Cybertruck

[veeman]

I think the covers are off EVs at this point - psycho Musk, falling sales and realization that EVs are not any sort of material environmental solution. The Cybertruck was hatched in the days of yore whereby it was all rainbows and unicorns.

I'm not disagreeing with you but you should get one (an EV). Once you daily drive a well sorted EV which has the creature comforts you want, I think it hard to go back to ICE as a daily driver, especially in traffic congested local roads. This question of ultimate range is a bit silly to me. My opinion they're not meant for going outside the home range and they're not meant to be charged by public fast charging. At least for a good ownership experience perspective. They're meant as a second car for people who can install a level 2 charger at home. Leave the ICE for longer drives.

Irrespective of their pros and cons of their impact on climate change vs ICE, it's so much nicer a daily drive experience. You feel like you're in a vehicle of the future compared with all the ICE around you. Lack of NVH, really stable because of low center of gravity heavy weight, and instant speed. It's never "get up to speed". It's always "I am already at the speed I want to be at."

[Laconian]

Marques Brownlee is testing the CT and shared this picture from the driver's seat.
You cannot view this attachment.
Everybody is talking about the range, the power... but how about that A-pillar?!?!

[Rich]

It's a fucktastrophe.

[CaminoRacer]

At least the dash is suede-like material, that's a nice touch to reduce glare from that massive flat expanse.

[giant_mtb]

I bet some of the same dorks that whine "these darn big gas guzzlin' SUVs, how are you supposed to see a child in front of you!" are the same people that'll be buying these monstrosities and say how great the visibility is.

[Laconian]

I bet some of the same dorks that whine "these darn big gas guzzlin' SUVs, how are you supposed to see a child in front of you!" are the same people that'll be buying these monstrosities and say how great the visibility is.

I doubt it.. it's not all granola folks buying EVs, there are plenty of psychopaths behind the wheels of them too My area used to be thick with BMWs but now they are all Teslas.

[r0tor]

really stable because of low center of gravity heavy weight, and instant speed. It's never "get up to speed". It's always "I am already at the speed I want to be at."

Most of these things are $50k+.  At that price tag I don't think there are many cars that you couldn't say those same things about

[giant_mtb]

I doubt it.. it's not all granola folks buying EVs, there are plenty of psychopaths behind the wheels of them too My area used to be thick with BMWs but now they are all Teslas.

Me and my friends call them "granola eatin' fucks."

[veeman]

Most of these things are $50k+.  At that price tag I don't think there are many cars that you couldn't say those same things about

EVs punch way above their weight (or price) class compared with equivalent priced ICE regarding silence/speed combo. It's not a fair comparison. EVs don't have an engine so mostly the only noise you hear is tire and wind noise.

[r0tor]

EVs punch way above their weight (or price) class compared with equivalent priced ICE regarding silence/speed combo. It's not a fair comparison. EVs don't have an engine so mostly the only noise you hear is tire and wind noise.

Speed wise a Tesla Model 3 2WD models have roughly the same acceleration as my Alfa for basically the same price range.  Sound wise I installed an aftermarket exhaust because I enjoy engine sounds.

So that's a double negative for me on EV advantage.

[Morris Minor]

Speed wise a Tesla Model 3 2WD models have roughly the same acceleration as my Alfa for basically the same price range.  Sound wise I installed an aftermarket exhaust because I enjoy engine sounds.

So that's a double negative for me on EV advantage.

If you like noise & smoke & oil & complex mechanicals, an EV is not for you. For those for whom these attributes are less important, Veeman is right; keep an ICE vehicle around for the rare beyond-home-charging-radius events, while using the EV as your daily driver.

Most people will need to put the ICE vehicle on a battery tender.

[r0tor]

If you like noise & smoke & oil & complex mechanicals, an EV is not for you. For those for whom these attributes are less important, Veeman is right; keep an ICE vehicle around for the rare beyond-home-charging-radius events, while using the EV as your daily driver.

Most people will need to put the ICE vehicle on battery tender.

My point is really I see all these "eeeevvvveeeess are so fast!" comments. 

My working assumption is most of these comments are from people who traditionally didn't sped a whole lot on a car and never bought a high performance model but then suddenly pluck down $50k on a 400+ hp EV.

Anything with a decent power to weight ratio is going to feel fast and most cars in the $50k range fall into that category if it's ICE or EV.  EVs are a bit faster off the line (but not huge difference compared to a modern turbo engine) and significantly slower for the most part at higher speeds.

EVs are fine for an appliance application.

[veeman]

If you like noise & smoke & oil & complex mechanicals, an EV is not for you. For those for whom these attributes are less important, Veeman is right; keep an ICE vehicle around for the rare beyond-home-charging-radius events, while using the EV as your daily driver.

Most people will need to put the ICE vehicle on a battery tender.

Agree 100%. The only reason my two ICE cars are not on a battery tender is my wife drives the EV to work. I loved driving my manual transmission Veloster.  It's slow but it's fun to, pedal to the metal, go through the gear changes. The EV feels better to me however. I feel like I'm driving something from  Blade Runner 2049 except it doesn't fly. Surreally quiet and at speed once on a straight road seemly instantaneously. I have to take turns slower than in my Veloster because it's so heavy but the heavy weight actually feels gratifying too because I feel more protected. The same sort of feeling I get when sitting in a large German luxury sedan. When sitting in it while it's being driven you can feel the heavy weight of the car being effortlessly propelled.

[FoMoJo]

I think that EVs make good commuter vehicles, but for the enthusiast, IC is still desired by enthusiasts.  It needs to be a real sports car though.  Not just a sedan or SUV with a big motor.  Camaro, for those inclined, Mustang, hear it roar, or Alfa sports sedans would all qualify.  Most commuters are really not enthusiasts, so an EV would be just right for them.

[FoMoJo]

An example of an "enthusiasts" sports car...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU8GMEsc0SI&t=1s

You can never get that from an EV, no matter how quick or sporty.

[CaminoRacer]

My point is really I see all these "eeeevvvveeeess are so fast!" comments. 

My working assumption is most of these comments are from people who traditionally didn't sped a whole lot on a car and never bought a high performance model but then suddenly pluck down $50k on a 400+ hp EV.

Anything with a decent power to weight ratio is going to feel fast and most cars in the $50k range fall into that category if it's ICE or EV.  EVs are a bit faster off the line (but not huge difference compared to a modern turbo engine) and significantly slower for the most part at higher speeds.

EVs are fine for an appliance application.

I don't know how to respond to this other than to say you're wrong. EVs don't have any shift lag, turbo lag, etc. Even at highway speeds, flooring it in an EV is much quicker to shoot a gap in traffic than an ICE. My BMW has more HP than the Bolt but it takes a minute to spool up and go. Your comments sound like magazine bench racing more than experience with both EV & ICE.

[r0tor]

I don't know how to respond to this other than to say you're wrong. EVs don't have any shift lag, turbo lag, etc. Even at highway speeds, flooring it in an EV is much quicker to shoot a gap in traffic than an ICE. My BMW has more HP than the Bolt but it takes a minute to spool up and go. Your comments sound like magazine bench racing more than experience with both EV & ICE.

8sp auto plus small turbo?  Come on, the spool time is practically non existent.  Being in the right gear before accelerating is a voluntary move I enjoy doing.

[CaminoRacer]

8sp auto plus small turbo?  Come on, the spool time is practically non existent.  Being in the right gear before accelerating is a voluntary move I enjoy doing.

The EV doesn't need that voluntary move, it's always in the right gear

[r0tor]

The EV doesn't need that voluntary move, it's always in the right gear

I find enjoyment in downshifting so again I don't see the lack of sound or effort to be a benefit.

A fast car is a fast car is a fast car.  All cars still obey physics

[r0tor]

Saying this though, it's rather interesting in the tuning practices between ICE and EVs at the moment.

ICE turbo cats for the last 20 or so years now have electronic.controlled wastegate which regulate boost pressure to provide a fairly constant torque and linear power feel.  They give up low rpm performance for smoothness.  Aftermarket tunes reverse this and just let the engine produce all it can which ends up giving you the 80s/90s era turbo spool surge.

Most EVs on the other hand are being tuned to provide that initial shock - often times with short lived time periods that "over boost" the battery.

[Laconian]

I find enjoyment in downshifting so again I don't see the lack of sound or effort to be a benefit.

A fast car is a fast car is a fast car.  All cars still obey physics

There's speed and there's latency. You can have equivalently fast cars but one can be snappier than the other.

On Sport mode the EV6 has zero perceivable latency. The motors feel like they're hard wired to your nervous system. Just a hint of desire to accelerate and the car explodes forward. That capability doesn't exist outside of the hypercar ICE sphere.

[r0tor]

There's speed and there's latency. You can have equivalently fast cars but one can be snappier than the other.

On Sport mode the EV6 has zero perceivable latency. The motors feel like they're hard wired to your nervous system. Just a hint of desire to accelerate and the car explodes forward. That capability doesn't exist outside of the hypercar ICE sphere.

See my post above why predominantly that is.

[Laconian]

See my post above why predominantly that is.

But there are fewer mechanical constants dictating the tune or feel of an EV's drivetrain. The software abstraction layer gives the user a tremendous amount of latitude to dynamically adjust the performance of the car based on their preferences. The same car can go from Chill to Ludicrous with no compromise on either.

[GoCougs]

I'm not disagreeing with you but you should get one (an EV). Once you daily drive a well sorted EV which has the creature comforts you want, I think it hard to go back to ICE as a daily driver, especially in traffic congested local roads. This question of ultimate range is a bit silly to me. My opinion they're not meant for going outside the home range and they're not meant to be charged by public fast charging. At least for a good ownership experience perspective. They're meant as a second car for people who can install a level 2 charger at home. Leave the ICE for longer drives.

Irrespective of their pros and cons of their impact on climate change vs ICE, it's so much nicer a daily drive experience. You feel like you're in a vehicle of the future compared with all the ICE around you. Lack of NVH, really stable because of low center of gravity heavy weight, and instant speed. It's never "get up to speed". It's always "I am already at the speed I want to be at."

Not a chance. It's been 10+ years and EVs and charging infrastructure are limited to the point that the average driver still needs access to an ICEV. Battery tech seems to be asymptotically nearing peak and no one is that interested in public charging infrastructure given how abysmal it is - all of which will be exacerbated as EV sales decline and the hype dies down. Like an electric fork lift, electric bus, electric train, etc., EVs can have good value proposition, but it is within a very narrow set of circumstances and customers (wealthy-ish, can afford cost and space of an ICEV, has standalone housing, used for local commuting).

[r0tor]

Not a chance. It's been 10+ years and EVs and charging infrastructure are limited to the point that the average driver still needs access to an ICEV. Battery tech seems to be asymptotically nearing peak and no one is that interested in public charging infrastructure given how abysmal it is - all of which will be exacerbated as EV sales decline and the hype dies down. Like an electric fork lift, electric bus, electric train, etc., EVs can have good value proposition, but it is within a very narrow set of circumstances and customers (wealthy-ish, can afford cost and space of an ICEV, has standalone housing, used for local commuting).

So I disagree that battery nearing peak.  Solid state batteries will come out with massive energy density

But that battery development is utterly useless without the charging infrastructure.  A decent EV still takes 3-4kwh/mile regardless of battery tech.  There is still inherently the same amount of minutes charge time per mile required if you have a 100kwh pack or a 300keh pack - so the larger pack you can travel further but then spend 3x longer at the charger.  Therefore really the infrastructure is more important than the battery tech at the moment and to solve that still is a mind-blowing amount of work.

EV trucks are a victim of this.  Yes you can put a battery to travel 300 miles in a Lightening or Cybertruck, but now you are sitting at a charger 2x longer than a crossover EV... and could reach the point where even home charging is not rapid enough to keep up with daily travels.  I know someone trying to use a Lightening for commercial use and had to ditch it because of this.

[Laconian]

https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck/design#payment

$60k RWD, "available 2025". No power numbers, but a claim for 6.5s 0-60.
$80k AWD, "delivery 2024". 600hp.
$100k AWD Cyberbeast, "delivery 2024".

What's with those torque numbers? 7,435 lb*ft? Is that number after a reduction gearbox?

[Eye of the Tiger]

7435 at whaaaat?

[CaminoRacer]

That's gotta be with gear reduction. Which is exactly the type of dumb stat Tesla likes to promote. (Just like their website is covered in "price after savings" and asterisks on their 0-60 times)

[r0tor]

GM is guilty of the same douchebagrity

From the Hummer EV webpage...

HOW POWERFUL
Electricity has never been more electrifying. HUMMER EV Pickup is available with up to 1,000 horsepower,† 11,500 lb-ft of torque† and, with available Watts To Freedom,† 0-60 mph acceleration in about 3 seconds.† When properly equipped, HUMMER EV SUV offers up to an available 830 horsepower† and 11,500 lb-ft of torque.† And with available Watts To Freedom, 60 mph is yours in approximately 3.5 seconds.†

[Laconian]

So why are they reinventing that stat?