Motor Trend vid: GT-R NISMO vs Z06

[FlatBlackCaddy]

+1

Errbody's talking in absolutes when zero meaningful data is available.

The only meaningful data we have is the numbers from the original review.

The one that had two stock cars, driven by the same driver, on the same track, under the same conditions, on the same day back to back. Those numbers are a valid point of comparison.

Taking one of the cars back, after the manufacturer modified it (for whatever reason) and re testing that car by itself and under different conditions and inserting those numbers into the prior comparison.  That is the definition of meaningless.

[MX793]

In fine M/T fashion IMO it was poorly written. To me it sounds like it was the auto car that was being throttled back and it was because the tranny was running hot (as all autos will quickly do when driven hard).

I'm pretty sure that an AMG Mercedes, or even a Toyota Corolla, could be flogged more than one lap around Willow on a 70F day without the automatic transmission reaching temperatures that would trigger limp mode.

Yes, every auto will eventually overheat (especially in high ambient temperatures).  Overheating after 90 seconds of hard use on a very mild day is unacceptable.

[SVT666]

I'm pretty sure that an AMG Mercedes, or even a Toyota Corolla, could be flogged more than one lap around Willow on a 70F day without the automatic transmission reaching temperatures that would trigger limp mode.

Yes, every auto will eventually overheat (especially in high ambient temperatures).  Overheating after 90 seconds of hard use on a very mild day is unacceptable.

No it's not. You're just a hater. It's completely acceptable.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

No it's not. You're just a hater. It's completely acceptable.

Everybody on this thread has agreed that it's not acceptable.......     

[r0tor]

Everybody on this thread has agreed that it's not acceptable.......     

So why are GM fanbois and owners accepting it?

[GoCougs]

I'm pretty sure that an AMG Mercedes, or even a Toyota Corolla, could be flogged more than one lap around Willow on a 70F day without the automatic transmission reaching temperatures that would trigger limp mode.

Yes, every auto will eventually overheat (especially in high ambient temperatures).  Overheating after 90 seconds of hard use on a very mild day is unacceptable.

But then of course neither of those cars can put down the power the Z06 can - much more grip, handling, braking = much more power into the track (and through the AT).

Per the article the power reduction was slight and progressive - there was no "overheating" or "limp mode".

As I said very early on ITT the C7 Z06 is unique - nothing even remotely as capable has been available with a supercharger and AT. Said capability brings to the surface the limitations of these two technologies.

[MX793]

But then of course neither of those cars can put down the power the Z06 can - much more grip, handling, braking = much more power into the track (and through the AT).

Per the article the power reduction was slight and progressive - there was no "overheating" or "limp mode".

As I said very early on ITT the C7 Z06 is unique - nothing even remotely as capable has been available with a supercharger and AT. Said capability brings to the surface the limitations of these two technologies.

You're right, the 640 HP supercharged SLR doesn't put out nearly as much power as the 650 hp Z06.  And that car is pulling around a fair bit more weight to boot.  Or how about a 707 hp Dodge Charger Hellcat?  Pretty sure that one will run more than a lap without overheating on a 70 degree day as well.

[SVT666]

But then of course neither of those cars can put down the power the Z06 can - much more grip, handling, braking = much more power into the track (and through the AT).

Per the article the power reduction was slight and progressive - there was no "overheating" or "limp mode".

As I said very early on ITT the C7 Z06 is unique - nothing even remotely as capable has been available with a supercharger and AT. Said capability brings to the surface the limitations of these two technologies.

So, you agree? GM put out a half baked product that wasn't engineered as well as it should have been. Is that acceptable to you?

[r0tor]

Right, because Mercedes AMG didn't have a 500hp supercharged V8 with an automatic for over 10 years ago.. Clearly GM just broke all new ground 

[GoCougs]

Oh, here's something new for a change - more not understanding and more not reading the article...

More grip + handling + braking + down force = higher track speeds = more power into the track = more power produced by the engine and put through the transmission. The Hellcat or SLR or any AMG car isn't in remotely the same (track) league as the C7 Z06, ergo, they can't put down anywhere near the average power over a sustained amount of time. There's a reason why left to their own devices a professional track team (or race series) would never choose/mandate a S/C motor or slushie AT.

[r0tor]

OK... Please elaborate further how grip, braking, and down force impact the cooling system loading 

[hotrodalex]

Just close this retarded thread already.

[MX793]

Oh, here's something new for a change - more not understanding and more not reading the article...

More grip + handling + braking + down force = higher track speeds = more power into the track = more power produced by the engine and put through the transmission. The Hellcat or SLR or any AMG car isn't in remotely the same (track) league as the C7 Z06, ergo, they can't put down anywhere near the average power over a sustained amount of time. There's a reason why left to their own devices a professional track team (or race series) would never choose/mandate a S/C motor or slushie AT.

SLR ran 0-60 in the low 3s, 1/4 mile in the low 11s at ~128 mph, and can pull 1.13g of lateral.  It had active aero creating and managing downforce.  That lines up pretty damn close to the Z06.  Especially when you consider the older SLR made do with only a 5-speed auto and weighed 350 lbs more than the Z06.  Auto bild magazine's test driver clocked a 7:40 lap time at the Nurburgring like 10 years ago.  That puts it right in the company of cars like the F430 Scud, Nissan R35 GT-R (circa '09), 997 GT3, Gallardo Superleggara, and Murcielago.  That's no track slouch.

[GoCougs]

Just close this retarded thread already.

Oh, god no, it's just starting to get good as these threads are wont to do - it should be pinned if anything...

Next up:

Rereading the article
A review slushie AT operation
A rereview of S/C operation

[GoCougs]

SLR ran 0-60 in the low 3s, 1/4 mile in the low 11s at ~128 mph, and can pull 1.13g of lateral.  It had active aero creating and managing downforce.  That lines up pretty damn close to the Z06.  Especially when you consider the older SLR made do with only a 5-speed auto and weighed 350 lbs more than the Z06.  Auto bild magazine's test driver clocked a 7:40 lap time at the Nurburgring like 10 years ago.  That puts it right in the company of cars like the F430 Scud, Nissan R35 GT-R (circa '09), 997 GT3, Gallardo Superleggara, and Murcielago.  That's no track slouch.

Absolute track performance is the metric, plus those cars are old; 7:40 is now down there with the lowly Camaro ZL1 (7:41). As comparison, the SLR is vastly quicker in a straight line with a far better power/weight ratio yet posted pretty much the same 'Ring time = SLR was putting a much smaller % of its power into the track.

[r0tor]

So older cars can manage to not overheat with high output supercharged V8s with automatic transmissions - but not the latest and greatest from GM?  Maybe they can catch up in another 10-20 years then.

[MX793]

Absolute track performance is the metric, plus those cars are old; 7:40 is now down there with the lowly Camaro ZL1 (7:41). As comparison, the SLR is vastly quicker in a straight line with a far better power/weight ratio yet posted pretty much the same 'Ring time = SLR was putting a much smaller % of its power into the track.

And if it were the case that something like an SLR could run 20 minutes as hard as the drive could flog it around a track before putting the thermometer needle into the red while the Z06 put the needle in the red after only 15 or 16 minutes, I'd nod in agreement that the Z06 is generating more heat and that I'm not terribly surprised that it overheated a bit faster.

This car put the needle in the red in 90 seconds.  On a 70 degree day.  An SLR would most assuredly be able to lap a track flat out many times longer than that before it put the temp gauge into the red.  It's not generating that much more heat than an SLR driven flat out.

GM under-sized the cooling system.  Plain and simple.

[12,000 RPM]

So why are GM fanbois and owners accepting it?

The non anti-C7 Z06 jihadists haven't "accepted" anything. We are just not yelling at the top of our lungs and bashing our heads on our keyboards in anger over the laptime at a track none of us will ever go to in a car none of us will ever buy. C7 Z06 has problems. My question to you is, OK, so why does it matter so, to the point that you are still angry about this test some months later? You guys are ridiculous. I don't even like this car, but the hate/insanity from you/r0tor/FBC around it is ridiculous. Its not that serious.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

The non anti-C7 Z06 jihadists haven't "accepted" anything. We are just not yelling at the top of our lungs and bashing our heads on our keyboards in anger over the laptime at a track none of us will ever go to in a car none of us will ever buy. C7 Z06 has problems. My question to you is, OK, so why does it matter so, to the point that you are still angry about this test some months later? You guys are ridiculous. I don't even like this car, but the hate/insanity from you/r0tor/FBC around it is ridiculous. Its not that serious.

[hotrodalex]

The non anti-C7 Z06 jihadists haven't "accepted" anything. We are just not yelling at the top of our lungs and bashing our heads on our keyboards in anger over the laptime at a track none of us will ever go to in a car none of us will ever buy. C7 Z06 has problems. My question to you is, OK, so why does it matter so, to the point that you are still angry about this test some months later? You guys are ridiculous. I don't even like this car, but the hate/insanity from you/r0tor/FBC around it is ridiculous. Its not that serious.

Haha, I was just about to make a similar point. What does it matter if GM didn't put enough cooling in the car? None of us will ever buy one or drive one, much less track one. Much less track one at the same speed as Randy Pobst.

I like the car, because it's a different approach to going fast. Much more old school, with big power, big tires, and big aero. A good alternative to the GT-Rs of the world (which I also like). Variety is the spice of life, I like 99% of cars. Why take sides and limit yourself? Why do we get so caught up in hating cars? It's illogical. Stop worrying about having the best car and just have fun.

[12,000 RPM]

And because I know it's coming, my point isn't to say we have to limit discussions to cars we can acquire; my point is I think there is a reasonable limit of time and emotion worth spending being angry about cars- even cars we can buy or even own. This thread is a month and a half old and people are still angry. FOR WAT?

Not to mention the C7 Z06 is still eye wateringly fast and fun to drive, at least according to people whove actually driven it. So what's the issue?

[SVT666]

Nobody is angry.

[Tave]

LOL

"It's OK for me to talk about how awesome this car is because it's so powerful, but no one is allowed to criticize it for not making the power it advertises."

[Tave]

The non anti-C7 Z06 jihadists haven't "accepted" anything. We are just not yelling at the top of our lungs and bashing our heads on our keyboards in anger over the laptime at a track none of us will ever go to in a car none of us will ever buy. C7 Z06 has problems. My question to you is, OK, so why does it matter so, to the point that you are still angry about this test some months later? You guys are ridiculous. I don't even like this car, but the hate/insanity from you/r0tor/FBC around it is ridiculous. Its not that serious.

How dare they post and discuss a Motor-Trend published follow-up article to an issue people were debating? How. Dare. They.

[r0tor]

LOL

"It's OK for me to talk about how awesome this car is because it's so powerful, but no one is allowed to criticize it for not making the power it advertises."

This would be the "new ground" GM broke that cougs keeps sputtering about

[hotrodalex]

How dare they post and discuss a Motor-Trend published follow-up article to an issue people were debating? How. Dare. They.

Discuss? It was almost blatant dismissal just because it got faster. Because that doesn't fit the narrative of the Z06 being crap.

[12,000 RPM]

LOL

"It's OK for me to talk about how awesome this car is because it's so powerful, but no one is allowed to criticize it for not making the power it advertises."

People can do whatever they want, including criticize it, which I have done in this thread. But at this point, 7 weeks later, IMO it's beating a dead horse, and getting wound up over something that doesn't even matter. This is not like the complete bungling of Cadillac, which is way more disastrous, and which I have harped on about, but with a way stronger case than 1 lap time from one day and 2-4 MPH in trap speed. That has huge implications for GM and is far more indicative of management failure than the at the limit performance of a competitive hypercar that will sell no matter what. In my opinion. People are free to post what they want but they aren't free from responses to said posts they mite not like.

[12,000 RPM]

Nobody is angry.

"Call it wat u want" - Foster The People

[Rich]

I was reading the road and track Camaro z28 vs the world track comparo and after three laps of a ~1.5 mile course the oil temps went over 300. The only car in the test to do it with a gtr, viper, andPorsche something or other.

I'd like gm to say something at least

[MX793]

I was reading the road and track Camaro z28 vs the world track comparo and after three laps of a ~1.5 mile course the oil temps went over 300. The only car in the test to do it with a gtr, viper, andPorsche something or other.

I'd like gm to say something at least

It was a V12 Vantage, not a Porsche.