The New E-Class Coupe

[12,000 RPM]

If luxury car buyers gave a damn about merely "getting the job done" they'd all buy Toyota Corollas instead, because a Corolla will do everything a luxury car buyer will ever ask of their Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, etc. with a lot less trouble going about it.

Whether luxury car buyers know how many cylinders their car's engine has or not is immaterial: they know enough to know eight is more than six and six is more than four and four-cylinders are mostly found under the hoods of cars for the hoi polloi ergo a luxury car with a four-cylinder is a 'lesser' car. That's all they need to know.

Wanting a luxury car <> wanting the absolute top of the top best of the best. By this logic why get an ES350 when you can get an S600 Maybach?

The "job" here isn't moving the car from point A to B.... it's about having the luxury of excess available performance, which any 14 second car on the street has. FFS, a 328iA is within a couple of tenths through the quarter behind an E46 M3. That's more than enough.

And as for the NVH, luxury cars are so isolated from their engines these days manufacturers have resorted to pumping fake engine noise into the cabin. You combine that with electronic + fluid filled engine mounts and an I4 can sound/feel like a V12. Engine balance is a factor but it's just one of many.

For me a 4 banger Bimmer is still wrong just on principle but the config definitely works on an objective level and in the context of its intended duty. I would still pony up for the 6 but for someone who doesn't care about engine harmonics or quarter mile times a 2.0T is a good choice.

[Raza]

A 4 cylinder BMW is just wrong....*the car that made the M performance brand was a 4 cylinder* 

[Eye of the Tiger]

A 4 cylinder BMW is just wrong....*the car that made the M performance brand was a 4 cylinder* 

You're both wrong ...

[cawimmer430]

You further reinforce that European ideas on "high mileage" and "reliability" are very different from American.  100,000 kms on a 6-7 year old vehicle would not be considered remotely high mileage in America.  That works out to about the average miles driven annually.

100,000 km is little by American standards, but also think about how we attain that mileage here in Germany. We have the Autobahn here and we do drive fast. My dad loves speeding. Driving fast places enormous stress on the suspension and engine, even if it was built with sustained high speeds in mind. My parents are traveling across Europe with the E350 CGI, even Eastern Europe where the roads aren't that great and so forth. The car is holding up well - as any modern car should.

Also, we had an '85 Mercedes 300SE W126 which we kept until 2008. By the time we sold it to a classic car dealer it had a little over 200,000 km on it and throughout its stay with our family the only thing that ever failed was a loose screw on a generator in the engine compartment which made clanging noises. Fixed for free at the next Benz dealership.

The Mercedes R129 was a very complex car at the time of its launch in 1989. My dad has a 1989 (one of the first 500 cars made!) 500SL and that thing has been dead reliable. Currently has over 200,000 km. Is it high maintenance? Not really. Change the oil and wear and tear materials and you're good to go. The only thing which is really "high maintenance" is the roof folding mechanism. That has to be adjusted every 50,000 km or so, but for the most part this car has never missed a beat. By today's standards it might not come across as a complex car, but it is. There's a lot of technology in this car which was novel at the time. It still works.

All I'm saying is, I can't relate to these constant reliability horror stories of owning European cars which "everyone" seems to talk about. 

Even if better than the last generation of I4s, it's still a rougher and less refined motor than their 6-cylinder offerings.  Mercedes is sold as a premium luxury brand in America.  I'd accept that 4-cylinders are acceptable in compact premium offerings.  I personally don't believe that a 4-cylinder is acceptable at any trim level in a premium/luxury midsize car like the E-class or 5-series, but the market disagrees with me.  That said, there should still be a smoother, 6-cylinder or greater option without having to turn to AMG in this class of car.

I get that a 4-cylinder "will never match" a 6/8/10/12-cylinder for smoothness, but even you have to admit that current 4-cylinder motors are pretty damn sweet.

Do you remember the days of when 4-cylinders were rough and agricultural and basically "unsuitable" for being used in luxury cars? I do. Those days are mostly over. The modern 4-cylinder engine has made great strides in NVH. And if you don't want a 4-cylinder engine in a luxury car then don't buy one. Be glad that some brands offer you a choice. 

Part of what makes luxury, IMO, is giving consumers the CHOICE of what they want to drive. It's all about personalizing their cars. If a a consumer wants a generously equipped E-Class, but places more emphasis on fuel economy and accepts the refinement "drawback" of a 4-cylinder over a 6/8-cylinder, then that's that their choice.

I don't have a problem with a 4-cylinder in a luxury car. In fact I prefer it to a 6- or 8-cylinder because I care more about fuel economy and range. And for me the performance of a modern 4-cylinder engine is more than satisfactory, especially those offered in premium cars. If I could I'd love to have a current C-Class Wagon in 220d trim. For me that would be the ideal car based on my needs and expectations. 

[GoCougs]

IDK Man, I think you guys are off your fuckin rocker. I've driven a lot of cars at the BMW dealer, and I'd take the BMW 2.0T in the 528i over the old as hell 530/535i's I6. The 2.0T is more tractable, has about the same NVH, and mostly most customers don't fuckin notice. It's faster than the old car with better economy.

That's the point - only goes to show the farce of the luxury segment. Put BMW or M-B badging on a V6 Camcord and literally 80%+ luxury car buyers would never be able to tell.

The rash of 2.0T engines are sucky - sure, they get a car on down the road but compared to the 10-year-old V6 in an Accord or Camry, they're less powerful, rougher, sound crappier, won't last as long, and be murder on repair bills.

[cawimmer430]

Don't talk to us about reliability Mr 8 coil packs on a 4 banger engine

Germans love to say Americans don't know how to take care of our cars because we aren't willing to sink ungodly sums of $$$$ into unreliable turds. The only companies that are still having problems with shit like fuel pumps and injector coils are the Germans. They like to blame customers for their design shortcomings.

First, BMW didn't produce those ignition coils. They were made by a supplier company and when BMW issued their recall for these faulty ignition coils I received four new ones and even four new injectors free of charge - even though my car was out of warranty at the time.



Second, I still maintain that my BMW 1er is a reliable car. It started out a little unreliable due to the ignition coil issues (and the only ignition coils affected were always the last two way behind the front axle) but it's never missed a beat since. This is my daily driver. I used it almost every day. It starts up, it works, I can speed on the highway, it brings me to a job and back home and the next day it starts up again. Last week I finally made it past 100,000 km and I am looking forward to another 100,000 km with it.

Sure, the ignition coils were a major issue with the car. The only real major issue with it. Was it annoying? Yes, but to BMWs credit the car was fixed within a day. Last year I had a broken taillight which was fixed at the next BMW dealership for less than a Euro. Big deal... Everything else works fine and makes no impression of failing any time soon.

Think of it this way. There's an employee at your workplace who started out a little untrustworthy. They don't get stuff done on time and don't keep their promises. They're unreliable. But after you've had a talk with them they make an effort to do well and they improve upon themselves. They become reliable and earn your employee of the month title for the next few months/years. So cut them some slack the next time they screw up! 

No, seriously. I don't want to sound like a fanboy since I am not. Am I the biggest 1er fan? Not really. I would have gone for something else but remember that I inherited this car from my sister. I'm not gonna say no to that! And it's way more fun to drive than any current Corolla, which might be more reliable overall, but is dull to look at and dull to drive. Even though the driving experience isn't really top of my priorities list, you have to admit that switching from a RWD 1er to a FWD Corolla is a huge step down.




Third, go search the Internet and you will find other manufacturers who like to blame their customers for the problems their cars are experiencing. Here's one for you...

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/lexus.html

Seems like their famed customer treatment has been slipping. 

[cawimmer430]

A 4 cylinder BMW is just wrong....*the car that made the M performance brand was a 4 cylinder* 

Spot on!

It's really funny when people, so-called "car enthusiasts", claim that "A 4-cylinder Porsche is not a real Porsche."

Umm, what's this then? Oh yeah, a faster Beetle... 

[2o6]

100,000 km is little by American standards, but also think about how we attain that mileage here in Germany. We have the Autobahn here and we do drive fast. My dad loves speeding. Driving fast places enormous stress on the suspension and engine, even if it was built with sustained high speeds in mind. My parents are traveling across Europe with the E350 CGI, even Eastern Europe where the roads aren't that great and so forth. The car is holding up well - as any modern car should.

Also, we had an '85 Mercedes 300SE W126 which we kept until 2008. By the time we sold it to a classic car dealer it had a little over 200,000 km on it and throughout its stay with our family the only thing that ever failed was a loose screw on a generator in the engine compartment which made clanging noises. Fixed for free at the next Benz dealership.

The Mercedes R129 was a very complex car at the time of its launch in 1989. My dad has a 1989 (one of the first 500 cars made!) 500SL and that thing has been dead reliable. Currently has over 200,000 km. Is it high maintenance? Not really. Change the oil and wear and tear materials and you're good to go. The only thing which is really "high maintenance" is the roof folding mechanism. That has to be adjusted every 50,000 km or so, but for the most part this car has never missed a beat. By today's standards it might not come across as a complex car, but it is. There's a lot of technology in this car which was novel at the time. It still works.

All I'm saying is, I can't relate to these constant reliability horror stories of owning European cars which "everyone" seems to talk about. 

A car in the US with as few miles on it as yours, would be considered "low miles". 65K miles (100,000 kms) on a 2007 is nothing.

I just bought a Scion tC that needs repair with 146k = 234,000Kms; same year as your 1 series, but still considered fairly worth something despite it's miles.

Wanting a luxury car <> wanting the absolute top of the top best of the best. By this logic why get an ES350 when you can get an S600 Maybach?

The "job" here isn't moving the car from point A to B.... it's about having the luxury of excess available performance, which any 14 second car on the street has. FFS, a 328iA is within a couple of tenths through the quarter behind an E46 M3. That's more than enough.

And as for the NVH, luxury cars are so isolated from their engines these days manufacturers have resorted to pumping fake engine noise into the cabin. You combine that with electronic + fluid filled engine mounts and an I4 can sound/feel like a V12. Engine balance is a factor but it's just one of many.

For me a 4 banger Bimmer is still wrong just on principle but the config definitely works on an objective level and in the context of its intended duty. I would still pony up for the 6 but for someone who doesn't care about engine harmonics or quarter mile times a 2.0T is a good choice.

Having driven these cars, most customers won't be able to tell the difference between the 4cyl or 6cyl, except the 6cyl is faster.


I think you guys are vastly overstating the differences in refinement for these cars.

[cawimmer430]

A car in the US with as few miles on it as yours, would be considered "low miles". 65K miles (100,000 kms) on a 2007 is nothing.

I just bought a Scion tC that needs repair with 146k = 234,000Kms; same year as your 1 series, but still considered fairly worth something despite it's miles.

Yeah, I realize it's nothing for Americans.

At the same time I could argue that my 100,000 km were attained with many high speed trips on the Autobahn. Believe me, speed is addicting and even though I mostly drive with fuel economy in mind, there will be times when I'm just pushing my car to the limit on a stretch of Autobahn with no speed limits. Contrary to popular belief the roads in Germany are in dire need of repair. Many sections of Autobahn aren't smooth and have imperfections in the road surface which you feel when you speed over them. High speed = stress and wear and tear on a car. 

Anyway, I'm not trying to get into a mileage argument here. Clearly Americans and Europeans think differently about this. 100,000 km here is probably a benchmark from the '50s and '60s when most cars would fall apart at 50,000 km - if they even made it to that mileage.

[MrH]

Wimmer, hate to break it to you, but the vast, vast majority of parts on cars are made by suppliers.  No OEM is making their own ignition coils

If you think the Autobahn is in bad shape...wow.  It's perfection over there compared to what we have in the states.  Some areas are like a war zone.

I'm also on pace to break 100,000 km in about 3 years in the 4Runner.  I fully expect this thing to go 300,000+ km before I get rid of it.  That's typical for these.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Spot on!

It's really funny when people, so-called "car enthusiasts", claim that "A 4-cylinder Porsche is not a real Porsche."

Umm, what's this then? Oh yeah, a faster Beetle... 

Faster and slightly way better looking.

[Morris Minor]

Spot on!

It's really funny when people, so-called "car enthusiasts", claim that "A 4-cylinder Porsche is not a real Porsche."

Umm, what's this then? Oh yeah, a faster Beetle... 

One of my favorite color combinations: blue over red interior.

[GoCougs]

That's the point - only goes to show the farce of the luxury segment. Put BMW or M-B badging on a V6 Camcord and literally 80%+ luxury car buyers would never be able to tell.

The rash of 2.0T engines are sucky - sure, they get a car on down the road but compared to the 10-year-old V6 in an Accord or Camry, they're less powerful, rougher, sound crappier, won't last as long, and be murder on repair bills.

I should also add, imagine what these Japanese V6s would look like today if they hadn't stopped progress. We'd probably be looking at ~350 hp of rock-solid, buttery smooth N/A silkiness ze Germans could only dream of. Bit of a shame really.

[FoMoJo]

Spot on!

It's really funny when people, so-called "car enthusiasts", claim that "A 4-cylinder Porsche is not a real Porsche."

Umm, what's this then? Oh yeah, a faster Beetle... 

My favourite Speedster...



Ivory with red interior. Picture doesn't do it justice.

[12,000 RPM]

A 4 cylinder BMW is just wrong....*the car that made the M performance brand was a 4 cylinder* 

1, no

2, that was the first and last 4 cylinder M car, which says something

3, H&H is irrelevant, but all other things equal 6 is always better than 4.

[12,000 RPM]

That's the point - only goes to show the farce of the luxury segment. Put BMW or M-B badging on a V6 Camcord and literally 80%+ luxury car buyers would never be able to tell.

The rash of 2.0T engines are sucky - sure, they get a car on down the road but compared to the 10-year-old V6 in an Accord or Camry, they're less powerful, rougher, sound crappier, won't last as long, and be murder on repair bills.

Damn near nobody keeps a car for 10 years.... those considerations are irrelevant for the bulk of the market.

10 years in a Camry/Accord is a prison sentence.

[12,000 RPM]

I should also add, imagine what these Japanese V6s would look like today if they hadn't stopped progress. We'd probably be looking at ~350 hp of rock-solid, buttery smooth N/A silkiness ze Germans could only dream of. Bit of a shame really.

Nissan would like to have a word with you. VQ37 can't hold a candle to any German blown 6 in many metrics (real world performance, fuel economy, NVH).... which is why they finally threw in the towel.

Plus ~80lb-ft/L is just about the limit for naturally aspirated engines on pump gas, even with direct injection. A 6 cylinder is not gonna get much bigger much bigger than ~4.0L, and it would be pretty rough at that size revving out to ~7K. For the intended goal (effortless performance), blown smaller displacement engines are just better.

[GoCougs]

Damn near nobody keeps a car for 10 years.... those considerations are irrelevant for the bulk of the market.

10 years in a Camry/Accord is a prison sentence.

10-year-old design; ze Germans still can't match it, and it's hilarious.

lol 10 years in a Camcord is Shangrila compared to 10 years in an E Class or 5er.

[MrH]

Damn near nobody keeps a car for 10 years.... those considerations are irrelevant for the bulk of the market.

10 years in a Camry/Accord is a prison sentence.

Even if you don't keep your Camcord ten years, it's still relevant.  Resale value is hugely impacted by long term reliability.

[GoCougs]

Nissan would like to have a word with you. VQ37 can't hold a candle to any German blown 6 in many metrics (real world performance, fuel economy, NVH).... which is why they finally threw in the towel.

Plus ~80lb-ft/L is just about the limit for naturally aspirated engines on pump gas, even with direct injection. A 6 cylinder is not gonna get much bigger much bigger than ~4.0L, and it would be pretty rough at that size revving out to ~7K. For the intended goal (effortless performance), blown smaller displacement engines are just better.

Uh, the Germans had to go with F/I and a $20k+ upcharge (S4, C43, 340i) to beat the 10-year-old VQ37 - then or now. And really, the VQ37 was a base(ish) motor, so the competition is more the current spate of 2.0T motors (which of course isn't competition).

There is indeed a much higher limit for F/I performance, however, it comes at a cost - lag, sucky sound, decreased life, and big repair bills.

[12,000 RPM]

Even if you don't keep your Camcord ten years, it's still relevant.  Resale value is hugely impacted by long term reliability.

Yes, relevant for the Camcord. In the luxury realm, it's different. For one many luxury brands lease the majority of their new cars, so residuals only matter through the end of lease/warranty, and leases are often subsidized by the manufacturer. For most 10 yr residuals don't matter.... this is why a 10 yr old IS350 goes for about the same as a Camry with the same engine despite costing ~50-70% more new. Buying a luxury car is a generally irrational exercise..... practical considerations matter but not to the degree they do in a mainstreamer.

Uh, the Germans had to go with F/I and a $20k+ upcharge (S4, C43, 340i) to beat the 10-year-old VQ37 - then or now. And really, the VQ37 was a base(ish) motor, so the competition is more the current spate of 2.0T motors (which of course isn't competition).

There is indeed a much higher limit for F/I performance, however, it comes at a cost - lag, sucky sound, decreased life, and big repair bills.

Germans have always had a price premium over the Japanese.... this was the case back when the VQ35 mercilessly outgunned their 3.0-3.2Ls in ~03-06.

Plus again the VQ37 is no more, and when it was around it was just holding on. Its better longevity was great for out of warranty poseurs like me, but at the end of the day if the VQ37 were so great Nissan would not have replaced it with the very Germanic VR30DETT. You mention the 2.0Ts.... both the 328i and A4 2.0T are as fast as the VQ37 equipped Infinitis while netting 25-30% better gas mileage (with 2 extra driven wheels in the Audi's case). More torque/average HP right where you want it for the street too. I love a big high revving naturally aspirated engine as any red blooded meat eating human male should, but at the end of the day those clattery little 2.0Ts get the job done in ways big V6s cant at the expense of metrics that don't matter to at least half the poseur class market

[MrH]

Yes, relevant for the Camcord. In the luxury realm, it's different. For one many luxury brands lease the majority of their new cars, so residuals only matter through the end of lease/warranty, and leases are often subsidized by the manufacturer. For most 10 yr residuals don't matter.... this is why a 10 yr old IS350 goes for about the same as a Camry with the same engine despite costing ~50-70% more new. Buying a luxury car is a generally irrational exercise..... practical considerations matter but not to the degree they do in a mainstreamer.

What are you talking about?  IS350s and Camrys are not the same price at all.  2007 model year, Camry on the left, IS350s on the right.

[Morris Minor]

The VQ got a bit rough when it went to 3.7L. I had an Infiniti I30 in the early 2000s. Crap car (dead reliable though) but the 3.0L was a jewel, all glorious 227hp of it.

[Morris Minor]

If I wanted a reasonably priced excellent luxury car I'd probably go with a loaded Accord V6. (I don't like the orthodontic brace front styling though.)

[12,000 RPM]

What are you talking about?  IS350s and Camrys are not the same price at all.  2007 model year, Camry on the left, IS350s on the right.

What site is that? I was going off KBB which was a lot closer. Real transactions are probably a better indicator though.

[12,000 RPM]

The VQ got a bit rough when it went to 3.7L. I had an Infiniti I30 in the early 2000s. Crap car (dead reliable though) but the 3.0L was a jewel, all glorious 227hp of it.

Yea, my 95 and 99 Maximas made the Z feel a bit agricultural. Z hauled the mail though.... made revving past 4K damn near excessive on the street rather than just optional.

Coming from decades of conditioning in deafeningly loud Hondas something like a Golf feels like an S-Class to me, so that's probably all I would need.

[MrH]

What site is that? I was going off KBB which was a lot closer. Real transactions are probably a better indicator though.

Cargurus.com

The dots are actual listings.  Yeah, transaction prices are a better measure, but that's hard to get.  List prices should be a pretty good indicator.

[GoCougs]

Plus again the VQ37 is no more, and when it was around it was just holding on. Its better longevity was great for out of warranty poseurs like me, but at the end of the day if the VQ37 were so great Nissan would not have replaced it with the very Germanic VR30DETT. You mention the 2.0Ts.... both the 328i and A4 2.0T are as fast as the VQ37 equipped Infinitis while netting 25-30% better gas mileage (with 2 extra driven wheels in the Audi's case). More torque/average HP right where you want it for the street too. I love a big high revving naturally aspirated engine as any red blooded meat eating human male should, but at the end of the day those clattery little 2.0Ts get the job done in ways big V6s cant at the expense of metrics that don't matter to at least half the poseur class market

Nissan is under the same pressure to cheat the MPG rating game too (and true to form, the Q50 Red Sport 400 is garnering plenty of complaints for well-below advertised MPG).

Jesus, we've been over this before. The G37 was almost a match for the 335i, and would catch it by about 120 mph. The crop of new trannies w/LC matters a lot, but still, from a roll, the G37 walks a new A4 or 328i.

The 10-year-old Camcord V6 is a superior motor in every single way vs. the new crop of "luxury" German 2.0Ts, and it probably (or should) keep ze Germans up at night.

[12,000 RPM]

Nissan is under the same pressure to cheat the MPG rating game too (and true to form, the Q50 Red Sport 400 is garnering plenty of complaints for well-below advertised MPG).

Jesus, we've been over this before. The G37 was almost a match for the 335i, and would catch it by about 120 mph. The crop of new trannies w/LC matters a lot, but still, from a roll, the G37 walks a new A4 or 328i.

The 10-year-old Camcord V6 is a superior motor in every single way vs. the new crop of "luxury" German 2.0Ts, and it probably (or should) keep ze Germans up at night.

???

Germans aren't cheating. Their turbo cars do about what the EPA says they will (per Fuelly.com). VQ3x got abysmal gas mileage- ~20-22 combined compared with the mid 20s of the significantly more powerful German options (26 MPG in the 2.2 ton 740i per C&D LTT over 13K miles) and high 20s of the equally powerful (by performance metrics- ratings are irrelevant in 2016) 2.0Ts. "Would almost catch it to 120 mph" Good grief... this is "semi-retired" bad And completely irrelevant to street driving. German 2.0Ts burn less fuel to make more power so already they are better by 2 very important metrics (performance and efficiency).

And yea we have been over this before.... turbos are not the boogeyman you make them out to be (which is why you are shopping for turbocharged cars now )

[GoCougs]

Jesus, and I though you'd changed.