Car Chat

[Soup DeVille]

Reducing travel altogether is a solution, making the same trips by car puts us back basically in the same place carbon wise.

[FoMoJo]

Reducing travel altogether is a solution, making the same trips by car puts us back basically in the same place carbon wise.

It just seems that people like to out and about in their cars.  Pretty much any time from the beginning of rush hour till way late in the evening, major roads/thruways up here are jammed with traffic.  I would think that so many that commute to work and back could now more easily, and even more productively, work from home.  Even the ease of home shopping should preclude people from jumping in their cars and dashing off to the mall.  Really not sure why the traffic congestion continues to grow so rapidly.

[BimmerM3]

Reducing travel altogether is a solution, making the same trips by car puts us back basically in the same place carbon wise.

That's not really true. Obviously the comparison for individual trips is more complicated (# people in car; efficiency of the specific vehicles; length of trip), but the average per-person carbon footprint per mile for flying is almost twice that of driving.

If you have two people in the car, driving will usually have a lower carbon footprint than flying. Three or more and it's basically always better to drive.

[BimmerM3]

Even the ease of home shopping should preclude people from jumping in their cars and dashing off to the mall.  Really not sure why the traffic congestion continues to grow so rapidly.

I've been thinking about that lately. I'm not sure if the carbon saved from not driving to the store would make up for the additional carbon from having more home deliveries than in the past. Obviously goods still need to be delivered to the store, but dropping off a bunch of stuff at one place is better than one or two boxes in a bunch of different places. Plus individual deliveries often have more packaging, so they take up more space.

[MX793]

That's true but even with that generous time off, you cannot travel from Sweden to any place outside of Europe or Russia for the most part without flying.  And many of these countries rely on relatively well off folk like Europeans to support them.  From googling, Swedes love to go to Thailand.  Should they stop going?  What would impact the Earth worse?  The carbon footprint of the air flight from Sweden to Bangkok or the impact of the loss of revenue in Thailand and the subsequent switch of that industry to other means to put food on the table (illegal logging, etc).

Think of the benefits of people staycationing, though.  Their home communities and businesses will see an influx of money as people spend local.  Also, international travel to the far East is how flu epidemics like H1N1 start and spread.

[Soup DeVille]

That's not really true. Obviously the comparison for individual trips is more complicated (# people in car; efficiency of the specific vehicles; length of trip), but the average per-person carbon footprint per mile for flying is almost twice that of driving.

If you have two people in the car, driving will usually have a lower carbon footprint than flying. Three or more and it's basically always better to drive.

Its more or less true, and more so if there's any water travel involved.

Average CO2 output for passenger flights is about 115g per passenger mile. Every gallon of gas produces about 8900g of CO2.

That means to get a car to produce less CO2, it has to average 77 passenger-mpg. (That means two people in a car that gets 38 MPG are basically breaking even, or four people in a 19 MPG car).

And that's making the false assumption that the mileage is the same, when cars always have to travel longer distances to get to the same destination, not even including meal and gas breaks.

Lets not even talk about boats.

[FoMoJo]

Think of the benefits of people staycationing, though.  Their home communities and businesses will see an influx of money as people spend local.  Also, international travel to the far East is how flu epidemics like H1N1 start and spread.

About a week or so after most plane trips, either my wife or I end up with some contagion.  Bloody planes are nothing but incubation chambers.

[BimmerM3]

Its more or less true, and more so if there's any water travel involved.

Average CO2 output for passenger flights is about 115g per passenger kilometer. Every gallon of gas produces about 8900g of CO2.

That means to get a car to produce less CO2, it has to average 77 passenger-mpg. (That means two people in a car that gets 38 MPG are basically breaking even, or four people in a 19 MPG car).

And that's making the false assumption that the mileage is the same, when cars always have to travel longer distances to get to the same destination, not even including meal and gas breaks.

Lets not even talk about boats.

Basically all of these results say that driving is more advantageous than your numbers, though I did not dig into details to figure out where the discrepancy lies. https://www.google.com/search?q=c02+footprint+flying+vs+driving&oq=c02+footprint+flying+vs+driving&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.7647j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Re: mileage - for trips where the destination is not pre-defined, people may also be motivated to choose closer destinations when they're driving. Personally, this topic has made me consider visiting national parks that I can drive to instead of flying to South America - obviously a huge mileage reduction. Plus, the trips where it is most feasible to drive instead of fly are the least efficient for planes since take-off is the least efficient part of a flight.

[Laconian]

http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comic/energy-slaves/

It does put a lot of things in perspective. Are we making the most from our inputs?

[Soup DeVille]

Did you really just post a raw google search as evidence and not even address anything?
C'mon man.

First link from your search (thinkprogress);

"If you carpool with a large group of people over a moderate distance — say, driving from D.C. to Detroit for Thanksgiving — you may still beat flying on an energy intensity basis."

Now that study is about energy intensity per mile, and is not 100% comparable, but it works for our purposes.

Some numbers show better, some worse; but most of those don't even try to break it down in terms of CO2 per passenger mile, and many conflate carbon and CO2 repeatedly.

As to the second part: yes, of course, but that's not what I said.

[NomisR]

Here's the thing, if people especially the government is so concerned about CO2 emission, shouldn't it be leading by example by promoting telecommuting?  Instead of everyone driving to work into a crowded space, you can easily do so remotely from the comforts of your own home in your underwear.  How much less energy would be used just from that alone?

[BimmerM3]

Did you really just post a raw google search as evidence and not even address anything?
C'mon man.

Not really. It was more like, "I don't have time to dive into details, but here's what I searched for in case you want to." Sorry that that wasn't clear, and that I may have exaggerated their positions.

As to the second part: yes, of course, but that's not what I said.

I know - just offering another angle on the issue.

[Soup DeVille]

Not really. It was more like, "I don't have time to dive into details, but here's what I searched for in case you want to." Sorry that that wasn't clear, and that I may have exaggerated their positions.

I know - just offering another angle on the issue.

I just think that demonizing flying is a stupid position (not that you're doing such), and that there are other more effective things we can look at seriously (like moving away from fossil fuels for power distribution, and industrial scale carbon capture).

[Laconian]

How about cleaning up cargo ships and cruise ships? Holy hell they are awful.

[Soup DeVille]

How about cleaning up cargo ships and cruise ships? Holy hell they are awful.

Absolutely.

https://www.windrider.com/blogs/news/wind-powered-freighters

And hell, I hate large cruise ships anyways.

[12,000 RPM]

Here's the thing, if people especially the government is so concerned about CO2 emission, shouldn't it be leading by example by promoting telecommuting?  Instead of everyone driving to work into a crowded space, you can easily do so remotely from the comforts of your own home in your underwear.  How much less energy would be used just from that alone?

Always good for an irrelevant "but what about"

Yes NomisR let's have people remote in over god knows what machines and networks into govt servers. Should go swimmingly.

[NomisR]

Always good for an irrelevant "but what about"

Yes NomisR let's have people remote in over god knows what machines and networks into govt servers. Should go swimmingly.

Solutions, rather than complaining like you're doing. 

[FoMoJo]

How about cleaning up cargo ships and cruise ships? Holy hell they are awful.

After hearing that raw sewage was being somehow circulated back into the clean water system on a cruise ship that broke down and stranded passengers in the ocean for days on end...true or not true...we decided never to go on a cruise.

[Payman]

World's most famous Plymouth going on the block.

https://driving.ca/plymouth/auto-news/news/iconic-petty-raced-plymouth-superbird-and-road-runner-head-to-auction

[Payman]

After hearing that raw sewage was being somehow circulated back into the clean water system on a cruise ship that broke down and stranded passengers in the ocean for days on end...true or not true...we decided never to go on a cruise.

Stuff like that and worse also happens at resorts.

[FoMoJo]

Stuff like that and worse also happens at resorts.

Now you tell me.  We just booked 2 weeks in a resort in Cuba.

[NomisR]

After hearing that raw sewage was being somehow circulated back into the clean water system on a cruise ship that broke down and stranded passengers in the ocean for days on end...true or not true...we decided never to go on a cruise.

We booked a week cruise at the end of the year, at least the cruise line is ranked at the top with regards of being environmentally friendly and also cleanliness.  Personally not a fan of cruising but more family is coming along this time so may be more fun.. hopefully.

[FoMoJo]

We booked a week cruise at the end of the year, at least the cruise line is ranked at the top with regards of being environmentally friendly and also cleanliness.  Personally not a fan of cruising but more family is coming along this time so may be more fun.. hopefully.

Certainly some cruise lines, and resorts, are better than others.

[AutobahnSHO]

It just seems that people like to out and about in their cars.  Pretty much any time from the beginning of rush hour till way late in the evening, major roads/thruways up here are jammed with traffic.  I would think that so many that commute to work and back could now more easily, and even more productively, work from home.  Even the ease of home shopping should preclude people from jumping in their cars and dashing off to the mall.  Really not sure why the traffic congestion continues to grow so rapidly.

It's all about the "feeling of freedom" when you don't have to wait for a bus, don't have to rely on others- it's all about your choices.

Which is why the faster countries get richer, the more they all want cars. It's a luxury. Illogical luxury, but a luxury all the same.

[Laconian]

IMO when everybody's driving cars and cities are built around them, cars turn into a curse.

China traded useful bikelanes with really high peak throughput and people-sized city blocks for huge boulevards and superblocks built around cars. Such a shame. https://radiichina.com/building-china-rise-of-the-superblock/

[Eye of the Tiger]

Cars could just be smaller.

[12,000 RPM]

It's all about the "feeling of freedom" when you don't have to wait for a bus, don't have to rely on others- it's all about your choices.

Which is why the faster countries get richer, the more they all want cars. It's a luxury. Illogical luxury, but a luxury all the same.

I think it's less touchy feely than that. Nodes of economic growth are attracting more and more people. I heard a stat that the area I'm in gets another 65 net people every day. Let's say there's 1 car for each pair of people arriving (kids, retirees etc). That's another ~12K cars on our roads every year.

IMO when everybody's driving cars and cities are built around them, cars turn into a curse.

China traded useful bikelanes with really high peak throughput and people-sized city blocks for huge boulevards and superblocks built around cars. Such a shame. https://radiichina.com/building-china-rise-of-the-superblock/

I agree that cities can and should be less car centric. More and more I miss the car-free lifestyle of NYC. Well, some parts of it

But it takes that kind of population density and public transportation spending for ditching cars to even begin to work. Right now I live about 35 miles from my job. My wife lives about half as far from hers. Hell our day care is a very hilly 2 or so miles away. We'd have to raze the whole area and start from scratch. And a lot of people enjoy the space

Plus China kind of sucks with big initiatives anyway

[giant_mtb]

Unless you live in a dense, big city, you have to have a car. What am I supposed to do, walk 22 miles round trip whenever I wanna go to Walmart?  My ice cream will melt way before I get home.

[MX793]

Unless you live in a dense, big city, you have to have a car. What am I supposed to do, walk 22 miles round trip whenever I wanna go to Walmart?  My ice cream will melt way before I get home.

Or a city with a good public transit system.  But you generally need pretty high density to support that.  Such systems lose cost efficiency with sprawl

[NomisR]

I'm starting to get everything delivered, it's great.  Food delivered, grocery delivered. 

When I was in Taiwan though, it was super convenient at my parent's place, the subway/mass transit station is a 3 min walk, there's a bus station 2 min walk away.  Supermarket is 2 mins away, various restaurants and stores a couple mins away, park across the street, but because it's hot as hell, we ended up Ubering everywhere, especially when you're hauling 2 kids around, it just makes life easier.  Public transportation is nice and all, but then you have to deal with the crowd, the heat, etc etc..