Audi A4 2.0t vs BMW 330i

[BMWDave]

M3 with Premium Package for $3,300, and with BMW On-Board Navigation System  for $1,800 , and with heated front seats, comes out to $53,595.  It also comes with a power moonroof, and Power Front Seats with Driver Memory0, and BMW Assist with Bluetooth? Wireless Technology. 

Very competitive with the S4.

It isn't a sedan, now is it? You aren't winning this one.

The fact is that under the circumstances they could not get an S4.  

That aside, an M3 competes with the S4.  Both are high performance sedans (the BMW can seat 4 pretty well, its not as if its a roadster), and until BMW makes a 4 door M3 again, the S4's nearest competitor is the M3.  

And youre fixated on "winning" the argument....I'm just trying to have a conversation here.  Anyway, I have to study for a final tomorrow, so I'll check in again tomorrow.  

have a good night, and no hard feelings  

[TBR]

M3 with Premium Package for $3,300, and with BMW On-Board Navigation System  for $1,800 , and with heated front seats, comes out to $53,595.  It also comes with a power moonroof, and Power Front Seats with Driver Memory0, and BMW Assist with Bluetooth? Wireless Technology. 

Very competitive with the S4.

It isn't a sedan, now is it? You aren't winning this one.

The fact is that under the circumstances they could not get an S4.  

That aside, an M3 competes with the S4.  Both are high performance sedans (the BMW can seat 4 pretty well, its not as if its a roadster), and until BMW makes a 4 door M3 again, the S4's nearest competitor is the M3.  

And youre fixated on "winning" the argument....I'm just trying to have a conversation here.  Anyway, I have to study for a final tomorrow, so I'll check in again tomorrow.  

have a good night, and no hard feelings

How do you know that? I didn't read anything that indicated that that was the case.

I will agree with that, but the manual 330i's nearest competitor from Audi is the S4 and therefore the S4 should have been used in the comparo. No argument there, right?

Then how come you are using the "I'm right and you're wrong" tone that is typically associated with arguments (though you use it pretty much any time anyone says something bad about a BMW)?

[ifcar]

I don't think that you could really consider the 330i that close to the S4. The main difference is that the 330i is a popular, mainstream version of the car, while the S4 is not. While the two cars may be theoretically closer, they aren't really close competitors. Audi doesn't offer a mainstream version of the A4 with a higher-end engine and a manual transmission, so except for an auto vs. manual comparison, there really isn't a competing A4.

[TBR]

I don't think that you could really consider the 330i that close to the S4. The main difference is that the 330i is a popular, mainstream version of the car, while the S4 is not. While the two cars may be theoretically closer, they aren't really close competitors. Audi doesn't offer a mainstream version of the A4 with a higher-end engine and a manual transmission, so except for an auto vs. manual comparison, there really isn't a competing A4.

Exactly, that is what they should have used the 325i. But, if they used the 330i they should have used the S4 also as it is closer in price to the 330i than the A4 2.0t is.  

[ifcar]

I'd say a 325i vs. A4 2.0T, or a 330i automatic vs. A4 3.2 automatic would have made a much more reasonable comparison. IMO, neither what you propose nor what Edmunds did makes a great deal of sense.

[TBR]

I'd say a 325i vs. A4 2.0T, or a 330i automatic vs. A4 3.2 automatic would have made a much more reasonable comparison. IMO, neither what you propose nor what Edmunds did makes a great deal of sense.

Yes, but what I proposed makes more sense than what Edmunds did, right? That is all I am trying to show.  

[ifcar]

I'd say it makes about as little sense.

[TBR]

I'd say it makes about as little sense.

But there is a smaller price difference.  

[Lebowski]

Damn.  I like the 330, but I just priced it online, and it came out to $44,340.  Seems a bit steep, eh?

I like BMW, but I hate the way they nickel and dime you on every little option.  I like the way Acura does it - everything's included, except navigation, and that's $2k extra.  If only I could get BMW RWD and handling w/ acura accessories standard.

[saxonyron]

OK TBR and BMWDave - sit back, take a deep breath.  I think what started this whole thing is the dorky premise that Edmunds used.  The comparison ends up being rather pointless, so don't stress out about it.  

I read their reasoning and what they were trying to do, but comparing 2 cars with a 55 HP (28%) delta and $5,400 (15%) price difference is decidedly nutty.  They stated the Audi amenities were great, etc. but there's no way a magazine (or anyone else) would choose the vastly lesser powered car as the winner.  C&D, even with their faults, would never have done such a thing.  They would have said, "One has a 255HP V6 but only comes with Tiptronic, the other comes with a 255 HP V6 and comes with a 6 spd manual...."  The tranny doesn't make or break the car.  

Sadly, Audi decided not to import the 6 spd manual witht the 3.2L.  I'm a huge Audi fan, but that's a big knock on them, IMO.  They degrade their sport/luxury image by eliminating the manuals.  Hopefully that will change - the DSG looks like it'll be popping up on new models soon - not pure, but much better than a slushbox.

[saxonyron]

And as far as arguing opinions, you BMW guys shouldn't be so alarmed that anyone would choose an Audi.  I'm a fan but it's because of taste and personal history.  I owned an '86 Coupe GT back when, I've almost always rented them when in Germany and have many blissful memories of 130 mph autobahn runs, and I like the fact that Audi is the less popular brand - I don't see one on every street corner like BMWs.   It's kind of a private joke we Audi guys have - we have more luxury, a similar or better ride, and more anonymity than the BMW guys have - and 80% of the public hardly notices us.  But I still love BMW's too - if the tables turn and I don't like Audi's offerings and BMW fits the bill better, I could see myself switching.....maybe.....

Besides, both cars have quirky styling issues - Audi's big grill, and BMW's 5 and 7 series bungled Bangle beating with the ugly stick :blink: .  No one here should throw any stones - we all live in glass houses!

[850CSi]

I don't think that you could really consider the 330i that close to the S4. The main difference is that the 330i is a popular, mainstream version of the car, while the S4 is not. While the two cars may be theoretically closer, they aren't really close competitors. Audi doesn't offer a mainstream version of the A4 with a higher-end engine and a manual transmission, so except for an auto vs. manual comparison, there really isn't a competing A4.

Exactly, that is what they should have used the 325i. But, if they used the 330i they should have used the S4 also as it is closer in price to the 330i than the A4 2.0t is.

The S4 is MUCH harder-edged than the 330i is. And it would blow it away in every performance aspect for that reason. IMO it makes even less sense to compare the 330i to an S4 than the 2.0T. It makes no sense at all. The argument could then be made to just bring an M3.

[850CSi]

You can't go wrong with either.

Honestly, I would never buy a 330i. I'd rather get a 325i so I could pocket $6K and remove 130lbs from the equation. Especially since the 325i in stock form runs mid 6s to 60. That's fast enough for me. More than enough. And it's more economical.


The A4 is a really special car. Although not as nice as the inline-6s, the Audi turbos sound reaaaaaally nice. And there's something about the way the A4 steers and rides that just impresses... It has a lot of 'confidence' in the way it feels, probably in part because of quattro. AWD is big for a lot of people in the North, and the A4s interior is easily waaaay bettter than the 3er's.





All of that said... Has anyone else realized just how much better the 3-Series appears to be on the inside when compared to the 5 and X3?
The difference is alarming.


I've been in Grey E60 and X3 interiors... They were absolutely disgusting. I would probably get a 3-Series interior in beige or even grey.




BTW...
I'm still trying to figure out what the color in my Sig is... It looks like nothing they're offering here.

^That's Steel Grey, right?

[850CSi]

Hmmm my ideal 3-Series is a 325i with either Steel Grey or Monaco Blue exterior [I'd have to see both in person] and Grey Dakota Leather with Premium and Sport Packages.

I could probably get my hands on one for $35K, as I know a manager at Bill Jacobs BMW and we leased the X3 from them.

Although, you know what... I could really do without both the sport and premium packages. A base 325i is already loaded with standard features.

[ifcar]

OK TBR and BMWDave - sit back, take a deep breath.  I think what started this whole thing is the dorky premise that Edmunds used.  The comparison ends up being rather pointless, so don't stress out about it. 

I read their reasoning and what they were trying to do, but comparing 2 cars with a 55 HP (28%) delta and $5,400 (15%) price difference is decidedly nutty.  They stated the Audi amenities were great, etc. but there's no way a magazine (or anyone else) would choose the vastly lesser powered car as the winner.  C&D, even with their faults, would never have done such a thing.  They would have said, "One has a 255HP V6 but only comes with Tiptronic, the other comes with a 255 HP V6 and comes with a 6 spd manual...."  The tranny doesn't make or break the car. 

Sadly, Audi decided not to import the 6 spd manual witht the 3.2L.  I'm a huge Audi fan, but that's a big knock on them, IMO.  They degrade their sport/luxury image by eliminating the manuals.  Hopefully that will change - the DSG looks like it'll be popping up on new models soon - not pure, but much better than a slushbox.

C/D probably would have just used automatics for every car in their comparison test (it wouldn't be two-car only either), that's what they did when the G35 was still auto-only.  

[BMWDave]

M3 with Premium Package for $3,300, and with BMW On-Board Navigation System? for $1,800 , and with heated front seats, comes out to $53,595.? It also comes with a power moonroof, and Power Front Seats with Driver Memory0, and BMW Assist with Bluetooth? Wireless Technology.?

Very competitive with the S4.

It isn't a sedan, now is it? You aren't winning this one.

The fact is that under the circumstances they could not get an S4.  

That aside, an M3 competes with the S4.  Both are high performance sedans (the BMW can seat 4 pretty well, its not as if its a roadster), and until BMW makes a 4 door M3 again, the S4's nearest competitor is the M3.  

And youre fixated on "winning" the argument....I'm just trying to have a conversation here.  Anyway, I have to study for a final tomorrow, so I'll check in again tomorrow.  

have a good night, and no hard feelings

How do you know that? I didn't read anything that indicated that that was the case.

I will agree with that, but the manual 330i's nearest competitor from Audi is the S4 and therefore the S4 should have been used in the comparo. No argument there, right?

Then how come you are using the "I'm right and you're wrong" tone that is typically associated with arguments (though you use it pretty much any time anyone says something bad about a BMW)?

"The second email read: "Dear Audi, send us the sportiest A4 ya got. Sincerely, Inside Line." The response was the delivery of a bright red 2.0 T quattro sedan with a six-speed manual transmission, a sport package, a premium package, assorted other sundries and a sticker price of $35,995."

That's the car Audi delivered.

There certainly is an argument about whether the M3 compares to the S4.  IMO it does, and obviously you dont like that.  Its the high end version of the A4 line, and so is the M3 the highest end of the 3 line.  They both are not mainstream vehicles of any time.  They both are extremely similar in price.  

Until BMW brings out a 4 door M3, the closest thing that will compete with the S4 wll be the two door M3.  They both are very hard edged, very fast, and are very different than their "plebian" brotheres.  A 330i does not compete with a S4, becase, as Ifcar stated, one is a mainstream luxury sedan,  with the other being a hard edged machined.  Both come from in-house tuners, and both are extremely similar.  The 2 Door M3 is the S4's closest competitor until BMW brings out a 4 door M3.


And about the conversation/argument, if you want to call it an argument and turn it into a whole deal about who wins, and start calling names, then thats fine with me.  But I am not getting worked up over a keyboard at all, and I am just calmly typing my arguments.  I am not mad or anything, and I am simply having a conversation.  

[TBR]

"The second email read: "Dear Audi, send us the sportiest A4 ya got. Sincerely, Inside Line." The response was the delivery of a bright red 2.0 T quattro sedan with a six-speed manual transmission, a sport package, a premium package, assorted other sundries and a sticker price of $35,995."

Probably if they had asked for a S4 they would have gotten it.

And, I have never argued that the S4 doesn't compete with the M3, but it is also the closest competitor from Audi for the 330i. My price numbers show that, whether or not it is a sports model shouldn't matter.  

[BMWDave]

"The second email read: "Dear Audi, send us the sportiest A4 ya got. Sincerely, Inside Line." The response was the delivery of a bright red 2.0 T quattro sedan with a six-speed manual transmission, a sport package, a premium package, assorted other sundries and a sticker price of $35,995."

Probably if they had asked for a S4 they would have gotten it.

And, I have never argued that the S4 doesn't compete with the M3, but it is also the closest competitor from Audi for the 330i. My price numbers show that, whether or not it is a sports model shouldn't matter.

So its only about price now?  Just because their price tages are within 6K of each other they are similar cars?  If I would make that argument we would have a 40K Honda Odyssey competing with a Vette  

[TBR]

"The second email read: "Dear Audi, send us the sportiest A4 ya got. Sincerely, Inside Line." The response was the delivery of a bright red 2.0 T quattro sedan with a six-speed manual transmission, a sport package, a premium package, assorted other sundries and a sticker price of $35,995."

Probably if they had asked for a S4 they would have gotten it.

And, I have never argued that the S4 doesn't compete with the M3, but it is also the closest competitor from Audi for the 330i. My price numbers show that, whether or not it is a sports model shouldn't matter.

So its only about price now?  Just because their price tages are within 6K of each other they are similar cars?  If I would make that argument we would have a 40K Honda Odyssey competing with a Vette

Let me see, both the S4 and 330i have 4 doors and a similar amount of space. You have no argument, it doesn't matter whether or not one car is a special sports model, as long as the prices are close. Face it, the 3-series is wildly overpriced.

[BMWDave]

"The second email read: "Dear Audi, send us the sportiest A4 ya got. Sincerely, Inside Line." The response was the delivery of a bright red 2.0 T quattro sedan with a six-speed manual transmission, a sport package, a premium package, assorted other sundries and a sticker price of $35,995."

Probably if they had asked for a S4 they would have gotten it.

And, I have never argued that the S4 doesn't compete with the M3, but it is also the closest competitor from Audi for the 330i. My price numbers show that, whether or not it is a sports model shouldn't matter.

So its only about price now?  Just because their price tages are within 6K of each other they are similar cars?  If I would make that argument we would have a 40K Honda Odyssey competing with a Vette

Let me see, both the S4 and 330i have 4 doors and a similar amount of space. You have no argument, it doesn't matter whether or not one car is a special sports model, as long as the prices are close. Face it, the 3-series is wildly overpriced.

Now you try to turn the argument toward whether the 3er is overpriced....stick to one argument at a time.  I have provided many reasons why the M3 competes more with the S4 than the 330i does.

Hmm, let me see.  Both the A6 and the M5 have similar amounts of space, so that means they compete?

[TBR]

"The second email read: "Dear Audi, send us the sportiest A4 ya got. Sincerely, Inside Line." The response was the delivery of a bright red 2.0 T quattro sedan with a six-speed manual transmission, a sport package, a premium package, assorted other sundries and a sticker price of $35,995."

Probably if they had asked for a S4 they would have gotten it.

And, I have never argued that the S4 doesn't compete with the M3, but it is also the closest competitor from Audi for the 330i. My price numbers show that, whether or not it is a sports model shouldn't matter.

So its only about price now?  Just because their price tages are within 6K of each other they are similar cars?  If I would make that argument we would have a 40K Honda Odyssey competing with a Vette

Let me see, both the S4 and 330i have 4 doors and a similar amount of space. You have no argument, it doesn't matter whether or not one car is a special sports model, as long as the prices are close. Face it, the 3-series is wildly overpriced.

Now you try to turn the argument toward whether the 3er is overpriced....stick to one argument at a time.  I have provided many reasons why the M3 competes more with the S4 than the 330i does.

Hmm, let me see.  Both the A6 and the M5 have similar amounts of space, so that means they compete?

If the M5 is closer in price to the A6 than the 545i is, than yes! This is stupid, just because a car is a high performance model doesn't mean it has to be compared to high performance models.

[BMWDave]

"The second email read: "Dear Audi, send us the sportiest A4 ya got. Sincerely, Inside Line." The response was the delivery of a bright red 2.0 T quattro sedan with a six-speed manual transmission, a sport package, a premium package, assorted other sundries and a sticker price of $35,995."

Probably if they had asked for a S4 they would have gotten it.

And, I have never argued that the S4 doesn't compete with the M3, but it is also the closest competitor from Audi for the 330i. My price numbers show that, whether or not it is a sports model shouldn't matter.

So its only about price now?  Just because their price tages are within 6K of each other they are similar cars?  If I would make that argument we would have a 40K Honda Odyssey competing with a Vette

Let me see, both the S4 and 330i have 4 doors and a similar amount of space. You have no argument, it doesn't matter whether or not one car is a special sports model, as long as the prices are close. Face it, the 3-series is wildly overpriced.

Now you try to turn the argument toward whether the 3er is overpriced....stick to one argument at a time.  I have provided many reasons why the M3 competes more with the S4 than the 330i does.

Hmm, let me see.  Both the A6 and the M5 have similar amounts of space, so that means they compete?

If the M5 is closer in price to A6 than the 545i is, then yes! This is stupid, just because a car is a high performance model doesn't mean it has to be compared to high performance models.

So are you comparing them solely on price?  

[TBR]

"The second email read: "Dear Audi, send us the sportiest A4 ya got. Sincerely, Inside Line." The response was the delivery of a bright red 2.0 T quattro sedan with a six-speed manual transmission, a sport package, a premium package, assorted other sundries and a sticker price of $35,995."

Probably if they had asked for a S4 they would have gotten it.

And, I have never argued that the S4 doesn't compete with the M3, but it is also the closest competitor from Audi for the 330i. My price numbers show that, whether or not it is a sports model shouldn't matter.

So its only about price now?  Just because their price tages are within 6K of each other they are similar cars?  If I would make that argument we would have a 40K Honda Odyssey competing with a Vette

Let me see, both the S4 and 330i have 4 doors and a similar amount of space. You have no argument, it doesn't matter whether or not one car is a special sports model, as long as the prices are close. Face it, the 3-series is wildly overpriced.

Now you try to turn the argument toward whether the 3er is overpriced....stick to one argument at a time.  I have provided many reasons why the M3 competes more with the S4 than the 330i does.

Hmm, let me see.  Both the A6 and the M5 have similar amounts of space, so that means they compete?

If the M5 is closer in price to A6 than the 545i is, then yes! This is stupid, just because a car is a high performance model doesn't mean it has to be compared to high performance models.

So are you comparing them solely on price?

Price, room, and door count.  

[BMWDave]

"The second email read: "Dear Audi, send us the sportiest A4 ya got. Sincerely, Inside Line." The response was the delivery of a bright red 2.0 T quattro sedan with a six-speed manual transmission, a sport package, a premium package, assorted other sundries and a sticker price of $35,995."

Probably if they had asked for a S4 they would have gotten it.

And, I have never argued that the S4 doesn't compete with the M3, but it is also the closest competitor from Audi for the 330i. My price numbers show that, whether or not it is a sports model shouldn't matter.

So its only about price now?  Just because their price tages are within 6K of each other they are similar cars?  If I would make that argument we would have a 40K Honda Odyssey competing with a Vette

Let me see, both the S4 and 330i have 4 doors and a similar amount of space. You have no argument, it doesn't matter whether or not one car is a special sports model, as long as the prices are close. Face it, the 3-series is wildly overpriced.

Now you try to turn the argument toward whether the 3er is overpriced....stick to one argument at a time.  I have provided many reasons why the M3 competes more with the S4 than the 330i does.

Hmm, let me see.  Both the A6 and the M5 have similar amounts of space, so that means they compete?

If the M5 is closer in price to A6 than the 545i is, then yes! This is stupid, just because a car is a high performance model doesn't mean it has to be compared to high performance models.

So are you comparing them solely on price?

Price, room, and door count.

One can make many "comparisons" based on those attributes, when really the car you mentioned doesnt compete at all.  In idea and execution, the M3 competes with the S4, for all the reasons I said in the above post.  If you compared them based on room and door count, then a 325i would compete with an RS4, etc.  That leaves only price to compare them, and thats simply not enough to overcome all the reasons why they dont compete with each other.  

[TBR]

"The second email read: "Dear Audi, send us the sportiest A4 ya got. Sincerely, Inside Line." The response was the delivery of a bright red 2.0 T quattro sedan with a six-speed manual transmission, a sport package, a premium package, assorted other sundries and a sticker price of $35,995."

Probably if they had asked for a S4 they would have gotten it.

And, I have never argued that the S4 doesn't compete with the M3, but it is also the closest competitor from Audi for the 330i. My price numbers show that, whether or not it is a sports model shouldn't matter.

So its only about price now?  Just because their price tages are within 6K of each other they are similar cars?  If I would make that argument we would have a 40K Honda Odyssey competing with a Vette

Let me see, both the S4 and 330i have 4 doors and a similar amount of space. You have no argument, it doesn't matter whether or not one car is a special sports model, as long as the prices are close. Face it, the 3-series is wildly overpriced.

Now you try to turn the argument toward whether the 3er is overpriced....stick to one argument at a time.  I have provided many reasons why the M3 competes more with the S4 than the 330i does.

Hmm, let me see.  Both the A6 and the M5 have similar amounts of space, so that means they compete?

If the M5 is closer in price to A6 than the 545i is, then yes! This is stupid, just because a car is a high performance model doesn't mean it has to be compared to high performance models.

So are you comparing them solely on price?

Price, room, and door count.

One can make many "comparisons" based on those attributes, when really the car you mentioned doesnt compete at all.  In idea and execution, the M3 competes with the S4, for all the reasons I said in the above post.  If you compared them based on room and door count, then a 325i would compete with an RS4, etc.  That leaves only price to compare them, and thats simply not enough to overcome all the reasons why they dont compete with each other.

The A4 2.0T doesn't compete with the 330i either. Once again I will say that the M3's natural competitor from Audi is indeed the S4, but the 330i's closest competitor from Audi is the S4. The only point you have given is that the S4 is a special performance model and the 330i isn't, but that doesn't matter if they are close in price.  

[TBR]

An A4 2.0t comparably equipped to the S4 and 330i I used to prove my point earlier costs $38,995. Which means there is a whopping $8000 difference between the A4 2.0T and 330i compared to a $4500 difference between the S4 and 330i  

[BMWDave]

Let me put it this way:

You agree that the S4 and M3 compete.  Now, the 330i does not compete with an S4 because buyers view the 330i as a regular mainstream 3 Series, not as a high performance version of one.  Second, the Audi costs 10K more than the BMW at MSRP, and you;d have to fully option a BMW 330i to even get close price wise.  Thats not really called competing price wise.

[850CSi]

An A4 2.0t comparably equipped to the S4 and 330i I used to prove my point earlier costs $38,995. Which means there is a whopping $8000 difference between the A4 2.0T and 330i compared to a $4500 difference between the S4 and 330i

Only because the 330i used in the comparison had a lot of options.

[BMWDave]

An A4 2.0t comparably equipped to the S4 and 330i I used to prove my point earlier costs $38,995. Which means there is a whopping $8000 difference between the A4 2.0T and 330i compared to a $4500 difference between the S4 and 330i

I am not saying the comparison was totally legit, since I agree with Ifcar that a automatic version of both the 330i and 3.2 Audi would have been the better choice.  But I simply dont agree that a 330i competes with an S4.

[TBR]

Let me put it this way:

You agree that the S4 and M3 compete.  Now, the 330i does not compete with an S4 because buyers view the 330i as a regular mainstream 3 Series, not as a high performance version of one.  Second, the Audi costs 10K more than the BMW at MSRP, and you;d have to fully option a BMW 330i to even get close price wise.  Thats not really called competing price wise.

So they don't compete because the buyers view them differently? Yeah, that makes sense...