Lexus LC500

[SVT666]

From a "driver engagement" standpoint, a DSG is just a very crisp automatic with paddle shifters.  It does not engage the driver any more than an automatic.  Put it in D and it will shift automatically.  Flip a paddle/button and it will change up or down a gear.  Driver involvement is the same.  The DSG is better than a torque converter auto, but it doesn't engage the driver any more than a traditional slushy.  They certainly don't offer the same level of driver engagement as a traditional MT.  DSG is a nice alternative to a traditional slushy, IMO.

If it shifts as soon as I pull the paddle, then it's automatically more engaging.

[MX793]

Not sure what you mean. You have a Jetta so I am assuming you have driven both (auto and DSG).

With DSG's the RPM's don't  drop up an down unless the car is accelerating or decelerating (or shifting). The ZF 8-speed works just like a normal automatic.

I am not an engineer but they feel different. Driving a manual in 1st gear without shifting feels different then driving an automatic in 1st gear without shifting. The automatic will accelerate/decelerate smoother, but is less immediate. Once its in gear DSG feels like a manual.

I've not driven the ZF box in question, but I've driven a DSG and several different slushy ATs with manual shift modes, including one that I currently own.

In my Jetta, in Tiptronic mode, the torque converter locks in gear as soon as you are above stall speed.  Pressing down on the gas at 20 mph in 2nd gear feels like doing the same with a DSG or regular MT.  Speed and RPMs move in together in a fixed ratio.  Put it in D, and it will unlock the torque converter under certain engine load conditions rather than just downshift.  Stab the gas when it's unlocked and the RPMs will rise without a commensurate rise in speed.  This is that classic "slushy" feeling that DSGs don't exhibit unless they are malfunctioning.

[Payman]

From 100 feet away, and if I squint, I find the profile attractive. Looking closer, I find nothing attractive about this car at all. That's not necessarily bad though. Nobody ever called Boba Fett attractive, but he's a badass.

This car is Boba Fett.

[12,000 RPM]

In a slushy AT there is no mechanical coupling between engine and tranny - it's a fluid (soft) coupling via the torque converter. This means there is going to be some slip (tranny RPM will slightly lag engine RPM) and absorption of drive train feedback (note: at times there the torque converter will lock such as cruising on the freeway but by and large it's not locked at low RPM, WOT and when shifting).

In a DSG there is direct mechanical coupling between engine and transmission - it's a hard coupling courtesy of wet clutches. There is no slip or absorption of drive train feedback.

The differences are noticeable and why IMO a DSG is definitely more engaging than a traditional slushy AT - it doesn't slip nor absorb drive train feedback. The new breed of slushie ATs perform very well what with quick upshifts and quick rev-matching down shifts, but at the end of the day it's still a "slushy" fluid coupling.

ATs lock up a lot more than they used to. I think Mazda said they lock their transmissions up like 90% of the time. They only slush it up from a stop and during shifts. Acura uses the same principle on their T/C equipped DSG.

I think DSGs have their place and this car would probably benefit from it. They make sense on cars beyond a certain speed threshold (I would say mid 13 1/4s) built to a certain purpose (track day specials or "sport" versions of luxury cars). For example I think a DSG would be a cool option for a GT350. So it would probably fit here. It would fool its buyers into thinking the car was a lot sportier than it actually is, which is probably the point.

But on something slow DSG is kind of silly. DSG worked really well in the GTI I drove but it added nothing to the experience. In slow cars stickshift gives you something to do while you are waiting for the car to accelerate

[CaminoRacer]

From a "driver engagement" standpoint, a DSG is just a very crisp automatic with paddle shifters.  It does not engage the driver any more than an automatic.  Put it in D and it will shift automatically.  Flip a paddle/button and it will change up or down a gear.  Driver involvement is the same.  The DSG is better than a torque converter auto, but it doesn't engage the driver any more than a traditional slushy.  They certainly don't offer the same level of driver engagement as a traditional MT.  DSG is a nice alternative to a traditional slushy, IMO.

I'd rather have a regular auto, to be honest. But maybe I just need to drive better DSG cars.

[12,000 RPM]

If it shifts as soon as I pull the paddle, then it's automatically more engaging.

Most hi po/well programmed auto boxes do this, just not with as much drama (read: roughness).

And yea this thing should have turbos. Its look had me thinking it was a sports car but it's really a GT. It's going to be heavy, it's going to be soft, it's going to be competing with the likes of the 6 series and Benz SL, not the 911s and AMG GTs.

[CaminoRacer]

I like this car a lot, especially the interior. Not a racecar, but looks like a great roadtripper.

[Payman]

Manual. Every time. I'll never buy a sports/GT car with an automatic, no matter how well it drives itself and removes the human element with its sorcery. "But but it's faster and can shift faster than you can!"

Don't give a flying fuck.

[Payman]

I like this car a lot, especially the interior. Not a racecar, but looks like a great roadtripper.

The interior looks like you've fallen into a vat of caramel in the Wonka factory. The design is interesting though. I'd like to see it in black leather with contrasting stitching.

[2o6]

I don't understand why anyone is complaining about the engine when


- This isn't an F-sport model

- BMW has been sharing engines in the 6-series with the 3 and 5 series for years and no one has given a shit.



This car is aimed squarely at the 650i in concept, price, sizing, and output.

[CaminoRacer]

The interior looks like you've fallen into a vat of caramel in the Wonka factory. The design is interesting though. I'd like to see it in black leather with contrasting stitching.

I'd like to see a tan/cocoa color combo.

[SVT666]

Most hi po/well programmed auto boxes do this, just not with as much drama (read: roughness).

And yea this thing should have turbos. Its look had me thinking it was a sports car but it's really a GT. It's going to be heavy, it's going to be soft, it's going to be competing with the likes of the 6 series and Benz SL, not the 911s and AMG GTs.

Explain why it should have turbos. Nothing NEEDS turbos when a naturally aspirated engine can produce enough power.

[Raza]

Not sure what you mean. You have a Jetta so I am assuming you have driven both (auto and DSG).

With DSG's the RPM's don't  drop up an down unless the car is accelerating or decelerating (or shifting). The ZF 8-speed works just like a normal automatic.

I am not an engineer but they feel different. Driving a manual in 1st gear without shifting feels different then driving an automatic in 1st gear without shifting. The automatic will accelerate/decelerate smoother, but is less immediate. Once its in gear DSG feels like a manual.

They fee pretty much the exact same to me. Though it has been a long time since I've driven a car with a regular automatic.

[Raza]

From a "driver engagement" standpoint, a DSG is just a very crisp automatic with paddle shifters.  It does not engage the driver any more than an automatic.  Put it in D and it will shift automatically.  Flip a paddle/button and it will change up or down a gear.  Driver involvement is the same.  The DSG is better than a torque converter auto, but it doesn't engage the driver any more than a traditional slushy.  They certainly don't offer the same level of driver engagement as a traditional MT.  DSG is a nice alternative to a traditional slushy, IMO.

Agree completely.

[GoCougs]

If it shifts as soon as I pull the paddle, then it's automatically more engaging.

Not only more responsive but can skip gears on down shifting and has legit launch control.

All in all noticeably more engaging.

[12,000 RPM]

Explain why it should have turbos. Nothing NEEDS turbos when a naturally aspirated engine can produce enough power.

Let me put it like this

Here is a dyno from an IS-F



Here is a dyno from a 650i



RC-F makes more power up top but not much has changed. BMW will be much faster on the street as well as less strained. These aren't track specials. Obviously 470 or 500 or w/e HP will make for fast car, but the way that HP is made is at odds with this car's purpose in the context of its competition. If they want to go up against ze Germans they need turbos.

[GoCougs]

Def not turbos. Camaro SS 6sp. vs. M4 6sp. tells you all you need to know, including mpg . Gear it right and have a decent power band and you're set.

[12,000 RPM]

????

M4 is faster (by a hair) and gets better gas mileage (by an MPG)

No matter though, as great as the SBC is pooprods are not an option. Truthfully neither is more displacement for this Lexus lump (I'm sure it's huge). If they want to go up against the Germans they need turbos. They already have the heads ready from their new little 2.0T. Its only a matter of time

[SVT666]

Let me put it like this

Here is a dyno from an IS-F



Here is a dyno from a 650i



RC-F makes more power up top but not much has changed. BMW will be much faster on the street as well as less strained. These aren't track specials. Obviously 470 or 500 or w/e HP will make for fast car, but the way that HP is made is at odds with this car's purpose in the context of its competition. If they want to go up against ze Germans they need turbos.

So you have gone from being pro-turbo to anti-turbo, and now back to pro-turbo?

[GoCougs]

????

M4 is faster (by a hair) and gets better gas mileage (by an MPG)

No matter though, as great as the SBC is pooprods are not an option. Truthfully neither is more displacement for this Lexus lump (I'm sure it's huge). If they want to go up against the Germans they need turbos. They already have the heads ready from their new little 2.0T. Its only a matter of time

Fine, I'll raise you the Corvette for game/set/match .

If they they do the transmission and driving experience right no one will care that an M6 or SLxx or w/e is much quicker. That this will/should be in the upper 12s is fast enough for the segment.

[12,000 RPM]

So you have gone from being pro-turbo to anti-turbo, and now back to pro-turbo?

I am pro-whatever makes sense for a car's purpose and market. This car is not for me, even if I could afford it- most likely will be too heavy, no stickshift, annoying powerband for the street compared to its competition. FWIW Im not really a fan of that whole segment but thats another discussion.

Fine, I'll raise you the Corvette for game/set/match .

If they they do the transmission and driving experience right no one will care that an M6 or SLxx or w/e is much quicker. That this will/should be in the upper 12s is fast enough for the segment.

Not really fair to compare a 2+2 GT to a sports car. And engagement/high effort is a detriment in this segment. Nobody is buying a 4400lb 650i because they want a driver's car.... lets just be honest. GT-R, 911, Z06, Viper are the driver's choices at that price point. So yea it will run 12s if you rev it to the moon, but unless you flog it it won't feel anywhere near as fast as 500 HP.

[68_427]

The 650i wont run 12s unless you rev it out either dude.

[12,000 RPM]

Obviously, but again unless you are running WOT all the time the 650i will feel and be much faster 99% of the time. Thats how people in this segment drive and is what they want

[MrH]

So now the argument is which one is faster not at WOT?  That's just throttle programming..

[cawimmer430]

The exterior is pretty interesting and daring. This and the RC are some of the better-looking Lexus products out there.

Not feeling the interior (from that shot). Seems kind of "underwhelming" compared to the in-your-face exterior.

[SVT666]

I don't know, I kinda dig the interior.

[Payman]

My Robert Cumberford design analysis...

- the trademark Lexus front grille is still hideous. I'd hate cleaning all the dead bugs from the front of this car.
- I like the headlight design. Very original and menacing. Get rid of the stupid Nike swooshes.
- the way the front fenders rise up and blend into the A pillars looks awkward, and ruins an otherwise nice profile.
- the interior looks too busy in light colours. Black with contrasting stitching would look great.
- the roof/C-pillar treatment doesn't seem appropriate for a GT car. It's something you see on a CUV.
- the rear end looks cool... like a Transformer's face. Tail lights are very original and compliment the headlights.

Verdict: will no doubt appeal to young anime and Marvel enthusiasts, but they're not the ones with $100,000 to spend on a sports car. Not too many buyers of the BMW 6 series or Jaguar F-Type will be swayed by this Toyota.

[SVT666]

My Robert Cumberford design analysis...

- the trademark Lexus front grille is still hideous. I'd hate cleaning all the dead bugs from the front of this car.
- I like the headlight design. Very original and menacing. Get rid of the stupid Nike swooshes.
- the way the front fenders rise up and blend into the A pillars looks awkward, and ruins an otherwise nice profile.
- the interior looks too busy in light colours. Black with contrasting stitching would look great.
- the roof/C-pillar treatment doesn't seem appropriate for a GT car. It's something you see on a CUV.
- the rear end looks cool... like a Transformer's face. Tail lights are very original and compliment the headlights.

Verdict: will no doubt appeal to young anime and Marvel enthusiasts, but they're not the ones with $100,000 to spend on a sports car. Not too many buyers of the BMW 6 series or Jaguar F-Type will be swayed by this Toyota.

- The grille has grown on me, but I agree with you about cleaning it.
- I think the Nike swooshes are what makes the headlights look menacing.
- Disagree.  I think they did a good job with the way the fenders flow into the A-pillar.
- I'm starting to really really like the interior.  I just think it would be a bitch to clean.
- I hate this new trend for the C pillars.  Fuck you Nissan!
- I like the rear except for the way the taillight housing droops down.

Verdict: I agree with your verdict.

[Cookie Monster]

The windshield looks way too small compared to the rest of the glass on the car, especially in the first picture.

[Payman]

The windshield looks way too small compared to the rest of the glass on the car, especially in the first picture.

Agree. The windshield looks 5-6" higher than the side glass.