Whoops... :(

[sparkplug]

Speed doesn't kill.

No it doesn't. It's the impact.

[rohan]

yes it does.

No- it doesn't.? Are you really that hard-headed?? it's right in front of you-? IT'S RESULTS- hence the impact as you sparkplug puts it.? ?

[Raghavan]

Ok....

[rohan]

Ok....

Look at me- I won something!

[Eye of the Tiger]

Speeding doesn't kill people, guns kill people!  :P

[sparkplug]

Jumping out of an airplane won't kill you but the impact will, especially if you land on a bicycle with no seat, or get impaled by a skyscraper. But if you land on a really fat woman you'll be alright.

[rohan]

Speeding doesn't kill people, guns kill people!? :P

Ok- I'm going home now  --------->

[Eye of the Tiger]

Ok- I'm going home now? --------->

Drinking kills people!

[Soup DeVille]

We don't do hardly any enforcement on the highway, the state does.? Most of the complaints center around secondary roads and neighborhoods.? We catalog the complaints and assign officers accordingly.? We don't have quotas during normal operations.? When the state sponsors click it or ticket or OUI/seat belt enforcement they want citations (call it a quota).? If you want the OT you write tickets, if not don't work.? Whether you love the argument or not really doesn't matter much to me.? I'm not going to sugar coat anything for you.? You have a disdain toward enforcement and that's fine but often the argument on your side is overstated.?

If it makes you feel better I haven't written a citation in over a year.

I have no disdain towards normal and prudent traffic enforcement: its necessary, its required, and in most cases that's exactly what is out there. Some departments are an exception to the rule.

But let's call a spade a spade and not blow smoke up each other's asses either. Fines go towards the general fund. That money benefits the coffers of the state and the municipality that it goes to. This is pretty much undeniable. Overtime also benefits an officer's paycheck, does it not? Therefore, an officer getting paid time and a half to write tickets is directly benefitting from writing those tickets, is he not?

Every time I get in this discussion, I am accused of having some sort of disdain for law enforcement in general, but I assure you that this could not be further from the truth. You guys do a difficult and demanding job, and I sleep safer in my house because of it. Don't think that this is unappreciated.

But that doesn't mean that everything is flawless and innocent either.

[Soup DeVille]

municipality gets 1/3 of the FINES only -on most tickets the fines only make up somewher e around $30 or so bucks- ther rest are court costs and fees.? The other 2/3's of the fines go the the county sheriff department and the state police.? The court of the county the ticket was written gets those.? Most tickets only get the municipality around 10-15 bucks per citation- but the? bigger ones like DWLS or OUIL get them alot more.? A OUIL gets the municipality somewhere around $600 and then the department can ask for a judgement against the defedant for "eemergency response fees" up to $650 but generally they are given only about $200-350 for that.? Now if the municipality has their own traffic court and magistrate they can collect all of the money but they have to pay all the clerks and magistrates in that court so in the end it's usually more than they collect.

Let's see, I live in a state, a county, and a city.

Pocket A, Pocket B, Pocket C.

Now, if you can find a state without any cities or county in it: or any combination where any of these entities can exist without the others, then your argument has merit, otherwise all you're doing is that little sleight of hand trick I mentioned before.

Of course you have to pay the magistrates and the clerks! But courts, police departments, and all government entities do not exist as for-profit enterprises. They never have. If they did, I wouldn't have to pay taxes, would I?

But no matter how you slice it: money collected is added to the bottom line when fines are collected. There are so many communities in Michigan right now that are having trouble balancing their budgets and are already legally maxed out on their property tax millages that revenue from the collecting of fines is the only way they are keeping out of receivership.

[Soup DeVille]

Speeding doesn't kill people, guns kill people!? :P

Only if the bullet is going fast enough. :P

[Soup DeVille]

In Michigan they are not required anymore to be certified by Dr. Lee at MSU.? Now the manufacturers are the ones who certify them.? There is nothing to discover anymore- been that way for about 10 years.

There is still the serial unit of the gun and the verification of the validity of the manufacturer's certification.

Petty? Yes, I know.

[omicron]

Drinking kills people!

Slowly, and joyously.

[the nameless one]

I have no disdain towards normal and prudent traffic enforcement: its necessary, its required, and in most cases that's exactly what is out there. Some departments are an exception to the rule.

Very few, but thats what most people seem to focus on as being the  norm.

But let's call a spade a spade and not blow smoke up each other's asses either. Fines go towards the general fund. That money benefits the coffers of the state and the municipality that it goes to. This is pretty much undeniable. Overtime also benefits an officer's paycheck, does it not? Therefore, an officer getting paid time and a half to write tickets is directly benefitting from writing those tickets, is he not?

Of course he benefits, but its no different than any other OT they might have access to and benefit financially from; the point is though that if the agency and the government  is willing to support the costs associated with that ticketing/ enforcement  drive, thats because of the seriousness of the problem. You seem to focus on the dollar aspect of the ticket. If there was no penalty attached, what woule motivate the driver to avoid the ticket by following the law?

[the nameless one]

They seem to be pretty consistant throughout the US.

Honestly, think about. Police officers have to be on duty- whether they are actively ticketing people or not we still need a police force for more important matters. The labor cost of having police ticketing people is debatable, as are court costs. Even if there were no speed limits, we would still need courts and police forces.

How long does it take to write a ticket anyways? 10 minutes? 15? And the fine is going to be at least $70, more often $100 to $200. How is this not a profitable exercise?

It will cost the agency alone a hundred bucks or so in salary just to ensure the officer appears on OT for that ticket, if the trial happens to fall on a day when s/he isn't working. Add in the expenses of the court, the DAs office, etc and you've exceeded the revenue generated by that ticket. Of course the court will still be there; the police will still be there...the point is, you calculate the labor put into addressing that ticket by all levels, and the cost/ "loss" of the labor involved is exceeding the "gain" of the fine money.

Average stop time here barring a problem is 10 minutes.

[Catman]

I have no disdain towards normal and prudent traffic enforcement: its necessary, its required, and in most cases that's exactly what is out there. Some departments are an exception to the rule.

But let's call a spade a spade and not blow smoke up each other's asses either. Fines go towards the general fund. That money benefits the coffers of the state and the municipality that it goes to. This is pretty much undeniable. Overtime also benefits an officer's paycheck, does it not? Therefore, an officer getting paid time and a half to write tickets is directly benefitting from writing those tickets, is he not?

Every time I get in this discussion, I am accused of having some sort of disdain for law enforcement in general, but I assure you that this could not be further from the truth. You guys do a difficult and demanding job, and I sleep safer in my house because of it. Don't think that this is unappreciated.

But that doesn't mean that everything is flawless and innocent either.

The access to the coffers isn't as simplistic as you make it out to be.  We have an approved operating budget and we work within it.  Citation money doesn't factor into that budget at all.  Yes you can make an argument that we benefit from it somehow but there's always strings on every level, doesn't mean it's as defined as you make it out to be.  Recently the chief made a decision to remove all the radar units from the cars that allow speed measurement while moving.  So now, all the guys have are hand helds.  I told the chief it was a bad decision.  The reason was that it was costing too much to keep them repaired and calibrated.  You'd think that the citation money could be used to actually maintain the device that allows for the fine but for some reason it doesn't work that way.   I'm not blowing smaoke Soup, just telling you how we operate.  It's different everywhere so I can only comment on my dept.

[Raza]

Jesus Christ dude, I just spit my coffee all over my keyboard!

 

[Champ]

Speeding isn't a game- it's a dangerous thing and it 's results often kill people. Seeing you drive past him when he's doing the speed limit is evidence enough- And it's completely honorable to be honest.

Let's be realistic here - 60mph limit, on a 6 lane divided highway with large shoulders, entrance and exits further than a mile apart, and dedicated merge lanes to get up to speed, is a little too much "on the safe side"

[TurboDan]

Speeding isn't a game- it's a dangerous thing and it 's results often kill people.? Seeing you drive past him when he's doing the speed limit is evidence enough-? And it's completely honorable to be honest.

For every 10 mph more you travel the stopping distance quadrupples- or so the accident investigations god in his classes-
Dr. Daniel G. Lee, Ph.D., Director of Highway Traffic Safety Programs, Civil & Environmental Engineering,? Michigan State University.

Speed does not often kill people.  Speed is the primary factor in LESS than 10% of deadly crashes, according to every statistic out there.  Additionally, if traffic is flowing at 15MPH above the number on the limit sign (an arbitrary number set by politicians, mind you), and you're going exactly the limit, you're the one causing the danger on the road as you are acting as an obstruction to the flow of traffic.

And no, there's nothing honorable about simply mailing in a speeding ticket.  It's giving in to "the system" when you don't have to.

[GoCougs]

For every 10 mph more you travel the stopping distance quadrupples- or so the accident investigations god in his classes-
Dr. Daniel G. Lee, Ph.D., Director of Highway Traffic Safety Programs, Civil & Environmental Engineering,? Michigan State University.

If that is indeed Dr. Lee's assertion, he is wrong as wrong gets. I suspect though that that is not his assertion.

Even given a distance to react, there's no way the average individual, in the average car, together capable of braking from 60 - 0 in 200 ft will require 800 ft to brake from 70 - 0.

[Soup DeVille]

You seem to focus on the dollar aspect of the ticket. If there was no penalty attached, what woule motivate the driver to avoid the ticket by following the law?

Any good investigator will tell you: to find out who's behind it all, just follow the money.

If there were no fines involved, there's more than a fair chance that the speed limits would more realistically reflect the natural speed of the traffic flow

[Soup DeVille]

The access to the coffers isn't as simplistic as you make it out to be.? We have an approved operating budget and we work within it.? Citation money doesn't factor into that budget at all.? Yes you can make an argument that we benefit from it somehow but there's always strings on every level, doesn't mean it's as defined as you make it out to be.? Recently the chief made a decision to remove all the radar units from the cars that allow speed measurement while moving.? So now, all the guys have are hand helds.? I told the chief it was a bad decision.? The reason was that it was costing too much to keep them repaired and calibrated.? You'd think that the citation money could be used to actually maintain the device that allows for the fine but for some reason it doesn't work that way. ? I'm not blowing smaoke Soup, just telling you how we operate.? It's different everywhere so I can only comment on my dept.

Where did I ever assert that your department benefitted? No, the governments that receive the fines benefit. I've never stated anything else.

[the nameless one]

Any good investigator will tell you: to find out who's behind it all, just follow the money.

If there were no fines involved, there's more than a fair chance that the speed limits would more realistically reflect the natural speed of the traffic flow

If there were no fines involved to penalize bad driving, we would have no one following any sort of rules of the road. Anyone could drive any way they wanted and there would be no penalty attached. You really want to live in that kind of world?

[the nameless one]

Where did I ever assert that your department benefitted? No, the governments that receive the fines benefit. I've never stated anything else.

Once again, there is no "benefit" because the costs associated with seeing the ticket through to its conclusion outweighs any "benefit" to the general fund. The dollars might wind up in the general fund, but its hardly a cash cow as you claim.

[TheIntrepid]

Rag- having trouble understanding tonight?  It doesn't say speed kills- reread it!

Sorry dude, but you clearly said speed kills in that phrase.

[Tave]

If there were no fines involved to penalize bad driving, we would have no one following any sort of rules of the road. Anyone could drive any way they wanted and there would be no penalty attached. You really want to live in that kind of world?

Yeah, fines are the only way to penalize people.

You could, for example, just pull the license after a certain number of infractions.

[Soup DeVille]

Once again, there is no "benefit" because the costs associated with seeing the ticket through to its conclusion outweighs any "benefit" to the general fund. The dollars might wind up in the general fund, but its hardly a cash cow as you claim.

The costs only go up when a ticket is contested- which is what I said in the first place: Not enough people contest their tickets.

OT comes from the pre-approved PD budget. The fines add to the bottom line of the governmental budgets.

See, I can play the pocket game too!

[Soup DeVille]

Yeah, fines are the only way to penalize people.

You could just pull the license after a certain number of infractions.

Or immobilize the car: or donate all collected fines to a third party charity (not the FOP  ):  or require  community service.

[hounddog]

Let's see, I live in a state, a county, and a city.

Pocket A, Pocket B, Pocket C.

Now, if you can find a state without any cities or county in it: or any combination where any of these entities can exist without the others, then your argument has merit, otherwise all you're doing is that little sleight of hand trick I mentioned before.

Of course you have to pay the magistrates and the clerks! But courts, police departments, and all government entities do not exist as for-profit enterprises. They never have. If they did, I wouldn't have to pay taxes, would I?

But no matter how you slice it: money collected is added to the bottom line when fines are collected. There are so many communities in Michigan right now that are having trouble balancing their budgets and are already legally maxed out on their property tax millages that revenue from the collecting of fines is the only way they are keeping out of receivership.

Wow, you seem to know everything about everything even though you have no contact with or involvement in any of it.   

Your original argument equated that municipalities rake in large sums of cash from the citations they write, while Rohan accurately described how the money is divided up in Michigan.  Then you go on to say that even though the municipality does not receive much of that money it is "slight of hand" and it is all the same.  You can not have it both ways, having them writing tickets and not getting much in return, but still having it them greatly benefiting from it.  Rohan was right, the issuing municipality does not receive much in the way of monetary gains when citations are issued.  Period. 

What he forgot to lay out was that in Michigan when the county or state write tickets the local municipality the in which the ticket was written receives nothing, and the revenues from the fines do not go back into the police budget rather they go into the government bodies general fund as per state law.  From there, most municipalities spend that money directly on basic needs for their police; i.e. uniforms, training, etc.  Money that our worthless democrat ultra-liberal Canadian governor has cut from their budgets.  Yes, there are some benefits to receiving back monies from citations, however, after all the court time,  mileage, and witness fees paid out there is usually a short fall.  In the end, most departments in Michigan actually lose money when their officers are busy writing tickets.  But remember, most departments in Michigan are small departments with less than 20 officers.  In example, my neighbor who passed this winter owned a home in Crystal Township which is in Montcalm county.  The police department there write lots of tickets, yet they only take in about $5,000 per year in revenues from said citations while their budget is north of about $150,000.  Where is the huge benefit you claim?

In the last place I worked, a township in the middle of Michigan, we received annually about $54,000 in ticket revenues which included the large sums from OUIL and DWLS and those Emergency Response Fees Randy noted.  Our operating budget was about $850,000.  Again, where is this huge benefit?  That amount did not even cover the cost of one full time officer which was in the area of $75,000.

As with most of your other arguments regarding law enforcement, you are all wet.

[hounddog]

I have no disdain towards normal and prudent traffic enforcement: its necessary, its required, and in most cases that's exactly what is out there. Some departments are an exception to the rule.

But let me guess, you have personally never received a citation you deserved, right? 

But let's call a spade a spade and not blow smoke up each other's asses either. Fines go towards the general fund. That money benefits the coffers of the state and the municipality that it goes to. This is pretty much undeniable. Overtime also benefits an officer's paycheck, does it not? Therefore, an officer getting paid time and a half to write tickets is directly benefitting from writing those tickets, is he not?

How, exactly, will an officer receiving overtime help the department he is working for if those fines he is ultimately manufacturing are going directly into his paycheck?

Every time I get in this discussion, I am accused of having some sort of disdain for law enforcement in general, but I assure you that this could not be further from the truth. You guys do a difficult and demanding job, and I sleep safer in my house because of it. Don't think that this is unappreciated.

Good to hear, and nice that you can spell it out in public.  As for being accused, people can only surmise from what they read.

But that doesn't mean that everything is flawless and innocent either.

Does not mean that it is inherently flawed or evil, either.