm getting it (unless mechanic man has a cheaper source).

Bushings, yeah... A lot of people insist it's absolutely necessary, but I'm not really convinced. I've never heard this from any of my various mechanics, and it seems like if the bushings are in bad enough shape that you would notice a difference by replacing them, then they probably also have play or another obvious issue that would require their replacement. I would just use the OE rubber, anyway, since I hear other kinds squeak (and the ones that don't are $$$).

I am also having the front passenger control arm replaced, because the ball joint is dangerously loose and it's not easily rebuildable. I had intended to do a lot of the work on the suspension myself, up to the rear torsion bars, which require dropping the whole suspension to change and adjust. Since I don't want to do the control arm myself, and I don't want to do the torsion bars myself, I sort of figure that the guy should just do the whole thing, since he'll be in there, anyway.

[Rupert]

Also, some decent info in table form here: http://www.clarks-garage.com/ > Garage Shop Manual > Brakes and Suspension > Suspension Upgrades.

They say 220 lb springs are good for street, but I'm not so sure.

[Soup DeVille]

Also, some decent info in table form here: http://www.clarks-garage.com/ > Garage Shop Manual > Brakes and Suspension > Suspension Upgrades.

They say 220 lb springs are good for street, but I'm not so sure.

That's not out of the acceptable range. 400s would be pushing it for anything you want to drive on anything but billiard table smooth roads.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Also, some decent info in table form here: http://www.clarks-garage.com/ > Garage Shop Manual > Brakes and Suspension > Suspension Upgrades.

They say 220 lb springs are good for street, but I'm not so sure.

It looks like pelican had a set of 220's at stock ride height, that doesn't seem to be too much stiffer than what came in the car. I don't think you would want to go higher than that for an all around setup.

[Rupert]

I want a pretty minor stiffness change, all things considered. Lindsey has 200 lb springs and the appropriate diameter t-bars, so that's the frontrunner at the moment.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I want a pretty minor stiffness change, all things considered. Lindsey has 200 lb springs and the appropriate diameter t-bars, so that's the frontrunner at the moment.

Well that sounds like what you want then, anything higher and you would get more stress and shudder from the chassis. Something that is pointless on a street driven car.

[Eye of the Tiger]

It shall depend greatly on other plans for the car. If we are putting a 2JZ-GTE under the hood, and a Ford 9-inch solid axle out back, then slight adjustments to suspension may be appropriate.

[S204STi]

I want a pretty minor stiffness change, all things considered. Lindsey has 200 lb springs and the appropriate diameter t-bars, so that's the frontrunner at the moment.

I found there to be a pronounced change going from stock to STI springs, which are in the 240#/200# range f/r.  I think you'll be good on 200.  I also suspect we have a similar modification philosophy, which is to do nothing which ruins the driveability of a car.

[Byteme]

I'd stick with stock springs, bushings and the like and go with Bilstein heavy duty shocks.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I am putting 201# springs on the back of the Accent for off roading and towing. You have to beat that number, or else pussy.

[Rupert]

I talked to my guy, and he thought it was a bad idea to bother with springs, so bother with springs I will not. Sway bars, maybe, but not now. Gonna get the parts, and then gonna get them put on, and then profit!

[Eye of the Tiger]

I talked to my guy, and he thought it was a bad idea to bother with springs, so bother with springs I will not. Sway bars, maybe, but not now. Gonna get the parts, and then gonna get them put on, and then profit!

Your guy doesn't know everything. Do what you want.

[Rupert]

He knows more than any of us!

I also realized that I don't have any idea how much of a change the shocks will make. Better to be incremental about it than all-in-and-hope-it's-right.

[MrH]

I talked to my guy, and he thought it was a bad idea to bother with springs, so bother with springs I will not. Sway bars, maybe, but not now. Gonna get the parts, and then gonna get them put on, and then profit!

....wut

[FlatBlackCaddy]

....wut

I think that's fine, the shocks will stiffen up the movements of even the stock spring rates. For a street driven car stiffer springs will just limit suspension travel.

[Soup DeVille]

....wut

A lot of cars are underdamped from the factory.