EPA Going after VW...

[Payman]

There goes my Tiguan TDi dreams. 

[GoCougs]

Only thing I can think of is how cheap a Golf TDI is gonna get

Saw blurb that the EPA or whatever convening authority will go after owners of current cars.

[GoCougs]

I will say this "scandal" reads like a Soviet political purge. It is glorious.

[CALL_911]

I will say this "scandal" reads like a Soviet political purge. It is glorious.

It sure does

[2o6]

I don't think any sort of value will affect current VW TDI cars.

[2o6]

It's not like, say, the GM diesels back in the 1980's that were a liability because they literally did not run. The VW TDI cars still generally perform well.

[Eye of the Tiger]

It's not like, say, the GM diesels back in the 1980's that were a liability because they literally did not run. The VW TDI cars still generally perform well.

GM should try the same trick again. Take the L86 V8, raise the compression sky high without strengthening anything, and inject diesel fuel without modifying the heads or shape if the combustion chamber. Bam, diesel engine.

[93JC]

If your state DMV won't allow you to register your TDI-powered car unless it has been 'repaired' then yeah, it'll definitely affect the value of the car. If the 'repair' entails reducing power and fuel economy (which they most likely will) that will definitely affect the value of the car too.

[GoCougs]

My hope is that VW has a planned defense and unlike GM and Toyota fights harder though I like the fact that either way there will be far less diesel-powered vehicles on the road and we'll be better off for it.

[Soup DeVille]

The EPA test is realistic, but intentionally repeatable and has the car navigating a very specific trace exactly the same way every time. Apparently the VW program can recognize when its being tested and act accordingly.

Or there might be other telltales, such as the GPS not registering actual movement that triggers "EPA mode." 

Anyways, I'm sure the VW lawyers will have at least some sort of argument theyre going to make.

[Galaxy]

Anyways, I'm sure the VW lawyers will have at least some sort of argument theyre going to make.

Yes, but I am sure in court you start at -10 once the jury is told the company was founded by Hitler. 

[Soup DeVille]

Yes, but I am sure in court you start at -10 once the jury is told the company was founded by Hitler. 

Yet oddly enough, beloved by aging hippies and über liberals of all ages.

[12,000 RPM]

Yet oddly enough, beloved by aging hippies and über liberals of all ages.

The People's Kar

[2o6]

I want to know what exactly what the car was doing. The car that failed (one of them) was the new Passat 2.0TDI with Urea. Was the car programmed to stand and use far more Urea than usual in "testing"?

[Eye of the Tiger]

I want to know what exactly what the car was doing. The car that failed (one of them) was the new Passat 2.0TDI with Urea. Was the car programmed to stand and use far more Urea than usual in "testing"?

Cat piss useage is not part of fuel economy. But maybe it should be.

[MX793]

NOx emissions tend to go hand in hand with higher combustion temperatures.  I suspect they ran the motors a bit rich in testing to reduce temperature.

As I understand it, US emissions regs are very stringent on NOx compared to Euro regs, whereas Euro regs are more stringent for carbon.  Running rich should hurt carbon emissions, but help NOx to some degree.  I wonder if the default engine mapping is the same as what's run in Euro market cars and the inserted the defeat device mapping just to get past US testing.

[565]

I don't care about emissions at all.

Still I want to see VW burn for this and probably will not buy a VW product based on this.  Why?  Because of their willingness to intentionally cheat in every sense of the word on this.  The EPA rules may be draconian, but VW's response to it calls into question everything that they do, and everything that they have done.  What about their safety features?  Do they only work under testing circumstances as well?  I think it's even warranted to look into their racing success, where playing by the rules is everything.  I think the FIA needs a close hard look at Audi's string of Leman's Victories, especially with their TDI engines to see if similar cheating has occurred.

If they are willing to go so far here, where else has similar philosophy been used in their cars? I think it's foolish to think this is the only place where VW has been dishonest.

[2o6]

I don't care about emissions at all.

Still I want to see VW burn for this and probably will not buy a VW product based on this.  Why?  Because of their willingness to intentionally cheat in every sense of the word on this.  The EPA rules may be draconian, but VW's response to it calls into question everything that they do, and everything that they have done.  What about their safety features?  Do they only work under testing circumstances as well?  I think it's even warranted to look into their racing success, where playing by the rules is everything.  I think the FIA needs a close hard look at Audi's string of Leman's Victories, especially with their TDI engines to see if similar cheating has occurred.

If they are willing to go so far here, where else has similar philosophy been used in their cars? I think it's foolish to think this is the only place where VW has been dishonest.

Do you honestly think large corporations are honest?

[ifcar]

The EPA test is realistic, but intentionally repeatable and has the car navigating a very specific trace exactly the same way every time. Apparently the VW program can recognize when its being tested and act accordingly.

Or there might be other telltales, such as the GPS not registering actual movement that triggers "EPA mode." 

Anyways, I'm sure the VW lawyers will have at least some sort of argument theyre going to make.

This article said it didn't require so much complexity:

One key part of the unfolding Volkswagen diesel-emissions scandal is that the vehicles in question operated in two different modes: "On Road" and "Dyno." But merely having two different modes isn't a problem.

The 482,000 Volkswagen and Audi diesel vehicles in question use an Engine Control Unit, or ECU, designed by Robert Bosch GmbH, a German multinational engineering and electronics company. In addition to the ECU, Bosch supplies other key components, such as the computers that control the braking and Electronic Stability Control systems. This is where the Dyno mode—also known as Test mode—comes into play.

Emissions system and fuel economy testing is conducted while a vehicle is placed on a dynamometer—think of it as a two big rollers or a treadmill—rather than driving on the road. The vehicle has only its driving wheels rolling (the front ones, in the case of VW vehicles). But the rear tires are stationary.

The vehicle could otherwise interpret the test procedure as a dangerous situation or malfunction, activating traction control or stability control. By enabling a test mode, the vehicle will be able to operate during the test process. Once the test is complete and the car is restarted, the car reverts to its normal function. And once the cars are in on-the-road mode, they emit nitrogen oxide at 40 times the federal standard, according to the EPA.

The existence of a testing mode isn't a red flag. Most new vehicles have a similar setting. The concern here is that the VW models in question performed differently during the EPA tests to meet emissions targets that differ from their performance in the real world.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-exploited-test-mode

[565]

Do you honestly think large corporations are honest?

I think large corporations operate based on what they think they can get away with. Someone at VW clearly lacked judgment and thought they could get away with this. If a company has the balls to do something like this, then you have to think what else they are capable of. Every system is called into question.

I also think that if you get caught lying to a Government Agency on such a immense scale you shouldn't be surprised there are consequences. Hopefully the EPA fines VW into the ground.

[AutobahnSHO]

What about their safety features?  Do they only work under testing circumstances as well? 

To make sure the tests are "fair" to every manufacturer, the tests are precisely carried out and exactly measured/monitored.

Car manufacturers use all kinds of "tricks" to get a "high score" in the "game" called "safety tests".
I read of someone saying that a car was brought in and got "medium" score in a frontal crash test. They took the exact same type car, adjusted the seat and/or headrest (without any other changes) and brought it back and got a "superb" score.

It's always the same exact result of government making things "fair and equal"- someone will figure out how to take advantage of the system.

[ifcar]

"So let's be clear about this: Our company was dishonest with the EPA and the California Air Resources Board, and with all of you." - Michael Horn, president and CEO of Volkswagen Group of America

http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagens-u-s-ceo-admits-we-totally-screwed-up/

[BENZ BOY15]

So what's going to happen to all those VW diesels? Recall them? Replace them? Refund them?

What a shitshow.

[CALL_911]

I can think of one way in which VW has been dishonest- there's no way my car is only putting down 200 hp at the crank.

[BENZ BOY15]

You guys think other German car companies are doing the same thing with their diesels? Mercedes has made a big push in recent years and you wonder if they were up to similar shit.

[MX793]

You guys think other German car companies are doing the same thing with their diesels? Mercedes has made a big push in recent years and you wonder if they were up to similar shit.

Anything's possible, though the group that discovered the inconsistency with VW also test a BMW and found the results met regulations.

[Tave]

Ah--so I'm pretty sure this explains the recall I got in March. VW wanted to reflash my ECU/ECM to ensure "your vehicle remains compliant with future emissions standards," or something to that affect. I'm 99% sure they were referring to this current debacle, as I passed state inspection right after they performed the recall service. If so, VW has known this issue was in the hopper and had begun taking corrective measures as far back as 6 months ago.

On the 2.0?  I thought urea injection was only on the larger engines.

They made the switch on the Golf and Jetta last year. All new engine for 2015, came with a bump in power and mileage but requires yearly urea treatments. The 2014 Golf and Jetta TDIs are non-urea.

If a car manufacturer tweaks a shifting program to pass a test, you are stuck with that same shitty shifting program in your daily driving. What VW apparently did is load up engine mapping that is only used in the EPA test. Apparently they ran the engine rich to get nitrous oxides down. Plus, apparently the EPA enquired in past years why there was an apparent discrepancy and VW allegedly lied in their face. That is also going to be a bitch for them to fix in a recall. They can tune the cars to run rich on the road, but then fuel economy goes down the drain.

Nah, if what I said was accurate, the difference has been negligible. We're talking about 53-54 mpg on steady-state highway driving versus 55-56 pre-flash. Either way I'm still crushing EPA estimates, but it is a little concerning that VW would risk so much for such a meager reward.

[93JC]

You guys think other German car companies are doing the same thing with their diesels? Mercedes has made a big push in recent years and you wonder if they were up to similar shit.

There's nothing to suggest that other companies are doing the same thing. The one thing that really separated the VW 2.0 L engine from their competitors' engines was that in most applications VW didn't use selective catalytic reduction (SCR): it didn't use diesel exhaust fluid (DEF; except in the Passat). Not having to provide SCR substantially reduces the cost to build the cars, and not having to refill a DEF tank is more convenient and less costly to the consumer. VW could build their TDI Jettas and Golfs cheaper than anyone else could build a compact diesel therefore they could sell them with less of a price premium, and they could market the convenience of not having to add DEF. It's no wonder that VW became synonymous with "Clean Diesels" in North America: they purported to build them so clean they didn't need all the extra emissions equipment everyone else had.

For years there had been rumours about companies bringing diesels to North America; Honda, Subaru, Mazda all said they'd bring their diesels over, but none of them did. Why? They couldn't get their engines to have the same level of driveability as VW's while still meeting US emissions standards without SCR/DEF. The only other carmaker that sells a compact car with a diesel in North America is GM, and the Chevy Cruze Diesel uses SCR/DEF.

So now we know why no one else could make a small diesel that met emissions standards without SCR and provided the high level of driveability that Volkswagen did: Volkswagen couldn't either, they just programmed the cars to only be compliant with the emissions standards while the cars were being tested. When they weren't being tested the cars were programmed to deliberately ignore the running conditions that allowed them to pass the emissions test.


Like MX793 said, the same researchers who discovered the VW programming also tested a BMW X5 (which uses SCR/DEF) and it passed the emissions tests in normal driving, but anything's possible. I bet we'll see every single diesel sold in North America re-tested for emissions compliance, to make sure VW wasn't pulling the same shenanigans with its V6 and V10 diesels and to make sure no one else did what VW did.

[Galaxy]

Ah--so I'm pretty sure this explains the recall I got in March. VW wanted to reflash my ECU/ECM to ensure "your vehicle remains compliant with future emissions standards," or something to that affect. I'm 99% sure they were referring to this current debacle, as I passed state inspection right after they performed the recall service. If so, VW has known this issue was in the hopper and had begun taking corrective measures as far back as 6 months ago.

They made the switch on the Golf and Jetta last year. All new engine for 2015, came with a bump in power and mileage but requires yearly urea treatments. The 2014 Golf and Jetta TDIs are non-urea.

Nah, if what I said was accurate, the difference has been negligible. We're talking about 53-54 mpg on steady-state highway driving versus 55-56 pre-flash. Either way I'm still crushing EPA estimates, but it is a little concerning that VW would risk so much for such a meager reward.

Your recall was an attempt to rectify this, however the EPA informed VW on September 3 that this attempt failed. 

[Tave]

Your recall was an attempt to rectify this, however the EPA informed VW on September 3 that this attempt failed.

Then how am I passing emissions? Are you sure it didn't "fail" in a broader sense?