C&D's 5Best Trucks

[VetteZ06]

I like ifcar's idea, but I also agree that there are too many contenders for that to work. Perhaps they could do a writeup on the winner, along with a smaller writeup on the runner-up?

[ifcar]

I like ifcar's idea, but I also agree that there are too many contenders for that to work. Perhaps they could do a writeup on the winner, along with a smaller writeup on the runner-up?

There are the same number of contenders in the Motor Trend COTY and TOTY. They're testing the same vehicles.

[VetteZ06]

There are the same number of contenders in the Motor Trend COTY and TOTY. They're testing the same vehicles.

Guessing?

[SVT666]

I guess they saw it differently then, eh?

I guess so.  If the Tundra couldn't beat the Silverado, then I'm not worried aobut the Tundra stealing many sales because I was somewhat underwhelmed with the Silverado when I saw one at the dealership.  At best the new Silverado is on par with Dodge and still trails the F-150.  With all the hype I was prepared to see a totally superior truck, and I found myself somewhat dissapointed happy with what I saw. 

[ifcar]

Guessing?

I'm not sure what you mean.

C/D and MT both test all new/redesigned vehicles. C/D also includes the previous winners, but those are so often carry-overs that most of them already have their write-ups. Maybe C/D has a couple more, but nothing so significant that they couldn't write about everything while MT can.

[VetteZ06]

With all the hype I was prepared to see a totally superior truck, and I found myself somewhat dissapointed happy with what I saw.?

See, that's the problem. I think you were hoping to be underwhelmed by the Silverado, and that's what happened in the end. You made up your mind beforehand.

You'd probably have to drive all of them (F-150, Ram) to see where the Silverado is superior - refinement, handling, rigidity, etc. I've never been a fan of the updated Ram's styling, and the interior is certainly outdone by the Ford and Chevy. The F-150 is a great truck, but I'm not a Ford fan at all (I know, shocking). When all three are relatively close in terms of capability, it's the small details that end up swaying a person one way or the other.

Personally, I'd take the Sierra over the Silverado, followed by the F-150 and the Ram. The Tundra would certainly be in contention, but I've heard some interesting complaints from people who've gotten some seat time thus far.

[VetteZ06]

I'm not sure what you mean.

I was asking if you were guessing, as opposed to being 100% certain. To me it always seems like C&D tests more vehicles.

[ifcar]

I don't think so. MT's COTY issue is huge, they even test all the twins of the same car.

[VetteZ06]

You're probably right.

[Raghavan]

I would've probably picked the Tundra over the Silverado, but I don't see what's so great about the Pilot. I would've picked the RDX over the RAV-4 for Small SUV. The Odyssey i think is still best in class, and the GL is a great SUV....

[Danish]

The Odyssey has better handling and steering feel than those two. Therefore, it's favored by the enthusiast magazine.

This is probably why they chose the RAV4

[MX793]

There are the same number of contenders in the Motor Trend COTY and TOTY. They're testing the same vehicles.

This year's COTY contender list contained 27 cars.  C&D's 10Best contender list had over 50.  Obviously, they weren't considering the same batch of vehicles.

[ifcar]

Looking at the list, the difference is represented by the ten last-year winners (six of which already got a page in the magazine for winning again) and multiple versions of the same car. They drive more actual cars than MT, but wouldn't need many more pages.

[MX793]

Looking at the list, the difference is represented by the ten last-year winners (six of which already got a page in the magazine for winning again) and multiple versions of the same car. They drive more actual cars than MT, but wouldn't need many more pages.

C&D's 2007 10Best nominees (returning '06 winners in bold).  I'll combine all multiple versions that C&D might have counted as seperate models and remove those models for which no test examples were available.  I'll italicize models not in MT's COTY contender list

Acura TL
Acura TSX
Audi A3
Audi RS4
BMW 3 Series
BMW Z4 Coupe/M Roadster/M Coupe
Chevy Aveo
Chevy Corvette
Chevy Monte Carlo SS
Chrysler 300/300C/SRT-8
Chrysler Sebring
Dodge Caliber
Ford Mustang GT
Ford Shelby GT500 (unless you want to group this with the Mustang)
Honda Accord
Honda Civic Si sedan
Honda Fit
Hyundai Accent
Hyundai Elantra
Infiniti G35
Kia Optima
Lexus ES350
Lexus GS450h
Lexus LS460
Lincoln MKZ
Mazda MX5
Mazda RX-8
Mazdaspeed3
Mazdaspeed6
MB CLS550
MB E-class
Nissan Altima
Nissan Maxima
Nissan Sentra
Nissan Versa
Pontiac G6
Porsche Boxster/Cayman
Saturn Aura
Saturn Sky
Toyota Camry
Toyota Yaris
VW Eos
VW GTI/Rabbit
Volvo C70

34 cars excluding the previous winners and models that they couldn't get examples of for testing (33 if you group the GT500 with the regular Mustang).  44 counting the '06 winners and more when you consider they tested multiple versions of several (such as the several Z4 variants).  They would need to do writeups for an additional 34 cars on top of the 10 writeups they already had for the 10 winners.  MT only had 27 cars to write up counting their COTY winner.  So C&D would have to add more writeups than MT did in total to talk about every model in contention for awards.

[ifcar]

Your list also includes different versions of the same car, and lightly facelifted cars like the E-Class.

But let's say they would write about all those cars. Are you saying they couldn't dedicate 34 pages to car reviews in the 10Best issue?

[FordSVT]

I guess an all-aluminum 381hp DOHC V8, 50% more gears, better as-tested fuel economy, gear-driven transfer case, 10.5" ring gear diff, and 14" 4WDBs is "radical experimentation."

I think it's funny that on one hand you'll tell people to stop magazine racing, and then you'll turn around and (not for the first time) spit out these exact same specs for a truck you've never driven. I think it's great that, after multiple tries, Toyota came out with a truck that can stand along side the domestics, but it's not so far ahead of the pack it's untouchable. The also-new Silverado seems to be its equal, all things taken into account, and there are new Ford and Dodge trucks and powertrains coming down the pipe soon. As much as you'd like them to, Toyota isn't going to just waltz into this segment and walk away from the pack like they did with cars in the 90s. The Big 3 are going to fight back ballz-out, so let's sit back and see if Toyota can handle some serious competition!
-FordSVT-

[SVT666]

See, that's the problem. I think you were hoping to be underwhelmed by the Silverado, and that's what happened in the end. You made up your mind beforehand.

Actually, I stuck that in there for your benefit.? Unlike a lot of other people I want GM to succeed and I was fairly disapointed with what I saw.? The interior that most buyers will be getting (hint: it's not the car-like interior of the high end model) is not even as good as the interior in my 2005 Ram.? I was hoping it would be better then my Ram's because Chevy desperately needs to be that good right now.? I was disapointed to see that it wasn't.? The exterior design looks awkward.? The fender flares look like afterthoughts and the front bumper is at least 3" lower then the rest of the body.? If a third person needs to sit in the front seat, then you lose your cupholders because they are on the seatback/armrest.? What really didn't make sense to me was that there was 3 cupholders, but only two people could use the cupholders when the seatback is down.

You'd probably have to drive all of them (F-150, Ram) to see where the Silverado is superior - refinement, handling, rigidity, etc. I've never been a fan of the updated Ram's styling, and the interior is certainly outdone by the Ford and Chevy.

I disagree with that.? maybe the high end interior is beter then the Ram's, but the interior that the vast majority of buyers will be getting is outdone by Dodge.? The F-150 is so nice, it's too nice.? But it is obviously the nicest interior in a full size truck...by a large margin.

The F-150 is a great truck, but I'm not a Ford fan at all (I know, shocking). When all three are relatively close in terms of capability, it's the small details that end up swaying a person one way or the other.

I agree, however the small things that matter to me (like storage compartments, etc.) are obviously different then what matters to you.

Personally, I'd take the Sierra over the Silverado, followed by the F-150 and the Ram. The Tundra would certainly be in contention, but I've heard some interesting complaints from people who've gotten some seat time thus far.

I would take the Ram (which I did), then the F-150, the Sierra, and Silverado.? I can't comment on the Tundra because I have never even seen one in person.

[MX793]

Your list also includes different versions of the same car, and lightly facelifted cars like the E-Class.

But let's say they would write about all those cars. Are you saying they couldn't dedicate 34 pages to car reviews in the 10Best issue?

Where, other than the GT500 and Mustang GT, did I list different versions of the same same model as seperate entities?  I'm pretty sure I grouped all of them together other than the Mustang and Shelby.  That list, as published in C&D, is a bit longer on account of their not grouping variants together as I did (they list the 3 different versions of the Z4 as 3 different cars, for instance).  Also, the E class was up for a 10Best on account of new engines (the Blutec diesel and new V8) for '07, it wasn't just a mild facelift.

And it would be more than 34 pages for the 10Best, it would be 34 pages on top of the 12 or so they already run which would be significantly more than MT puts into their COTY article.  If there were less than 30 cars contending as with MT's COTY awards, yes, I would expect them to write a little something about each, but when there are more than 40 models being considered, that's a bit much.  Unless, of course, you are proposing they change the rules so that last years winners can't return and they only consider brand spanking new (or fully redesigned) models and not revised models as they currently do, which would cut the list down.

[GoCougs]

I think it's funny that on one hand you'll tell people to stop magazine racing, and then you'll turn around and (not for the first time) spit out these exact same specs for a truck you've never driven. I think it's great that, after multiple tries, Toyota came out with a truck that can stand along side the domestics, but it's not so far ahead of the pack it's untouchable. The also-new Silverado seems to be its equal, all things taken into account, and there are new Ford and Dodge trucks and powertrains coming down the pipe soon. As much as you'd like them to, Toyota isn't going to just waltz into this segment and walk away from the pack like they did with cars in the 90s. The Big 3 are going to fight back ballz-out, so let's sit back and see if Toyota can handle some serious competition!
-FordSVT-

In six model years, Japan went from 0% to about 10% market share for all full-size pickups. Filter out the 3/4- and 1-tons, and Japan has about 13-15% of the half-ton market. That is much faster progress than they did in the car market.

[SVT666]

In six model years, Japan went from 0% to about 10% market share for all full-size pickups. Filter out the 3/4- and 1-tons, and Japan has about 13-15% of the half-ton market. That is much faster progress than they did in the car market.

That's because there were a lot of Red Foremans back in day.  I don't see Japan stealing a lot of pickup sales only because the domestics haven't given consumers a reason to leave like they did with the cars.

[93JC]

That's because there were a lot of Red Foremans back in day.

The Foremans had, along with the Vista Cruiser and later-on in the series Red's C1 Corvette, a Toyota.

[SVT666]

The Foremans had, along with the Vista Cruiser and later-on in the series Red's C1 Corvette, a Toyota.

That's true, but he hated it and the Japanese that built it. 

[VetteZ06]

The interior that most buyers will be getting (hint: it's not the car-like interior of the high end model) is not even as good as the interior in my 2005 Ram.

You're the first person I've heard that from. But hey, it's supposed to be the "work truck" interior, so I'm not concerned too much about it. I've heard positive comments about it in most (if not all) of the automotive publications, so it won't keep me up at night. If they want a better-than-Ram, they've got one readily available. You can't fault GM for giving them options, right? They've got one that will satisfy most people looking for a plain truck interior, and they've got one that will satisfy others that are looking for more luxury. Problem solved.

I disagree with that.? maybe the high end interior is beter then the Ram's, but the interior that the vast majority of buyers will be getting is outdone by Dodge.? The F-150 is so nice, it's too nice.? But it is obviously the nicest interior in a full size truck...by a large margin.

I'll have to take a look for myself, because I wasn't as impressed with the F-150's interior as you seem to be - particularly the door panels, which felt pretty cheap. The Ram's is okay, but the design is lacking and it suffers from the usual DaimlerChrysler materials choices.

I agree, however the small things that matter to me (like storage compartments, etc.) are obviously different then what matters to you.

I haven't really said what is/is not important to me in a truck, but I guess it doesn't really matter anyway.

I would take the Ram (which I did), then the F-150, the Sierra, and Silverado.? I can't comment on the Tundra because I have never even seen one in person.

I'm not surprised to find that your order is the reverse of mine. We just have a fundamental difference of opinion. You like the Ram, I don't. I like the Sierra/Silverado, you don't.

[VetteZ06]

In six model years, Japan went from 0% to about 10% market share for all full-size pickups. Filter out the 3/4- and 1-tons, and Japan has about 13-15% of the half-ton market. That is much faster progress than they did in the car market.

Perhaps because Nissan and Toyota already good reputations to build off of when the Titan and Tundra were launched? When they started out with cars, they had no established reputations, which is obviously going to hamper progress when trying to sell cars to the American public.

[SVT666]

You're the first person I've heard that from. But hey, it's supposed to be the "work truck" interior, so I'm not concerned too much about it. I've heard positive comments about it in most (if not all) of the automotive publications, so it won't keep me up at night. If they want a better-than-Ram, they've got one readily available. You can't fault GM for giving them options, right? They've got one that will satisfy most people looking for a plain truck interior, and they've got one that will satisfy others that are looking for more luxury. Problem solved.

However in order to get that interior you have to spend a pretty penny.? I don't fault GM for giving options at all, I just wish that the base interior had a little more going for it.

I'll have to take a look for myself, because I wasn't as impressed with the F-150's interior as you seem to be - particularly the door panels, which felt pretty cheap. The Ram's is okay, but the design is lacking and it suffers from the usual DaimlerChrysler materials choices.

...which are a lot better then the materials I saw on the Silverado dash.

I haven't really said what is/is not important to me in a truck, but I guess it doesn't really matter anyway.

I was guessing, since the trucks we prefer are different.

I'm not surprised to find that your order is the reverse of mine. We just have a fundamental difference of opinion. You like the Ram, I don't. I like the Sierra/Silverado, you don't.

We at least agree on one thing?

[ifcar]

Where, other than the GT500 and Mustang GT, did I list different versions of the same same model as seperate entities?  I'm pretty sure I grouped all of them together other than the Mustang and Shelby.  That list, as published in C&D, is a bit longer on account of their not grouping variants together as I did (they list the 3 different versions of the Z4 as 3 different cars, for instance).  Also, the E class was up for a 10Best on account of new engines (the Blutec diesel and new V8) for '07, it wasn't just a mild facelift.

And it would be more than 34 pages for the 10Best, it would be 34 pages on top of the 12 or so they already run which would be significantly more than MT puts into their COTY article.  If there were less than 30 cars contending as with MT's COTY awards, yes, I would expect them to write a little something about each, but when there are more than 40 models being considered, that's a bit much.  Unless, of course, you are proposing they change the rules so that last years winners can't return and they only consider brand spanking new (or fully redesigned) models and not revised models as they currently do, which would cut the list down.

I'm not just talking about different versions of the same car within the same year, but cars re-examined for minor modifications or different engines. Monte Carlo SS, E-Class, etc.

But I still think they should find room for reviews/explanations. Not much point in evaluating a car that doesn't have a shot at winning (some are pretty obvious) and then not sharing the impressions, and an explanation of why a car is the best is incomplete without an explanation of why the other contenders are worse.

[VetteZ06]

However in order to get that interior you have to spend a pretty penny.? I don't fault GM for giving options at all, I just wish that the base interior had a little more going for it.

How much more does the up-level interior cost?

...which are a lot better then the materials I saw on the Silverado dash.

This is what I'm talking about. Here's a quote from the Edmunds' test of the new Silverado (they had the standard interior):

"Materials quality was one of the previous Silverado's biggest flaws and Chevrolet has woken up on this front, too. We wouldn't call the dash plastics the best stuff we've ever seen, but they're as good, or better, than any other full-size truck. Even the feel of the various knobs is smoother and more refined."

As good as or better than any other full-size truck. I'm more inclined to take their word for it, mostly because they never have a problem letting us know when an automaker has bungled the interior of a new vehicle.

We at least agree on one thing?

[ifcar]

The new Silverado base interior isn't much to look at, but the quality is definitely there. Much nicer than the Ram, at least in my opinion.

The outside of the regular cab Silverados is awful though.

[VetteZ06]

The outside of the regular cab Silverados is awful though.

I'm in agreement with you here. This is precisely why I would take the Sierra over the Silverado. The same was true of the last-generation trucks, too (after the refresh, anyway).

[ifcar]

This isn't pretty, but it's inoffensive:


This is offensive: