Car Chat

[12,000 RPM]

I can't speak for the new 3 but the current 6 is rated higher in reliability than the Accord, as is the CX-5 over the CR-V. The 6 is also going to be getting AWD and a diesel option in the near future as well (the 3 too has AWD). While the Accord does hold several measurable advantages such as interior space and fuel economy, I question whether the new Hondas will hold up over time like the old ones did. While Mazda's lineup may not be the best for everyone (particularly those who prioritize fuel economy and interior space), I still contend that their combination of quality, livability, drive and consistency with design are tops among mainstreamers.

Oh for sure, I didn't mean to imply Mazda was near the bottom of the pack. Design, fuel economy, ergonomics, reliability, they are at or near the top. But for the mainstreamers, in my experience, they don't live up to the dynamic hype they constantly play up. Once you take that away the value proposition kind of falls apart.

I think for Mazda the halo car effect is very strong. To me that is a bit like saying a Corvette makes a Malibu better. I'm not sold. Again they are not bad cars but to me the obvious drivers' choice in the mainstream world is Honda.

[r0tor]

Toyota also has port and direct injection on the Corolla 2.0L which should allay a lot of carbon buildup on modern GDI engines.

All you need is an oil/water seperator on the pcv to stop carbon issues... OEMs have begun using them

[MX793]

Have you thought about a 2008-2011 Ford Focus? They have a traditional automatic and are mechanically solid overall. Cheaper than a Civic or Corolla of the same vintage. Also I don't know if it holds true over there but a Pontiac Vibe would also be quite good, especially if the market doesn't know it's a Matrix twin.

In this climate, most cars have pretty significant corrosion damage after 9 or 10 years.

[Laconian]

Mazda is not overhyped. They're pretty unknown relative to other mainstream brands.

[93JC]

Sporty is a Mazda hater, there's no point trying to talk to him objectively about it.

[2o6]

Idk I think sporty has a point. They're fine cars, but I don't think they're the 2nd coming of Jesus like some here espouse.

Especially since the enthusiasts have a habit of flipping on their beloved icons at the drop of a hat.

[HurricaneSteve]

Just out of curiosity, are you comparing auto to auto and manual to manual? Admittedly the only current gen Civic I have driven is the Si and while the engine and chassis were impressive, the shifter was a letdown (definitely less smooth than the 2010 Accord I once owned). I would say that the one in my 2 actually felt better (clutch is a different story though). In my experience, the Mazda's I've driven generally felt sharper than competing Honda's, model to model and transmission to transmission (3 vs Civic, 6 vs Accord, CX-5 vs CRV, 2 vs Fit). The only times the Honda's stood out were when equipped with a manual transmission. The automatics, not so much.

I will say that the only other recent Honda I've spent an extensive amount of time in would be my sister's 2016 Fit and while it is their cheapest model, it's not something I would call fun to drive.

Oh for sure, I didn't mean to imply Mazda was near the bottom of the pack. Design, fuel economy, ergonomics, reliability, they are at or near the top. But for the mainstreamers, in my experience, they don't live up to the dynamic hype they constantly play up. Once you take that away the value proposition kind of falls apart.

I think for Mazda the halo car effect is very strong. To me that is a bit like saying a Corvette makes a Malibu better. I'm not sold. Again they are not bad cars but to me the obvious drivers' choice in the mainstream world is Honda.

[HurricaneSteve]

Shoot never mind! You might have to get a deeply discounted Versa then.

In this climate, most cars have pretty significant corrosion damage after 9 or 10 years.

[Laconian]

Bought a bicycle for city errands and fitness. 7-speed transmission. The engine is located in my chest and has a pump capacity of... 

Join the biking thread! I think I have the same MTX rear luggage rack as you do. It's fantastic little bag for commuting to and from work. No back sweat from backpacks.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Shoot never mind! You might have to get a deeply discounted Versa then.

NO

[HurricaneSteve]

To me what's impressive is that they're essentially doing what VW did with their cars in the late 90's/early 2000's AND upping their overall quality at the same time, not to mention they're one of the few companies who still offers an affordable sports car that continues to get better every year. All of this with one of the smallest R&D budgets in the industry. Second coming of Jesus? No they're not but I don't see many, if any, other companies catering to enthusiasts and trying to offer well rounded vehicles like Mazda is.

Idk I think sporty has a point. They're fine cars, but I don't think they're the 2nd coming of Jesus like some here espouse.

Especially since the enthusiasts have a habit of flipping on their beloved icons at the drop of a hat.

[Laconian]

Plus... which companies are perfect?

[HurricaneSteve]

Can't think of any! Lots of good companies out there though. However, I would like to see Mazda improve their interior packaging a bit, if only to address additional criticisms of their products. For my purposes they work well enough but that seems to be the next obstacle to overcome. My wife sat in the 2019 3 and liked it overall but rearward visibility is a concern. Hopefully the upcoming CX-30 will check all of the right boxes.

Plus... which companies are perfect?

[cawimmer430]

Join the biking thread! I think I have the same MTX rear luggage rack as you do. It's fantastic little bag for commuting to and from work. No back sweat from backpacks.

Will look for it later. Had a productive ride today. 9 km of cycling according to my fitness app.

[12,000 RPM]

Just out of curiosity, are you comparing auto to auto and manual to manual?

I have driven an auto 3i and various other rental spec compacts. To me the 3i drove exactly like the Golf TSI, but with what felt like half the HP. Definitely not the dance partner the media has proclaimed it to be. Again not a bad car at all but the driving experience was a let down.

Obviously not every company is perfect and I'm definitely not saying Honda is. I evaluate cars on what is inherently good about them and what can be fixed. With Honda you can improve shifter feel with solid bushings (at the expense of some vibration). Suspension etc. are wide open. You can't fix the 3's cramped back seat and it will be pretty hard to get it some more power. They took the stickshift out of the 6... again not something you can fix easily. Honda will still sell you an Accord with the big engine and 3 pedals. Many of the details can be dealt with within warranty and through the aftermarket.

[HurricaneSteve]

Isn't the Golf considered one of the top driving compacts out there? Driving exactly as well as a Golf doesn't sound like faint praise to me. The 2.0L is down on power for sure though so I believe the 2.5L would have been a better comparison.

The comments about the Accord and 6 are fair. It is disappointing that Mazda dropped the manual for the 6 but I thought this discussion was about dynamics and driving, not modding potential and interior space?

I have driven an auto 3i and various other rental spec compacts. To me the 3i drove exactly like the Golf TSI, but with what felt like half the HP. Definitely not the dance partner the media has proclaimed it to be. Again not a bad car at all but the driving experience was a let down.

Obviously not every company is perfect and I'm definitely not saying Honda is. I evaluate cars on what is inherently good about them and what can be fixed. With Honda you can improve shifter feel with solid bushings (at the expense of some vibration). Suspension etc. are wide open. You can't fix the 3's cramped back seat and it will be pretty hard to get it some more power. They took the stickshift out of the 6... again not something you can fix easily. Honda will still sell you an Accord with the big engine and 3 pedals. Many of the details can be dealt with within warranty and through the aftermarket.

[12,000 RPM]

The Golf is dynamically competent but nobody was busting nuts over it like the 3. And the availability of stick and engines factors into the driving experience. If you want 3 pedals the 6 is out and it seems like a lot of the new 3s are too. That seems important to enthusiasts.

Again not trying to rip on Mazda but just look at things objectively. There are no Mazda equivalents to something like the Civic Si/Type-R or even the Accord Sport. So how can Mazda be the top dog in the mainstream realm for drivers?

[Laconian]

The Golf is dynamically competent but nobody was busting nuts over it like the 3. And the availability of stick and engines factors into the driving experience. If you want 3 pedals the 6 is out and it seems like a lot of the new 3s are too. That seems important to enthusiasts.

Again not trying to rip on Mazda but just look at things objectively. There are no Mazda equivalents to something like the Civic Si/Type-R or even the Accord Sport. So how can Mazda be the top dog in the mainstream realm for drivers?

Mazdas might not make big power, but where's Honda's sports car?

[MrH]

Mazdas might not make big power, but where's Honda's sports car?

In my garage 

[Laconian]

In my garage 

Honda couldn't sell 200,000 units per year, so they lost interest and moved the R&D team to the Insight. 

[HurricaneSteve]

Actually both C&D and Consumer Reports pegged the Golf as one of the best driving cars in the class so I hardly think "nobody" was praising it. Sure, having an available manual is nice but if that's such a big factor does this mean that BMW and Audi no longer cater to enthusiasts as well?

You're right, there are no Mazda equivalents to the Si/Type R and Accord 2.0T 6MT but I feel with Mazda's you also don't have to get a specialty trim for a great driving experience. They're baked into even the base Sport models. If I don't want a droning, ticking timebomb of a CVT and/or a tiny turbo motor, what else does Honda offer that drives great? A base 2.0L Civic with a manual? And Laconian mentioned it but where's Honda's affordable sports car? The NSX?

The Golf is dynamically competent but nobody was busting nuts over it like the 3. And the availability of stick and engines factors into the driving experience. If you want 3 pedals the 6 is out and it seems like a lot of the new 3s are too. That seems important to enthusiasts.

Again not trying to rip on Mazda but just look at things objectively. There are no Mazda equivalents to something like the Civic Si/Type-R or even the Accord Sport. So how can Mazda be the top dog in the mainstream realm for drivers?

[2o6]

Also, fuck what auto journalists say.

[MX793]

Idk I think sporty has a point. They're fine cars, but I don't think they're the 2nd coming of Jesus like some here espouse.

Especially since the enthusiasts have a habit of flipping on their beloved icons at the drop of a hat.

Can't speak to later iterations, but the 1st generation Mazda3 was a very sharp handling car.  I've flogged a few FWD cars hard (like AutoX hard) and that still is the only FWD car I've driven to date that was easy to induce oversteer in.

[2o6]

Can't speak to later iterations, but the 1st generation Mazda3 was a very sharp handling car.  I've flogged a few FWD cars hard (like AutoX hard) and that still is the only FWD car I've driven to date that was easy to induce oversteer in.

I owned one. It was nice. I liked it for the month or so I owned it.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Can't speak to later iterations, but the 1st generation Mazda3 was a very sharp handling car.  I've flogged a few FWD cars hard (like AutoX hard) and that still is the only FWD car I've driven to date that was easy to induce oversteer in.

1st gen Focus was stupid easy, too.

[12,000 RPM]

Actually both C&D and Consumer Reports pegged the Golf as one of the best driving cars in the class so I hardly think "nobody" was praising it. Sure, having an available manual is nice but if that's such a big factor does this mean that BMW and Audi no longer cater to enthusiasts as well?

You're right, there are no Mazda equivalents to the Si/Type R and Accord 2.0T 6MT but I feel with Mazda's you also don't have to get a specialty trim for a great driving experience. They're baked into even the base Sport models. If I don't want a droning, ticking timebomb of a CVT and/or a tiny turbo motor, what else does Honda offer that drives great? A base 2.0L Civic with a manual? And Laconian mentioned it but where's Honda's affordable sports car? The NSX?

Again I'm not saying Mazdas aren't good drivers in their class. Just not the best. At best they're tied. And I think calling a Civic Si or an Accord Sport special trims is debatable. The 3i Sport rental I had did not drive much differenty from the Golf TSI or Civic 2.0 rentals I had. Maybe they skimp on the driving magic for the fleet models.

And you are right that Honda doesn't have a sports car. I think the Miata is great and I'm glad Mazda makes it. But a GT-R doesn't make an Altima any more or less fun to drive. A Corvette doesn't make a Malibu magic. So I don't think the 3/6/CX-x should get brownie points for sharing a showroom with the Miata. An argument could be made that it's better to spread the resources a sports car would eat up around to the rest of the lineup so more people will get some driving enjoyment and better overall cars. I'd argue the opposite is the case for a lot of brands (though not Mazda).

I'm gonna leave it here because I don't want to come across as badmouthing Mazda. I'm not hot on the 3 but I would probably buy a 6 over an Accord. Just looks way better and is more upscale, which is Mazda's real strength. But I don't think C&D took a 6 to the track. In fact I'm not sure what the last non Miata Mazda they took was. MS3?

[Eye of the Tiger]

What we need is a Miata-based station wagon. I would sell my soul for that.

[Laconian]

And you are right that Honda doesn't have a sports car. I think the Miata is great and I'm glad Mazda makes it. But a GT-R doesn't make an Altima any more or less fun to drive. A Corvette doesn't make a Malibu magic. So I don't think the 3/6/CX-x should get brownie points for sharing a showroom with the Miata

I dunno about that. In my mind, the Corvette and the GT-R don't exist in the same family tree as their showroom siblings. The cars are in a totally different price bracket, making 2 or 3 times the power of the rest of the lineup. You won't get in an Altima and think "yeah, I feel the GT-R influence here!" Absolutely not. The Miata on the other hand, is a very clear embodiment of Mazda's values, in terms of design language, focus on ride and handling, price... and power deficit . Connecting the Miata to the 3 does not require a huge mental leap.

[FoMoJo]

1st gen Focus was stupid easy, too.

Same platform.

[MX793]

Same platform.

No, Gen1 Focus was on the C170 platform while the 3 was on the C1.  2nd generation Focus (the one never sold in America) was on the same platform as the 3.