Total US market up 5% YTD... ATS sales down 21%...

[CALL_911]

The original CTS has the distinction of being the only domestic car (not truck) that isn't a Corvette/Viper that doesn't scream "trailer trash" or "BHPH" a decade after its inception

[MX793]

When the CTS came out, it was a lot cheaper than the German cars it was priced like. I wouldnt call Cadillac in 2003 a premium brand either. Hell, I wouldn't call Cadillac or Infiniti premium brands now, at least not on the level of the Germans or Jaguar.

And in any case, chasing pedigree/prestige is kind of a fools errand. MB/BMW's reputation is 40 years strong in the US. Audi's is about 20. Caddy was destroying theirs over that time. So they can't fight on the same playing fields as the Germans, they will always be considered also-rans. Better to find a niche like Chrysler did, and milk the hell out of that. I think there are a lot of Americans who want a luxury car with a name rather than an acronym, and as the 300 showed, a car that makes a statement and is built to American tastes, rather than some adapted Euro cab world car something or other. Like I said before... Lexus' biggest sellers are the cars they made that deviated from the Germans and catered to Americans (ES/RX)... Caddy's comeback kid would be no different. They just need to figure out what the hell it will be.

Cadillac was certainly a premium brand, though not at the same tier as the Germans.  I would have put them somewhere in the vicinity of Acura and Infiniti (and Saab).  The CTS, when it first came out, was only slightly less than the other cars in class (3-series, A4, C-class...), very similarly priced to the G35 and IS.  Size-wise, it was a bit bigger than the 3/A4/C, closer to the 5/A6/E.  But unlike those in the next class up, it did not offer a V8 (and when it did, it was only in the hi-po -V model).  It was squarely a 3-series class competitor, with the slightly larger STS stepping in to fight with the next larger tier.  The Chrysler 300 was not built to compete against the 3 series and the like.  It was bigger than even the 5/A6/E class.  It was really more a Mercury Grand Marquis or Buick Lucerne competitor.  A full-size sedan with near luxury appointments.  And compared to the others in that size class, it was worlds better than the Mercury or Buick and half the price of a full-size Euro car (and well less than a Town Car or DTS, for that matter).  It pretty much owned the segment.

Arguably, the Escalade has been Caddy's comeback kid.  The Europeans offer nothing that directly competes.  The woefully outdated Lincoln Navigator is really the only other vehicle in that segment.  But you can't build a brand around a big-ass SUV, especially with fuel prices rising.  Caddy needs to fatten their portfolio.  They need conquest sales.  They need people to not snicker when they are mentioned in the same sentence as BMW and Mercedes.  They either need to build a better ES than Lexus (which would have them stepping on Buick's toes, as that's the segment the Lacrosse fights in), or they need to step up and play in the same sandbox as the 3-series, C class, and A4.  GM's brand hierarchy kind of forces the latter, since they have Buick trying to carve a niche in the lower end of the entry-lux segment, duking it out with the Lexus ESs and Acura ILXs, TSXs, and TLXs.  Caddy has to be either sportier or more upmarket (or both, really) than Buick.  They can't be just another near/entry-lux marque, they have to be a full-blown premium/luxury marque.

[hotrodalex]

And they need to not sway from that.

[12,000 RPM]

The thing is, the conventional luxury channels are either at capacity or dwindling. An S-class fighter would be a complete waste of time- nobody would buy it out of the US, and S/7 sales in the US are way down from their peaks. We already see Caddy's 3/5 fighter didn't take, no reason why their 7 fighter would. They have to try something else. They can be a full blown luxury marque without playing the Germans' game.... they did it before

[hotrodalex]

So what are they supposed to do? Make a '59 retro model? That'll sell like hotcakes...

[12,000 RPM]

Im not an automotive brand manager, Im just an armchair quarterback. I dont know what they should do but I do know what they are doing isn't working. This German sausage fighting deal is about 10-15 yrs too late. Cadillac isn't as strong a brand as the Germans but its still worth something.

[280Z Turbo]

Remember the Ciel?



Maybe they should come out with a V8 powered land yacht called the Deville. Give it tail fins and RWD. Bring back the 1950's and 1960's elegance. The big Chrysler cars are kind of retro, maybe it would work for Cadillac.

[SVT666]

Cadillac needs to build "lifestyle" cars.  Build a better looking BMW 6 series at 2/3 the cost. Build cars that people WANT to be seen in.  They need to have distinct styling that may be polarizing.  Build cars people just have to have...like the Ciel.

[2o6]

Retro is a terrible way to look. Retro is a way of hiding a products flaws, IMO.


Cadillac needs avant-grade appeal. The XTS needed to be this flamboyantly styled FWD thing that makes you notice it. 


That's what Cadillac is missing; the 2003 CTS was such a head turner for it's day - the current lineup is stylistically too tame for a luxury make. High end makes should throw caution to the wind, have your hand on the pulse of fashion. Arguably, the 2003 CTS has that impact.


The current crop does not.

[CALL_911]

Retro is a terrible way to look. Retro is a way of hiding a products flaws, IMO.


Cadillac needs avant-grade appeal. The XTS needed to be this flamboyantly styled FWD thing that makes you notice it. 


That's what Cadillac is missing; the 2003 CTS was such a head turner for it's day - the current lineup is stylistically too tame for a luxury make. High end makes should throw caution to the wind, have your hand on the pulse of fashion. Arguably, the 2003 CTS has that impact.


The current crop does not.

Agreed on all accounts

[12,000 RPM]

Exactly, you guys get what I'm saying

Lets face facts, the avg consumer doesnt give a shit about Brembo brakes or Ring times. They want a car that looks good in and out, has a nice UI, has decent performance and gets good gas mileage. The Germans have their pants down on styling- way too conservative/derivative. That's where Caddy need to strike. But they def failed with the ATS/CTS on that part IMO.

[hotrodalex]

But they can't just ditch the current direction completely. Gotta stick with something or they'll forever be that brand the exists but no one knows why.

[GoCougs]

Yes, sticking with a consistence theme/direction is vital.

Cadillac needs to looks to the first gen G35 and LS400 for inspiration. It can be done, it just needs guts and leadership. The ATS is good but it doesn't differentiate and it costs a bunch.

[Laconian]

GM can't price Cadillacs worth a damn. Some of their products are interesting, but 9 times out of 10, the pricing is just too ambitious. They are not BMW. They need to embrace their betahood and look at the 2nd tier luxury competitors for price cues.

[Lebowski]

IMO, Cadillac will never again be a remotely desirable brand (and hasn't been for decades). GM can't even make a desirable mainstreamer, you guys don't honestly think they can realistically revive Cadillac in this lifetime do you?

[GoCougs]

Sure if the ATS did away with the POS N/A 4 banger model, dropped price by 15-20% on all models, matched the tech (esp. dumping the 6sp AT), offered a true sport model (V6 w/MT) and debuted the ATS-V at the same time, things would have gone notably better.

Take the new CTS. The CTS TTV6 is getting huge reviews (which is no surprise - GM has been killing it with hi-po models lately - ZR1, ZL1, Z28, etc.). Thing is that is going to be a low volume seller.

The issue is both the LS400 and G35 were at the tale end of the Germans' era of mostly value-independent design and engineering. The Japanese were much much better at value engineering at this time and were simply able to offer a higher value product (who wants to pay more for a drop forged vs. stamped steel trunk hinge?). Those days are over for ze Germans. They're value engineering like everyone else now so you're not going to join them, let alone beat them, by offering an equivalent product at an equivalent price.

[2o6]

IMO, Cadillac will never again be a remotely desirable brand (and hasn't been for decades). GM can't even make a desirable mainstreamer, you guys don't honestly think they can realistically revive Cadillac in this lifetime do you?

GM's passenger car line is the most competitive it's ever been.


The Cruze, Sonic, Spark, and Impala all compete well in their segments. The only "bad" car is the Malibu, and bad is a relative term. It's still far nicer than the old car.




Also, cadillac interiors suck.

[12,000 RPM]

Sure if the ATS did away with the POS N/A 4 banger model, dropped price by 15-20% on all models, matched the tech (esp. dumping the 6sp AT), offered a true sport model (V6 w/MT) and debuted the ATS-V at the same time, things would have gone notably better.

Im not so sure. The existence of the 2.5 4 doesn't affect the other engines- i.e. the 2.0T would still be gutsy, but thrashy. Their pricing is what they can turn a profit on (though ultimately it's not proving to be what the market can bear). MT V6 and ATS-V will have a take rate about 3-4 significant figures on the right of the decimal hovering above zero, and contrary to what the internet claims, halo cars dont mean crap. ATS/CTS-V could have stood a chance if they had gone with some LTxs, but instead GM is choosing to not offer anything over the competition and go with turbocharging their mainstream engines.

We are all engineers and enthusiasts here so we place far more importance on specs and figures than the avg person. The avg buyer in this segment would gladly have traded "tuning the ATS on the Ring" for a sexy exterior, or adult sized back seat, or class beating fuel economy, or a working ICE interface etc. GM focused on all the wrong things, and now since they were banking on this platform to take them to the top they are stuck.

As cynical as this sounds, a swoopy hybrid A&S A7 clone priced in the 30s-40s built on one of their FWD platforms would have made more sense. It would have shown forward thinking, placed itself in a niche apart from the competition, and actually delivered on some of the things the average customer wants. Would have been a smaller gamble as well, while coming across as a bigger departure from GM and the industry status quo. Hell, a bigger, more powerful, more luxurious Volt would have been a better idea for the basis of the company's new trajectory. They need a real hail mary, not this run up the middle BS. The competition is just too damn strong for that.

[CALL_911]

Let's take a look at the SRX.

The first one was a dynamically solid car, got great reviews, was generally heralded as one of the best in its class. Supposedly, it didn't sell well because it looked too boxy (I always thought it was a looker). The second one is a gussied up Equinox, but it's stylish and inexpensive relative to its class (correct me if I'm wrong), and I'm pretty sure it has been quite successful.

Would anyone on this site take the 2nd gen over the 1st gen? Hell naw, but the public has spoken.

[CALL_911]

As much as it pains me to say it, cutting down the emphasis on high performance and increasing it on style and a competitive price would probably do wonders for the ATS' bottom line. Shame, as I've said myriad times, I irrationally absolutely love the ATS.

[12,000 RPM]

I would go as far as to say GM shouldn't have built the Alpha platform at all. It's not a bad platform, it's just the wrong platform for where the industry seems to be going. The Rustang just now caught up to the Camaro platform wise, so the Sigma can probably soldier on with tweaks (unless they decide to address the ridiculous shoulder line height/visibility issues). The ELR was ridiculously half assed, which is sad, because IMO it represents an avenue Caddy could be capitalizing on. The Volt is cool as hell, but it feels cheap outside of its powertrain, and was built on an existing platform instead of from the ground up.... GM could use Caddy as an opportunity to build their Delta/Epsilon FWD platforms to cut down weight and be more hybrid/electric friendly. Etc. Just a huge missed opportunity here.

CALL_911 nothing irrational about likign the ATS- it's a good car, aside from its faults. Pains me to say it but the industry is moving in a way that doesn't line up with enthusiasts on the grand scale.  Still though, there are plenty of great one-offs across the board, from the Ford ST hatches to the 911 and everything in between.

[Submariner]

As much as it pains me to say it, cutting down the emphasis on high performance and increasing it on style and a competitive price would probably do wonders for the ATS' bottom line. Shame, as I've said myriad times, I irrationally absolutely love the ATS.

I think it's a good looker, as is the CTS. 

The only Caddy I've recently spent any appreciable time in is the XTS, and I was underwhelmed to say the least.  My fiance and I went up to visit my parents in Vermont - took Amtrak and got picked up by a car service in Albany.  Everything about it, and I mean everything inside, felt cut rate.  However, what was most shocking was both the ride quality and ride noise - horrendous. 

By comparison, the 10 year old Town Car we took back floated over the road, and was dead quiet inside.  A terrible car for sure, but even with 150k on the clock, it was buttery smooth. 

How they could fuck the XTS up so badly, I'm not sure.  But I was deeply disappointed.

[Submariner]

Remember the Ciel?



Maybe they should come out with a V8 powered land yacht called the Deville. Give it tail fins and RWD. Bring back the 1950's and 1960's elegance. The big Chrysler cars are kind of retro, maybe it would work for Cadillac.

Jesus.  That is epic. 

[2o6]

I think it's a good looker, as is the CTS. 

The only Caddy I've recently spent any appreciable time in is the XTS, and I was underwhelmed to say the least.  My fiance and I went up to visit my parents in Vermont - took Amtrak and got picked up by a car service in Albany.  Everything about it, and I mean everything inside, felt cut rate.  However, what was most shocking was both the ride quality and ride noise - horrendous. 

By comparison, the 10 year old Town Car we took back floated over the road, and was dead quiet inside.  A terrible car for sure, but even with 150k on the clock, it was buttery smooth. 

How they could fuck the XTS up so badly, I'm not sure.  But I was deeply disappointed.

The Town Car rides like Jello. The XTS is far better.


Tr XTS is on par with modern Bmw cars.


It's just that modern BMW's don't feel that expensive inside.

[12,000 RPM]

BMWs never felt expensive inside, at least on the low end.

[hotrodalex]

Material quality is definitely a step up from normal cars. Design isn't super luxurious, but it's nice.

[MexicoCityM3]

BMWs never felt expensive inside, at least on the low end.

Only the 5 & up feel expensive. The E46 is better inside than the E90. IMO the F30 is also better than the E90.

[CALL_911]

The Town Car rides like Jello. The XTS is far better.


Tr XTS is on par with modern Bmw cars.


It's just that modern BMW's don't feel that expensive inside.

Okay, but an XTS should not ride like a BMW. It should ride as close to (or better than) a Lexus LS as possible

[68_427]

Are the Magnetic shocks standard on the XTS?

[2o6]

Okay, but an XTS should not ride like a BMW. It should ride as close to (or better than) a Lexus LS as possible

I don't agree. I think a slightly firmer than old Cadillac ride goes a long way to bringing in a younger clientele.

Only the 5 & up feel expensive. The E46 is better inside than the E90. IMO the F30 is also better than the E90.

I don't think the 5 series feels that expensive, either. BMW has been on a downtrend as far as interiors go for the past 10 years or so. The modern BMW's (3-series is the worst offender) is kinda cheap, honestly.

Material quality is definitely a step up from normal cars. Design isn't super luxurious, but it's nice.

Your BMW is, new BMW's aren't.