Corvette project car

[GoCougs]

GM aren't clever bastards now. They definitely weren't clever bastards half a century ago

Not so sure about that - the Volt, C7, ZL1 and 6.2L Silverado are pretty clever...

[hotrodalex]

Not so sure about that - the Volt, C7, ZL1 and 6.2L Silverado are pretty clever...

You're a fool if you think muscle car suspensions were clever, though.

Clever could be used to describe some of the Trans Am racers who modified the cars to get around the issues, but not the stock set ups.

[280Z Turbo]

The Corvette wasn't a muscle car. It was a sports car.

[FoMoJo]

The Corvette wasn't a muscle car. It was a sports car.

It's an old argument but anything that went quick in a straight line was considered a muscle car.

[MX793]

It's an old argument but anything that went quick in a straight line was considered a muscle car.

Muscle cars are intermediate-sized vehicles.  The Corvette is not a muscle car.  Camaros and Mustangs are not muscle cars.  Torinos, GTOs, Chevelles, 442s, Gran Sports, Chargers, and Road Runners were muscle cars.

[Soup DeVille]

Muscle cars are intermediate-sized vehicles.  The Corvette is not a muscle car.  Camaros and Mustangs are not muscle cars.  Torinos, GTOs, Chevelles, 442s, Gran Sports, Chargers, and Road Runners were muscle cars.

Muscle cars were also generally big engine versions of normal boring intermediate sized cars, not something that was designed from the start to go fast. Yes, there are exceptions, and yes it's all relative; but no, a Corvette doesn't fit

[FoMoJo]

Muscle cars are intermediate-sized vehicles.  The Corvette is not a muscle car.  Camaros and Mustangs are not muscle cars.  Torinos, GTOs, Chevelles, 442s, Gran Sports, Chargers, and Road Runners were muscle cars.

It's an old argument.   Initially, when the mid-sizes first arrived and they started sticking big-blocks into them, they defined the muscle-car segment.  Then they started sticking big-blocks into anything they could, including sports cars and pony cars.  Many consider the 427 Cobra a muscle car.

[FoMoJo]

Muscle cars were also generally big engine versions of normal boring intermediate sized cars, not something that was designed from the start to go fast. Yes, there are exceptions, and yes it's all relative; but no, a Corvette doesn't fit

Of course it does...if it had a big-block.  They went fast in a straight line and didn't handle well.

[Soup DeVille]

It's an old argument.   Initially, when the mid-sizes first arrived and they started sticking big-blocks into them, they defined the muscle-car segment.  Then they started sticking big-blocks into anything they could, including sports cars and pony cars.  Many consider the 427 Cobra a muscle car.

And there are people who order their steaks well done and cover them with A1 sauce; but generally speaking, these are not people with opinions that matter.

[FoMoJo]

And there are people who order their steaks well done and cover them with A1 sauce; but generally speaking, these are not people with opinions that matter.

As a '63 Corvette with a 327 was not considered, by most, a muscle car, the discussion isn't relevant here.  It's closer to the sports car definition.

[hotrodalex]

Don't get this forum going on sports cars.

Muscle car, pony car, Corvette car, whatever. Argue all you want about semantics, but 99% of domestic cars from the 60's did not have "clever" suspensions.

[SVT32V]

Don't get this forum going on sports cars.

Muscle car, pony car, Corvette car, whatever. Argue all you want about semantics, but 99% of domestic cars from the 60's did not have "clever" suspensions.

Most cars from everywhere on the planet in the 60's didn't have clever suspensions.

[GoCougs]

You're a fool if you think muscle car suspensions were clever, though.

Clever could be used to describe some of the Trans Am racers who modified the cars to get around the issues, but not the stock set ups.

Look, an expert . Mopar's torsion bar front suspension was pretty clever and apropos to this thread even the now ~$50MM Ferrari 250GTO of 1963 didn't have IRS.

[GoCougs]

Of course it does...if it had a big-block.  They went fast in a straight line and didn't handle well.

Big block Corvettes handled handled quite well for day, esp. the C3; pretty much better than most anything other than the very rare handling-centric homologation-type cars (Z/28, AAR 'Cuda, etc.).

[hotrodalex]

Look, an expert . Mopar's torsion bar front suspension was pretty clever and apropos to this thread even the now ~$50MM Ferrari 250GTO of 1963 didn't have IRS.

I never claimed there weren't any clever things (see 99% quote from a few posts back), so just stop now.

There are improvements to be made, the designs are far from perfect. See the change from the C2 bracket to the C3 bracket as proof.

[Soup DeVille]

The fact is that a ( if not the) major component that the suspension was designed around is already long gone and never going to be replaced- unless somebody knows where they can get bias ply performance tires in modern tread compounds.

That setup is meant to respond to body roll by increasing camber- which isn't a bad thing, but because of the way tall profile bias ply tires work, it does this way too much for a more modern tire. Lowering the inner mount of the strut I'd going to correct some of that.

How much is too much? How much is not enough; well shit boss, that's above my pay grade.

[GoCougs]

I never claimed there weren't any clever things (see 99% quote from a few posts back), so just stop now.

There are improvements to be made, the designs are far from perfect. See the change from the C2 bracket to the C3 bracket as proof.

Stop? I'm just getting started. Mopar built WAY more than 1% of the muscle/performance cars of the era.

The improvements are enabled via better/different tire technology just as was the case in the '30s with the move to pneumatic tires. If the industry were still riding on that older tire tech there will be little if any improvement so the equivalency to today (not clever, lots of "improvements" now available) doesn't quite hold. They were as clever as they could be, just as automakers of today are.

[hotrodalex]

K no one cares

[Soup DeVille]

We've learned lots more than that about handling in the last fifty years. In the early sixties, it was still being debated whether or not grip had anything at all to do with tire size- devotees of the Newtonian model of friction being independent of surface area still held court for the most part.

More to the point though, our definition of what constitutes good handling has changed as well- and anybody who's watched old race footage of cars exhibiting extreme understeer while negotiating a turn will agree.

It's not like this is an obscure car that nobody's ever fiddled with before either. People have been making these faster and better handling successfully for decades now.

[MrH]

Stop? I'm just getting started. Mopar built WAY more than 1% of the muscle/performance cars of the era.

The improvements are enabled via better/different tire technology just as was the case in the '30s with the move to pneumatic tires. If the industry were still riding on that older tire tech there will be little if any improvement so the equivalency to today (not clever, lots of "improvements" now available) doesn't quite hold. They were as clever as they could be, just as automakers of today are.

Yes, they were as clever as they could be.  Which isn't clever at all by today's standards.  And tires did improve.  Things have progressed drastically.  No, super expensive Ferraris at the time didn't have IRS.  But hey, they all do now.  That's what we're comparing.  Then vs. now, not brands back then.

[Secret Chimp]

I like how you're hassling over new vs old while I'm slapping shit on a station wagon from the same era and nobody cares. There aren't any old suspension ideas that are better than new ones (ignoring cost cutters like beam axles). Buy newer = drives better.

[Soup DeVille]

I like how you're hassling over new vs old while I'm slapping shit on a station wagon from the same era and nobody cares. There aren't any old suspension ideas that are better than new ones (ignoring cost cutters like beam axles). Buy newer = drives better.

OK then. You're going to fuck up the brake balance in that beast by putting modern brakes on one end.

Happy now?

[GoCougs]

Pretty much as I keep saying, they were clever back then, as much as they could be.

[Secret Chimp]

OK then. You're going to fuck up the brake balance in that beast by putting modern brakes on one end.

Happy now?

No - prop valve. Cut out this weak bitchsauce.

[Soup DeVille]

No - prop valve. Cut out this weak bitchsauce.

Your hacksaw and duct tape fabricated brackets are going to fail and cause you to plow into a bus full of young ladies on their way to the Nina Hartley School of Cinematic Arts and Amateur Gynecology Institute.

[GoCougs]

Jesus, she's gotta be nearing 60 by now...

[Soup DeVille]

Jesus, she's gotta be nearing 60 by now...

Which is why she gave up the "acting" gigs.

[hotrodalex]

No - prop valve. Cut out this weak bitchsauce.

Those are normally used to cut power to the rear, which would only magnify the problem.

[280Z Turbo]

Took the Corvette down the road for the first time in 2 years.

I think the Corvette has the 4.56 or 4.11 with a close ratio trans. It turns 3000 rpm at around 55 mph and around 4000 at 70 mph. Insanely high rpms for an old V8, but man it is fun to bang off those shifts.

The brakes are pretty scary. Inconsistent pedal feel with lockup coming very easily. I think they need to be bled and readjusted. If they still scare the shit out of me, I'll look into the disc brake swap for the front. Pedal effort is heavy, but that's OK.

The motor is absolutely gutless. It starts sputtering upon heavy acceleration and has nothing above 3000 rpm. I think the carb needs to be pulled apart and cleaned. Also it has old gas in it too.

Also, it has the old 2nd gear "pop-out" issue if you're not under acceleration. It's a known issue with these, but we'll tackle it this winter.

[MX793]

Took the Corvette down the road for the first time in 2 years.

I think the Corvette has the 4.56 or 4.11 with a close ratio trans. It turns 3000 rpm at around 55 mph and around 4000 at 70 mph. Insanely high rpms for an old V8, but man it is fun to bang off those shifts.

The brakes are pretty scary. Inconsistent pedal feel with lockup coming very easily. I think they need to be bled and readjusted. If they still scare the shit out of me, I'll look into the disc brake swap for the front. Pedal effort is heavy, but that's OK.

The motor is absolutely gutless. It starts sputtering upon heavy acceleration and has nothing above 3000 rpm. I think the carb needs to be pulled apart and cleaned. Also it has old gas in it too.

Also, it has the old 2nd gear "pop-out" issue if you're not under acceleration. It's a known issue with these, but we'll tackle it this winter.

You may also want to clean out the distributor and make sure the points are clean.  It may simply be getting weak spark in addition to dud gas or a gummed-up carb.