Quote from: 565 on December 03, 2023, 06:30:22 PMTesla will adjust prices based on demand. 

Other car manufacturers do it through their dealers with large discounts.  BMW famously does it through heavily subsidized leases.

Tesla sells direct and has to do it with very public price cuts or incentives.

Thus Tesla is one of the few car companies that has actually reduced prices over the years. 

A Tesla model S plaid now costs less (90k) than the performance trim did when it was introduced in 2012 (106k).  That's not even accounting for inflation. The original S performance had something like 414hp and 265 milez of range and the plaid has 1020hp and nearly 400 miles of range. 

The Model X also costs less, is far more powerful and has more range than when it was introduced.  Similar story for the 3 and Y when prices were cut by 10 to 15k.

On the Tesla forums they can pretty much predict when another price cut is coming by looking at the number of in inventory units.

Tesla has priced the cybertruck at a high price because it thinks it has the demand and they know supply will be low due to manufacturing challenges.  When/If production picks up and inventory piles up, the price cuts will come.

ok, but based on Elon's public statements:

- The Ford Lightning is a good vehicle, just somewhat expensive, especially given the high interest rates these days for any kind of loan

- We dug our own grave with the Cybertruck

I have a feeling he's not trying to price the Cybertruck as high as it currently is because of the demand for it but instead he underestimated how expensive the truck would be to make and how difficult it would be to scale up production of it given the materials used. 

You are right though that if he can scale up production because of the continuous demand, he'll probably be able to drop the price a little bit.

I don't know what the long term demand will be for an 80 thousand dollar truck, which can't do well many pickup truck things, no matter how cool it is.  100 thousand vehicles a year, perhaps some sort of benchmark, is a lot. 

Steer by wire.  A system OEMs have been playing with for awhile and require multiple back ups and tons of testing.

Tesla just throwing it out there.  A company with deep experience in redundant systems and validation.  Surely this will go well.

Again: Tesla's competitive edge is risk tolerance.  And it's not good for the consumer or anyone else on the road.

It's clearly rocket science...

Quote from: MrH on December 04, 2023, 08:17:02 AMSteer by wire.  A system OEMs have been playing with for awhile and require multiple back ups and tons of testing.

Tesla just throwing it out there.  A company with deep experience in redundant systems and validation.  Surely this will go well.

Again: Tesla's competitive edge is risk tolerance.  And it's not good for the consumer or anyone else on the road.

WtP and Tesla fanbois love the drama though, without which Tesla wouldn't be 10% of what it is today.

Xxx-by-wire has been in effective use (esp. aerospace) for 50+ years. Tesla may have screwed it up, but unlike the hoax of autonomous driving, xxx-by-wire is proven engineering (as is electric motors and power electronics), meaning it's relatively easy to do.

Quote from: MrH on December 04, 2023, 08:17:02 AMSteer by wire.  A system OEMs have been playing with for awhile and require multiple back ups and tons of testing.

Tesla just throwing it out there.  A company with deep experience in redundant systems and validation.  Surely this will go well.

Again: Tesla's competitive edge is risk tolerance.  And it's not good for the consumer or anyone else on the road.

Apparently when asked about this by people doing the factory tour* the guy there said there's the primary system, a redundant system, and a third backup on top of that allows it to operate for a short while without the 48V system.

*edit

Quote from: Morris Minor on December 04, 2023, 10:55:32 AMApparently when asked about this by people doing the factory the guy there said there's the primary system, a redundant system, and a third backup on top of that allows it to operate for a short while without the 48V system.

Yes, yes.  I'm sure this company that comically misses on so many basic things has it totally under control.

Quote from: Morris Minor on December 04, 2023, 10:55:32 AMApparently when asked about this by people doing the factory the guy there said there's the primary system, a redundant system, and a third backup on top of that allows it to operate for a short while without the 48V system.

Which guy? I'm extremely skeptical about that last claim. It implies an extremely large capacitor or yet another 48V battery acting as a buffer - and a pretty large battery at that, to deal with the big loads.

Quote from: Laconian on December 04, 2023, 02:05:06 PMWhich guy? I'm extremely skeptical about that last claim. It implies an extremely large capacitor or yet another 48V battery acting as a buffer - and a pretty large battery at that, to deal with the big loads.

Honestly I don't know - someone in the factory doing show & tell. They gave tours of the production line to people who'd been invited to the  (unrehearsed & unchoreographed) delivery event. But yes, if true, it would have to be super beefy - there are two 5 HP actuators to deal with.

Tours of the production line...not actually running or ready to run in any way.

The Greatest Show on Earth ™ !

The comment at the bottom.

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Saw a clip that doors stop rifle rounds if they're at 45deg angle, but not as much straight perpendicular..

I'm not overly familiar with what is going on WRT the Cybertruck, but nearly every negative remark I've herd in the past few weeks could be replaced with "Model 3" or "Model S" going back a decade and the conversation would be virtually unchanged.  That goes for here, Reddit, other car forums, social media, etc.

Quote from: giant_mtb on December 04, 2023, 03:14:33 PMThe comment at the bottom.

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The same argument could be applied to any new car purchase.

Quote from: Submariner2 on December 04, 2023, 05:00:13 PMI'm not overly familiar with what is going on WRT the Cybertruck, but nearly every negative remark I've herd in the past few weeks could be replaced with "Model 3" or "Model S" going back a decade and the conversation would be virtually unchanged.  That goes for here, Reddit, other car forums, social media, etc.

This one's a positive take: I wouldn't mind seeing the "How to Design a 48V Vehicle" pdf.

(production style is very Top Gear.)

I found out that Audi's been running 48V since 2017. Their mild hybrids use a primary system running at 48V with DC-DC converters for the legacy electronics. 48V is not uncommon on new boats, particularly sailboats with hybrid diesels. Tally Ho on YouTube uses it.

Personally I would be pretty surprised if the Cybertruck was pure 48V from bow to stern. There are so many electric bits and bobs that are shared with higher volume cars like the Model 3 and Model Y - door latches, window motors, seat heaters, etc. It would frontload a ton of unnecessary costs onto the CT. I'm guessing they also have a DC-DC converter just like the Audi.

Wouldn't it be nice if actual journalists got a chance to review the CT? By being considered "released" isn't it fair game for getting some actual answers?

Quote from: Submariner2 on December 04, 2023, 05:00:13 PMI'm not overly familiar with what is going on WRT the Cybertruck, but nearly every negative remark I've herd in the past few weeks could be replaced with "Model 3" or "Model S" going back a decade and the conversation would be virtually unchanged.  That goes for here, Reddit, other car forums, social media, etc.

In what ways is it similar? My recollection of the Model S launch and reaction must be very different from yours.

Quote from: Laconian on December 05, 2023, 11:09:19 AMI found out that Audi's been running 48V since 2017. Their mild hybrids use a primary system running at 48V with DC-DC converters for the legacy electronics. 48V is not uncommon on new boats, particularly sailboats with hybrid diesels. Tally Ho on YouTube uses it.

Personally I would be pretty surprised if the Cybertruck was pure 48V from bow to stern. There are so many electric bits and bobs that are shared with higher volume cars like the Model 3 and Model Y - door latches, window motors, seat heaters, etc. It would frontload a ton of unnecessary costs onto the CT. I'm guessing they also have a DC-DC converter just like the Audi.

Wouldn't it be nice if actual journalists got a chance to review the CT? By being considered "released" isn't it fair game for getting some actual answers?

There are 10, hand built examples that were "delivered" to employees under strict NDAs.  This isn't a production vehicle still.  Who knows how long until it will be.  Regardless, I'm sure we'll hear the sad song from Elon about "production hell" and how hard it is to start up a line for a new model, despite every other OEM doing it multiple times a year, every year, ad infinitum.

Yes, I'm aware. I don't know why the press isn't doing a better job of calling a spade a spade.

Kevin (2o6) has been raging to me over IM about how feeble and tame automotive journalists are now. Writers are too cowed by the need to maintain "access" to industry stories to actually write anything critical anymore. He was  physically disgusted by Camissa's commercial for the Cybertruck and unsubscribed in a huff.

Camissa was actually fairly critical of Tesla during his Lucid review on the Engineering Explained channel

Quote from: Laconian on December 05, 2023, 11:40:31 AMYes, I'm aware. I don't know why the press isn't doing a better job of calling a spade a spade.

Kevin (2o6) has been raging to me over IM about how feeble and tame automotive journalists are now. Writers are too cowed by the need to maintain "access" to industry stories to actually write anything critical anymore. He was  physically disgusted by Camissa's commercial for the Cybertruck and unsubscribed in a huff.

Everyone's a journalist now such that automakers have the power. If you don't kowtow, there's a near endless pool of those that will. However, if you do kowtow, Big Things Are Coming. Look at the hit job Tesla did on that Munro goofball. You'd have to look far and wide to find a bigger shill these days - it's cringe - but it's worked out well for his career, if one can call it that.

2o6 did some sleuthing...

https://insideevs.com/news/699189/tesla-cybertruck-repair-insurance/

The problem with fingerprints alone is hilarious. Go stick your SS fridge out in the yard and see how good it looks after a week.

...why wouldn't they just clearcoat the SS to avoid such issues?

Quote from: Laconian on December 05, 2023, 04:58:55 PM2o6 did some sleuthing...

https://insideevs.com/news/699189/tesla-cybertruck-repair-insurance/

I'm sorry but this makes zero sense.  You can slam the door literally with a sledgehammer and not get damage.  There is going to be little in the way of a use case for paintless dent repair.

Repairs are going to be from significant incidents which requires panel replacement just like a normal vehicle.  The only significant difference will be you have to do entire panels as you can't cut/weld, which is no different than carbon fiber body panels. 

It's an expensive vehicle - expensive vehicles are expensive to repair.  A parking lot speed impact to the front end of a Giulia QV starts at $15-20k thanks to all the carbon fiber parts.  The hood alone is $7K.

A sledgehammer is not a car door, I bet the panel can still get door dents. Normally door dents are under 1" diameter, whereas a sledgehammer is what, 3-4" diameter?

Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 05, 2023, 08:03:12 PMA sledgehammer is not a car door, I bet the panel can still get door dents. Normally door dents are under 1" diameter, whereas a sledgehammer is what, 3-4" diameter?

Honestly given how much damage 00 Buckshot and 9mm did to the panel at like 1000+FPS, I'd be shocked if the Cybertruck would pick up door dings from careless drivers.

The SS tough body is one of the main reasons I'm on the list for one.  Honestly it feels like automotive paint and clearcoat is the most fragile substance known to man.  There is an entire industry devoted to detailing cars, focused around removal and covering of fine damage.

I think I've spent an enormous amount of time, money and worry on door dings, rock chips, scratches, and swirls.

I've spent countless weekends polishing, waxing, detailing the Z06.  I always park a million miles away to avoid dings. Sometimes if I can't find a parking spot that doesn't allow me to park away from door's reach from another car, I just say forget it and go somewhere else. I always go to Costco at odd hours to avoid a full parking lot.

Now that I got a kid, I just can't blow an entire weekend on detailing anymore, so I spent the money on full PPF on both the Blackwing and the X3M, and I don't worry about swirls or minor chips, but the larger impacts from rocks still tear the film and obviously door dings can still happen.

One time a hail storm hit Boston and did 9000 dollars of damage to the G37 that the insurance company reluctantly covered.  Now everytime there is a severe thunderstorm I get worried if something like that is going to happen again.

If the Cybertruck ever comes I'm going to look forward to parking it whereever, never worrying about swirls, not thinking twice when there is a severe thunderstorm warning and just pressure washing it periodically.

I guess if I just didn't care about the exterior that would solve my issue, but seeing how big automotive detailing is as an industry, I'm not the only one with this disease.

Some peope see videos like this and think that's silly but honeslty demonstrations like this sell this truck for me.

https://youtube.com/shorts/spKfaqDP-gA?si=9wO4ttWZiSzqAW2x

https://youtube.com/shorts/Bq4uKZb7VM8?si=m3KL0A7HdaHYA_mv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-wz50yAHo

Quote from: Laconian on December 05, 2023, 11:40:31 AMYes, I'm aware. I don't know why the press isn't doing a better job of calling a spade a spade.

Kevin (2o6) has been raging to me over IM about how feeble and tame automotive journalists are now. Writers are too cowed by the need to maintain "access" to industry stories to actually write anything critical anymore. He was  physically disgusted by Camissa's commercial for the Cybertruck and unsubscribed in a huff.

Good.  Camissa's commercial also turned me off from the guy completely.  I'm done with his stuff.

Quote from: r0tor on December 05, 2023, 06:59:20 PMI'm sorry but this makes zero sense.  You can slam the door literally with a sledgehammer and not get damage.  There is going to be little in the way of a use case for paintless dent repair.

Repairs are going to be from significant incidents which requires panel replacement just like a normal vehicle.  The only significant difference will be you have to do entire panels as you can't cut/weld, which is no different than carbon fiber body panels. 

It's an expensive vehicle - expensive vehicles are expensive to repair.  A parking lot speed impact to the front end of a Giulia QV starts at $15-20k thanks to all the carbon fiber parts.  The hood alone is $7K.

It wasn't a sledgehammer.  It was a dead blow hammer.  Literally designed to minimize damage.

You just can't help falling for the fraud over and over and over.

Quote from: 565 on December 06, 2023, 07:29:13 AMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-wz50yAHo

This just in: car with nearly 200hp less loses in drag race!

Quote from: giant_mtb on December 06, 2023, 07:40:41 AMThis just in: car with nearly 200hp less loses in drag race!

Urus has better power to weight than the Cybertruck.

If you want to see the Cybertruck beat a vehicle that has 150 more HP, look here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1v0FNR3-Xc