Is Cadillac's real problem the Koreans?

[12,000 RPM]

Buick doesnt leverage GM's technologies much; most notably the Volt's PHEV drivetrain. Like r0tor said, in certain very influential circles the hybrid badge is status; enough to convince the kind of folks who would have gambled on W123s in the 70s to buy MKZ hybrids today. Why? They are more luxurious than Prii, and less staid/stodgy than Camrys/ES300hs. Plus Buick is pretty much Opel at this point; Caddy would do better to draw on whatever underpins cars like the Malibu/Impala etc. In the luxury realm customers like SJ GTI and Cougs are few and far between.... hardly enough to design a whole platform/car for.

[2o6]

Buick doesnt leverage GM's technologies much; most notably the Volt's PHEV drivetrain. Like r0tor said, in certain very influential circles the hybrid badge is status; enough to convince the kind of folks who would have gambled on W123s in the 70s to buy MKZ hybrids today. Why? They are more luxurious than Prii, and less staid/stodgy than Camrys/ES300hs. Plus Buick is pretty much Opel at this point; Caddy would do better to draw on whatever underpins cars like the Malibu/Impala etc. In the luxury realm customers like SJ GTI and Cougs are few and far between.... hardly enough to design a whole platform/car for.

....Buick uses the same power trains that the Malibu and Impala use.



The Encore is a tall sonic with a nice interior.

The LaCrosse and Impala are on the same platform.

same with Regal and Malibu.

Verano and Cruze are the same, the Verano just has a bigger engine.




You keep describing s Buick like product.


It already exists in production - it's cslled fucking Buick.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Well as a consumer I hope Cadillac keeps going in its current direction and simply keeps making its cars better and better. IMHO their strategy is better, long term (ie: 10-20 years) than the short term strategy of rebadging mainstreamers. IMHO doing that is what killed a lot of GM's brand equity in the 70's and 80's.

As a consumer I would take the ATS or CTS over any car being sold by Lincoln. So as a consumer, I like what Cadillac is doing.

[12,000 RPM]

2o6 U are not getting my point. Its not about powertrains, its about hybrids. That hybrid badge has status among the fart huffing tree hugging liberals, and from what I know Buick only has one (Lacrosse).

GM has developed a really good PHEV setup in the Volt.... they should use Cadillac as an opportunity to cash in on that developed technology and remake Cadillac's image. Break out "Escalade" as its own brand like RAM or Range Rover and let Caddy be a futuristic, high design, high content, "green" brand to be the new face of GM's engineering. There is next to no value in the path they have taken... nobody is going to buy the CT6, nobody considers the ATS/CTS legit German competitors (hence the brutal price adjustments), no European would be caught dead in a modern Cadillac. How long does this charade have to go on?

[SVT32V]

Me? I'm Monday night quarterbacking with a foam #1 hat and a beer hat.

The biggest irony here is the most successful Cadillacs are the ones GM has invested the least in (Escalade and SRX).

This is also true of Lexus with the likes of the ES line etc.

[SVT32V]

Well as a consumer I hope Cadillac keeps going in its current direction and simply keeps making its cars better and better. IMHO their strategy is better, long term (ie: 10-20 years) than the short term strategy of rebadging mainstreamers. IMHO doing that is what killed a lot of GM's brand equity in the 70's and 80's.

Not sure about that, Acura's niche has always been rebadged mainstreamers with nicer interiors and it has worked well enough for many years.

[SVT32V]

....Buick uses the same power trains that the Malibu and Impala use.



The Encore is a tall sonic with a nice interior.

The LaCrosse and Impala are on the same platform.

same with Regal and Malibu.

Verano and Cruze are the same, the Verano just has a bigger engine.




You keep describing s Buick like product.


It already exists in production - it's cslled fucking Buick.

Buick doesn't have the pseudo-badge that Lincoln has.
Buick is good for china not the US.

[2o6]

2o6 U are not getting my point. Its not about powertrains, its about hybrids. That hybrid badge has status among the fart huffing tree hugging liberals, and from what I know Buick only has one (Lacrosse).

GM has developed a really good PHEV setup in the Volt.... they should use Cadillac as an opportunity to cash in on that developed technology and remake Cadillac's image. Break out "Escalade" as its own brand like RAM or Range Rover and let Caddy be a futuristic, high design, high content, "green" brand to be the new face of GM's engineering. There is next to no value in the path they have taken... nobody is going to buy the CT6, nobody considers the ATS/CTS legit German competitors (hence the brutal price adjustments), no European would be caught dead in a modern Cadillac. How long does this charade have to go on?

.....the Volt is a new hybrid setup. And it's not really workable in a larger application. (Until now)

A lot of the battery tech and other things on the volt were and are standalone and can't be scaled to another architecture (t shaped battery)

[2o6]

Buick doesn't have the pseudo-badge that Lincoln has.
Buick is good for china not the US.

Buick is great for the U.S.


Buick has been outselling Acura, Audi, and pretty much everyone except BMW and Lexus.

[12,000 RPM]

This is also true of Lexus with the likes of the ES line etc.

Yep, Ive said as much. Lexus sells 300K cars in the US on average. Im not even kidding when I say ~200K of those are ESs and RXs. ES/RX outsell Cadillac. Maybe "fighting with the Germans" is a dream a lot of Caddy fans have but if I was running a car company my objective would be to make money. ES/RX havent killed Lexus cred; they are actually core components of their identity. Rebadges can work fine for "legit" luxury brands.

[SJ_GTI]

I am neither a fan of Caddy nor do I run a car company.

But again, as a consumer, I prefer what Cadillac is doing. Hope they keep doing it and getting better at it. Competition means better cars. If BMW's keep getting softer and Audi's keep getting bigger, could easily see myself in an ATS at some point.

[2o6]

Yep, Ive said as much. Lexus sells 300K cars in the US on average. Im not even kidding when I say ~200K of those are ESs and RXs. ES/RX outsell Cadillac. Maybe "fighting with the Germans" is a dream a lot of Caddy fans have but if I was running a car company my objective would be to make money. ES/RX havent killed Lexus cred; they are actually core components of their identity. Rebadges can work fine for "legit" luxury brands.

What you're offering and proposing would have GM creating redundant product, which is what got them in trouble in the first place. You want Cadillac to make the LaCrosse and Regal for no good reason.

[SVT32V]

Buick is great for the U.S.


Buick has been outselling Acura, Audi, and pretty much everyone except BMW and Lexus.

Of course, Acura hasn't helped itself styling wise lately and Buick is a cheaper mainstream nameplate. It had better outsell a true 2cnd tier luxury nameplate.

You are kidding yourself if you think that Buick is on the same 2cnd tier luxury badge level as acura, audi, lincoln or caddy for that matter.

[2o6]

Of course, Acura hasn't helped itself styling wise lately and Buick is a cheaper mainstream nameplate. It had better outsell a true 2cnd tier luxury nameplate.

You are kidding yourself if you think that Buick is on the same 2cnd tier luxury badge level as acura, audi, lincoln or caddy for that matter.

You been in any modern Buicks? They're pretty strong products and have been getting better.


As comparable to Lincoln and Acura. Reviews and sales say so...

[2o6]

The point is - Buick is a tier below Cadillac. Different clientele. Different product.

[SVT32V]

Yes, I have, and they are nice, but moving a mainstream brand to the true luxury level is easier said than done. Reviews of caddys are great, but that hasn't translated into sales on the MB-BMW-Lexus levels and buick as a mainstream brand is only selling ~200K a year, hardly worth writing home about. China keeps buick going.

You are delusional if you think that buick is perceived on the same level as acura.

[SVT32V]

The point is - Buick is a tier below Cadillac. Different clientele. Different product.

Exactly, it is not a true 2cnd tier luxury nameplate in the same vein as Acura or Lincoln or Inifiniti.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Of course, Acura hasn't helped itself styling wise lately and Buick is a cheaper mainstream nameplate. It had better outsell a true 2cnd tier luxury nameplate.

You are kidding yourself if you think that Buick is on the same 2cnd tier luxury badge level as acura, audi, lincoln or caddy for that matter.

Acura shot itself in the foot when it outsourced that horrible 9-speed automatic. They soiled their reputation.

[SVT666]

Me? I'm Monday night quarterbacking with a foam #1 hat and a beer hat.

Cadillac? Throwing good dollars after the bad.

Yea, the Escalade and XTS outsell the Navigator and MKS. But the MKZ outsells the ATS. Cadillac has no answer for the MKC which is in a hot growing segment. Most importantly though every car Lincoln has for sale makes money. Caddy is losing money on every ATS/CTS sold. GM will never recoup on the Alpha platform. What good is volume when you're giving cars away?

The biggest irony here is the most successful Cadillacs are the ones GM has invested the least in (Escalade and SRX). When it comes to domestic brands, luxury comes in the form of trucks. People will pay six figures for a truck no problem because the domestics have that brand equity. When it comes to cars nobody wants to spend more than $40-50K MAX on anything "imported from Detroit". Cadillac would have been wise to figure out how to make cars as profitable as possible at that price point than bet the house on $60K 4 banger CTSs nobody wants.

6 figures for a pickup?

[SVT666]

Well as a consumer I hope Cadillac keeps going in its current direction and simply keeps making its cars better and better. IMHO their strategy is better, long term (ie: 10-20 years) than the short term strategy of rebadging mainstreamers. IMHO doing that is what killed a lot of GM's brand equity in the 70's and 80's.

As a consumer I would take the ATS or CTS over any car being sold by Lincoln. So as a consumer, I like what Cadillac is doing.

To be fair, Ford is doing a lot more than just rebadging mainstreamers.  The MKZ shares platform and engines, but everything else about the car is completely different and the luxury and options are significantly pumped up.  If Ford didn't publicly state the MKZ shares a platform with the Fusion, nobody would even know.

[12,000 RPM]

I am neither a fan of Caddy nor do I run a car company.

But again, as a consumer, I prefer what Cadillac is doing. Hope they keep doing it and getting better at it. Competition means better cars. If BMW's keep getting softer and Audi's keep getting bigger, could easily see myself in an ATS at some point.

Thats fair to a large degree. I still think BMWs can be fun. You just have to invest a little bit into them. Coilovers and regular non run flat tires and a JB4 chip. Good to go. BMW's problems are easily remidied. Cadillac's, not so much. For example I am just not at the point in my life where I will daily an automatic. Also not crazy about committing to 50 large for a car w/a 4 banger. So just from that, despite Caddy pitching to enthusiasts, they lost me. Also hard to go w/an NA 6 when a turbo 6 is so much more efficient/brutal. Etc. Caddy doesnt really have an answer for a 335i 6MT which would be my bedgrudged pick in this segment.

The point is - Buick is a tier below Cadillac. Different clientele. Different product.

And Toyota is several tiers below Lexus. But Lexus' biggest sellers are the ES and RX. With enough separation, content and performance rebadges are fine for luxury brands. Platforms are irrelevant... nobody cares really as long as the cars are good values. Alpha platform cars are not good values at MSRP at all.

[SVT666]

Thats fair to a large degree. I still think BMWs can be fun. You just have to invest a little bit into them. Coilovers and regular non run flat tires and a JB4 chip. Good to go. BMW's problems are easily remidied. Cadillac's, not so much. For example I am just not at the point in my life where I will daily an automatic. Also not crazy about committing to 50 large for a car w/a 4 banger. So just from that, despite Caddy pitching to enthusiasts, they lost me. Also hard to go w/an NA 6 when a turbo 6 is so much more efficient/brutal. Etc. Caddy doesnt really have an answer for a 335i 6MT which would be my bedgrudged pick in this segment.
And Toyota is several tiers below Lexus. But Lexus' biggest sellers are the ES and RX. With enough separation, content and performance rebadges are fine for luxury brands. Platforms are irrelevant... nobody cares really as long as the cars are good values. Alpha platform cars are not good values at MSRP at all.

BMW has 4 banger for $50K as well. Oh, and BMW's are fun out of the box.  You make it sound like you have to replace the suspension entirely to make them fun.

[2o6]

Exactly, it is not a true 2cnd tier luxury nameplate in the same vein as Acura or Lincoln or Inifiniti.

Verano and ILX are priced nearly identically, Verano outsells it.


TSX and Regal were priced identically. Tsx outsold regal, but regal still sells well (ish)

lacrosse and TL are priced similarly, but TL is a different product.

Acura is readying an Encore fighter....


Acura, Lincoln, and Buick are all on the same plane.

[Madman]

You know a "Luxury" brand is in trouble when your best-selling model is a blinged-up pickup truck-based barge aimed at nouveau riche shoppers with more money than taste.  If you're the type of person who is easily offended, stop reading this now because I'm about to acknowledge the 900 lb. elephant in the room.

Okay, here goes.......

Does anyone other than wanna-be rappers and drug dealers aspire to own an Escalade?  It may be a low cost/high profit money maker for Cadillac but the brand's image takes another hit every time one of these rolling stereotypes drives away from the dealership.  I know this statement is controversial, but the truth is this image, more than anything, is what is keeping many successful well-to-do car buyers away from a Cadillac showroom.

Want to fix Cadillac's image?  Drop the Escalade, NOW!  Yes, Cadillac's volume (and profits) will take a huge hit.  But, if long-term survival is the primary goal here, it needs to be done.  Next, Cadillac needs to stop worrying about chasing volume in the short to medium term.  What needs to be done is for GM to take the brand seriously upmarket.  Cull all the "Old-School" dealers and set up a handful of boutique-style showrooms where customers spec their cars on a made-to-order basis.  Believe it or not, making a product more difficult to attain creates exclusivity and exclusivity creates desirability.  Call it the Eric Cartman "You can't have one" effect.  The secret to maintaining this success it to always produce slightly fewer examples than you are able to sell.  Once the status of the brand is established, then (and ONLY then) you can begin to expand into higher-volume segments.

Yes, this plan will take years, and possibly decades, to fully implement.  It runs completely counter to the short-term thinking which has nearly destroyed the Detroit Three.  But this is what you have to do in order to build a REAL premium brand.  No shortcuts, no penny-pinching.  Either do it properly or get out of the luxury game all together.  Half measures will NOT cut it anymore.

[MX793]

Yes, in an era when everyone, including Porsche and Jaguar, is adding SUVs to their lineups, Caddy should drop their highly profitable flagship SUV.

[2o6]

Yes, I have, and they are nice, but moving a mainstream brand to the true luxury level is easier said than done. Reviews of caddys are great, but that hasn't translated into sales on the MB-BMW-Lexus levels and buick as a mainstream brand is only selling ~200K a year, hardly worth writing home about. China keeps buick going.

You are delusional if you think that buick is perceived on the same level as acura.

200k a year is a lot of cars.


Last year Buick sold 229k cars. More than 60k more than Acura, Audi and far more than Lincoln.

[2o6]

You know a "Luxury" brand is in trouble when your best-selling model is a blinged-up pickup truck-based barge aimed at nouveau riche shoppers with more money than taste.  If you're the type of person who is easily offended, stop reading this now because I'm about to acknowledge the 900 lb. elephant in the room.

Okay, here goes.......

Does anyone other than wanna-be rappers and drug dealers aspire to own an Escalade?  It may be a low cost/high profit money maker for Cadillac but the brand's image takes another hit every time one of these rolling stereotypes drives away from the dealership.  I know this statement is controversial, but the truth is this image, more than anything, is what is keeping many successful well-to-do car buyers away from a Cadillac showroom.

Want to fix Cadillac's image?  Drop the Escalade, NOW!  Yes, Cadillac's volume (and profits) will take a huge hit.  But, if long-term survival is the primary goal here, it needs to be done.  Next, Cadillac needs to stop worrying about chasing volume in the short to medium term.  What needs to be done is for GM to take the brand seriously upmarket.  Cull all the "Old-School" dealers and set up a handful of boutique-style showrooms where customers spec their cars on a made-to-order basis.  Believe it or not, making a product more difficult to attain creates exclusivity and exclusivity creates desirability.  Call it the Eric Cartman "You can't have one" effect.  The secret to maintaining this success it to always produce slightly fewer examples than you are able to sell.  Once the status of the brand is established, then (and ONLY then) you can begin to expand into higher-volume segments.

Yes, this plan will take years, and possibly decades, to fully implement.  It runs completely counter to the short-term thinking which has nearly destroyed the Detroit Three.  But this is what you have to do in order to build a REAL premium brand.  No shortcuts, no penny-pinching.  Either do it properly or get out of the luxury game all together.  Half measures will NOT cut it anymore.

This is the worst idea of the bunch.

[Madman]

Yes, in an era when everyone, including Porsche and Jaguar, is adding SUVs to their lineups, Caddy should drop their highly profitable flagship SUV.

I never said for Cadillac to drop all SUVs.  Just drop the Escalade which has a lot of negative mental baggage attached to it in the minds of plenty of luxury car buyers.  The Escalade tarnishes Cadillac's brand image just as badly as all those vinyl-roofed, chrome-laden Broughamtastic barges of decades past did.

[2o6]

I never said for Cadillac to drop all SUVs.  Just drop the Escalade which has a lot of negative mental baggage attached to it in the minds of plenty of luxury car buyers.  The Escalade tarnishes Cadillac's brand image just as badly as all those vinyl-roofed, chrome-laden Broughamtastic barges of decades past did.

Only you don't like the Escalade.

[2o6]

The escalade is also one of the few in its class that can tow worth a damn. The unibody M class and X5 don't do it nearly as well.