Ford on death watch

[r0tor]

Ford investment rating cut to one notch above junk
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/2018/08/29/ford-credit-rating-junk/1135563002/


... I'm so glad I sold my shares at $15, any kind of economic downturn and they are sunk

[MrH]

If you're looking at credit rating to determine a company's solvency, and Ford is on death watch, what does that make Tesla?

[giant_mtb]

^ Strap in boys, here comes another jewel of a thread.

[12,000 RPM]

Before we descend into SnipeSPIN I do want to ask a question

Do the D3 get fair treatment?

The Corolla has been mediocre for decades. Wack fuel economy, cheap build quality, uninspired design. By any other badge, it would have been cast off long ago. Previous Civic was so bad Honda damn near apologized. Remained a top seller the whole time. People complain about the Fusion being "old", but the last Camry's bones went back like 15 years. The Cruze and Malibu are no worse than the Corolla or previous Camry. I guess the question is have the D3 dug themselves into a reputation hole they can never get out of? Seems like no matter how good the cars are, people would rather buy mediocre Japanese offerings.

[2o6]

Before we descend into SnipeSPIN I do want to ask a question

Do the D3 get fair treatment?

The Corolla has been mediocre for decades. Wack fuel economy, cheap build quality, uninspired design. By any other badge, it would have been cast off long ago. Previous Civic was so bad Honda damn near apologized. Remained a top seller the whole time. People complain about the Fusion being "old", but the last Camry's bones went back like 15 years. The Cruze and Malibu are no worse than the Corolla or previous Camry. I guess the question is have the D3 dug themselves into a reputation hole they can never get out of? Seems like no matter how good the cars are, people would rather buy mediocre Japanese offerings.

They stay together. The Cruze is ok, but a Corolla and Civic will generally have far fewer warranty claims.

[GoCougs]

IMO it comes down to Mulally not being a product guy and the corresponding false positive of the "recovery" (it's not about cutting costs and loans, it's about a history of great product). Owing to the long product cycles in automotive, the inertia of Mulally years has finally come home to roost (and really started ~2-3 years ago).

A lot if not most of the time a reorg bankruptcy is beneficial. It forces huge changes that simply would not have happened otherwise. For Ford, getting the Ford family the hell out of the the picture, putting a legit car person at the helm, and making even more sweeping changes to operations, would have done wonders. Such as it is, Ford is on the decline and should hybrids/EVs and/or autonomous tech become ever more the rage, Ford will be in jeopardy.

[shp4man]

Ford's getting a new CEO. If i know them, the stock prices have something to do with them wanting a stock buyback of some kind. Just a guess.

[r0tor]

Ford has really no direction... They sold off the premium groups that had potential, failed to do anything with Lincoln/Mercury, and are about to lose more market share with exiting the NA car market with really no products in the pipeline to replace those sales.

All they can cling to is the F-series... Which I wouldnt doubt an offer from someone like VW might be on the table to get in the NA truck market.

[cawimmer430]

Stupid question, but why did Ford stop production of the Ford Crown Victoria? I thought that car was profitable for them since it was gobbled up by taxi, rental (?) and police fleets. They seemingly abandoned a good niche and replaced the Crown Victoria with cars from their lineup which, from what I've heard, the cops don't really like. I've heard that some cops even prefer the Crown Victoria to the newer Dodge Charger...

Couldn't they have engineered a new version on a new RWD platform with a performance engine for the cops and a fuel-economy-biased gasoline/diesel/hybrid setup for taxi or rental fleets? How hard would it have been to stretch the RWD Mustang platform...

[Soup DeVille]

Even if they wanted to keep making it, I believe fuel economy and safety regulations would have doomed it.

[shp4man]

I heard unofficially that they fired the clown or clowns responsible for the herky jerky Focus/Fiesta trannies. They are changing a bit. Don't think they fired the engineering school reject responsible for the early Taurus exploding auto tranny. 

[cawimmer430]

Even if they wanted to keep making it, I believe fuel economy and safety regulations would have doomed it.

I suspect the fuel economy issues could have been solved with a newer, more efficient engine.

Safety? Yeah, that requires some ground-up thinking and redesigns.

Still, stretch the Mustang platform and give us the Crown Victoria Edition 2019!

[giant_mtb]

Newer police cars such as the Charger and Taurus are also available with AWD.  Can become critical.  Not that many police departments don't also have 4WD SUVs in their fleet, but, those seem to typically be reserved for K9 units and the like.

[cawimmer430]

Newer police cars such as the Charger and Taurus are also available with AWD.  Can become critical.  Not that many police departments don't also have 4WD SUVs in their fleet, but, those seem to typically be reserved for K9 units and the like.

I seem to recall that some officers didn't like the permanent 4WD setup. Don't quote me on that, though.

[CaminoRacer]

Ford sells a decent amount of Explorers to police departments.

[Laconian]

Beh, they'd fix their revenue woes if they just sold the F-Series Horse Dick Ranch Edition already.

[giant_mtb]

I seem to recall that some officers didn't like the permanent 4WD setup. Don't quote me on that, though.

I won't.  Because that's a silly statement.

The trend toward AWD patrol vehicles is partly market driven, as Chrysler and GM/Chevrolet have offered their vehicles following the initial introduction of the Ford Police Interceptor sedan and P.I. Utility in a standard AWD package. Ford initially offered a discount to agencies seeking FWD, but has since eliminated that option. The vehicles are now only offered with AWD.

"Customers were buying the AWD version at a little over 97 percent," says Randy Freiburger, a lead police vehicle engineer with Ford. "Only a little over 2% were buying the FWD version."

https://www.government-fleet.com/153345/awd-police-vehicles-gain-traction

[FoMoJo]

Nonsense , GM'll die long before Ford, besides, the government still owes Ford a bailout .

[2o6]

Stupid question, but why did Ford stop production of the Ford Crown Victoria? I thought that car was profitable for them since it was gobbled up by taxi, rental (?) and police fleets. They seemingly abandoned a good niche and replaced the Crown Victoria with cars from their lineup which, from what I've heard, the cops don't really like. I've heard that some cops even prefer the Crown Victoria to the newer Dodge Charger...

Couldn't they have engineered a new version on a new RWD platform with a performance engine for the cops and a fuel-economy-biased gasoline/diesel/hybrid setup for taxi or rental fleets? How hard would it have been to stretch the RWD Mustang platform...

It was also BOF, could be out accelerated by a Honda Civic, didn't crash well, and was horribly space inefficient. The only real reason why police departments and livery companies liked it is because repair costs were cheap, and doing heavy-duty things like pushing cars or medium speed accidents is easier to fix on a full-framed car versus a unibody one.

That's all moot; the vast majority of police departments use either the Dodge Charger, or have migrated to the Chevy Tahoe or Ford Explorer. The Tahoe and Explorer effectively have the same running fuel costs as the sedan cars, but much more utility.

[12,000 RPM]

Beh, they'd fix their revenue woes if they just sold the F-Series Horse Dick Ranch Edition already.

It's..... coming

[r0tor]

I think Wimmer had a point though with the crown vic...

It was extremely popular (as shitty as it was) and just abandoned it?

They build a jewel of a V8 for the Mustang and Shelby Mustang - and don't spread it around? Don't do a sedan version?  Don't put it in a hot SUV? FCA is putting the hell cat in everything it can physically fit it into.

They build a GT supercars that shows they can build the best of the best supercars... and then abandon the US car market?  Why not try to benefit from it? Wtf?

They had the premier autogroup and never capitalized on any real trickle down tech transfer?


Ford is just too large of a ship to be just drifting around... and that's all it seems to be doing anymore.

[giant_mtb]

I think Wimmer had a point though with the crown vic...

It was extremely popular (as shitty as it was) and just abandoned it?

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/ford-crown-victoria-sales-figures/

December  (2010):3302  (2011):793  (2012):546

Extremely popular, you say?  It was incredibly popular in its heyday.  Not so much in its later years.

[cawimmer430]

I won't.  Because that's a silly statement.

The trend toward AWD patrol vehicles is partly market driven, as Chrysler and GM/Chevrolet have offered their vehicles following the initial introduction of the Ford Police Interceptor sedan and P.I. Utility in a standard AWD package. Ford initially offered a discount to agencies seeking FWD, but has since eliminated that option. The vehicles are now only offered with AWD.

"Customers were buying the AWD version at a little over 97 percent," says Randy Freiburger, a lead police vehicle engineer with Ford. "Only a little over 2% were buying the FWD version."

https://www.government-fleet.com/153345/awd-police-vehicles-gain-traction

[cawimmer430]

It was also BOF, could be out accelerated by a Honda Civic, didn't crash well, and was horribly space inefficient. The only real reason why police departments and livery companies liked it is because repair costs were cheap, and doing heavy-duty things like pushing cars or medium speed accidents is easier to fix on a full-framed car versus a unibody one.

That's all moot; the vast majority of police departments use either the Dodge Charger, or have migrated to the Chevy Tahoe or Ford Explorer. The Tahoe and Explorer effectively have the same running fuel costs as the sedan cars, but much more utility.

Got it. 

I've seen some photos of the rear space on a standard Crown Victoria. Let's just say criminals deserve that. 

Most Crown Victoria taxis were the LWB model, I assume?

[Soup DeVille]

It was also BOF, could be out accelerated by a Honda Civic, didn't crash well, and was horribly space inefficient. The only real reason why police departments and livery companies liked it is because repair costs were cheap, and doing heavy-duty things like pushing cars or medium speed accidents is easier to fix on a full-framed car versus a unibody one.

That's all moot; the vast majority of police departments use either the Dodge Charger, or have migrated to the Chevy Tahoe or Ford Explorer. The Tahoe and Explorer effectively have the same running fuel costs as the sedan cars, but much more utility.

Space wise, it was pretty good in the two things that officers care about- front seat room and trunk space.

[Soup DeVille]

Got it. 

I've seen some photos of the rear space on a standard Crown Victoria. Let's just say criminals deserve that. 

Most Crown Victoria taxis were the LWB model, I assume?

No.

Only the Town Car livery sedans were ever regularly seen in LWB form.

[2o6]

No.

Only the Town Car livery sedans were ever regularly seen in LWB form.

The CV was LWB in NYC, and maybe a few other big cities where a partition was used. But I don't think I've ever seen a LWB CV in person.

[93JC]

That's all moot; the vast majority of police departments use either the Dodge Charger, or have migrated to the Chevy Tahoe or Ford Explorer.

Explorers, F-150s and Transits are commonplace in the police fleets here, but Taurus Police Interceptors are too. Pretty much the entire Calgary Police Service fleet is composed of Fords.

[Payman]

Chargers and Tahoes here.

[r0tor]

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/ford-crown-victoria-sales-figures/

December  (2010):3302  (2011):793  (2012):546

Extremely popular, you say?  It was incredibly popular in its heyday.  Not so much in its later years.

Yea it was abandoned for about 20 years