Why don't cars captivate/mystify us like they used to?

[2o6]

I think it's far more about maturity and seeing what we want in a car rather than the state of automotive landscape these days.

There are a lot of cars that are engaging, but the limits of modern cars are much higher than older cars; hell my subcompact Sonic will cruise all day at 85MPH whilst feeling as solid as a rock. 15 years ago, cars in this class were total turds on the freeway, and 25 years ago they didn't last very long at all.


I think a lot of the involvement segment has gone down a couple segments, since Compact/Midsized cars IMO have always been too big to be fun to drive. I'd rather have a Fiesta ST over a Focus ST. I'd rather drive a base Mazda 2 over a Mazda 3.



I think the design aspect is overstated, it's more design by committee rather than actual passion these days; modern designs are pitched by endless focus groups and teams of designers to make a marketable, successful car. With that, I think you end up losing a lot of things that make car design unique.....most cars these days look the same (or a bit ugly).

[12,000 RPM]

There's more great cars out than ever. Stop using Jethro as a bench mark for whether a car is great or not. The dude power slides mclarens for a living. 959 is probably thrilling to him because it's something different to him.

He likes a lot of lesser cars. I pointed to the 959 report simply for the fact that they did it. Again what cars from now will be called revolutionary like the 959? What cars from now is anyone putting up posters of? What cars today excite the imagination?

Even as a metric manager and somewhat metric fetish you even see this- it's why you sold your modern BRZ for an old S2K. Well at least partially. There is something visceral that has been lost, and I think it goes beyond contrarian nostalgia.

It really hit me when I drove that Mazda3.... it was really bad. If that is the dynamic champ of compact cars we are so screwed bro.

[MrH]

He likes a lot of lesser cars. I pointed to the 959 report simply for the fact that they did it. Again what cars from now will be called revolutionary like the 959? What cars from now is anyone putting up posters of? What cars today excite the imagination?

Even as a metric manager and somewhat metric fetish you even see this- it's why you sold your modern BRZ for an old S2K. Well at least partially. There is something visceral that has been lost, and I think it goes beyond contrarian nostalgia.

It really hit me when I drove that Mazda3.... it was really bad. If that is the dynamic champ of compact cars we are so screwed bro.

I think the LaFerrari, P1, and 918 are today's poster cars.  I think they're just hitting us at an older age, where we're thinking more about how financially impossible they are instead of what they're capable of.

As for the BRZ to S2k switch, I did it for a lot of reasons.  But saying there's something visceral missing might be true, but it's not due to the progression of the auto industry.  People here are complaining about drive by wire and electric power steering.  AP2 S2000s have both.  I switched largely because I wanted a 2 seat convertible.  I was set on another NC miata, but early AP1s in good shape were close enough in price that I decided to go for something different.  The powertrain is special in the car, but there's nothing else about the car that's inherent of its time period.

I would have bought an ND instead if I had the money.

I think you're taking your shifting interests and blaming it on the auto industry.  It's not that engaging, interesting cars don't exist anymore.  It's just that you don't care.

[2o6]

I'm not sure why you're saying the Mazda 3 is"bad". It's better than the car before it.

[AutobahnSHO]

Ummmm.... the camaro thread is how long? We never talk about Teslas?

[AutobahnSHO]

Again what cars from now will be called revolutionary like the 959? What cars from now is anyone putting up posters of? What cars today excite the imagination?

Tesla
Hellcat
MX-5
M2
Camaro
Mustang
i3 or whatever it's called

[MrH]

Yeah, there's a ton of crazy good cars out today.  Some of which are amazing to drive too.  If you don't want to go out and experience them because they don't interest you, that's your problem.

[2o6]

Yeah, there's a ton of crazy good cars out today.  Some of which are amazing to drive too.  If you don't want to go out and experience them because they don't interest you, that's your problem.

This

[12,000 RPM]

I think the LaFerrari, P1, and 918 are today's poster cars.  I think they're just hitting us at an older age, where we're thinking more about how financially impossible they are instead of what they're capable of.

As for the BRZ to S2k switch, I did it for a lot of reasons.  But saying there's something visceral missing might be true, but it's not due to the progression of the auto industry.  People here are complaining about drive by wire and electric power steering.  AP2 S2000s have both.  I switched largely because I wanted a 2 seat convertible.  I was set on another NC miata, but early AP1s in good shape were close enough in price that I decided to go for something different.  The powertrain is special in the car, but there's nothing else about the car that's inherent of its time period.

I would have bought an ND instead if I had the money.

I think you're taking your shifting interests and blaming it on the auto industry.  It's not that engaging, interesting cars don't exist anymore.  It's just that you don't care.

I don't think my interests have shifted, and if they did, they haven't shifted much. I still keep up with reviews and general car news. I just put coilovers on my Civic lol. I still play about 30-60 mins of racing games a day. "Forza" is a verb in my house. So I don't think my interest has waned much... I just have less time to dedicate to this stuff.

But there has definitely been a huge shift man. The industry has changed because consumer tastes have changed. I can count the # of manual transmission 6 cylinder sedans on sale with one hand. There was a point in time where Honda was selling the RSX, S2000, TSX, TL and NSX simultaneously... look at them now. So just in the working man's realm there has definitely been a bit of a slide. But even up in the "dreamer" realm things are a bit off. The LaFerrari and that whole class still has some buzz, but I'm certain with time people will stop giving a fuck about them like we have with the Enzo. However people STILL worship the F40, the Countach etc. It's the difference between another technical milestone and a full on cultural icon. I think BGK hit the nail on the head- for better or worse the car business is much more constrained than it used to be, and by extension cars have become a lot better objectively but a lot more forgettable as well.

Seriously- any time a new car comes out, no matter how awesome it is, it seems like we are done talking about it after like 2-3 months max. Why is that? Is it because of how we consume media or are the cars just not as interesting?

[12,000 RPM]

Yeah, there's a ton of crazy good cars out today.  Some of which are amazing to drive too.  If you don't want to go out and experience them because they don't interest you, that's your problem.

Nobody is saying the cars are bad, just not memorable or captivating. I drive different cars every chance I get

[MrH]

It's how we're consuming the info I think.  Honda may not have a lot of enthusiast cars right now, but they just hunkered down during the recession when it came to enthusiast development.  Now we're starting to see things come out from them again.

New Civic Type R is supposed to be incredible.  Rumors of a new S2000 are going around.  NSX came out.

And I think the P1 will be worshiped like the F40.  Just needs some time.

[AutobahnSHO]

Oh and
GT

[CALL_911]

I agree with that

[12,000 RPM]

CTR reviews are out and they are so-so. Same money as the Golf R class but not as good. Hardcore in a "teenager running a straight pipe and cut springs" way, not the neurotically perfect Type-R of the past. And rumors of returning S2Ks and the like have been swirling since their deaths. Plus look at the current NSX. I don't think anyone was expecting or wanting an NA3 but again this new one came and went w/o a peep.

The way we consume info may have a big impact though, I will give you that. Same time though the bulk of new cars are very iterative. One could literally probably make a formula to predict the specs of the next iteration of a car in a segment. Where is the fun in that, when a lot of the time the added performance comes with a loss of engagement and innovation?

[Cookie Monster]

In 15-20 years, how many new-gen Civics do you think will be riced or thrashed around an autox course or race track like the EF/EG/EKs are now? Driving involvement has gone down big time across the board, and not just because a lot of the sportier and more fun cars have been killed off.

Sporty has a great point about the F40. That car is still worshiped today while the F50 and Enzo have been largely forgotten. Same with E30 M3s. Sure, the E36 was a relative turd in comparison, but even E46's don't have (and probably never will have) the same sort of cult following. Cars as a whole have become a lot less engaging, which is why I think saying that there are better cars now than ever before is absurd. It's why everyone basically creamed their pants when Mazda made such a big effort to keep the ND true to its roots. No one else has been doing that and it shows.

I think the P1/LaFerrari/918 will be respected for the performance figures they can achieve but I still don't think they'll ever touch the 959/F40.

[2o6]

I think its a generational thing. I don't give a shit about the 959 or F40.



But I adored the Enzo and Veyron

[12,000 RPM]

I think its a generational thing. I don't give a shit about the 959 or F40.

INFIDEL!!!!!!!

And I disagree about the E36. It was the "It Was Written" of the M3s. Hard to follow up on a complete game changer... but it was still excellent in its own right. For my money I'd go for the E36 10 out of 10 times. But I would probably get an E46 over any of the M3s that followed.

[MX793]

E36 is easily the most forgettable of the M3s.  Not as raw or pure as the E30 and not as capable as the E46 and later generations.  I've always looked at it the same as I view the S14 generation of Nissan Silvia:  kind of watered down.

[MrH]

I think its a generational thing. I don't give a shit about the 959 or F40.



But I adored the Enzo and Veyron

Exactly.  I'm already starting to see that my car tastes are always going to be big into late 90's, early 2000's.  Because that's what I fell in love with as a kid.  FD RX-7, S2000, etc remind me of being younger.

When I'm 60, I'll probably swoon over the same cars still to some degree.

[Cookie Monster]

INFIDEL!!!!!!!

And I disagree about the E36. It was the "It Was Written" of the M3s. Hard to follow up on a complete game changer... but it was still excellent in its own right. For my money I'd go for the E36 10 out of 10 times. But I would probably get an E46 over any of the M3s that followed.

Not really. Boring looks, watered down S50/S52 compared to the Euro spec, etc. The E46 was a much better M3.

[Rich]

In 15-20 years, how many new-gen Civics do you think will be riced or thrashed around an autox course or race track like the EF/EG/EKs are now? Driving involvement has gone down big time across the board, and not just because a lot of the sportier and more fun cars have been killed off.

Sporty has a great point about the F40. That car is still worshiped today while the F50 and Enzo have been largely forgotten. Same with E30 M3s. Sure, the E36 was a relative turd in comparison, but even E46's don't have (and probably never will have) the same sort of cult following. Cars as a whole have become a lot less engaging, which is why I think saying that there are better cars now than ever before is absurd. It's why everyone basically creamed their pants when Mazda made such a big effort to keep the ND true to its roots. No one else has been doing that and it shows.

I think the P1/LaFerrari/918 will be respected for the performance figures they can achieve but I still don't think they'll ever touch the 959/F40.

The new Camaro v8 and v6 put up numbers and "feel" much better than the segment was expecting.  I think the speed and weight of the new Miata shocked most when reviews came out. 

On the high end?  there's a few cars running around with 700-1,000hp so our expectations have gotten a collective meh.  Bugatti would have to come out with a 3,000 hp 3,500-4,000 lb car for me to be wowed

[12,000 RPM]

Not really. Boring looks, watered down S50/S52 compared to the Euro spec, etc. The E46 was a much better M3.

E46 was definitely better, but in many ways it was just a warmed over Euro E36. Even still though, I agree and I don't. US E36 is justifiably the red headed stepchild of the M3 line, but it was still brilliant and head and shoulders above anything like it for the $$$ in its day. I think it's fairer to look at it as a predecessor to the 330i ZHP and 335i than a real M3.

To be completely honest I would get an E36 over an E30 any day of the week. But the E30 is by far a more interesting and important car just from the simple fact that there would be no E36/E46/E90/F80 etc without it, and there was not much like it before it. That kind of boldness/risk is exactly what is missing today IMO.

[Rupert]

It's pretty tough to give a shit about any of the megasuperduperabsurdcars, I'll give you that.

[Rupert]

Exactly.  I'm already starting to see that my car tastes are always going to be big into late 90's, early 2000's.  Because that's what I fell in love with as a kid.  FD RX-7, S2000, etc remind me of being younger.

When I'm 60, I'll probably swoon over the same cars still to some degree.

That, or retro '90s cars. Such jelly bean!

[12,000 RPM]

The new Camaro v8 and v6 put up numbers and "feel" much better than the segment was expecting.  I think the speed and weight of the new Miata shocked most when reviews came out. 

On the high end?  there's a few cars running around with 700-1,000hp so our expectations have gotten a collective meh.  Bugatti would have to come out with a 3,000 hp 3,500-4,000 lb car for me to be wowed

I would be more wowed by a car like VTEC Inside described- <3000lbs, practical, good steering, ~225HP with an obedient throttle pedal. It's easy to make a technological achievement than a simple driver's car. Toyobaru came very, very close but not quite there.

[2o6]

I think price of entry has really made cars less inspiring for young people to own. It's hard to get into a car when basically you need at least 3500 to find a runnin car, and insurance is basically unplayable for you if you're under 21.

[Cookie Monster]

You don't necessarily need $3500 to find a running car. Plus cars are lasting longer and longer now so even a 10 year old car with high miles still has a lot of life left in it.

[2o6]

Idk man, having bought and flipped cars anything under like 2k gets really dodgy or really boring.

[AutobahnSHO]

I think its a generational thing. I don't give a shit about the 959 or F40.

But I adored the Enzo and Veyron

+1

Mine were the 959, the "new" Dodge Ram look (previous to early 90s they were square up front). The Miata and the original SHO were my "want want want!" cars.

[AutobahnSHO]

Idk man, having bought and flipped cars anything under like 2k gets really dodgy or really boring.

The market changed with the 2008 recession- used cars are generally more expensive as less people buy new.