Total US market up 5% YTD... ATS sales down 21%...

[12,000 RPM]

Can we acknowledge the failure yet?

To put it in context, 3 series is up 17%, IS is up like 100%

I still don't think this was the space GM should have sought to occupy. I said last year they needed to make their own segment, if possible... Mercedes beat them to the punch and are cashing in big time. What a shame.

[68_427]

I think GM took the E46 a bit too seriously.  Sure it's great the car drives like the E46, but it shouldn't have been the size of the E46 considering the rest of the class gets larger with each new generation.  The ATS is just too small to compete.

[hotrodalex]

Seems like it needs a bit more powwaaarrrrr too.

[SVT666]

I think GM took the E46 a bit too seriously.  Sure it's great the car drives like the E46, but it shouldn't have been the size of the E46 considering the rest of the class gets larger with each new generation.  The ATS is just too small to compete.

The ATS and the current 3 series are nearly identical in every dimension.

[68_427]

You're right.  I should have specified the interior packaging.  I think that is a big issue with the ATS.

[12,000 RPM]

ATS back seat is lacking. That plus CUE can't be good. 2.0T is thrashy and 3.6 is OK but average for the class. Dynamics? 3 is behind, but a couple gs in suspension and brakes and the playing field is level again. Plus I think they are priced the same. I called it like 3 yrs ago....

[SVT666]

ATS would appeal to me if it had a manual with the V6 and didn't have CUE.  Since neither of those is reality, I would rather get the 328i.

[CALL_911]

As much as I saw it coming, it still makes me sad. The ATS is a car I really, really like against my better judgment. It's engine was thrashy and didn't feel as powerful as its numbers would suggest, it had a shitty gearbox, and I can't believe they're trying to compete with iDrive with CUE. However, the thing was a lot of fun to drive, powertrain aside. It handled really well and I quite liked its steering. I think it is a fantastic, fantastic looking car inside and out. I was definitely disappointed with the one I drove, but I still find myself liking the car. Whenever I see a V6 or a 2.0T ATS around, I can't help but turn my head. The single-exhaust 2.5L looks kind of dumpy, however.

[GoCougs]

It may not be a failure - depends on what Cadillac's target was, which probably isn't public knowledge.

I see one major issue is price - $43k base to get the V6 - the lesser models are plain and boring looking. The V6 looks great.

[12,000 RPM]

I dont find its design very appealing. The weirdest thing about it is its profile is pretty conventional and upright- i.e. no fast back or sloping roof- but it still has a small back seat, despite being the same size as the 3 series and with shorter engines.

I really think they could have had more success gussying up a Cruze or something, making a budget mini IMAJ or something. CLA's success is all style- it doesn't handle well, it's not very practical, it's not very upscale or well built.  Thats the angle GM should have played.

[MexicoCityM3]

Agree about the CLA. It's a POS en every way except looks.

[CALL_911]

Agree about the CLA. It's a POS en every way except looks.

IMO it looks like a Canal St. version of a real MB. It has the proportions of a hog, with tacked on details. It sort of reminds me of a Power Wheels car, actually. I really dislike the CLA.

[MX793]

I think Caddy is still at a disadvantage when it comes to brand image compared to Mercedes and BMW.  Cars like the 1 and 3 series, A3, or CLA appeal to young(-ish) professionals looking to give the impression they're doing well.  Thanks to the mediocre land yachts of the 80s and 90s that appealed largely to senior citizens (and Mafiosos), younger people today don't aspire to own Cadillacs as they do BMWs and Mercs.

[Lebowski]

Thats the angle GM should have played.

Cadillac doesn't have the MB brand appeal and never will.

[12,000 RPM]

Cadillac doesn't have the MB brand appeal and never will.

There was a time when Hyundai = POS.... look at them now

GM/Caddy can overcome, but they have to build good cars that people want. They might never be MB, but they can at least be  taken somewhat seriously. A store brand 3/5 series for name brand 3/5 prices isnt the answer

[2o6]

BMW also has umpteen permutations of the 3 series, and looking at my dealer's stock, a lot of them are 320 and 328 xi's. The buying experience is so much more tailor made versus the typical buying experience.



And besides, an ATS coupe and mid cycle refresh are coming very shortly.

[2o6]

IMO it looks like a Canal St. version of a real MB. It has the proportions of a hog, with tacked on details. It sort of reminds me of a Power Wheels car, actually. I really dislike the CLA.

God yes

[Laconian]

I say "meltybutt" and point whenever I see a CLA.

[CALL_911]

I say "meltybutt" and point whenever I see a CLA.

Funny thing is, the only part of the CLA that I don't totally (but still dislike) hate is the "meltybutt." Still looks cheap, however.

[cawimmer430]

CLA's success is all style- it doesn't handle well, it's not very practical, it's not very upscale or well built.

And you know this because...?

[hotrodalex]

I agree that's it's Cadillac's image, not the car, that is the cause of low sales. GM is gonna have to wait it out and continually work at changing the image before sales will increase.

[MX793]

There was a time when Hyundai = POS.... look at them now

GM/Caddy can overcome, but they have to build good cars that people want. They might never be MB, but they can at least be  taken somewhat seriously. A store brand 3/5 series for name brand 3/5 prices isnt the answer

I think Hyundai has/had less to overcome than Caddy.  Brand image isn't as big of a deal to overcome in mainstream brands as it is when you step into the premium and luxury segments where the badge on your car makes a real statement.  Caddy flushed their brand image down the toilet in the malaise era and did little to try to raise it back up until the turn of the century.  They went from being the kinds of cars that movie stars and musicians drove to lame, FWD boats driven by retirees (who remembered Caddy's heyday in the 50s and 60s and still held the brand in high esteem).  The demographic Caddy is now trying to win over, the upper-middle class, professional 30- and 40-somethings who aspire to buy lower level BMWs and Mercs, grew up in a time when Caddies were what their grandparents drove to the bingo hall Thursday nights while the hip, successful people (celebrities) were all driving Mercs and BMWs.  When was the last time you saw a late 80s or early 90s Merc or Bimmer with white-walls?  I don't think I've seen a Caddy of that vintage in good running order without them.

Basically, Caddy is trying to attract a demographic that grew up around Caddies like these:

1990 Seville


1990 Coupe de Ville


1991 Sedan de Ville


Note the whitewall tires that went out of style 10 years earlier, and while not shown, faux convertible tops (vinyl or felt covered roofs) were a factory option.

While BMW and Merc were building cars like these:

~1990 5 series


~1990 7 series


~1990 E-class


Note the more restrained use of chrome, no whitewalls, and I've never seen any of these fitted with felt or vinyl roofs (well, maybe an old E-class that somebody slapped an aftermarket piece on...).  As a young professional, I know which of these I'd want to be seen driving.

Caddy can overcome, but it will take time (a lot of time, I fear) and they're going to have to keep putting on their A-game even if the results aren't immediately apparent.  The CTS was really the first "youthfully appealing" model Caddy has produced since the Malaise era, and that came out in '02.  Caddy has been moving in the right direction since that point.  So kids born in the early to mid 90s will be the first generation to really grow up with a more youthful, energetic, and Euro-competitive Cadillac lineup.  So in another 10-15 years, when these kids are old enough to start affording cars in that segment, Caddy will be in a good position if they keep it up.  In the mean time, they need to keep trying to win over Millennials.

[12,000 RPM]

I dont buy that its the brand. Its the cars. Infiniti's G came out around the same time as the CTS and they both kind of sold around the same volumes, up until 2012 where CTS sales started to fall off. Remember the CTS was coming off the heels of the Catera, which, sorry Madman, was awful compared to the best of the sport sedan segment. People liked em and bought em in spite of Caddy's bad image. The current ATS/CTS are kinda stodgy and don't really bring anything to the table the competition doesn't. Instead of turning up the weird + distinctive looks of the last CTS they went too conservative and "me too". It was a mistake. Plus nobody remembers those awful Caddys, really. I dont think branding is that big of a deal.

[veeman]

If you have 40 - 50 thousand to send and you're looking for a BMW 3 series kind of car, why would you go for the ATS?  The main reason would be trying to be different, you love the styling, or you're in to the domestics for emotional/political reasons. 

People think that Cadillac has shitty resale and poor reliability. 

I think Cadillac should have offered a hyundai type of warranty on their sedans and a white glove dealership experience like hyundai offers on their Equus.  That would at least get people to talk about them. 

[MX793]

I dont buy that its the brand. Its the cars. Infiniti's G came out around the same time as the CTS and they both kind of sold around the same volumes, up until 2012 where CTS sales started to fall off. Remember the CTS was coming off the heels of the Catera, which, sorry Madman, was awful compared to the best of the sport sedan segment. People liked em and bought em in spite of Caddy's bad image. The current ATS/CTS are kinda stodgy and don't really bring anything to the table the competition doesn't. Instead of turning up the weird + distinctive looks of the last CTS they went too conservative and "me too". It was a mistake. Plus nobody remembers those awful Caddys, really. I dont think branding is that big of a deal.

And, year for year, BMW sold nearly as many 3-series in the US as Infiniti and Cadillac sold Gs and CTSs combined.

People may not remember the specific cars, but the stigma of them still remains.  The Caddies of the later 90s were an improvement from the late 80s to early 90s cars, but they improved from awful to forgettable.

I agree that the latest CTS will likely prove a misstep.  The styling, particularly the rear, is not nearly as handsome as the previous model.  It does indeed seem a bit more conservative and stodgy.  I think the ATS is the best looking car in their lineup now, and even it isn't as sharp as the previous CTS.

[MexicoCityM3]

It is both the brand and the cars. The brand has the issues many have mentioned (very noticeable here in Mexico) and the cars are great to drive but lack in many other very visible aspects like cabin tech that people today care a lot about.

[280Z Turbo]

There was a time when Hyundai = POS.... look at them now

GM/Caddy can overcome, but they have to build good cars that people want. They might never be MB, but they can at least be  taken somewhat seriously. A store brand 3/5 series for name brand 3/5 prices isnt the answer

Yeah, they can't out-German the Germans.

I honestly don't know how Cadillac or Lincoln could possibly sell a luxury car to anyone under 60.

[12,000 RPM]

Yeah, they can't out-German the Germans.

I honestly don't know how Cadillac or Lincoln could possibly sell a luxury car to anyone under 60.

Chrysler did for a minute. They outsold the 3, 5, E class and all the other cars in those segments that sold less (not combined) for like 2 years with the 300. Chrysler, the most despondent, badge engineered, low badge equity domestic luxury brand by a landslide, at that time.

Americans care about brand, but the ones who can't afford big brands are cool with just going for big style. That's the domestic luxury brands' in. The Germans can afford to do boring ass same sausage different length designs because they have the brand equity to do whatever they want. Caddy made a mistake thinking they could too.

I wish we could @ posters, Im really curious to see what Mr H has to say about this.

[MX793]

Chrysler isn't a premium or luxury brand, they're on the higher end of mainstream.  They are, at best, at the same level as Buick, though perhaps closer to what Mercury was.  And the 300 as vastly cheaper than any midsize or fullsize car from any of the premium/luxury makes.  Back in '04, an E320 or 530i cost 5-figures more than a 300C.  A well equipped 325i was about the same price as a top of the line 300C, and was undercut by the V6 models, not that anyone shopping for a Chrysler 300 would even look at a 3er.

[12,000 RPM]

When the CTS came out, it was a lot cheaper than the German cars it was priced like. I wouldnt call Cadillac in 2003 a premium brand either. Hell, I wouldn't call Cadillac or Infiniti premium brands now, at least not on the level of the Germans or Jaguar.

And in any case, chasing pedigree/prestige is kind of a fools errand. MB/BMW's reputation is 40 years strong in the US. Audi's is about 20. Caddy was destroying theirs over that time. So they can't fight on the same playing fields as the Germans, they will always be considered also-rans. Better to find a niche like Chrysler did, and milk the hell out of that. I think there are a lot of Americans who want a luxury car with a name rather than an acronym, and as the 300 showed, a car that makes a statement and is built to American tastes, rather than some adapted Euro cab world car something or other. Like I said before... Lexus' biggest sellers are the cars they made that deviated from the Germans and catered to Americans (ES/RX)... Caddy's comeback kid would be no different. They just need to figure out what the hell it will be.