Is Cadillac's real problem the Koreans?

[Madman]

The escalade is also one of the few in its class that can tow worth a damn. The unibody M class and X5 don't do it nearly as well.

M Class and X5 buyers don't care about towing and neither do most luxury SUV buyers.

[MX793]

The escalade is also one of the few in its class that can tow worth a damn. The unibody M class and X5 don't do it nearly as well.

Yes.  Rich people with horses (or boats) like to tow in luxury.

[SVT32V]

200k a year is a lot of cars.


Last year Buick sold 229k cars. More than 60k more than Acura, Audi and far more than Lincoln.

Of course it sells more it is a mainstream brand, nobody would expect otherwise.

So the base acura ILX is outsold by a buick, why is that surprising, any number of pricey small cars from VW, audi, minis etc can be considered ILX competitors.

Someday Buick might be on par with Acura and Lincoln but it isn't now.

[Madman]

Yes.  Rich people with horses (or boats) like to tow in luxury.

And an X5 or an M class can tow a two-horse trailer (the type most commonly seen at "posh" equestrian events) without any difficulty whatsoever.  And the truly rich don't tow their boats like middle-class plebeians, they keep them docked at the marina.

[MX793]

I never said for Cadillac to drop all SUVs.  Just drop the Escalade which has a lot of negative mental baggage attached to it in the minds of plenty of luxury car buyers.  The Escalade tarnishes Cadillac's brand image just as badly as all those vinyl-roofed, chrome-laden Broughamtastic barges of decades past did.

You see as many rapper thugs in Mercedes, Bentleys, Land Rovers, and BMWs as you do Escalades.  The car doesn't have any more of an image problem than anything else out there.

[12,000 RPM]

You know a "Luxury" brand is in trouble when your best-selling model is a blinged-up pickup truck-based barge aimed at nouveau riche shoppers with more money than taste.  If you're the type of person who is easily offended, stop reading this now because I'm about to acknowledge the 900 lb. elephant in the room.

Okay, here goes.......

Does anyone other than wanna-be rappers and drug dealers aspire to own an Escalade?  It may be a low cost/high profit money maker for Cadillac but the brand's image takes another hit every time one of these rolling stereotypes drives away from the dealership.  I know this statement is controversial, but the truth is this image, more than anything, is what is keeping many successful well-to-do car buyers away from a Cadillac showroom.

Want to fix Cadillac's image?  Drop the Escalade, NOW!  Yes, Cadillac's volume (and profits) will take a huge hit.  But, if long-term survival is the primary goal here, it needs to be done.  Next, Cadillac needs to stop worrying about chasing volume in the short to medium term.  What needs to be done is for GM to take the brand seriously upmarket.  Cull all the "Old-School" dealers and set up a handful of boutique-style showrooms where customers spec their cars on a made-to-order basis.  Believe it or not, making a product more difficult to attain creates exclusivity and exclusivity creates desirability.  Call it the Eric Cartman "You can't have one" effect.  The secret to maintaining this success it to always produce slightly fewer examples than you are able to sell.  Once the status of the brand is established, then (and ONLY then) you can begin to expand into higher-volume segments.

Yes, this plan will take years, and possibly decades, to fully implement.  It runs completely counter to the short-term thinking which has nearly destroyed the Detroit Three.  But this is what you have to do in order to build a REAL premium brand.  No shortcuts, no penny-pinching.  Either do it properly or get out of the luxury game all together.  Half measures will NOT cut it anymore.

This is quintessential self-unaware armchair brand direction. "Caddy should drop its highest volume most profitable model because it offends my clueless tastes "

And for the record, Escalade ESVs are the DE FACTO family ride of Park Avenue old money families. It's taking a lot out of me not to call u a fucking idiot.

[SVT32V]

At $70-$90K for a warmed over tahoe suburban with a stick axle it would be stupid to axe this model, it is by far their cash cow.

[2o6]

Of course it sells more it is a mainstream brand, nobody would expect otherwise.

So the base acura ILX is outsold by a buick, why is that surprising, any number of pricey small cars from VW, audi, minis etc can be considered ILX competitors.

Someday Buick might be on par with Acura and Lincoln but it isn't now.

Base to base, the Verano and ILX are identically priced! So are the Regal and TSX. and Lacrosse and TL.



How can you not understand that.



Acuras aren't that nice inside, and they generally have a bad case of Honda road noise. most buicks are whisper quiet with great interiors.



Buick is a luxury make.

And an X5 or an M class can tow a two-horse trailer (the type most commonly seen at "posh" equestrian events) without any difficulty whatsoever.  And the truly rich don't tow their boats like middle-class plebeians, they keep them docked at the marina.

Nope. The Escalade is rated to tow more, and some models even come with s trailer brake system.

[Madman]

This is quintessential self-unaware armchair brand direction. "Caddy should drop its highest volume most profitable model because it offends my clueless tastes "

And for the record, Escalade ESVs are the DE FACTO family ride of Park Avenue old money families. It's taking a lot out of me not to call u a fucking idiot.

My comments about the Escalade are based on the opinions of actual people in the luxury car buying demographic whom I have spoken to.  These are people who can afford to buy almost any car they want.  NONE of them have a positive perception of the Escalade and that negative perception casts a long shadow over the rest of the Cadillac brand.

In the luxury goods market especially, perception is everything.

[2o6]

Lincoln isn't making that much - how can you turn your nose up at Buick when all of their models are tarted up FWD fords? That's exactly what Buick is doing, but not even as executed as well. The MKZ is a a Fusion. MXC, an Escape. MKT - Explorer, and MKS, a shitty Taurus. MKS's sales are vanquished by the Lacrosse which is nicer, and the MKT can't hold a candle to the Enclave...

[2o6]

My comments about the Escalade are based on the opinions of actual people in the luxury car buying demographic whom I have spoken to.  These are people who can afford to buy almost any car they want.  NONE of them have a positive perception of the Escalade and that negative perception casts a long shadow over the rest of the Cadillac brand.

In the luxury goods market especially, perception is everything.

Uh huh, yeah ok.


The amount of people here that pass on X5's because they can't tow is actually higher than you'd think.

[SVT666]

Only you don't like the Escalade.

No.  I hate the Escalade too.  A lot of people do.  It's a pimpmobile. 

[SVT666]

Yes.  Rich people with horses (or boats) like to tow in luxury.

The rich people I see towing horse trailers are driving $80K F-350s or Silverado 3500s.

[SVT666]

You see as many rapper thugs in Mercedes, Bentleys, Land Rovers, and BMWs as you do Escalades.  The car doesn't have any more of an image problem than anything else out there.

The Escalade is all about Bling!  It does have an image problem.

[Submariner]

Lincoln is garbage.



They don't make a single product worth a damn, except maybe the MKC and MKZ.

You have to admit though, the continental is an interesting proposal....until they tacked on that God awful nose and stuck a V6 in it...

[GoCougs]

Me? I'm Monday night quarterbacking with a foam #1 hat and a beer hat.

Cadillac? Throwing good dollars after the bad.

Yea, the Escalade and XTS outsell the Navigator and MKS. But the MKZ outsells the ATS. Cadillac has no answer for the MKC which is in a hot growing segment. Most importantly though every car Lincoln has for sale makes money. Caddy is losing money on every ATS/CTS sold. GM will never recoup on the Alpha platform. What good is volume when you're giving cars away?

The biggest irony here is the most successful Cadillacs are the ones GM has invested the least in (Escalade and SRX). When it comes to domestic brands, luxury comes in the form of trucks. People will pay six figures for a truck no problem because the domestics have that brand equity. When it comes to cars nobody wants to spend more than $40-50K MAX on anything "imported from Detroit". Cadillac would have been wise to figure out how to make cars as profitable as possible at that price point than bet the house on $60K 4 banger CTSs nobody wants.

Like I said, other than Navigator vs. Escalade and MKS vs. XTS, there is no direct competition between the brands. The MKZ is not a competitor to the ATS just as the Lexus ES350 is not a competitor to the BMW 3 series, and and the SRX hits squarely in the luxury cute 'ute segment.

So how do you know Cadillac loses money on each ATS and CTS sold? The Alpha platform will underpin the new Camaro, which as we know is (currently) a decent seller at ~80,000/year.

And you have the gall to call Madman unaware .

[2o6]

Besides, i don't think Alpha is totally bespoke. Wouldn't be surprised if it shares some engineering roots with other GM platforms

[SVT666]

Like I said, other than Navigator vs. Escalade and MKS vs. XTS, there is no direct competition between the brands. The MKZ is not a competitor to the ATS just as the Lexus ES350 is not a competitor to the BMW 3 series, and and the SRX hits squarely in the luxury cute 'ute segment.

So how do you know Cadillac loses money on each ATS and CTS sold? The Alpha platform will underpin the new Camaro, which as we know is (currently) a decent seller at ~80,000/year.

And you have the gall to call Madman unaware .

ATS has $12K in rebates and the CTS has $17K right now.

[SVT32V]

Base to base, the Verano and ILX are identically priced! So are the Regal and TSX. and Lacrosse and TL.



How can you not understand that.



Acuras aren't that nice inside, and they generally have a bad case of Honda road noise. most buicks are whisper quiet with great interiors.



Buick is a luxury make.

Inifiniti wanted to be on the level of MB/BMW, they are not, Buick just doesn't have the brand cache to be on the level of acura.

How can you not see that, it is aspirational, but that doesn't mean it is there.

It takes time.

Buick also has significant fleet sales that acura doesn't.

[2o6]

Inifiniti wanted to be on the level of MB/BMW, they are not, Buick just doesn't have the brand cache to be on the level of acura.

How can you not see that, it is aspirational, but that doesn't mean it is there.

It takes time.

Buick also has significant fleet sales that acura doesn't.

You're not actually saying a reason besides "it is not."


Lincoln also has a lot of fleet sales.

[MX793]

And an X5 or an M class can tow a two-horse trailer (the type most commonly seen at "posh" equestrian events) without any difficulty whatsoever.  And the truly rich don't tow their boats like middle-class plebeians, they keep them docked at the marina.

Sure, they keep their boats at the marina if they only want to sail on one body of water.  I live within an hour drive of 4 large (60+ square mile) lakes, including one of the Great Lakes, with another 4 smaller lakes within the same driving range.  Lots of folks take their boats to multiple lakes through the season.

[12,000 RPM]

My comments about the Escalade are based on the opinions of actual people in the luxury car buying demographic whom I have spoken to.  These are people who can afford to buy almost any car they want.  NONE of them have a positive perception of the Escalade and that negative perception casts a long shadow over the rest of the Cadillac brand.

In the luxury goods market especially, perception is everything.

Dawg I spent 3 years living 2 blocks from and working on Park Avenue, one of if not THE richest street in America. I used to ride my motorcycle up Park for my commute home from the financial district up to where those executives live. I dont have to talk to anybody, I saw it... seas of Escalade ESVs shuttling execs around or dropping kids off at private schools. They were just as abundant as the S Class. Actually, the combined sales of the regular and ESV Escalades were higher than the S-Class. Thats right, the Escalade outsold the current benchmark of luxury for similar $$$$$$!!!!!

Perception is indeed everything in the luxury realm. An ESV with a chauffer is a huge expression of wealth and luxury. If anything, to people in the know at least, the shadow cast by the Escalade should be helpful. But everything thats great about the Escalade- big V8, expansive interior, practical body- is absent from the ATS/CTS. ATS/CTS would do well to adopt some of what has made the Escalade so successful.

Not to mention ur talks to a handful of people is specific to your circle of friends in your area. Sales stats across the country don't jive with your statistically insignificant anecdotes.

[SVT666]

Inifiniti wanted to be on the level of MB/BMW, they are not, Buick just doesn't have the brand cache to be on the level of acura.

How can you not see that, it is aspirational, but that doesn't mean it is there.

It takes time.

Buick also has significant fleet sales that acura doesn't.

Buick is definitely on the same level as Acura, and in terms of interiors, luxury, and NVH, they are far ahead of Acura.

[hotrodalex]

Plus Buick has wifi!

[12,000 RPM]

Like I said, other than Navigator vs. Escalade and MKS vs. XTS, there is no direct competition between the brands. The MKZ is not a competitor to the ATS just as the Lexus ES350 is not a competitor to the BMW 3 series, and and the SRX hits squarely in the luxury cute 'ute segment.

U still miss the point bro. MKZ and ATS are 2 different ways for folks to spend ~$40-50K on an American luxury sedan. More people go for the MKZ, just as the ES outsells the IS 3 to 1. On top of that the ES' field is hardly crowded, which is how the MKZ was able to take a steady 30K chunk out of its market annually over the last decade.

So how do you know Cadillac loses money on each ATS and CTS sold? The Alpha platform will underpin the new Camaro, which as we know is (currently) a decent seller at ~80,000/year.

And you have the gall to call Madman unaware .

The ATS/CTS are selling below dealer invoice with additional 5 figure cash incentives on top. GM thinks if it keeps this operation afloat people will eventually think the cars are worth asking price, despite the fact that in reality now everyone knows and values the ATS/CTS at transaction prices, not MSRP. The info is all out there bro.

[2o6]

You want Cadillac to build a Lacrosse, which makes no sense.

[12,000 RPM]

No, dont tell me what I want and make it convenient to your argument. I dont want Cadillac to lose money building canyon carvers nobody cares about. The FWD based hybrid is just an idea. But what would be wrong with a Lacrosse based flaghsip that had a hybrid powertrain and a ton of style in and out, vs the CT6?

[2o6]

A FWD based large car would be a Lacrosse. GM would have three of the same car running around, and it wouldn't work. Hybridizing an XTS won't do shit, especially since hybrids aren't generally the volume sellers in the model line, nor would they make any money. Good hybrids are expensive.

[12,000 RPM]

XTS is bombing because it's ugly. It's probably too late now as I bet the front wheel to pedal box/firewall relationship is fixed, but the XTS would look a lot better if they just gave it more metal between the front wheels and the front doors. That, along with a lower shoulder line and a more interesting body shape would go a long way. Look at how the A7 manages all those parameters despite having a similarly nose heavy design. It can work. And thats just a suggestion, not the only way I think will work... but based on historical evidence and current market conditions that seems to be the best way forward to me. What do YOU suggest?

[SVT32V]

You're not actually saying a reason besides "it is not."


Lincoln also has a lot of fleet sales.

Lincoln is not acura, and yes it has fleet sales.

Buick may have cars that are you believe are better than acura, and in many cases that wouldn't be hard.

However acceptance as a true 2cnd tier luxury maker (perception) is a tough road to travel, IMO, they have a long way to go.

Maybe to you they are, you are young and don't remember redneck grand nationals as their flagship.