Ooof.... Alpha platform can't catch a break.

[CALL_911]

They don't, that was kind of my point. 

In other words I'd love to drive that combo, but it doesn't exist so I cannot do it.

D'urrrr gotcha

[MrH]

Camaro has had the edge in performance, but the Rustang has always been the better car in everything outside of performance, which is still critical for something that does street duty. For anything less than the SS, unless you absolutely need the cheesy image the Camaro presents I'm thinking a Genesis Coupe or 370Z will yield similar or better performance with more practicality & visibility. All the performance in the world is useless if you can't place the car on the road.

The Genesis Coupe and 370Z both suck to drive though.   I'll easily trade a little visibility for a better driving car any day.

[12,000 RPM]

It's not just a "little" visibility though. It's not like going from a coupe to a convertible with the top up. It's like going from a convertible with the top down to an armored truck. And I'd say a car I can't see out of sucks to drive by default. Maybe on a big wide empty track but in traffic? Fuggedabatit

Im still giggling at how certain you were that the 'analysts' got it right Right, GM's analysts have never been wrong before

[MrH]

I still don't get why you're on a crusade about this platform.  It's crushing its rivals in actual handling dynamics.  I wouldn't say the platform is what's holding back cadillac from selling well at all.

[GoCougs]

Mos def - Alpha and a few others (MQB) are the boiler plate of how to do things right.

[2o6]

Yeah, product and platform don't always go hand in hand. Cadillac misjudged the market when they crafted the CTS and ATS.


Besides, pretty sure the Verano got canceled because a similar type car is being ported to Cadillac.

[12,000 RPM]

There's no crusade, just an ongoing case study. Nobody is doubting the Alpha's dynamic superiority- the point is they prioritized the wrong things and sacrificed damn near everything else. What % of the time does someone in this segment utilize their car's dynamic prowess vs the infotainment system or back seat?

Lol @ this being how to do things right- all Alpha variants are down in sales over the generations they replaced in a growing market. Lexus ES, new C Class, Q50, these are variations on how to Do Things Right™ in this market.

[2o6]

That doesn't mean the platform can't be retweaked.


Also, the ES is basically a Camry, and the C-class can be made capable as the Alpha cars if needed.




It's interesting you have it out for the Alpha platform, but don't say shit about the Alfa Giulia; a car that is basically DOA. Or the LX cars and the Maserati Ghibli, a car that is a reworked LX car - all of which "sell well" but are generally not great.

[Raza]

No way in hell are either of those more practical than the Camaro. We can call it a wash (especially since the Z has no rear seats) but they're def not better!

I can (and do) make do with a two-seater.  I cannot make do without being able to see out of the car.  Ergo......

[MrH]

What are you talking about?  The C-Class is literally following in the footsteps of the Alpha platform on how to do mass scale platform sharing.  And the Alpha platform arguably does it better.

There's a million reasons why the C-Class is selling and the ATS isn't.  And it has nothing to do with the platform they're on.

[12,000 RPM]

That doesn't mean the platform can't be retweaked.


Also, the ES is basically a Camry, and the C-class can be made capable as the Alpha cars if needed.




It's interesting you have it out for the Alpha platform, but don't say shit about the Alfa Giulia; a car that is basically DOA. Or the LX cars and the Maserati Ghibli, a car that is a reworked LX car - all of which "sell well" but are generally not great.

LX cars are doing their job at next to no cost to FCA. Are they great or class leading? Nope, but they have long recouped their investment, and demonstrated you don't have to "play the German's game" to win. And I've def spoke on the Giulia and Ghibli. Thing with them is everyone knows FCA is full of crap so there's not the same frenzied fanboism. I think even Raza tempered his enthusiasm for the Giulia.

I've said it before and I still believe it- GM could have made do without the Alpha platform, and the CTS replacement should have been Epsilon based, with a focus on luxury over sport.

[12,000 RPM]

There's a million reasons why the C-Class is selling and the ATS isn't.  And it has nothing to do with the platform they're on.

Which is my point Cadillac could have built something as striking and luxurious as the C-Class on an existing FWD platform. Audi has been making do with FWD platforms in these segments for years and is thoroughly washing the ATS/CTS in sales. I don't think you can write that off to brand either- Audi's products are simply a better fit for the market.

[MrH]

  So they could have made something as striking and luxurious as the C-Class on an existing FWD platform?  Or they could have done it on the Alpha platform.  You're proving my point that the platform has nothing to do with the lack of sales.

[2o6]

Having FOUR Epsilon cars would have been entirely redundant. Especially since the XTS is Epsilon based, and can't reach the level of luxury the CTS and CT6 can.

[12,000 RPM]

  So they could have made something as striking and luxurious as the C-Class on an existing FWD platform?  Or they could have done it on the Alpha platform.  You're proving my point that the platform has nothing to do with the lack of sales.

You're proving MY point, that they didn't have to dump a billion dollars into a brand new platform if using an existing, fully developed and amortized platform would have yielded the same (or IMO better) result. I say better because if they had built around the Epsilon platform they would have focused on everything but dynamics which would have yielded a better product for the intended market.

Having FOUR Epsilon cars would have been entirely redundant. Especially since the XTS is Epsilon based, and can't reach the level of luxury the CTS and CT6 can.

Audi currently has SIX models on the MLB platform, and fleet sales or not the XTS handily outsells the A8 like 4-5:1. If anything building a wide array of vehicles off of one platform demonstrates the versatility of the platform. The buyers don't care what platforms the cars they buy are on, as long as the car fits their wants and needs.

[2o6]

MLB is a different platform, designed from the ground up to be incredibly flexible and modular.



Epsilon isn't.


Secondly, One billion dollars isn't that high. I just read that VW put 70 Billion GBP in developing the new MQB platform





Secondly....as I've said like eight times now, a lot of the Alpha's design basis comes from the older, heavier Zeta platform.

[MrH]

Why would using the epison platform yield better results?

A few lines down, you say "buyers don't care what platform the cars they buy are on".  Every damn post you're contradicting yourself.  Why are you harping on the alpha platform if it doesn't matter?

[2o6]

Why would using the epison platform yield better results?

A few lines down, you say "buyers don't care what platform the cars they buy are on".  Every damn post you're contradicting yourself.  Why are you harping on the alpha platform if it doesn't matter?

I'm pretty sure Epsilon's hard points are a lot less liberal than these new modular platforms; the LaCrosse/XTS/Impala/Malibu share a hell of a lot proportionally.

[veeman]

I don't think this has anything to do with platform.  People buying German sport sedans aren't cross shopping Cadillac because they think they should be cheaper, have a better warranty, and better resale.  I think the resale issue is particularly problematic because these buyers usually have some disposable income and don't keep there cars for 10 years plus.  Your Lexus or Infiniti sport sedan buyer gets a better price, better reliability, and good resale.  Their dealerships usually have a great track record for coddling their customers too.  Cadillac doesn't have any of that.  Although I don't have first hand knowledge, I really doubt Cadillac dealerships are on the same level as their Japanese or German counterparts with regards to customer coddling and luxury amenities.  I really hope Cadillac doesn't scrap its current line-up and start making Lexus ES clones on the cheap.

I know lots of people who look forward to their first BMW, Audi, Mercedes, or Lexus sport sedan/coupe purchase.  Caddy doesn't ever seriously get entertained in the thought process.  They look at the MSRP and likely residual value and scoff.  More importantly the brand stands for an old man's car. 

If they keep winning magazine comparos, fix up user interface issues with the infotainment system, and do something regarding longer warranty and/or guaranteed residuals (which is going to cost them lots of money), they may have a future chance in this segment.  Otherwise, the future is not bright for their cars. 

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

I can (and do) make do with a two-seater.  I cannot make do without being able to see out of the car.  Ergo......

ive done the same. But it's no way you can call a Z more PRACTICLE than any of the Pony Cars....

[MX793]

Caddy torpedoed their "aspirational vehicle" credibility after building 20-25 years of soft, floaty, cheaply built land yachts for octogenarians.  It'll take them at least as long to wipe out that stigma.

As to the Camaro's lackluster sales, theories abound.  I spent some time perusing the Camaro6 forums response to the horrible May sales.  I saw a number of hypotheses pitched by members/owners.  These included:
1.  Price is too high (several Gen5 owners chimed in that they were going to trade their Gen5s on a Gen6, but were turned off by the price)
2.  Looks too much like the outgoing model / average Joe car buyer doesn't realize it's an all new car
3.  Lack of advertising/marketing
4.  Limited availability at dealerships / Dealers only stocking loaded up cars (see 1 above)
5.  Car was designed to appeal to current Gen5 Camaro owners, not a wider audience (didn't address most of the issues that turned off many who previously considered the Gen5 but bought something else)

[12,000 RPM]

Why would using the epison platform yield better results?

A few lines down, you say "buyers don't care what platform the cars they buy are on".  Every damn post you're contradicting yourself.  Why are you harping on the alpha platform if it doesn't matter?

Don't turn your reading comprehension to zero and then blame me for not being able to follow.

Generally speaking, luxury customers don't care about platforms. So it was dumb for GM to develop an all new one (Alpha) when they already HAD an all new platform they deem usable for Cadillac (Epsilon II underpins the XT5 & XTS). An Epsilon II based CTS replacement would have saved them billions of dollars, enabled/forced them to focus on making the car luxurious rather than sporty (which customers in the segment want) and probably would have moved the same or more volume while being way more profitable. Again look no further than the ES or the MKZ for proof of this. Do you copy, or did you leave your brain at home today?

I'm pretty sure Epsilon's hard points are a lot less liberal than these new modular platforms; the LaCrosse/XTS/Impala/Malibu share a hell of a lot proportionally.

Lacrosse/Impala/XTS etc are a subplatform (P2xx) of the Epsilon platform. Epsilon II underpins everything from the new Malibu to the XT5/new Acadia and the XTS triplets. It has range.

[12,000 RPM]

Caddy torpedoed their "aspirational vehicle" credibility after building 20-25 years of soft, floaty, cheaply built land yachts for octogenarians.  It'll take them at least as long to wipe out that stigma.

All the domestic luxury brands had to overcome that stigma, and in some ways they all have. Escalade was and is a grand slam. 300 was a grand slam and is doing OK. Lincoln has been pretty hit or miss, but the MKC (Escape), MKZ (Fusion) and MKX (Edge) are pretty good, and again dirt cheap to develop compared to the ATS/CTS. I think where Caddy screwed up is in thinking they could go toe to toe with the Germans in every aspect- segments and price. That was a mistake. The domestic luxury brands have succeeded in creating their own niches (Escalade/Navigator, 300) or jumping into segments of growth or low competition (compact CUVs). 3 & 5 series segments are insanely competitive and completely saturated... the CTS' original play as a 5 for 3 money was the only way they could fight directly.

[MrH]

So you want the entire Cadillac line to be FWD, transverse based?  And you want this based on the development cost of the Alpha platform?

The R&D costs for the Alpha platform are pegged at $1 billion.  IHS is showing a projection of 1.7 million vehicles to be produced off of it through CY 2023.  The money isn't the problem.  Amortize that out, and you're at way less than a grand a vehicle.  There are part commonization that saves you even more.

They're literally doing the exact same thing Mercedes and VW are doing.  Modular FWD platform, modular RWD platform.  You're arguing that Cadillac should have scrapped the idea of RWD cars in totality?  You want them to compete with the big players in the segment, but they chop off their balls and just make them Buick clones?

[2o6]

Don't turn your reading comprehension to zero and then blame me for not being able to follow.

Generally speaking, luxury customers don't care about platforms. So it was dumb for GM to develop an all new one (Alpha) when they already HAD an all new platform they deem usable for Cadillac (Epsilon II underpins the XT5 & XTS). An Epsilon II based CTS replacement would have saved them billions of dollars, enabled/forced them to focus on making the car luxurious rather than sporty (which customers in the segment want) and probably would have moved the same or more volume while being way more profitable. Again look no further than the ES or the MKZ for proof of this. Do you copy, or did you leave your brain at home today?Lacrosse/Impala/XTS etc are a subplatform (P2xx) of the Epsilon platform. Epsilon II underpins everything from the new Malibu to the XT5/new Acadia and the XTS triplets. It has range.

XT5 is a new platform.... (and yet again isn't ALL NEW) .


It's on the new, C1XX, E2XX, which is a reworked Epsilon II. (and replaces Lambda, Theta, Theta Premium, and Epsilon II, as well as whatever old ass holdouts). The XT5 is the FIRST car on this platform, with the new Acadia being the 2nd one.


Same way that the D2XX platform is a reworked GM Delta II. The first car on this new D2XX is the lastest Cruze and Astra, as well as the Buick Envision.




The Alpha and Omega platforms are the latest RWD platforms that are an evolution of Sigma, Zeta, uniting those two, making them more streamlined and making them lighter.



It's not rocket science.


An epsilon Cadillac would have never worked.

[MX793]

All the domestic luxury brands had to overcome that stigma, and in some ways they all have. Escalade was and is a grand slam. 300 was a grand slam and is doing OK. Lincoln has been pretty hit or miss, but the MKC (Escape), MKZ (Fusion) and MKX (Edge) are pretty good, and again dirt cheap to develop compared to the ATS/CTS. I think where Caddy screwed up is in thinking they could go toe to toe with the Germans in every aspect- segments and price. That was a mistake. The domestic luxury brands have succeeded in creating their own niches (Escalade/Navigator, 300) or jumping into segments of growth or low competition (compact CUVs). 3 & 5 series segments are insanely competitive and completely saturated... the CTS' original play as a 5 for 3 money was the only way they could fight directly.

Chrysler was never really a luxury brand.  They were barely premium.  More a Buick/Oldsmobile or Mercury competitor than Lincoln or Caddy.

Lincoln isn't really an aspirational brand anymore.  Haven't been for a long time.  They have and have had a few models that have proven popular, but nobody shows up to their Lincoln dealer and pays sticker save some elderly drivers who remember Lincoln's glory days.  College kids and 20 somethings don't dream of landing their first big job or big promotion so they can run out and buy a brand new Lincoln.

Outside of the Escalade, Caddy is in a similar boat as Lincoln.  Perhaps slightly better off given a more consistent product plan.

[2o6]

So you want the entire Cadillac line to be FWD, transverse based?  And you want this based on the development cost of the Alpha platform?

The R&D costs for the Alpha platform are pegged at $1 billion.  IHS is showing a projection of 1.7 million vehicles to be produced off of it through CY 2023.  The money isn't the problem.  Amortize that out, and you're at way less than a grand a vehicle.  There are part commonization that saves you even more.

They're literally doing the exact same thing Mercedes and VW are doing.  Modular FWD platform, modular RWD platform.  You're arguing that Cadillac should have scrapped the idea of RWD cars in totality?  You want them to compete with the big players in the segment, but they chop off their balls and just make them Buick clones?

Yeah, I don't think GM invested a fraction of what VW did.

D2XX was only $220 million....yet MQB was like 50 billion +


Plus, if "drive wheels" don't matter, why did Audi develop MLB at all? MLB's all longitudinal engine based cars. There's a refinement issue that MLB has over MQB, otherwise Audi would have never used MLB.

[12,000 RPM]

So you want the entire Cadillac line to be FWD, transverse based?  And you want this based on the development cost of the Alpha platform?

I want every Cadillac model to be profitable and in demand.

The R&D costs for the Alpha platform are pegged at $1 billion.  IHS is showing a projection of 1.7 million vehicles to be produced off of it through CY 2023.  The money isn't the problem.  Amortize that out, and you're at way less than a grand a vehicle.  There are part commonization that saves you even more.

Those are some optimistic ass numbers from IHS (there goes your faith in those analysts again ). Last year the ATS/CTS sold about 80K worldwide. Like 95% of that volume is in the US and China... probably 70% is in the US, and sales of both cars are tanking here. CT6 is a non factor. Camaro looks like it's gonna do 70K this year, but like MX793 said the 5th gen's market isn't into it and cars like this usually trail off in sales after the release. Nobody is buying Camaros out of the US/Canada either. So absolute best case scenario is like 150K/yr and prob gonna trail off... no way are they gonna hit 1.7m.

Plus even if that's only a couple hundred per car... how much does that compare to the five figure discounts they have to apply to get people to buy these things? Why aren't people buying them.... a bunch of reasons but a biggie is platform based. The rear seat and trunk on all Alpha cars is a good clip behind the competition. Not an issue with the previous CTS and an issue GM specifically sought to address with the Epsilon II platform

They're literally doing the exact same thing Mercedes and VW are doing.  Modular FWD platform, modular RWD platform.  You're arguing that Cadillac should have scrapped the idea of RWD cars in totality?  You want them to compete with the big players in the segment, but they chop off their balls and just make them Buick clones?

Right.... VW's entrant in these segments (Audi) is built around a modular FWD platform. Just like the Epsilon II

Only place RWD dynamics still matter on a high volume scale is Europe, which just happens to be a place that always has, still does, and always will want absolutely nothing to do with Cadillac. So developing cars within the framework and requirements of Europe was fucking retarded. Yes I think RWD was a mistake. Again Audi has shown for 20+ years people are OK with paying big $$$$ for a FWD car. Lincoln's new Continental generated way more buzz than the CT6, despite starting with wrong wheel drive. And FWD lines up with exactly what Cadillac's only realistic markets want- big comfy interiors. US & China have completely shit roads so this idea that there are hundreds of thousands of folks looking for canyon carvers is ridiculous. Especially in the guise of 3500-4000lb cars. Again there is a good reason the ES is the top selling luxury sedan and Audi continues to succeed here. Alpha platform for Cadillac's cars was a huge mistake and I called it long before it all came to be

[CaminoRacer]

IDGAF about sales. Gimme dat handling and power. GM rocks.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

IDGAF about sales. Gimme dat handling and power. GM rocks.

WORD...