The 2015 F150

[Rupert]

Maybe it's different where you are, but around here I can think of two gas stations in the city that I've been to that has Diesel. It'd be a huge pain in the ass to find Diesel around here.

Then again, I had a buddy who needed 94 Octane gas for his Legacy GT after cranking the boost and he DD'd the thing. He seemed to get by okay...except the one day he called me to see if I knew any stations around where he was that had 94 Octane gas.

I live in the land of rednecks and trucks; therefore there is a lot of diesel. And of course, if there were more diesel cars, there would be more diesel stations.

[giant_mtb]

Plenty o' diesel around here, too. Not too many stations without it, really. Hard to find race gas around here, though.

[SVT666]

I wouldn't buy an F-150 just because of the aluminum.  I would be fucking scared to get a dent in it. 

[Onslaught]

Maybe this will make aluminium repair a little better and cheaper. More than 3/4 million F-150's sold last year so assuming that sales figure doesn't change, that's hell of a lot more aluminium cars on the road than ever before

No, you can't "make it better" and you sure as hell can't make it cheaper. I charge way more for fixing something made out of aluminum. It's far more difficult and takes more skill and time too. You can't just come up with magic ways of changing that.
And it's true more cars are using it. And more cars are totaled now then in the past that could've been fixed because of the different metals used now. And all the air bags going off.

[MrH]

People buying $45k trucks have full insurance coverage. If it ends up truly being more expensive to fix, the insurance rates will reflect that.

There are quite a few cars running around with aluminum parts though, and a lot more are coming. The world will adapt just fine.

[Mustangfan2003]

People buying $45k trucks have full insurance coverage. If it ends up truly being more expensive to fix, the insurance rates will reflect that.

There are quite a few cars running around with aluminum parts though, and a lot more are coming. The world will adapt just fine.

I'm sure Ford and everyone else is looking at this for every vehicle they make.  Don't blame Ford blame CAFE. 

[afty]

Ford claims that the new F150 will not cost any more to insure (heard this on the Autoblog podcast).

[GoCougs]

People buying $45k trucks have full insurance coverage. If it ends up truly being more expensive to fix, the insurance rates will reflect that.

There are quite a few cars running around with aluminum parts though, and a lot more are coming. The world will adapt just fine.

Plus, cost to repair damage is only a small portion of what constitutes a car insurance premium - medical bills, fighting lawsuits and paying out settlements are likely much more prominent. If there is an insurance premium bump, it will likely be inconsequential if not small.

[280Z Turbo]

If body shops got their way, we'd still be driving around in ladder frame cars with giant 5 mph chrome bumpers.

[Byteme]

No, you can't "make it better" and you sure as hell can't make it cheaper. I charge way more for fixing something made out of aluminum. It's far more difficult and takes more skill and time too. You can't just come up with magic ways of changing that.
And it's true more cars are using it. And more cars are totaled now then in the past that could've been fixed because of the different metals used now. And all the air bags going off.

I'm guessing the body panels are aluminum and the frame is still steel, probably high strength mainly.  Seems like the labor component of replacing an aluminum bolt on panel would be about the same as for a steel one with the mataerial cost being higher for aluminum.  Bend the one piece cab box (or whatever it's actually called) and I bet the cost will be higher that straightening a steel one though. 

Body shops will also make a few more bucks recycling the damaged aluminum panels since the scrap value of aluminum is higher than steel.

[Mustangfan2003]

Bloomberg has an article about body repair

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-21/ford-s-aluminum-f-150-poised-to-test-repair-shops-mettle.html

[GoCougs]

I'm guessing the body panels are aluminum and the frame is still steel, probably high strength mainly.  Seems like the labor component of replacing an aluminum bolt on panel would be about the same as for a steel one with the mataerial cost being higher for aluminum.  Bend the one piece cab box (or whatever it's actually called) and I bet the cost will be higher that straightening a steel one though. 

Body shops will also make a few more bucks recycling the damaged aluminum panels since the scrap value of aluminum is higher than steel.

On a truck though, my hunch is there is a lot more repair of panels vs. replacing them, esp. the bed.

[MX793]

Aluminum is springier than steel.  It flexes a stretches more before it permanently deforms.  This makes it more difficult to repair when dented.  It's also weaker than steel, so it's more likely to crack when you are trying to work a dent out of it.

[veeman]

40 years from now, when Ford will start making the F-150 mostly out of carbon fiber, this conversation will repeat itself.

[Soup DeVille]

40 years from now, when Ford will start making the F-150 mostly out of carbon fiber, this conversation will repeat itself.

More likely in ten years when they go back to steel.

[Onslaught]

There are quite a few cars running around with aluminum parts though, and a lot more are coming. The world will adapt just fine.

Aluminum parts have been used in high end cars for a long time. It's one of the reasons they cost so much more to repair. And a 50K + car is worth enough to fix but a 20K Toyota won't be. Cars are becoming more disposable.

I'm sure Ford and everyone else is looking at this for every vehicle they make.  Don't blame Ford blame CAFE. 

I don't really "blame" anyone. Cars are much safer and more efficient now then in the past. The one downside is they're becoming too expensive to fix unless it's just a small hit.

If body shops got their way, we'd still be driving around in ladder frame cars with giant 5 mph chrome bumpers.

Not this guy. I hate cars like that and can't fucking stand working on trucks. I'll take unibody cars all day any day. The only problem is a modern unibody car is nothing like one from 8 years ago.

I'm guessing the body panels are aluminum and the frame is still steel, probably high strength mainly.  Seems like the labor component of replacing an aluminum bolt on panel would be about the same as for a steel one with the mataerial cost being higher for aluminum.  Bend the one piece cab box (or whatever it's actually called) and I bet the cost will be higher that straightening a steel one though. 

Body shops will also make a few more bucks recycling the damaged aluminum panels since the scrap value of aluminum is higher than steel.

I have no idea how much aluminum this thing will have in it or where. I doubt they would be dumb enough to make the bed out of it. It will probably be sheet metal parts and things like that. But now rather then fixing one you'll be replacing them and that could cost you more depending on the hit.

40 years from now, when Ford will start making the F-150 mostly out of carbon fiber, this conversation will repeat itself.

Things have changed more in the auto body repair side then ever before. It's a bigger jump from the old ladder frames to unibody back when my grandfather was doing bodywork. Cars are very different now and it's going to cost you much more to have something repaired then it did in the past.

[MX793]

Oh, and my Mustang has an aluminum hood.  IIRC, the 350Z was using aluminum for the hood and select other body panels way back when it came out 10 years ago.  Neither are/were particularly expensive cars.

[Onslaught]

I'm not against cars getting lighter and better. I'm just pointing out that it will cost you more to get you car fixed in the future. He'll it's going to cost me more just to fix the damn things. I have a dent puller made for regular sheet metal that cost be about $800 years and years ago. The last time I priced one of these things that will do the same job but work on aluminum it cost over $5000.00. And seeing that I'm the guy in the shop who will be getting these damn new aluminum cars I'm not thrilled about having to blow money like that just to fix them.

There has been huge changes in the way modern cars must be repaired. I just put in two doors, quarter, rocker and center post on a new Camry last month. In the past I could've done that job for around 40 hours body labor or so and had it out in two days. The reason being that I wouldn't have had to use all the metal in the parts because I had the freedom to section in panels where they had been damaged. Basically leaving the undamaged parts still on the car. But now with all the high strength steel and other metals used in cars today I had to put the whole panel in. This means I had to cut parts like the roof off the car that had no damage at all just to get to the inside of the damaged areas and remove the whole section out. You NEVER had to do idiotic things like this in the past. My part of the repair was 86 hours and it took me fucking 4 days to fix that car. Never in my life would I think that they could make repairing a car so overcomplicated and idiotic.

And the only reason the car didn't total was because it only had 300 miles on it. Sure a BMW 7 series or Jag can take a $10K+ hit and be fixable but a Honda Civic?

It's even getting to the point that you can't use body filler on some parts of cars. Some of the new Jags have these new kinds of sensors for the airbags inside the doors. Now they use the change in air pressure when the door is hit to fire off the side airbags. So unless it's a little scratch or something you can't repair any damage to one of the doors. So if a shopping cars hits your car in the door and you take it in to be fixed you'll be buying a brand new door. And they say these sensors will be making their way to normal cars in the future.

It's not a matter of IF cars will become more disposable because it's already happening. I total lots of cars today that just 7 years ago I could fix without any problems. It's not hurting me all that much but it's one of the disadvantages of the new cars we have.

[Onslaught]

Oh, and my Mustang has an aluminum hood.  IIRC, the 350Z was using aluminum for the hood and select other body panels way back when it came out 10 years ago.  Neither are/were particularly expensive cars.

Lots of cars have had aluminum hoods. The miata has an aluminum hood as so did the RX-8 and RX-7. And if it's not a small dent the the cars got a brand new hood.  But replacing a bolt on hood is way different then welded on parts of the car. That's a whole different ball game.

[Onslaught]

I forgot to add this one. The modern F-150 in dealers right now have some dumb things about them too. You see the cab is made of different kinds of metals. And if the frame gets bent a little according to Fords repair procedures you must remove both the bed and cab from the truck frame before you can pull the frame back around. Apparently the different metals don't react all the same to the stress of being pulled. Not sure WTF happens to them when the damn thing gets hit and bent in the fucking accident. So to fix a truck by the book from ford you must take the whole truck apart, pull the frame and then put it back together again. Yeah, tell that to All State insurance and see what they say.

[GoCougs]

Aluminum is springier than steel.  It flexes a stretches more before it permanently deforms.  This makes it more difficult to repair when dented.  It's also weaker than steel, so it's more likely to crack when you are trying to work a dent out of it.

Not so sure about that. It depends on alloys. One thing for sure, I've never seen or heard of a repair like this with a steel fender: Huge dent and creases to 100% smooth on an unpainted 1/4 panel - Kirkham University Aluminum Fender Dent Repair.

[MrH]

I get it, you work with it every day so this is the stuff you see.  But ultimately, 2 extra days in the body shop after a bad accident is a small price to pay for all the advantages of moving to these new materials.

As to the different metals reacting differently, it's done for crash worthiness and weight.  It's designed to absorb energy in an impact.  It isn't designed to be easy to stretch back out after an accident.

[GoCougs]

More likely in ten years when they go back to steel.

I predict unit body trucks before carbon fiber + BoF trucks (the latter would be a ginormous anachronistic lol).

Not a fan of carbon fiber for consumer goods (car, bike, etc.). The marginal utility of weight savings vs. AL (say 10% at most) isn't worth the cost. There's so much that can be done with power train, design, and even just consumer tastes (as I stated earlier, who needs a 350 hp, 6,000 lb, 4WD battle wagon?) For an industrial good (i.e., longer life, more use) like a 787 the cost of carbon fiber will pay off.

I have high hopes material science will displace carbon fiber relatively soon. It's simply too costly and too labor intensive to deployed en masse. Some sort of injection molded material - ceramic? Polymers? Some sort of combo of all of the above?

[GoCougs]

I get it, you work with it every day so this is the stuff you see.  But ultimately, 2 extra days in the body shop after a bad accident is a small price to pay for all the advantages of moving to these new materials.

As to the different metals reacting differently, it's done for crash worthiness and weight.  It's designed to absorb energy in an impact.  It isn't designed to be easy to stretch back out after an accident.

Meh, sure there may be hiccups but in general the auto repair industry has adjusted just fine to disruptive changes in auto tech - computers, sensors, unit body chassis, fuel injection, forced induction, etc. Aluminum will be no different.

[Onslaught]

Not so sure about that. It depends on alloys. One thing for sure, I've never seen or heard of a repair like this with a steel fender: Huge dent and creases to 100% smooth on an unpainted 1/4 panel - Kirkham University Aluminum Fender Dent Repair.

An average bogyman couldn't do that. And one who could would charge you a fucking arm and a leg to do it. And the car he's working on it would be worth it. On a normal car it wouldn't be. I unfortunately can do stuff like that so I'm the one she gets that stuff.

Also, he's working on a curved area. That's a little easier then a pure flat panel or one with angles in it. Not that any of that is "easy" in the first place. That's why what he just did would set you back big time.

[Onslaught]

Meh, sure there may be hiccups but in general the auto repair industry has adjusted just fine to disruptive changes in auto tech - computers, sensors, unit body chassis, fuel injection, forced induction, etc. Aluminum will be no different.

This is a little bit different. You can't repair high strength steel. That's the one thing that makes it a little different then the stuff you listed from the past. If it's bent it must be replaced and that's that. It can not be repaired and still be safe.  So the cost of repairing a normal car is going to go up.

I'm not saying you can't repair cars, I do it ever day. I'm just saying that it will cost much more.

[3.0L V6]

This is a little bit different. You can't repair high strength steel. That's the one thing that makes it a little different then the stuff you listed from the past. If it's bent it must be replaced and that's that. It can not be repaired and still be safe.  So the cost of repairing a normal car is going to go up.

I'm not saying you can't repair cars, I do it ever day. I'm just saying that it will cost much more.

Vehicles are totaled off pretty regularly these days. It's a small price to pay for the massive decrease in injury claims that safer vehicles deliver. The cost of a vehicle relative to medical claims is small.

[MX793]

Not so sure about that. It depends on alloys. One thing for sure, I've never seen or heard of a repair like this with a steel fender: Huge dent and creases to 100% smooth on an unpainted 1/4 panel - Kirkham University Aluminum Fender Dent Repair.

If you torch annealed a steel fender that was damaged like that, you could probably pull a dent like that out as well.  But it's a different game when your car is actually painted versus that unpainted aluminum kit car body.  You don't take a torch directly to a painted panel, you need to strip all of the paint off first.

Smaller repairs, like paintless dent removal (for door dings and hail damage) is more difficult with most aluminum alloys commonly used for automotive purposes (2000 or 6000 series).

[Soup DeVille]

Oh, and my Mustang has an aluminum hood.  IIRC, the 350Z was using aluminum for the hood and select other body panels way back when it came out 10 years ago.  Neither are/were particularly expensive cars.

Hoods are easy to replace, and aren't structural.

And you could get aluminum hoods on '79 devilles in California. If you come across one ever, let me know.

[Onslaught]

Vehicles are totaled off pretty regularly these days. It's a small price to pay for the massive decrease in injury claims that safer vehicles deliver. The cost of a vehicle relative to medical claims is small.

I never argued that it wasn't a good thing that cars are getting safer. I just said cars are getting more expensive to fix if they even fix them. And this F-150 will cost more to fix.