Cadillac CT6 Flagship to Make Debut: March 31st 2015 at NYIAS / Latest Caddy Updates

[SVT666]

While Caddy has been cannibalizing itself in the $50-60K range, Lincoln came out with the MKC.... a $35-50K Ford Escape. MKC outsold the CTS and is within 2K of the ATS in the US. Factoring in:

- the $1B development cost of the Alpha platform
- the fact that the MKC's segment is up 39% from 2015 vs 2014, vs 8% up for the ATS segment and 15% down for the CTS segment
- the fact that there are like 1/2-3/4 the number of entrants in the MKC's segment vs the ATS/CTS
- the CT6's segment has been in a ~15 year decline in volume
- the only people who care about "fighting the Germans" are Johan de Nysschen and non-luxury buyers on the Internet
- the ES & RX pretty much outsell every luxury car that isn't a 3 series or C Class

can u honestly sit here and say with a straight face and tell me GM's developing of not 1, but TWO limited use RWD platforms was a smarter, more profitable idea than leveraging the FWD platforms and PHEV tech they already had?

Have u seen the commercial for the Malibu where they took the badges off and people thought it was a $50-70K luxury car? The average consumer doesn't know jack shit but how expensive a car feels..... as Audi and Lexus show, drive wheels and chassis balance are irrelevant for making and profitably selling luxury cars.

No, my view on Cadillac and Lincoln are abundantly clear.... u took a huge fail on this one. But not as big as GM

Why are you yelling at yourself?

[CaminoRacer]

MKC sells well because it's a crossover.

I don't think anyone has said Cadillac shouldn't build crossovers, in fact they need to come out with one yesterday.

[2o6]

Did Sporty forget about the runaway success of this?






Also, the Alpha platform was a needed change - the Sigma and Zeta were old platforms, and I think Alpha is sort of a combination of those two/new tech. It's GM's only RWD platform now. The new Sigma II, is just a wider, longer variant of the Alpha platform.


Lincoln is LATE to the game, not early.

[12,000 RPM]

Why are you yelling at yourself?

You asked me a question, I answered it. Don't get snarky because you didn't like the answer

No, I don't have a problem with Lincoln. As I have said in the past, I think their strategy makes a lot more sense than Cadillac's, and I documented the evidence to back up my thinking.

[SVT666]

You asked me a question, I answered it. Don't get snarky because you didn't like the answer

I was referring to you mistakenly quoting yourself.  Stop taking this so damn serious.

No, I don't have a problem with Lincoln. As I have said in the past, I think their strategy makes a lot more sense than Cadillac's, and I documented the evidence to back up my thinking.

I would bet Caddy's new styling and CUE are the two biggest reasons for their recent sales slump.  The ATS is nice looking but a bit boring.  The CTS looks fantastic in person, but not in pictures, and again, it's a little on the boring side.  The previous CTS had character out it's ass.  CUE is a ridiculously horrendous failure and difficult to use even for tech savvy people.  Especially difficult when you consider that most people who buy these cars are older.

[Cookie Monster]

You asked me a question, I answered it. Don't get snarky because you didn't like the answer

Come on, man. Don't accuse people of being snarky or looking for zingers when you post stuff like this:

No, my view on Cadillac and Lincoln are abundantly clear.... u took a huge fail on this one. But not as big as GM

[Xer0]

In one thread, we have people bitching about Cadillac sticking to its guns and keeping up its attacks on the Germans even though sales aren't the greatest.  While in another thread, we have people bitching about FCA abandoning a whole segment it wasn't doing too hot in order to build more trucks and SUVs that it is making tons of money on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[12,000 RPM]

I was referring to you mistakenly quoting yourself.  Stop taking this so damn serious.
I would bet Caddy's new styling and CUE are the two biggest reasons for their recent sales slump.  The ATS is nice looking but a bit boring.  The CTS looks fantastic in person, but not in pictures, and again, it's a little on the boring side.  The previous CTS had character out it's ass.  CUE is a ridiculously horrendous failure and difficult to use even for tech savvy people.  Especially difficult when you consider that most people who buy these cars are older.

CUE & styling can be fixed and have nothing to do with GM's fundamental issues with Cadillac. Cadillac has too many sedans and not enough small/midsize CUVs, which is where luxury money is going. GM blew a billy on a platform for cars nobody is willing to buy at the prices or volume they need to get their money back. To a large degree it's too late.... JdN shat in the bed and they have to ride out the Alpha platform pretty much forever. But that billion dollars would have been much better spent turning Malibus & Equinoxes into Cadillacs. In fact that opportunity is still there.

[CaminoRacer]

3/4 sedans is not too many.

[SVT666]

CUE & styling can be fixed and have nothing to do with GM's fundamental issues with Cadillac. Cadillac has too many sedans and not enough small/midsize CUVs, which is where luxury money is going. GM blew a billy on a platform for cars nobody is willing to buy at the prices or volume they need to get their money back. To a large degree it's too late.... JdN shat in the bed and they have to ride out the Alpha platform pretty much forever. But that billion dollars would have been much better spent turning Malibus & Equinoxes into Cadillacs. In fact that opportunity is still there.

Cadillac sedans:
ATS
CTS
CT6
XTS (being discontinued soon)

BMW sedans:
3 series
3 series Gran Turismo
4 series Gran Coupe
5 series
6 series Gran Coupe
7 series
7 series LWB

Mercedes-Benz sedans:
CLA
C-Class
E-Class
CLS
S-Class
Maybach S-Class

[12,000 RPM]

Whats your point

As the CLA shows MB can put a 3 pointed star on a turd and move units. Same with BMW and those god awful GTs. And even they aren't immune. Only cars on your list that aren't down in sales year over year are the 3, C and CLA. In the luxury market everyone is moving to crossovers Cadillac somehow doesn't seem eager to make. And Cadillac doesn't have the luxury of selling the Alpha cars, which are not bad cars by the way, profitably, let alone CLA grade turds. No, the Caddy brand has been destroyed to where all they can reasonably expect to move are "5s for 3 money" like the old CTS, the Escalade and rebadged Chevys. Nobody is going to pay more than $50K for a Cadillac that doesn't tow boats.... it doesn't matter how good it is.

[Cookie Monster]

Cadillac sedans:
ATS
CTS
CT6
XTS (being discontinued soon)

BMW sedans:
3 series
3 series Gran Turismo
4 series Gran Coupe
5 series
6 series Gran Coupe
7 series
7 series LWB

Mercedes-Benz sedans:
CLA
C-Class
E-Class
CLS
S-Class
Maybach S-Class

BMW also sells the 5GT.

[2o6]

Why do you keep pretending the SRX never existed

[Cookie Monster]

Why do you keep pretending the SRX never existed

That would go against his "GM has never done anything right" jihad.

[2o6]

Secondly, the development costs for the GT and GC models at the BMW range are minimal. And a shocking amount of people love the 5GT and 3GT; it's more upright and comfortable to get in and out of than a 3-series, but isn't an SUV like the x3. It's a niche that has it's buyers (old people).

[SVT666]

Whats your point

As the CLA shows MB can put a 3 pointed star on a turd and move units. Same with BMW and those god awful GTs. And even they aren't immune. Only cars on your list that aren't down in sales year over year are the 3, C and CLA. In the luxury market everyone is moving to crossovers Cadillac somehow doesn't seem eager to make. And Cadillac doesn't have the luxury of selling the Alpha cars, which are not bad cars by the way, profitably, let alone CLA grade turds. No, the Caddy brand has been destroyed to where all they can reasonably expect to move are "5s for 3 money" like the old CTS, the Escalade and rebadged Chevys. Nobody is going to pay more than $50K for a Cadillac that doesn't tow boats.... it doesn't matter how good it is.

What's my point? My point is that 3/4 sedans is actually about perfect for the # of sedans a manufacturer should have. BMW has gone overboard with the # of sedans they make. No manufacturer needs more than 3 of anything. 3 sedans, 3 coupes, 3 SUVs, 3 trucks, and 3 hatchbacks/wagons.

[GoCougs]

And what's this silliness about the Alpha platform? Not only does it perform admirably if not class leading in the Cadillac cars, it puts the ~80,000+ units/year Camaro at least a generation ahead of its competition, and on par with the such $60,000+ cars as the RS5, M4 and C63 coupe.

[CaminoRacer]

Yeah, the Alpha platform in no way hurts Cadillac. The few problems with the ATS and CTS have nothing to do with the platform they are on, and GM was going to make Alpha for the Camaro anyway. Makes sense to share it.

[12,000 RPM]

Why do you keep pretending the SRX never existed

SRX proves my points about CUVs being it (it outsells all of Caddy's sedans combined) and GM not needing a new RWD platform (still on the old platform outselling the Alpha sedans)

It's still ugly and dodgeballesque too.... a good looking midsize Caddy CUV would do numbers.

And what's this silliness about the Alpha platform? Not only does it perform admirably if not class leading in the Cadillac cars, it puts the ~80,000+ units/year Camaro at least a generation ahead of its competition, and on par with the such $60,000+ cars as the RS5, M4 and C63 coupe.

You yourself have guffawed at the fact that the old Camaro is on par with those same cars. Not to mention the Alpha platform seems to have WORSENED the Camaro's livability problems (visibility, rear seat and trunk space). Alpha Camaro is sweet but I bet Magnaride on the SS, the new engines and a G37 -> Q50 grade restyle would have got the old chassis 99% there

[MrH]

The guy who bitches about every single pound in a car is now complaining that they shouldn't have bothered with the new platform that saves the Camaro 200-400 lbs?

[12,000 RPM]

Stop with this simplistic drive by goalpost moving bullshit. Weight loss for the Camaro is nice but not worth the $1B+ GM spent for the new platform. Old car was competitive with the new Rustang and the platform change hasn't provided any kind of sales lift.... compare that to the 2015 Mustang which jumped in sales by 50% with the generation change Old CTS outsold the ATS/CTS combined. SRX just had its best sales year ever and is still on the old platform. Aren't you a car industry guy? What exactly do you see as successes from the Alpha platform from a BUSINESS standpoint? ATPs are about the same and volume is down. Only ones singing its praises are internet geeks and auto mag writers. Meanwhile cars like the Q50 are outselling the ATS/CTS on 13 year old platforms with 20 year old engines

Don't get me wrong, the Alpha platform is a good platform... my point is simple though, it isn't what GM needed to spend $1B on. None of the shit it's done for the Camaro or Cadillac have helped the bottom line.

[MrH]

You're just taking out of both sides of your mouth.

This car is 20 lbs too heavy!  That platform that saves hundreds of lbs isn't worth it!  You just like to bitch about it all.

[SJ_GTI]

Stop with this simplistic drive by goalpost moving bullshit. Weight loss for the Camaro is nice but not worth the $1B+ GM spent for the new platform. Old car was competitive with the new Rustang and the platform change hasn't provided any kind of sales lift.... compare that to the 2015 Mustang which jumped in sales by 50% with the generation change Old CTS outsold the ATS/CTS combined. SRX just had its best sales year ever and is still on the old platform. Aren't you a car industry guy? What exactly do you see as successes from the Alpha platform from a BUSINESS standpoint? ATPs are about the same and volume is down. Only ones singing its praises are internet geeks and auto mag writers. Meanwhile cars like the Q50 are outselling the ATS/CTS on 13 year old platforms with 20 year old engines

Don't get me wrong, the Alpha platform is a good platform... my point is simple though, it isn't what GM needed to spend $1B on. None of the shit it's done for the Camaro or Cadillac have helped the bottom line.

You can't know this. GM is experience record profits FWIW, so they are doing something right. 

Its funny you are the one claiming others are moving the goal posts. I don't think there is anything Cadillac can do to make you agree with them. I think you have it in your head that "CADILLAC AM BAD!!!" and nothing will change your mind at this point.

I mean seriously..."Cadillac has too many sedans!" Wat? 

[GoCougs]

Ouch, Sporty and his Internetry...

Previous to Alpha Camaro was on the Zeta and the CTS on the Sigma. Both are now on Alpha, and now so is the ATS (which perhaps may not even exist without Alpha). It's called economies of scale and scope, and putting three cars on Alpha enabled GM to justify spending more which resulted in a world class platform (and theoretically, more sales). And whose to say Alpha won't underpin other RWD cars in the future. And just in general, platform sharing is common in the industry.

But as to $1B+ not worth it? Presume each of the current Alpha cars runs for 6 years each:

Camaro: 80,000 units/year * $35,000 average sales price
ATS: 25,000 units/year * $50,000 ASP
CTS: 20,000 units/year * $60,000 ASP

Total revenue: $34B. Jesus.

[12,000 RPM]

You're just taking out of both sides of your mouth.

This car is 20 lbs too heavy!  That platform that saves hundreds of lbs isn't worth it!  You just like to bitch about it all.

There are ways to save weight without wasting $1B on an all new platform. Maybe its different where you work but from what I understand it's more important for a car company to be financially solvent than light weight. Just ask Lotus :)

You can't know this. GM is experience record profits FWIW, so they are doing something right. 

Its funny you are the one claiming others are moving the goal posts. I don't think there is anything Cadillac can do to make you agree with them. I think you have it in your head that "CADILLAC AM BAD!!!" and nothing will change your mind at this point.

I mean seriously..."Cadillac has too many sedans!" Wat? 

Those profits are all from low fuel prices pushing out high profit trucks, and Buick in China. Cadillac is a definite sore spot. Holla @ me when gas goes back up

Sedan point is pretty clear. ATS segment only grew 8% in 2015. CTS segment shrank 16%. CT6 segment shrank 12%. By contrast SRX segment is up 10% and the segment right below (Q5, NX etc) is up almost 40%. SRX and Escalade are the only Caddy models seeing year over year sales gains and again the ATS + CTS are way down in volume from the old CTS peak. Caddy needs less sedans and more CUVs. Things would look totally different if the ATS/CTS had been CUVs instead

And if they absolutely had to have new sedans they should have been Epsilon based hybrids. They bungled bad and I find it fascinating.

[12,000 RPM]

Ouch, Sporty and his Internetry...

Previous to Alpha Camaro was on the Zeta and the CTS on the Sigma. Both are now on Alpha, and now so is the ATS (which perhaps may not even exist without Alpha). It's called economies of scale and scope, and putting three cars on Alpha enabled GM to justify spending more which resulted in a world class platform (and theoretically, more sales). And whose to say Alpha won't underpin other RWD cars in the future. And just in general, platform sharing is common in the industry.

But as to $1B+ not worth it? Presume each of the current Alpha cars runs for 6 years each:

Camaro: 80,000 units/year * $35,000 average sales price
ATS: 25,000 units/year * $50,000 ASP
CTS: 20,000 units/year * $60,000 ASP

Total revenue: $34B. Jesus.

Lol

1 your #s are optimistic. Take $10K off your ATS/CTS ATPs.

2, revenues <> profits (ask Apple's competitors)

3, surprised at you. Camaro & CTS existed before the Alpha platform. And in the CTS case, it had HIGHER ATP, volume and presumably profit as well (nowhere near as many incentives as are on the ATS/CTS now). Again Infiniti is outselling the ATS/CTS with their 13 year old platform, and you yourself have proudly boasted about how the old Camaro bests the new Mustang dynamically. So wat exactly has the $1B investment in the Alpha platform netted GM that they didn't have already?

[MrH]

They bungled so bad they're making record profits!  Curse that Cadillac!

[12,000 RPM]

They bungled so bad they're making record profits!  Curse that Cadillac!

Escalades and SRXs are up, as I said

How did either benefit from the Alpha platform?

[SJ_GTI]

You keep acting like they developed Alpha and Omega platforms (see what they did there?  ) instead of SUV/CUV platforms. They have been developing both.

They have two of the best selling luxury SUV/CUVs in the market. They are introducing more (XT5 will replace SRX and there are more coming).

Alpha platform is used for both ATS/CTS. XTS had almost no development cost (its just a reskinned Buick, you should love it). CT6 is the first new platform they have introduced in a while and it looks promising (stretched longer than the CTS, and it relatively lighter than Alpha and most of the competition. Will is change their world? Probably not, but considering they are currently doing well (profits and cash flow) NOW is the time to invest in improved platforms. ATS/CTS/XTS sales are mediocre, so they are trying to do better. CT6 seems like an interesting proposition to me. Larger and less sporty than the CTS for only a little bit more money. Not my kind of car personally (even the CTS is too big for me), but I can see why it would appeal to others.

[12,000 RPM]

XTS is the better play on the sedan front IMO. They bungled it a little bit but they lost nothing from it. I just think the CUVs should have come first. Even with the SRX and Escalade doing well they are still missing a huge opportunity with no indication of rectifying it. I feel like we will see a high performance coupe from Cadillac before we see the Q5 fighter they need