Most exciting cars from around 2000

[12,000 RPM]

Seriously. There's not a single domestic car from those years that I'd recommend him to buy. Maybe a C5, but it's not going to be a good one for $13,000.

Rustang Cobra?

[BimmerM3]

My grandparents had a V6 for like 10 years and I don't recall any issues.  And my grandfather is kind of hard on his vehicles (he once took his LS off road chasing some kids on ATVs off his property...).

Would you have known about it if they did? I've never discussed mechanical issues with my grandparents.

[MX793]

Would you have known about it if they did? I've never discussed mechanical issues with my grandparents.

My grandfather is somewhat of a car guy (raced dirt track stock cars when he was younger, has several show-worthy classics, still wrenches on his old cars) and my grandmother is pretty vocal if something is causing a lot of problems or costing them money.  If it was a POS, I'd have heard about it.

[FoMoJo]

I don't have time right now, but I heard a good story from a Ford insider about the development of the 4.6L Ford V8. It has to do with the downturn in the big defense industry after the Berlin Wall got taken down. 

So what's the story here?   Were they going to use it power bulldozers?

[shp4man]

So what's the story here?   Were they going to use it power bulldozers?

After the USSR collapsed, many really good engineers in the defense industry were laid off. Some innovative thinking person at Ford brought some of them in and assigned them to design a V8 engine. Their design was overbuilt, and despite easily lasting half a million miles, it was too expensive to build competitively. Ford asked them to make adjustments.
And the result was the 4.6, maybe the best V8 ever made for multiple applications. That's debatable, I know. Chevy small block?
I don't know what happened to the defense engineers. They probably went to work for better pay somewhere. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

After the USSR collapsed, many really good engineers in the defense industry were laid off. Some innovative thinking person at Ford brought some of them in and assigned them to design a V8 engine. Their design was overbuilt, and despite easily lasting half a million miles, it was too expensive to build competitively. Ford asked them to make adjustments.
And the result was the 4.6, maybe the best V8 ever made for multiple applications. That's debatable, I know. Chevy small block?
I don't know what happened to the defense engineers. They probably went to work for better pay somewhere. 

I want to know what adjustments they made to make the 4.6 cheaper.

[shp4man]

I want to know what adjustments they made to make the 4.6 cheaper.

Internal and external block stiffening and metallurgy.

[FoMoJo]

After the USSR collapsed, many really good engineers in the defense industry were laid off. Some innovative thinking person at Ford brought some of them in and assigned them to design a V8 engine. Their design was overbuilt, and despite easily lasting half a million miles, it was too expensive to build competitively. Ford asked them to make adjustments.
And the result was the 4.6, maybe the best V8 ever made for multiple applications. That's debatable, I know. Chevy small block?
I don't know what happened to the defense engineers. They probably went to work for better pay somewhere. 

The CSB was the choice of hot rodders.  The Windsor and the 4.6 was the choice of serious racers.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Internal and external block stiffening and metallurgy.

And that's why they don't actually last a half million miles.

[GoCougs]

I want to know what adjustments they made to make the 4.6 cheaper.

Thing is I don't see anything of note in the Modular design vs. other OHC designs of the times (save for the 2-valve version). The hitch is the Modular had all the detriments of OHC design (size/weight/complexity/cost) but none of the advantages (esp. no more power) - a conundrum carried forward 25+ years later into the Coyote/Voodoo.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Thing is I don't see anything of note in the Modular design vs. other OHC designs of the times (save for the 2-valve version). The hitch is the Modular had all the detriments of OHC design (size/weight/complexity/cost) but none of the advantages (esp. no more power) - a conundrum carried forward 25+ years later into the Coyote/Voodoo.

[Laconian]

IIRC isn't the Modular design actually very unmodular from the consumer's POV? As in, you can't trivially transplant a hi-po Modular from one car to another like you can with a SBC. IIRC the "modular" moniker had more to do with factory modularity or something mundane like that.

[Eye of the Tiger]

IIRC isn't the Modular design actually very unmodular from the consumer's POV? As in, you can't trivially transplant a hi-po Modular from one car to another like you can with a SBC. IIRC the "modular" moniker had more to do with factory modularity or something mundane like that.

Yeah, the manufacturing process is what was modular, not the engine. The manufacturing may have been efficient, but the product was not.

[Laconian]

Remember to always use Modular in italics, that's what makes the engine modern.

[12,000 RPM]

Stop hating on Ford. Here is a video demonstrating some Modular excellence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcN_WcGr4BU

[BimmerM3]

I agree that a man sitting inside of an engine bay is the worst engine ever.

[FoMoJo]

Not an engine for those who don't do maintenance.  Got to change the oil once in a while.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Not an engine for those who don't do maintenance.  Got to change the oil once in a while.

... and the cam phasers, VVT solenoids, timing chains and guides and tensioners, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, ignition coils, spark plugs and/or cylinder heads ...

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

... and the cam phasers, VVT solenoids, timing chains and guides and tensioners, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, ignition coils, spark plugs and/or cylinder heads ...

[Soup DeVille]

IIRC isn't the Modular design actually very unmodular from the consumer's POV? As in, you can't trivially transplant a hi-po Modular from one car to another like you can with a SBC. IIRC the "modular" moniker had more to do with factory modularity or something mundane like that.

Yes, physically its a much larger engine than the old small block Windsor it replaced.

[shp4man]

LOL. The 5.4 three valve wasn't designed by the guys that did the 4.6. And the 4.6 wasn't designed for high power output. It was designed for dependability and longevity.
That's why when the cops racked up 150,000 miles, taxi companies painted them yellow and racked up another 200K.
4.6 liters equals about 280 cubic inches. I'll let you do a comparison there.

[GoCougs]

The C5 "transaxle" which is just a 4L60 auto or Tremec T56 (same trannies as the F bodies) bolted directly to the differential rather than having a length of driveshaft between?  Why exactly would that be inherently more problematic than when there is several feet of extra shaft between them?  For that matter, can you point me to some stories of transaxle issues that plagued the C5?  I can't seem to find any other than the onesy-twosy issues that you can find for pretty much any car.

The inherent problem is that the driveshaft is contained within what is called a torque tube (a non-rotating tube around the driveshaft between engine and transaxle). This torque tube is actually a core structural member of the car, and thus imparts a lot of force/moment into the transaxle that wasn't entirely designed for such a thing, leading to cracked cases and failed components:

[GoCougs]

Yes, physically its a much larger engine than the old small block Windsor it replaced.

DOHC Modular (left) vs. 5.0 pooprod (right):



GM LS (left) vs. Coyote (right):

[Laconian]

Yikes, that thing is huge

[MX793]

The inherent problem is that the driveshaft is contained within what is called a torque tube (a non-rotating tube around the driveshaft between engine and transaxle). This torque tube is actually a core structural member of the car, and thus imparts a lot of force/moment into the transaxle that wasn't entirely designed for such a thing, leading to cracked cases and failed components:

Seeing as the Corvette's engine is on compliant mounts, the drivetrain is not a structural member in the same sense as the actual frame (or something like an F50 Ferrari or a motorcycle).  If that was actually part of the chassis structure, you'd likely see broken motor mounts and engine blocks as much as broken transmission housings.

If these are so problematic, then why am I not inundated with hits when I search for terms like:
"Corvette transaxle issues"
"Corvette cracked transmission case"
"Corvette cracked transaxle"

[12,000 RPM]

Presenting evidence contrary to Cougs' beliefs is immoral.

[FoMoJo]

... and the cam phasers, VVT solenoids, timing chains and guides and tensioners, intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, ignition coils, spark plugs and/or cylinder heads ...

Well, they can't win them all .

It seems the problem may stem from an oil seal on one or both timing chain tensionsers and precipitates the other damage.  An article that explains it quite well...http://abautomotive.ca/2017/03/09/ford-5-4-phasers-noise/

n short, this problem is caused by the lack of oil pressure on top of the engine causing incorrect operation of cam phasers and lack of lubrication for the camshafts bearings. From my observations, I can conclude that the problem starts with a failure of the oil seal on one or both timing chain tensioners. Damage to the cam phasers and camshaft bearings is a consequence of this condition. To a certain extent use of 5W-20 viscosity oil also contributes to this problem. Apparently, Ford has it figured out too as they supply new engines with 5W-30 oil viscosity recommendation (as I found it to be shown on the oil cap of the brand new engine)

[MX793]

Not an engine for those who don't do maintenance.  Got to change the oil once in a while.

Oil sludging is also a characteristic of engines that aren't run long enough to get up to temperature.  People who almost exclusively do very short trips to the local store or work.

[FoMoJo]

Oil sludging is also a characteristic of engines that aren't run long enough to get up to temperature.  People who almost exclusively do very short trips to the local store or work.

Or oil that is overheated.  Lack of oil pressure to the heads may well cause them to overheat and burn the oil.  Toyota had this problem in the late nineties and early aughts.

[GoCougs]

Seeing as the Corvette's engine is on compliant mounts, the drivetrain is not a structural member in the same sense as the actual frame (or something like an F50 Ferrari or a motorcycle).  If that was actually part of the chassis structure, you'd likely see broken motor mounts and engine blocks as much as broken transmission housings.

If these are so problematic, then why am I not inundated with hits when I search for terms like:
"Corvette transaxle issues"
"Corvette cracked transmission case"
"Corvette cracked transaxle"

The torque tube is a structural member of the car, and it imparts undue stress into the transaxle, which can lead to premature failure. It should be a notable area of concern for anyone considering the purchase of a (used) C5, esp. with miles.