EPA Going after VW...

[MrH]

There's nothing to suggest that other companies are doing the same thing. The one thing that really separated the VW 2.0 L engine from their competitors' engines was that in most applications VW didn't use selective catalytic reduction (SCR): it didn't use diesel exhaust fluid (DEF; except in the Passat). Not having to provide SCR substantially reduces the cost to build the cars, and not having to refill a DEF tank is more convenient and less costly to the consumer. VW could build their TDI Jettas and Golfs cheaper than anyone else could build a compact diesel therefore they could sell them with less of a price premium, and they could market the convenience of not having to add DEF. It's no wonder that VW became synonymous with "Clean Diesels" in North America: they purported to build them so clean they didn't need all the extra emissions equipment everyone else had.

For years there had been rumours about companies bringing diesels to North America; Honda, Subaru, Mazda all said they'd bring their diesels over, but none of them did. Why? They couldn't get their engines to have the same level of driveability as VW's while still meeting US emissions standards without SCR/DEF. The only other carmaker that sells a compact car with a diesel in North America is GM, and the Chevy Cruze Diesel uses SCR/DEF.

So now we know why no one else could make a small diesel that met emissions standards without SCR and provided the high level of driveability that Volkswagen did: Volkswagen couldn't either, they just programmed the cars to only be compliant with the emissions standards while the cars were being tested. When they weren't being tested the cars were programmed to deliberately ignore the running conditions that allowed them to pass the emissions test.


Like MX793 said, the same researchers who discovered the VW programming also tested a BMW X5 (which uses SCR/DEF) and it passed the emissions tests in normal driving, but anything's possible. I bet we'll see every single diesel sold in North America re-tested for emissions compliance, to make sure VW wasn't pulling the same shenanigans with its V6 and V10 diesels and to make sure no one else did what VW did.

Yep, exactly.  I was wondering why the Mazda6 diesel wasn't here yet.  They kept saying they couldn't pass emissions and wanted to do it without urea injection.  It all makes sense now.

EPA already said today they'll be testing the V6's.  Even though VW is saying those are fine because they have urea injection, I'm wondering if they also ran rich and cool just to ensure they pass.

I'd love for nothing more than a fire sale on A7 TDIs.

[ifcar]

Then how am I passing emissions? Are you sure it didn't "fail" in a broader sense?

You pass emissions because the car is programmed to run one way in testing and another way on the road.

[AutobahnSHO]

Ah--so I'm pretty sure this explains the recall I got in March. VW wanted to reflash my ECU/ECM to ensure "your vehicle remains compliant with future emissions standards," or something to that affect. I'm 99% sure they were referring to this current debacle, as I passed state inspection right after they performed the recall service. If so, VW has known this issue was in the hopper and had begun taking corrective measures as far back as 6 months ago.

is the emissions test with only drivewheels on rollers and something plugged into the computer???

That's what VW was telling the computer to watch for and "be nice" for..

[MrH]

State inspection now doesn't include an emissions test each time.  They assume if you have no check engine lights, you're still good based on the original certification for the engine.

And yes, the ECU was programmed to look for key things to indicate it was under going an EPA test, in which case it ran really rich to keep temperatures and NOx emissions low in order to pass.

[Cookie Monster]

You pass emissions because the car is programmed to run one way in testing and another way on the road.

That's only for the EPA test. I'm not sure how other states work but in California they just hook up to your OBD port and if you have no check engine lights or codes you're good to go, so a horribly polluting TDI would be fine.

[MX793]

I think some states may use sniffers, but most just scan the OBD port for engine and emissions codes.

[93JC]

Then how am I passing emissions? Are you sure it didn't "fail" in a broader sense?

You're passing emissions testing 'cause your car never really got "fixed': it still has that same sequence in it that switches it over to "test" mode when it's on the dyno. The software update was just a last-ditch effort to placate the EPA.

[12,000 RPM]

Yep, exactly.  I was wondering why the Mazda6 diesel wasn't here yet.  They kept saying they couldn't pass emissions and wanted to do it without urea injection.  It all makes sense now.

EPA already said today they'll be testing the V6's.  Even though VW is saying those are fine because they have urea injection, I'm wondering if they also ran rich and cool just to ensure they pass.

I'd love for nothing more than a fire sale on A7 TDIs.

I hear out of warranty A7s/Cayennes/Touaregs come with free engine hoists, service manuals and a full set of tools

[Morris Minor]

VW could be in mortal danger over this. The fines, penalties, sales hit etc, could be enough to put it under. Everyone is piling in.

[Galaxy]

Sooo.... 10 Millionen cars world wide are effected, although it is not clear if that causes them to not meet emissions in all cases. A Jetta with the software designed to cheat in the US, might still meet emission tests in Brazil.

Still, if I were the VW station Chief in China I would now head for the airport. In cases like this the chinese take "heads must roll" literally.

[MX793]

Sooo.... 10 Millionen cars world wide are effected, although it is not clear if that causes them to not meet emissions in all cases. A Jetta with the software designed to cheat in the US, might still meet emission tests in Brazil.

Still, if I were the VW station Chief in China I would now head for the airport. In cases like this the chinese take "heads must roll" literally.

Do the Chinese even have emissions regulations?

[Soup DeVille]

Do the Chinese even have emissions regulations?

Yes, the tailpipe must visibly smoke in order to let the pedestrians know you're coming.

[MX793]

Yes, the tailpipe must visibly smoke in order to let the pedestrians know you're coming.

Surprisingly sensible and reasonable.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Surprisingly sensible and reasonable.

I hope the tailpies are pointed out the fronts if the vehicles, then. They will be more visible to both drivers and pedestrians. They would then be called headpipes.

[Tave]

You pass emissions because the car is programmed to run one way in testing and another way on the road.

I read the California EPA release on the earlier recall, and it isn't clear what's happening. The reflash definitely changed the emissions, and reduced particulates. While the NOx levels were still "significantly higher than expected," that doesn't necessarily mean that they exceeded permitted levels. As bizarre as this whole thing is, it seems even more strange that they would do the recall but leave the test-defeat active, but who knows. CA EPA has apparently rejected the recall in favor of some yet-to-be-determined future action designed to "return these vehicles to the claimed certified configuration."

I don't really care if it meets the claimed specs so long as it doesn't exceed the allowable ppm. The CA EPA statement goes out of its way to avoid making that assertion, and you would think they would come right out and say it if the reflashed vehicles were completely outside of applicable limits.

This is frustrating as an owner, and doubly so because even a layman can physically see that the newest round of passengers diesels are emitting orders-of-magnitude-less amounts of particulates compared to our domestic diesel pickups.

[Tave]

LOL, no wonder my car passed inspection, NC doesn't require an emissions test for inspection on diesels.

[Soup DeVille]

LOL, no wonder my car passed inspection, NC doesn't require an emissions test for inspection on diesels.

Time to roll some coal.

[MexicoCityM3]

VW could be in mortal danger over this. The fines, penalties, sales hit etc, could be enough to put it under. Everyone is piling in.

If it comes to that, I am sure the German government would foot the bill at whatever cost necessary to keep them afloat.

[Raza]

If it comes to that, I am sure the German government would foot the bill at whatever cost necessary to keep them afloat.

VW is pretty huge, though.

[MexicoCityM3]

VW is pretty huge, though.

Yes but the German government is hugerer. 

You did it for GM.

[Eye of the Tiger]

VW is pretty huge, though.

VAG is pretty huge

[Raza]

Yes but the German government is hugerer. 

You did it for GM.

I see. I wasn't clear. I meant VW is so large that I doubt it will come to a bailout situation.

[MexicoCityM3]

I see. I wasn't clear. I meant VW is so large that I doubt it will come to a bailout situation.

I agree. They could probably take a hit in the 20-30 billion range and still survive. A decade to recover or so however.

[Raza]

I agree. They could probably take a hit in the 20-30 billion range and still survive. A decade to recover or so however.

I don't know. A year or two and a debt issue and it will be long forgotten.

[Payman]

VAG is pretty huge

Are we talking 'bout the same thing... or are you still Russian wife shopping?

[Eye of the Tiger]

Are we talking 'bout the same thing... or are you still Russian wife shopping?

Wife must acknowledge the hugeness of VAG.

[93JC]

This is frustrating as an owner, and doubly so because even a layman can physically see that the newest round of passengers diesels are emitting orders-of-magnitude-less amounts of particulates compared to our domestic diesel pickups.

If GM, Ford and FCA/Cummins are to be believed, their big pickups meet Tier II Bin 5... (Or under Tier III, the new "LEV160" rating.)

[veeman]

VW gets most of its sales in China.  Very few diesel cars are sold in China so VW will be fine there.  I think VW will be badly hurt in the U.S.  TDI accounts for one quarter to one third of total sales and so right now at every single U.S. dealership there are loads of cars sitting there unable to be sold.  More importantly there is the public perception problem now.  They're walking around with a scarlet A on their chest.  As it is VW has not been doing well in the U.S. while their rivals are posting increased sales.  I think they'll survive in the U.S. but many dealerships will close.  This will be sad because they're currently the only mainstreamer automaker for sale in the U.S. from Europe. 

[MrH]

$10k off Golf R! All will be forgiven then with me!

[MX793]

VW gets most of its sales in China.  Very few diesel cars are sold in China so VW will be fine there.  I think VW will be badly hurt in the U.S.  TDI accounts for one quarter to one third of total sales and so right now at every single U.S. dealership there are loads of cars sitting there unable to be sold.  More importantly there is the public perception problem now.  They're walking around with a scarlet A on their chest.  As it is VW has not been doing well in the U.S. while their rivals are posting increased sales.  I think they'll survive in the U.S. but many dealerships will close.  This will be sad because they're currently the only mainstreamer automaker for sale in the U.S. from Europe. 

Unless this issue, or its fix, somehow costs owners money, compromises the car's reliability, majorly compromises fuel economy, or creates a major inconvenience, I doubt the hit to their reputation with consumers will be all that bad.  It's not like these cars pose an imminent threat to their owners (e.g. unintended acceleration, randomly catching fire, etc).