Ford screws Hertz! Ha Ha!

[SVT666]

Believe it or not, I'm happy about this.? Whether intentional or not (not, is my guess) Ford screws Hertz.  I'm tired of seeing cars sell for so much more then they're worth.? The three Shelby GT350H rentals did not sell at auction because of the retail versions of the Hertz cars are available now for much less then the $48K reserve that Hertz placed on the cars.

http://www.mustangnewsnet.com/News-03-04-07.html

[Nethead]

HEMI666: Nah, HemiDude--Hertz screwed themselves by ordering only automatic transmissions.  Still, someone will make money on these down the road--the original Hertz G.T. 350s were mostly automatics, too.  A fun car would be one of these with the Tremec 6060 from the GT500!

[SVT666]

HEMI666: Nah, HemiDude--Hertz screwed themselves by ordering only automatic transmissions.? Still, someone will make money on these down the road--the original Hertz G.T. 350s were mostly automatics, too.? A fun car would be one of these with the Tremec 6060 from the GT500!

I don't think it has anything to do with the slushboxes.  It has everything to do with Ford offering the same car for less money with the Shelby name on the back. 

[Tave]

I think it was the fact that hundreds of people could have beat the shit out of them. No one wants a car like that for 50K.

There are also a lot of different types of mustangs on the market. Not every release will be a hit.

[Raza]

The Shelby GT350 is on sale?

[S204STi]

HEMI666: Nah, HemiDude--Hertz screwed themselves by ordering only automatic transmissions.? Still, someone will make money on these down the road--the original Hertz G.T. 350s were mostly automatics, too.? A fun car would be one of these with the Tremec 6060 from the GT500!

The Nethead here is a dumbass if he thinks most Mustang owners drive or want a stick.

[SVT666]

The Shelby GT350 is on sale?

They are apparently shipping already.

[ChrisV]

Believe it or not, I'm happy about this.  Whether intentional or not (not, is my guess) Ford screws Hertz.

Isn't Hertz a division of Ford anyhow? Oh, wait, that's right, Ford just sold it off. Wow. Too bad for Hertz...

[GoCougs]

Hertz has revenue of more than $7B, so I surmise that they don't care one iota on the resale value of 500 used rental cars...

[SVT666]

Hertz has revenue of more than $7B, so I surmise that they don't care one iota on the resale value of 500 used rental cars...

Except when they can't sell them.

[Soup DeVille]

I think it was the fact that hundreds of people could have beat the shit out of them. No one wants a car like that for 50K.

There are also a lot of different types of mustangs on the market. Not every release will be a hit.

I'm actually surprised at this. For one, these are very low mileage rental cars- I believe Hertz set a 5000 Mile moratorium on them. For another, there is no retail version of this exact model, and Mustang nuts and speculators will always almost pay very good money for such a limited run of vehicles like these.

But again, this is no real loss for anyone. Hertz has more than made its money out of them with the amount of publicity these things have garnered. I'm sure Ford sold them at a good price in the first place. And the would-be collectors get a cheaper buy-in for a sure-thing future collectible.

Win. Win. Win.

What's the problem again?

[Payman]

After reading C/D's experience when they rented 3 GT-H's, I laugh at Hertz for being such pricks. Good on them.

[Tave]

I'm actually surprised at this. For one, these are very low mileage rental cars- I believe Hertz set a 5000 Mile moratorium on them. For another, there is no retail version of this exact model, and Mustang nuts and speculators will always almost pay very good money for such a limited run of vehicles like these.

But again, this is no real loss for anyone. Hertz has more than made its money out of them with the amount of publicity these things have garnered. I'm sure Ford sold them at a good price in the first place. And the would-be collectors get a cheaper buy-in for a sure-thing future collectible.

Win. Win. Win.

What's the problem again?

Oh great, so during the most critical period in the engine's life a bunch of people who cared nothing about the car got to do anything they wanted to it (short of physical damage, and even then...)

I'd stay away like it was the plague.

[ChrisV]

Oh great, so during the most critical period in the engine's life a bunch of people who cared nothing about the car got to do anything they wanted to it (short of physical damage, and even then...)

I'd stay away like it was the plague.

Once again, the original Shelby Hertz rentals were abused as well, and they became instant collector classics, and still are. Collectors care about rarity; rebuilding the engine is easy.

[Nethead]

The Nethead here is a dumbass if he thinks most Mustang owners drive or want a stick.

R-inge: InchDude, t-h-i-n-k.  Try it--it doesn't hurt THAT much! 

The people who buy automatic Mustangs aren't the people in the market for the handling pack, the engine upgrade pack, yada yada yada.  Else, they wouldn't be buying automatics...For forty years the Nethead here has read automotive editorial after automotive editorial about the huge flaw in the original Hertz G.T. 350s: the slushbox.  It hurt the resale of the G.T. 350 back in the day and it is hurting the resale value of the GT-H today--why pay for an engine upgrade and a handling pack and then screw the roadracing performance with an autofuckingmatic?

In fact, GT-Hs come with automatics specifically to discourage rentalracing--which is why the original Hertz G.T. 350s came with automatics and why the GT-Hs have them today.

Now, if you're still in pain from our little exercise of engaging the brain before engaging the keyboard, take two Tylenols and call Dr. Nethead here in the morning and I'll schedule a shock therapy session for tomorrow afternoon at Walter Reed...

[ChrisV]

In fact, GT-Hs come with automatics specifically to discourage rentalracing--which is why the original Hertz G.T. 350s came with automatics and why the GT-Hs have them today.

Just a minor correction, the originals had either stick OR automatic

http://www.nvsaac.com/photogallery/images/Literature/1966/1966_HERTZ_ad1.jpg

And the autboxes aren't what's hurting current sales. It's that people aren't going to pay a premium yet for these slightly limited edition cars. Maybe in 20 years, but not now. Not like the auctioned GT500 for charity. Not like the original GT350-H cars even with automatics.

[SVT666]

R-inge: InchDude, t-h-i-n-k.? Try it--it doesn't hurt THAT much!?

The people who buy automatic Mustangs aren't the people in the market for the handling pack, the engine upgrade pack, yada yada yada.? Else, they wouldn't be buying automatics...For forty years the Nethead here has read automotive editorial after automotive editorial about the huge flaw in the original Hertz G.T. 350s: the slushbox.? It hurt the resale of the G.T. 350 back in the day and it is hurting the resale value of the GT-H today--why pay for an engine upgrade and a handling pack and then screw the roadracing performance with an autofuckingmatic?

In fact, GT-Hs come with automatics specifically to discourage rentalracing--which is why the original Hertz G.T. 350s came with automatics and why the GT-Hs have them today.

Now, if you're still in pain from our little exercise of engaging the brain before engaging the keyboard, take two Tylenols and call Dr. Nethead here in the morning and I'll schedule a shock therapy session for tomorrow afternoon at Walter Reed...

Maybe so, but they also put autos in them to prevent clutch replacements every time someone rented one.  When only 8% of all cars sold in the US have manuals, it would be kinda stupid to rent a manual tranny car to people who don't know how to shift their own gears.

[Nethead]

ChrisV & Hemi666: Excellent responses by you both!? A four-speed Hertz G.T. 350 back in the day was damned rare--and I don't recall any magazine ever getting anything to roadtest but an automatic.? To be fair, it wasn't necessary to do that since non-Hertz G.T. 350s with manuals were readily available for testing.? The Nethead here was waaayy under twenty-five, the minimum age to rent one, so it was not an issue for me or anyone I knew.?

My little hometown only had one G.T. 350 ever, and never had a G.T. 500.? It was a Lime Gold (I believe that's "Legend Gold" in today's parlance) '67 with white stripes, and it was beautiful!? The wealthy dude who bought it for his kid was lucky the kid didn't kill himself when he totalled it a few months after taking delivery of it.

Check out just how many straight-drive G.T. 350s were purchased by Hertz--was it even fifty?? In short, less than one per state if it was a total less than fifty...

And that 8 percent figure has only limited application here:? we will know how "popular" automatics are with the handling-kit-and-engine-upgrade set when sales figures come in for the Shelby GTs, which offer both automatics or manuals.? My bet is that waaayy over half will buy manuals for the same reasons the three of us would.? The vast majority of those who insist upon automatics ain't likely to be those who also insist upon firm-riding handling kits, although there are bound to be some in a country with 300 million residents, legal or otherwise...

[SVT666]

ChrisV & Hemi666: Excellent responses by you both!? A four-speed G.T. 350 back in the day was damned rare--and I don't recall any magazine ever getting anything to roadtest but an automatic.? To be fair, it wasn't necessary to do that since non-Hertz G.T. 350s with manuals were readily available for testing.? The Nethead here was waaayy under twenty-five, the minimum age to rent one, so it was not an issue for me or anyone I knew.?

My little hometown only had one G.T. 350 ever, and never had a G.T. 500.? It was a Lime Gold (I believe that's "Legend Gold" in today's parlance) '67 with white stripes, and it was beautiful!? The wealthy dude who bought it for his kid was lucky the kid didn't kill himself when he totalled it a few months after taking delivery of it.

Check out just how many straight-drive G.T. 350s were purchased by Hertz--was it even fifty?? In short, less than one per state if it was a total less than fifty...

And that 8 percent figure has only limited application here:? we will know how "popular" automatics are with the handling-kit-and-engine-upgrade set when sales figures come in for the Shelby GTs, which offer both automatics or manuals.? My bet is that waaayy over half will buy manuals for the same reasons the three of us would.? The vast majority of those who insist upon automatics ain't likely to be those who also insist upon firm-riding handling kits, although there are bound to be some in a country with 300 million residents, legal or otherwise...

I'm saying that the vast majority of people in North America have no idea how to drive a stick and that is why Hertz doesn't order manual tranny Mustangs of any kind.  They will be replacing clutches after every rent.  The Shelby GT's will beb ought by enthusiasts, so manuals make sense.

[Nethead]

I'm saying that the vast majority of people in North America have no idea how to drive a stick and that is why Hertz doesn't order manual tranny Mustangs of any kind.? They will be replacing clutches after every rent.? The Shelby GT's will beb ought by enthusiasts, so manuals make sense.

I agree with you totally on why Hertz equipped the GT-Hs with automatics. ? And that's how Hertz fucked themselves over in resale value--an automatic in a car with an engine upgrade kit and a handling kit is like a Harley-Davidson with training wheels...

Waaayyy back in the day, the only used G.T. 350s for sale were the Hertz G.T. 350s, so you had to buy a used Hertz G.T. 350 with a slushbox if you couldn't afford a new G.T. 350 with a 4-speed.? Those fortunate folks who had purchased the non-Hertz 4-speed manual G.T. 350s weren't gonna part with them--they were always rare, and were the SCCA B Production sportscar champions (Cobra 427s were the SCCA A Production sportscar champions).?

Just last month Shelby began delivering 5-speed manual Shelby GTs to customers--which would you rather have?? Me, too...

[SVT666]

I agree with you totally on why Hertz equipped the GT-Hs with automatics.? And that's how Hertz fucked themselves over in resale value--an automatic in a car with an engine upgrade kit and a handling kit is like a Harley-Davidson with training wheels...

Waaayyy back in the day, the only used G.T. 350s for sale were the Hertz G.T. 350s, so you had to buy a used Hertz G.T. 350 with a slushbox if you couldn't afford a new G.T. 350 with a 4-speed.? Those fortunate folks who had purchased the manual G.T. 350s weren't gonna part with them without turning a hefty profit (the mechanical condition of the used manual G.T. 350s defined just how hefty the profit was that the owner could expect).? But they were waaaayyy cool, even if they were ex-rental!

Most of the cars that are bought won't be driven so I don't see the autos as being a deterrent.  I would buy one if I could afford it and then stick a high stall converter and a shift kit in it and then bump the power up and take it to the strip.  But then again, that's just me.

[S204STi]

The NetHead here needs to go to a classic car show or auction and pay attention to how many cars are in fact automatics.  A huge proportion in fact, particularly in the ranks of the rare and hopped up.  I think rather hard all of the time, and I come to the conclusion that you like to pitch your incredibly arrogant opinion as undeniable fact.

[Raghavan]

The R-inge here has a WRX so the Nethead is wrong.

[S204STi]

The R-inge here has a WRX so the Nethead is wrong.

pfff, hardly... I don't want to win the argument by virtue of my car, there are lots of nicer cars on these boards.  I just think his arguments are equal to crimping off a juicy turd in your hat.

[omicron]

The NetHead here needs to go to a classic car show or auction and pay attention to how many cars are in fact automatics. A huge proportion in fact, particularly in the ranks of the rare and hopped up. I think rather hard all of the time, and I come to the conclusion that you like to pitch your incredibly arrogant opinion as undeniable fact.

The TorqueFlite 3-speed automatic is very common in Chrysler Corp. muscle cars of the late 60s and 70s.

[ChrisV]

The TorqueFlite 3-speed automatic is very common in Chrysler Corp. muscle cars of the late 60s and 70s.

To be fair, most 4 speed manuals in the '60s had external linkages that had many points of wear that induced slop in the shifter, making many of them quickly become "mystery shifters." they weren't the smooth, short throw shifters of modern cars:



Rowing through the gears here could be an exercise in frustration, while the quick shifting automatics were more consistent, handled the power better, and were, in fact, the better choice.

They don't generally work well in a road race situation, however, by virtue of not having multiple gear ratios to choose from when setting them up, usually fewer gear ratios in the trans itself so not being perfectly suited to any track, and easily overheated in road race applications. Though Jim Hall's Chaparrel sports racers did successfully use them behind big blocks in the '60s (with semi automatic valve bodies)

Automatics are good, however in autocross situations behind more powerful torqey engines. I've used them to good results, as have many of my fellow competitors.

[Nethead]

R-Inge: InchDude, the Nethead here knows there are lots of automatics at classic shows and auctions--I sold some vehicles at auctions when I sold Chevies for a living waaayy back when (Automatics, every one.  They'd all been wrecked and repaired, too, but their reputation was too well known in my hometown).

And a lot more automatics survived to be around for classic car shows--manuals led a tougher life, and were often the cars of choice by those who would make damned sure that they had a tougher life.

Is your WRX an automatic?   I thought so...

When sales of the Shelby GT are established--and assuming we can find a website that provides the info we need--you will see that the 5-speed manuals will greatly outsell the automatics.  We ain't talkin' Malibus or Sebrings or Crown Vics here...

InchDude, I hate to talk down to you--it isn't out of arrogance but out of necessity--but having sold new and used cars for a living once (Have you, by the way?), I can tell you that the handling pack and engine upgrade crowd seldom screw it up by specifying an automatic.  Sometimes, you have to settle for an automatic to get the used car you want--the Nethead here did when he bought a used '69 Mercury Cyclone Ram-Air CJ428.  They were uncommon when new, and rare by the time I bought one years later...

Now, Hertz has their reasons for equipping their GT-Hs with automatics--as HEMI666 explained elegantly earlier if you happened to have read his postings.  But now customers aren't restricted to auctioned off Hertz GT-H automatics or pricey new GT500s to get the handling pack and engine upgrades already in place--they can get the Shelby GTs with all the perf parts of the GT-H and a 5-speed manual to boot.  Sure, they gotta get a dorky hoodscoop and tacky side scoops, but those can be removed or rendered functional if you have a little mechanical skill and a Sawzall.

Before you come back with something like "So Nethead, if what you say is true, why did someone pay $90,000 for the first auctioned GT-H automatic and why did the early ones that followed average over $60,000 at auction?"  The answer is obvious:  They're Shelby GT-Hs--and they're valuable with any transmission because of what they are and because there were only 500 produced.  Now that the 5-speeds are available and being delivered in Shelby GTs, the GT-Hs are not bringing the minimum sale price floor of $48,000--an early indication that automatics aren't that popular in this type of car when 5-speed manuals are available in essentially an identical car.  To be fair, the Shelby GTs are brand new and list for around $36,000--$37,000, but they aren't true GT-Hs...Shelby GTs can be ordered with automatics, too,  so after awhile there should be sufficient sales of Shelby GTs to see the actual percentage of these cars that will be sold with automatics.  The percentage that will be sold with automatics will be low enough that you will see that Hertz screwed up the GT-H's resale value by specifying automatics in all of them. 

Be aware that dealerships will probably stock a lot of Shelby GT automatics in an effort to salvage customers who can't drive 5-speeds--it would be best if we could get the stats for just those purchasers who order a car instead of buying whatever is readily available on the dealer's lot.  A lot of people buy from the stock on the lot--if there are four Shelby GTs on the lot and all four are automatics, a lot of customers won't wait for delivery of a 5-speed manual model from Shelby.  Salesmen prefer to sell you the stock on hand--they get their commissions sooner, you might back out later, only the discounts on the car that day apply--bigger discounts may apply next month, the dealers have already invested in the stock on hand so they want  to get that investment back, yada yada yada...That's when the dude in plaid will throw his arm around your shoulder and say "You two are a really nice couple, and I want you to have this car--give me a few minutes to see what kinda deal I can work out with the sales manager here and see if we can't send you home in this beauty today.  Why don't you and the little lady take her for a spin while I twist Ralph's arm a little and see what we can do?  Are the keys in the car you're tradin' in?"  You know the spin...

Now, InchDude, you'll take exception with every letter in this posting because, well, you are you.  We can tell by your name-calling and language how resistant you are to the facts.  But they are still the facts, so deny them or accept them as you choose.  It's a forum, right?  Why let a few facts get in the way or your opinions?

[SVT666]

To be fair, most 4 speed manuals in the '60s had external linkages that had many points of wear that induced slop in the shifter, making many of them quickly become "mystery shifters." they weren't the smooth, short throw shifters of modern cars:



Rowing through the gears here could be an exercise in frustration, while the quick shifting automatics were more consistent, handled the power better, and were, in fact, the better choice.

They don't generally work well in a road race situation, however, by virtue of not having multiple gear ratios to choose from when setting them up, usually fewer gear ratios in the trans itself so not being perfectly suited to any track, and easily overheated in road race applications. Though Jim Hall's Chaparrel sports racers did successfully use them behind big blocks in the '60s (with semi automatic valve bodies)

Automatics are good, however in autocross situations behind more powerful torqey engines. I've used them to good results, as have many of my fellow competitors.

They're also very good on the strip with a higher stall converter and shift kit.

[omicron]

Any Monaro GTS 350 driver knew that attempting to change gear quickly with the 4-speed manual was likely to result in shrapnel all over the road.

[Nethead]

Any Monaro GTS 350 driver knew that attempting to change gear quickly with the 4-speed manual was likely to result in shrapnel all over the road.

omicron: Totally true posting, OmiDude!  Automatics shift quickly and with little mechanical trauma, to be sure.  They're pretty rugged, too, especially if you have one of the old Chrysler TorqFlytes!

This can be an advantage in dragracing, done in a straight line with hopefully no need to downshift suddenly and without warning. 

But on the streets and especially on the roadracing circuits, there's a lot of WTF--cars sideways, cars hittin' retaining walls, cars sailing thru the grass, and cars generally trying to DNF your ass.  The Shelby GT-H is configured more for roadracing than dragracing--Car and Driver rented four of them to whip around Virginia International Raceway last year and the article mentions the handicaps an automatic can create on curves in traffic when you're in a hurry--or trying to be...

Those who need further proof of the desirability of manual transmissions over automatic transmissions need only compose a single-spaced list of all the roadracing wins by vehicles equipped with automatic transmissions on 8.5" X 11" paper.  Then do the same for all the roadracing wins by vehicles equipped with manual transmissions.  Weigh the two resulting stacks of paper.  Then you can toss the list of wins with automatic tranmissions into the office round file and hire some steamshovels and a fleet of dump trucks to remove the list of wins with manual transmissions...

Even oil millionaire Jim Hall had scant success in endurance racing with automatic-transmissioned Chaparrals, and he even had factory tech support to add to all the advantages he had at his disposal with his oil earnings.  To be fair, he had lots and lots of DNFs not caused by the automatics in his Chaparrals--when I was in the Army in Monterey, CA, a Chaparral even blew an engine on the parade lap at Laguna Seca in 1970!  OTOH, those automatics left his drivers pushin' often enough even when everything else was working...