There are actually quite a few options :rastaman:
W220 S600! (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=265763128&dealer_id=29680869&car_year=2001&rdm=1252671331068&num_records=25&systime=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=12+Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=11216&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=15000&cardist=13&standard=false)
SL600 with the 390HP motor (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=267353911&dealer_id=1388892&car_year=1997&rdm=1252671331068&num_records=25&systime=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=12+Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=11216&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=15000&cardist=213&standard=false)
850Ci. (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=262568022&dealer_id=603071&car_year=1993&rdm=1252671331068&num_records=25&systime=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=12+Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=11216&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=15000&cardist=159&standard=false)
88 XJS, 33K miles. Prob barely runs (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=265376782&dealer_id=64382683&car_year=1988&rdm=1252671331068&num_records=25&systime=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=12+Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=11216&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=15000&cardist=208&standard=false)
Would u take the risk??? 1 tune up would prob cost a quarter of the car's value :lol:
Also the earlier XJ12 and of course, the 750iL in E32 and E38 form, both of which can be had rather cheap.
750iL or 850Ci would be my personal preferences.
I would never spend the money on an old 12 cylinder car.
850Ci, definitely (with a stick).
Anything else, eh.
I'll take that sexy black Jag.
I couldn't find an Aston Martin Rapide on Autotrader, so this will have to do (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=267066990&dealer_id=68161&car_year=2000&rdm=1252692110159&model=INTRE&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&make=DODGE&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar::ispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=11216&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=15000&cardist=176&standard=false)
Quote from: HEMI666 on September 11, 2009, 11:54:46 AM
I would never spend the money on an old 12 cylinder car.
yeah, who'd want to own or drive one of these:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/Bukviel/Monument/DSC07713.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/Bukviel/Monument/DSC07789.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/Bukviel/Monument/DSC07791.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/Bukviel/Monument/DSC07779.jpg)
The 750s added so many cool little touches that were not available on the 740s, as well as having a bunch of options available that were just neat, like that built in cooler. But the dash was not soft touch plastic, but actual leather.
I alsao liked driving the earlier E32 750. Powerful cars that are way down in price these days...
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6833/dsc01072nm2.jpg)
(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5686/fdfvdffdtm8.jpg)
Would definitely take on of those.
And I still love the XJ12C from the '70s...
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/40328/3343900d.jpg)
Quote from: ChrisV on September 11, 2009, 12:28:57 PM
yeah, who'd want to own or drive one of these:
Sure I would, but I doubt that thing is affordable for someone on a tight budget which is what this thread is about.
I understand the allure of the badge, but objectively speaking I'd think twice about it - your average V6 CamCord of today would be as good or better an all around performer, would be far cheaper to repair and maintain, and be infinitely more reliable.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 11, 2009, 06:20:38 AM
There are actually quite a few options :rastaman:
88 XJS, 33K miles. Prob barely runs (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=265376782&dealer_id=64382683&car_year=1988&rdm=1252671331068&num_records=25&systime=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=12+Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=11216&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=15000&cardist=208&standard=false)
I don't know. If the mileage is correct the car has probably been pretty well pampered. From what you can tell from the pictures it doesn't look like it's been thrashed. Make sure all the fuel hoses are new and the clamps are OK (fuel leaks and resulting engine fires are not uncommon) and you are probably good to go. V12 jaguars were thirsty though, even the HE models used a lot of gas by today's standards.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 01:03:20 PM
I understand the allure of the badge, but objectively speaking I'd think twice about it - your average V6 CamCord of today would be as good or better an all around performer, would be far cheaper to repair and maintain, and be infinitely more reliable.
Probably correct but if one is considering a car like those shown here they are undoubtably looking for more of a driving experience than a Camry could ever hope to provide.
Quote from: Byteme on September 11, 2009, 01:03:31 PM
I don't know. If the mileage is correct the car has probably been pretty well pampered. From what you can tell from the pictures it doesn't look like it's been thrashed. Make sure all the fuel hoses are new and the clamps are OK (fuel leaks and resulting engine fires are not uncommon) and you are probably good to go. V12 jaguars were thirsty though, even the HE models used a lot of gas by today's standards.
Oh yes, when shopping for a V12 car, fuel economy is always one of my top priorities. :lol:
$1200 for a V12 :wub:
http://maine.craigslist.org/cto/1367131794.html
As tempting as it is, I'd probably end up wussing out and getting my 12-cylinder fix from a Mustang GT + Toyota Corolla :mask:
Or Nissan 350Z + Cadillac CTS. The possibilities are endless...
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 01:03:20 PM
I understand the allure of the badge, but objectively speaking I'd think twice about it - your average V6 CamCord of today would be as good or better an all around performer, would be far cheaper to repair and maintain, and be infinitely more reliable.
Not all purchases can be rationalized coldly on a spreadsheet.
Quote from: NACar on September 11, 2009, 01:06:46 PM
Oh yes, when shopping for a V12 car, fuel economy is always one of my top priorities. :lol:
11 city 16 hwy. You gotta pay to play. ;)
Quote from: Raza link=topic=19878.msg1157244#msg1157244 date=1252696754
Not all purchases can be rationalized coldly on a spreadsheet.
Especially automobiles
Quote from: Byteme on September 11, 2009, 01:19:32 PM
11 city 16 hwy. You gotta pay to play. ;)
Numbers are irrelevant, unless you are counting cylinders.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=19878.msg1157244#msg1157244 date=1252696754
Not all purchases can be rationalized coldly on a spreadsheet.
Can't say I haven't tried :mask:
According to a MS Excel spreadsheet I pasted Edmunds true-cost-of-ownership data into, I should've bought a Maxima.
Quote from: ChrisV on September 11, 2009, 12:28:57 PM
yeah, who'd want to own or drive one of these:
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/Bukviel/Monument/DSC07713.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/Bukviel/Monument/DSC07789.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/Bukviel/Monument/DSC07791.jpg)
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm73/Bukviel/Monument/DSC07779.jpg)
The 750s added so many cool little touches that were not available on the 740s, as well as having a bunch of options available that were just neat, like that built in cooler. But the dash was not soft touch plastic, but actual leather.
I alsao liked driving the earlier E32 750. Powerful cars that are way down in price these days...
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6833/dsc01072nm2.jpg)
(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5686/fdfvdffdtm8.jpg)
Would definitely take on of those.
And I still love the XJ12C from the '70s...
(http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/40328/3343900d.jpg)
Yeah...because those 750's were common...
Quote from: HEMI666 on September 11, 2009, 12:40:58 PM
Sure I would, but I doubt that thing is affordable for someone on a tight budget which is what this thread is about.
he said "reasonable budget" not "tight budget." he even listed and 850i and a Mercedes S600 both around $14-15k. The ones I listed can be had less than that, easily.
(http://images.autotrader.com/images/2009/6/25/264/291/12094652798.264291230.IM1.MAIN.565x421_A.562x421.jpg)
E32 750iL, $3950. Less miles than my car...
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=264291230&dealer_id=64300157&car_year=1992&rdm=1252699810753&model=750IL&num_records=25&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1988&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=n&make=BMW&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=21208&advanced=&end_year=1994&doors=&transmission=&max_price=&cardist=2421&standard=false&rdpage=thumb
Some newer ones, all under $10k:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?num_records=25&search_lang=en&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&search_type=both&distance=0&address=21208&marketZipError=false&style_flag=1&make=BMW&model=750IL&make2=&start_year=1988&end_year=2001&min_price=0&max_price=10000&seller_type=b&transmission=&engine=&drive=&doors=&fuel=&max_mileage=&color=&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&keywords_display=&sort_type=priceDESC&body_code=0&certified=&advanced=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&showZipError=n&default_sort=priceDESC&awsp=false&systime=&rdm=1252700123545
Quote from: Submariner on September 11, 2009, 01:33:39 PM
Yeah...because those 750's were common...
I just listed 42 of them under $10k. They are all over. Many of my fellow 7 series club owners are 750 owners.
I'd take any of those as a daily driver.
Quote from: Byteme on September 11, 2009, 01:05:42 PM
Probably correct but if one is considering a car like those shown here they are undoubtably looking for more of a driving experience than a Camry could ever hope to provide.
Perhaps the 850CSi w/MT, but the others? They're AT-equipped sedans that on their best days probably couldn't run with a newer V6 Accord or V6 Camry of the same value.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=19878.msg1157244#msg1157244 date=1252696754
Not all purchases can be rationalized coldly on a spreadsheet.
When your purchase can't keep pace with a CamCord, will cost a mint to fix and maintain and be a reliability nightmare, yes, I think such a thing can be.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 02:56:52 PM
Perhaps the 850CSi w/MT, but the others? They're AT-equipped sedans that on their best days probably couldn't run with a newer V6 Accord or V6 Camry of the same value.
When your purchase can't keep pace with a CamCord, and will cost a mint to fix and maintain and be a reliability nightmare, yes, I think such a thing can be.
You need to try harder at sucking.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 02:56:52 PM
Perhaps the 850CSi w/MT, but the others? They're AT-equipped sedans that on their best days probably couldn't run with a newer V6 Accord or V6 Camry of the same value.
When your purchase can't keep pace with a CamCord, will cost a mint to fix and maintain and be a reliability nightmare, yes, I think such a thing can be.
I guess I'll have to sell the MG and buy a Camry, then...
Quote from: Psilos on September 11, 2009, 03:03:16 PM
I guess I'll have to sell the MG and buy a Camry, then...
Oooo... I'll give you $1000 for it! And a Swift! :wub:
Quote from: NACar on September 11, 2009, 03:05:00 PM
Oooo... I'll give you $1000 for it! And a Swift! :wub:
For you, $3000. :lol:
When I do sell it, I'm gonna start way high (like, $4000), and bring it down until I get some hits. I expect $3200 or so.
Quote from: Psilos on September 11, 2009, 03:06:51 PM
For you, $3000. :lol:
When I do sell it, I'm gonna start way high (like, $4000), and bring it down until I get some hits. I expect $3200 or so.
Wow thanks :rolleyes:
Do us all a favoure and put a V8 in it.
Quote from: NACar on September 11, 2009, 03:08:15 PM
Wow thanks :rolleyes:
Do us all a favoure and put a V8 in it.
Hey, man, I've put close to $2000 since I got it for $2000, and I wanna buy a Miata, and I ain't rich, and you'd just get bored and sell it in a month anyway. ;) :lol:
V8 is too much time/effort.
On a budget? I'd buy two v6 modern day cars.
But what you're talking about? BMW 8
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 02:56:52 PM
Perhaps the 850CSi w/MT, but the others? They're AT-equipped sedans that on their best days probably couldn't run with a newer V6 Accord or V6 Camry of the same value.
Then you haven't driven any of them. Even my lowly V8 old sedan will hand an Accord or Camry its ass on a fun road, and FEEL better doing it. There's something about the steering feel of a real performance sedan, designed as such by folks who specialize in it, that cannot be matched by a plebian FWD people hauler.
QuoteWhen your purchase can't keep pace with a CamCord, will cost a mint to fix and maintain and be a reliability nightmare, yes, I think such a thing can be.
There are a million and one older cars I'd rather have, and get more enjoyment out of, than any modern CamCord,
even if they cost more.. It's not all about simply getting from point A to point B with the AC running.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 02:56:52 PM
Perhaps the 850CSi w/MT, but the others? They're AT-equipped sedans that on their best days probably couldn't run with a newer V6 Accord or V6 Camry of the same value.
When your purchase can't keep pace with a CamCord, will cost a mint to fix and maintain and be a reliability nightmare, yes, I think such a thing can be.
Well, you're wrong. Too bad.
Quote from: ChrisV on September 11, 2009, 04:02:04 PM
There are a million and one older cars I'd rather have, and get more enjoyment out of, than any modern CamCord, even if they cost more.. It's not all about simply getting from point A to point B with the AC running.
No, it is. All driving should be done in a straightline as well. It should be joyless and efficient.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=19878.msg1157377#msg1157377 date=1252706688
No, it is. All driving should be done in a straightline as well. It should be joyless and efficient.
I better get a muscle car then.
Quote from: Onslaught on September 11, 2009, 04:26:12 PM
I better get a muscle car then.
A V6 CamCord would be just as fast, but more reliable, efficient, cheaper, comfortable, sensible, boring and make you want to chop your balls off and troll car forums about how awesome V6 CamCords are.
Poor Cougs is just bitter because he drives a CamCord.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 02:56:52 PM
Perhaps the 850CSi w/MT, but the others? They're AT-equipped sedans that on their best days probably couldn't run with a newer V6 Accord or V6 Camry of the same value.
When your purchase can't keep pace with a CamCord, will cost a mint to fix and maintain and be a reliability nightmare, yes, I think such a thing can be.
So is an E30 M3 is a worse car than an Accord V6 because the Accord is faster in a straight line and more comfortable as a daily driver? Cmon bro.
I hope you don't think I'm looking at these as my next car. It's just a thread.
Cougs has owned some boss rides, if I remember correctly. I think he's speaking more to the idea of owning V12 exotics on a "budget."
How is it you guys get yourselves so vested in diversion?
Tave, for like the 127th time, has shown yet again to be the smartest guy in the thread.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 07:20:29 PM
How is it you guys get yourselves so vested in diversion?
Tave, for like the 127th time, has shown yet again to be the smartest guy in the thread.
Yes, ownership experience and subjective feel are trumped by shitty Japanese boxes' V6 acceleration.
Why are you even on a car forum if you don't like cars?
Quote from: Tave on September 11, 2009, 06:41:07 PM
Cougs has owned some boss rides
Is this true, Cougs?
Please give us more information. :rockon:
Quote from: CALL_911 on September 11, 2009, 07:24:22 PM
Is this true, Cougs?
Please give us more information. :rockon:
I think Tave was a bit generous in calling them "boss" but they were cool enough to me.
But here are my top 3:
1972 Dodge Demon. Mildly built 360 V8, 727 TF A/T and 3.23 Sure Grip (limited slip) differential. I bought this restored and didn't do a dang thing to it but race it and waste a set of rear tires:
(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/5522/demonside.png) (http://img34.imageshack.us/i/demonside.png/)
1979 Chevy Camaro. I did plenty of work on this, including a moderately modified 350 and Turbo 400 AT w/high stall converter:
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3592/camaro2w.jpg) (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/camaro2w.jpg/)
1982 Dodge Ramcharger. I did plenty of work on this, including a moderately modified 318 with fuel injected heads. I can't find a good picture, but it was lifted a bit with 33" mudders on alloys:
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2617/ramcharger.jpg) (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/ramcharger.jpg/)
I find it moderately ironic the charge I don't like cars. I've got more experience owning, driving and modifying/working on them than most on here.
A reasonable Dodge Demon, but two other nutless vehicles that could barely take on the Swift. I see a guy who was just waiting for his CamCord to be built so he could be happy forever and never have to like real cars again.
No, the point being that college, career, girl friend(s), other hobbies, etc., make owning those types of vehicles a real chore. Though the Demon and Camaro were fairly quick (I estimate low 14 sec 1/4 mile) they were absolutely atrocious in braking, handling, reliability, safety, MPG, etc. They were fun, but it is highly unlikely I'll ever own one again, as I've alluded to previously, an Accord V6 Coupe is a vastly superior vehicle in all objective regards, even if it doesn't have a V8 rumble or legendary nameplate.
To carry the tit-for-tat analogy to the thread, the quasi ego boost of driving a has-been luxury sedan means a lot to some. I don't discount that; my point is that I call it out for what it is - swapping that ego boost for a lesser performing and all-around inferior vehicle. Further, you'll not ever convince me that driving a 15 year old 4,300 lb land yacht such as a 740i or S500 is objectively more pleasurable than driving an '08 Accord V6 sedan. Further, it is easily objectively proven that the 740i/S500 will be the lesser performing vehicle in all regards.
(Wow, guys - this call-out didn't exactly go your way, did it?)
You don't have to be convinced. I don't care anymore. If you don't like cars, you don't like cars. :huh:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 08:13:32 PM
No, the point being that college, career, girl friend(s), other hobbies, etc., make owning those types of vehicles a real chore. Though the Demon and Camaro were fairly quick (I estimate low 14 sec 1/4 mile) they were absolutely atrocious in braking, handling, reliability, safety, MPG, etc. They were fun, but it is highly unlikely I'll ever own one again, as I've alluded to previously, an Accord V6 Coupe is a vastly superior vehicle in all objective regards, even if it doesn't have a V8 rumble or legendary nameplate.
To carry the tit-for-tat analogy to the thread, the quasi ego boost of driving a has-been luxury sedan means a lot to some. I don't discount that; my point is that I call it out for what it is - swapping that ego boost for a lesser performing and all-around inferior vehicle. Further, you'll not ever convince me that driving a 15 year old 4,300 lb land yacht such as a 740i or S500 is objectively more pleasurable than driving an '08 Accord V6 sedan. Further, it is easily objectively proven that the 740i/S500 will be the lesser performing vehicle in all regards.
(Wow, guys - this call-out didn't exactly go your way, did it?)
:wtf:
Sorry, cougs, I've driven exotics on the track, I've driven homebuilt race cars on the track, both cheap ass wannabe drag cars like yours and sports cars. Saying "ooh, I built a cheap old Camaro, and now drive an Accord, so I know how a top of the line BMW sport sedan drives" is fucking bullshit of the highest order. You really don't know shit. And I say that in the nicest possible way.
Lesser performing is ONLY in a fucking straight line and even then it's marginal at best. The relentless pull that a V12 car gives under acceleration cannot be matched by some Accord or Camry with a 4 or V6, no matter HOW much hp it makes. And the driving dynamics of a RWD sedan with suspension tuned specifically for handling is WORLDS different than a fucking every-man FWD shitbox.
Fuck off and get the fuck out of these threads until you actually have a goddamn clue.
Quote from: ChrisV on September 11, 2009, 08:32:57 PM
Fuck off and get the fuck out of these threads until you actually have a goddamn clue.
Another contender for
Great Automotive Quotes In History. :lol: :rockon:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 08:13:32 PM
Further, you'll not ever convince me that driving a 15 year old 4,300 lb land yacht such as a 740i or S500 is objectively more pleasurable than driving an '08 Accord V6 sedan.
Hell, you'll never convince me that driving an '08 Accord V6 is "objectively" better than driving a 20-years-older 560SEL, let alone one from earlier this decade.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 08:13:32 PM
Further, you'll not ever convince me that driving a 15 year old 4,300 lb land yacht such as a 740i or S500 is objectively more pleasurable than driving an '08 Accord V6 sedan.
You really don't know a thing about vehicle dynamics, steering feel, feedback, etc, do you? Apparently your Duster was a little short on educational experience.
But yeah, after building an old Duster, old Camaro, and old Dodge pickup truck, I'd guess you thought an Accord was the greatest fucking car on earth, the newer the better.
You know, I'm starting to not feel so angry towards you, merely sorry for you that your life is so fucking pathetic (measuring everything by a few "objective numbers" like net worth instead of actually feeling anything).
You don't have much real experience. You don't have much knowledge, and all you have are some numbers to comfort you. You are the epitome of "made of fail."
Don't be so harsh on old Cougsy. He's an engineer, after all. It's no wonder he's such an Objectivist whore.
Quote from: Psilos on September 11, 2009, 09:10:52 PM
Don't be so harsh on old Cougsy. He's an engineer, after all. It's no wonder he's such an Objectivist whore.
Most engineers I know are really into cars.
His posts read more like an accountant's, honestly. :devil:
Quote from: Raza on September 11, 2009, 09:14:39 PM
Most engineers I know are really into cars.
His posts read more like an accountant's, honestly. :devil:
Haha, same basic thing. :devil: :lol:
Quote from: Raza link=topic=19878.msg1157652#msg1157652 date=1252725279
Most engineers I know are really into cars.
Most engineers I know are into full-size trucks and couldn't care less about sports and/or luxury cars.
Quote from: Tave on September 11, 2009, 09:20:08 PM
Most engineers I know are into full-size trucks and couldn't care less about sports and/or luxury cars.
Well, you are from Wyoming... :lol:
Most engineers that I know are into bicycling and cool technology in cars.
Quote from: Tave on September 11, 2009, 09:20:08 PM
Most engineers I know are into full-size trucks and couldn't care less about sports and/or luxury cars.
I guess they run the gamut. One of my closest friends is an engineer, and he is trying to build his MX-5 into a race car. He does all the work on all of his cars (three total, including his girl's). He is an ME though.
Quote from: Psilos on September 11, 2009, 09:10:52 PM
Don't be so harsh on old Cougsy. He's an engineer, after all. It's no wonder he's such an Objectivist whore.
I'm an engineer too bro
I do think people are being needlessly harsh. I'm sure Cougs gets buns and lives a decent life, and in any case that's all ad hominem
But I do agree that the completely objective analysis of the ownership of said cars is ridiculous. Obviously an 04 Accord V6 w/no options will make for a much more practical and probably objectively higher performing ownership experience (doubtful it will be better in anything but straight line performance though). But that the idea of vehicle dynamics and the driving experience are totally lost on dude are def reflective of someone who doesn't "get it". I would never choose any of these cars as daily drivers or anything I'd have to depend on... but I would def love to have them just cause. Life is too short to resign one's self to automatic V6 black boxes
I'd imagine an Accord would wallop some of those old luxo-barges on a road course too.
Quote from: Tave on September 11, 2009, 09:27:39 PM
I'd imagine an Accord would wallop some of those old luxo-barges on a road course too.
I don't think so.
Not a Seven. Maybe an S class, or an XJ, but definitely not a Seven.
:loopy:
Quote from: 2o6 on September 11, 2009, 09:30:56 PM
I don't think so.
Not a Seven. Maybe an S class, or an XJ, but definitely not a Seven.
Are we talking about that W220 S600? Because it's the Accord that will be seeing its taillights.
I was specifically thinking about the Jag and perhaps an older S-Class.
I absolutely love 2o6's response:
"I think it would beat some of those cars."
"No it wouldn't. It would only beat some of them."
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 11, 2009, 09:34:32 PM
Are we talking about that W220 S600? Because it's the Accord that will be seeing its taillights.
Even the 5.8L 370 hp?
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 11, 2009, 09:24:12 PM
I'm an engineer too bro
I do think people are being needlessly harsh. I'm sure Cougs gets buns and lives a decent life, and in any case that's all ad hominem
But I do agree that the completely objective analysis of the ownership of said cars is ridiculous. Obviously an 04 Accord V6 w/no options will make for a much more practical and probably objectively higher performing ownership experience (doubtful it will be better in anything but straight line performance though). But that the idea of vehicle dynamics and the driving experience are totally lost on dude are def reflective of someone who doesn't "get it". I would never choose any of these cars as daily drivers or anything I'd have to depend on... but I would def love to have them just cause. Life is too short to resign one's self to automatic V6 black boxes
I know; I'm just making fun of engineers. It's a fun past time. You can make fun of science people all you want. :lol:
Quote from: Tave on September 11, 2009, 09:36:06 PM
I was specifically talking about the Jag and perhaps an older S-Class.
I absolutely love 2o6's response:
"I think it would beat some of those cars."
"No it wouldn't. It would only beat some of them."
You were not.
My mistake, I meant "thinking about." Already edited my post.
Holy good hairy gods you guys, relax, especially you ChrisV.
Don't cry for me - I get more than my fix of cool hands-on techno experience from my 9-to-5. Further, this jihad against the Accord is supremely ironic as when we all step back and take a breath we all full know that relative to what people actually own here on the 'Spin own, it's at least in the top 25% in terms of performance, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the top 10%.
As to engineers and enthusiasm; obviously I've known a LOT of (mostly mechanical) engineers and the vast majority are NOT car enthusiasts. Some will own moderate performance cars like a WRX, Mustang GT or 5 series, but they just drive 'em. Engineers tend to be more into techie active hobbies; flying, sailing, biking, skiing, etc.
Quote from: 2o6 on September 11, 2009, 09:30:56 PM
I don't think so.
Not a Seven. Maybe an S class, or an XJ, but definitely not a Seven.
The E38's were competent vehicles, I'd imagine the Accord having a tough time.
The W220 V12 S-class' were always good handling vehicles, (if a bit numb) and if they are the bi-turbo V12 models, well, an Accord simply doesn't have a shot.
The XJ was relatively decent in the cornering department from what I remember, but the current XJ took it a notch up, and I believe is the best handling car in it's class, and better than a few in a class size below it, too.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 08:13:32 PM
No, the point being that college, career, girl friend(s), other hobbies, etc., make owning those types of vehicles a real chore. Though the Demon and Camaro were fairly quick (I estimate low 14 sec 1/4 mile) they were absolutely atrocious in braking, handling, reliability, safety, MPG, etc. They were fun, but it is highly unlikely I'll ever own one again, as I've alluded to previously, an Accord V6 Coupe is a vastly superior vehicle in all objective regards, even if it doesn't have a V8 rumble or legendary nameplate.
To carry the tit-for-tat analogy to the thread, the quasi ego boost of driving a has-been luxury sedan means a lot to some. I don't discount that; my point is that I call it out for what it is - swapping that ego boost for a lesser performing and all-around inferior vehicle. Further, you'll not ever convince me that driving a 15 year old 4,300 lb land yacht such as a 740i or S500 is objectively more pleasurable than driving an '08 Accord V6 sedan. Further, it is easily objectively proven that the 740i/S500 will be the lesser performing vehicle in all regards.
(Wow, guys - this call-out didn't exactly go your way, did it?)
How so?
I can guarantee you;
guarantee you, that a used $30,000 S600 would trounce an Accord V6 on a track, and absolutely pillage it in a straight line. Further more, an S600 is far more luxurious on the inside (extremely high quality leather covering nearly surface in the car, a suede headliner, wood galore, massaging seats, power rear seats, etc) and offers a more supple ride while, mind you, while being able to beat an Accord V6 in any driving comparison one could throw at it.
Mind you, I'm not bashing the accord. I happen to like the Accord, but it's not the new gold standard...
This thread just keeps getting better.
What's with all of this Accord hating?
A $30k Accord will certainly cost a lot less than anything $30k and V12 over the long-run. That's a fact.
Let him have his cake.
Personally, I'd love to have a W220 S600, but most of the V8 versions are just as good with a lot less headaches down the road.
Quote from: the Teuton on September 11, 2009, 11:15:44 PM
What's with all of this Accord hating?
A $30k Accord will certainly cost a lot less than anything $30k and V12 over the long-run. That's a fact.
Let him have his cake.
Personally, I'd love to have a W220 S600, but most of the V8 versions are just as good with a lot less headaches down the road.
I'm going to sick ChriSV on you, hold on there let em call htim
Hey ChisV, look at what TheTouton posted that hes an unthusiaist.
Quote from: NACar on September 11, 2009, 11:17:13 PM
Hey ChisV, look at what TheTouton posted that hes an unthusiaist.
Are you drunk?
A Phaeton would also be nice, but was the W12 model really any better than the W8?
Quote from: the Teuton on September 11, 2009, 11:18:20 PM
Are you drunk?
He's hopped up on opiates thanks to his broken pinky toe.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 10:01:01 PM
Holy good hairy gods you guys, relax, especially you ChrisV.
Don't cry for me - I get more than my fix of cool hands-on techno experience from my 9-to-5. Further, this jihad against the Accord is supremely ironic as when we all step back and take a breath we all full know that relative to what people actually own here on the 'Spin own, it's at least in the top 25% in terms of performance, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the top 10%.
[...]
More laughing than crying.
I wonder how many of us would trade in what they drive now for a V6 Accord of similar value. I'd suggest not many, or they would have bought one. ;) You also seem to be missing the point that how fast a car gets to 1/4 mile, or even how fast you can get it around a track, is not always the most important thing in evaluating a car. Otherwise, why would anyone still drive MGs?
Quote from: Tave on September 11, 2009, 09:38:22 PM
Even the 5.8L 370 hp?
MB's equipped with the 5.8 V12 do 0-60 in around 5.5 - 6.0 seconds real time. Isn't that quicker than any current Accord?
Quote from: the Teuton on September 11, 2009, 11:19:25 PM
A Phaeton would also be nice, but was the W12 model really any better than the W8?
The Phaeton W12 vs Phaeton W8 reminds me of the R129 Mercedes 600SL vs R129 Mercedes 500SL - the V12 version is heavier and handles less well. In the case of the 600SL vs 500SL situation the 500SL is few milliseconds slower to 100 km/h than the 600SL. The 600SL was basically all about prestige and status, more so than the 500SL. That's the impression I get with the Phaeton W12 too.
There is no Phaeton W8. The Phaeton uses the Audi V8. The W8 had a short lived career in the Passat. My problem with the V8 Phaeton is that it is relatively noisy compared to the W12 and the V6 TDI. It does not fit the character of the car.
If I lived in the US, definitely at your fuel prices.
In the UK, the petrol engined luxury cars depreciate much faster than that diesels. It would be tempting to buy an 8- or 12-cylinder sedan over a diesel (e.g. 740i vs 730d), especially if you didn't do that many miles. The downsides are obviously continued depreciation after you've bought the damn thing, and higher maintenance costs.
Quote from: ChrisV on September 11, 2009, 08:32:57 PM
Sorry, cougs, I've driven exotics on the track, I've driven homebuilt race cars on the track, both cheap ass wannabe drag cars like yours and sports cars. Saying "ooh, I built a cheap old Camaro, and now drive an Accord, so I know how a top of the line BMW sport sedan drives" is fucking bullshit of the highest order. You really don't know shit. And I say that in the nicest possible way.
Lesser performing is ONLY in a fucking straight line and even then it's marginal at best. The relentless pull that a V12 car gives under acceleration cannot be matched by some Accord or Camry with a 4 or V6, no matter HOW much hp it makes. And the driving dynamics of a RWD sedan with suspension tuned specifically for handling is WORLDS different than a fucking every-man FWD shitbox.
Fuck off and get the fuck out of these threads until you actually have a goddamn clue.
Aren't you being a bit extreme here.
So it's obvious the guy has limited experience and is talking through his hat. So what, he is entitled to his opinion . I doubt that he's ever driven anything more exciting than that duster so he has a limited basis for comparison.
Quote from: the Teuton on September 11, 2009, 11:19:25 PM
A Phaeton would also be nice, but was the W12 model really any better than the W8?
I don't know, but I met a Phaeton owner who said he also has a 7 series, and prefers the Phaeton because it's better to drive.
Quote from: Psilos on September 12, 2009, 02:56:04 AM
More laughing than crying.
I wonder how many of us would trade in what they drive now for a V6 Accord of similar value. I'd suggest not many, or they would have bought one. ;) You also seem to be missing the point that how fast a car gets to 1/4 mile, or even how fast you can get it around a track, is not always the most important thing in evaluating a car. Otherwise, why would anyone still drive MGs?
The only people who drive MGs and other old cars are ignorant to a fact that an Accord does everything better. Same thing with MX-5 owners. Can you imagine the sheepish look on the face of a man who rolls up to a stoplight in:
(http://www.autospies.com/images/users/omarrana/1961_ferrari_gt_swb_california_images_1.jpg)
When he's
trounced handily by someone in:
(http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/07/11/054765.2-lg.jpg)
?
Seppuku would be in order.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 10:01:01 PM
Holy good hairy gods you guys, relax, especially you ChrisV.
Don't cry for me - I get more than my fix of cool hands-on techno experience from my 9-to-5. Further, this jihad against the Accord is supremely ironic as when we all step back and take a breath we all full know that relative to what people actually own here on the 'Spin own, it's at least in the top 25% in terms of performance, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the top 10%.
As to engineers and enthusiasm; obviously I've known a LOT of (mostly mechanical) engineers and the vast majority are NOT car enthusiasts. Some will own moderate performance cars like a WRX, Mustang GT or 5 series, but they just drive 'em. Engineers tend to be more into techie active hobbies; flying, sailing, biking, skiing, etc.
You
still think this is about straightline performance. :huh:
No wonder you think steering and feel are unimportant. Apparently your steering wheel is just for show.
I have to say, Cougs, a lot of this makes me wonder...
:wtf:
That Ferrari is worth more than my parents' house.
Tell me Raza, why didn't you buy a used S600, 750, or XJ12 instead of your Jetta?
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 12, 2009, 04:46:35 AM
MB's equipped with the 5.8 V12 do 0-60 in around 5.5 - 6.0 seconds real time. Isn't that quicker than any current Accord?
Over here, most reviews did it in 5.4 - 5.5 seconds.
Quote from: Tave on September 12, 2009, 07:39:00 AM
:wtf:
That Ferrari is worth more than my parents' house.
Tell me Raza, why didn't you buy a used S600, 750, or XJ12 instead of your Jetta?
Because he is a pussy. Because handling, steering feel, feedback, et all are for fagots, and the only thing that matters is the smooth, relentless power of an Accord V6. The only thing is, Raza is a pussy, so he got the turbo I-4, and as we all know, anyone who has less than 210 horsepower in their car is a giant pussy.
Why don't you change your name from Raza to "I'm a huge pussy" and save us the trouble of calling you one every time you talk about your gay car.
This thread does indeed keep getting better - hard to imagine we have only profoundly poor reading comprehension to thank for it.
:popcorn:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 12, 2009, 07:57:42 AM
This thread does indeed keep getting better - hard to imagine we have only profoundly poor reading comprehension to thank for it.
Your post needs this pic:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e180/roychase123/ThreadDelivers.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 10:01:01 PM
Holy good hairy gods you guys, relax, especially you ChrisV.
Don't cry for me - I get more than my fix of cool hands-on techno experience from my 9-to-5. Further, this jihad against the Accord is supremely ironic as when we all step back and take a breath we all full know that relative to what people actually own here on the 'Spin own, it's at least in the top 25% in terms of performance, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's in the top 10%.
The "jihad" against the Accord is not some conspiracy to sully your good name, just a reaction to your assertions that superior straight line performance is the be all end all parameter of the driving experience & overall automotive superiority. Obviously many of us drive slower cars... you're the only person here who is asserting that your car, in all its cookie cutting glory is some automotive Godsend for beating a heavier, less powerful AWD car in an impromptu street race.
I mean never mind comparing it to actual sports sedans, it's not even a fun drive with respect to cars in its class...
"Actually, the Honda Accord keeps pace with the segment's fastest sedans in terms of straight-line acceleration, but when it comes to outright handling prowess, the Passat, Altima and new Mazda 6 have it beat."
"Both at our test facility and in the real world we found the Accord fully adequate at up to seven-tenths driving. Body roll is nicely controlled and the suspension manages to soak up most bumps without feeling overly harsh or too floaty. Push it harder and the tires are the first components to leave the party. The P205/60R Michelin MXV4s simply aren't meant for serious road holding and tended to "wash out" easily on twisty roads. "
Plus it's fast, but not really
that fast, having been bested by less powerful V6 sedans almost 10 years older (5sp Nissan Maxima):
"it was doing zero to 60 mph in seven seconds flat."
Not much faster than its contemporaries, or the Audi you "decimated".
Plus you write these cars off without presenting any indication that you have any experience with them. I mean I am sure they won't handle as well as say, a 3 series or A4, but journalists have been more positive about these cars than the Accord for sure:
(Edmunds on the 750iL, winning a comparo against other luxury sedans):
"This is the sports car of the group. More so than any of the others, the BMW lends itself to involving the driver. The ride quality isn't the best, no doubt hampered by the optional 18-inch wheels and tires. Road and wind noise is also higher than in the Lexus or the Mercedes
But the payoff is in sheer grip and confidence. During the canyon part of our test, the BMW was the most fun to drive, and its steering provided the most communication and the best weighting. The BMW also managed to achieve the highest level of lateral grip on our skidpad.
More confidence comes from the huge brakes, the electronically controlled damping and the Dynamic Stability Control. During testing, we noted how the traction and stability control could make an average driver even better. It inhibits a highly skilled driver, but the system is subtle in its actions, especially when compared to the Lexus or Mercedes."
Plus there's something beyond #'s in the experience of driving a luxury car. Something beyond even your goofy notions of an inflated sense of self importance (ironic given your continual reminders of your perceived superiority over others here, as in sig). If that is all lost on you then I feel for you as you are missing out on a big part of the driving experience. If an Accord V6 is the be all end all... ah. That is an "Intrepidation".
This is listed for ?16,700...
(http://i.ebayimg.com/20/!!quKPug!20~$(KGrHgoH-DoEjlLlw14UBKil1qGirQ~~_19.JPG)
W12, 2003, 99,700km.
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 11, 2009, 08:44:37 PM
Another contender for Great Automotive Quotes In History. :lol: :rockon:
More like contender for people who need to take a massive chill pill.
Any deviation in opinion here is simply intolerable.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 12, 2009, 10:05:29 AM
This is listed for ?16,700...
(http://i.ebayimg.com/20/!!quKPug!20~$(KGrHgoH-DoEjlLlw14UBKil1qGirQ~~_19.JPG)
W12, 2003, 99,700km.
Nice car.
The best part it that people wouldn't even have to know that you bought it used.
Quote from: R-inge on September 12, 2009, 10:11:14 AM
More like contender for people who need to take a massive chill pill.
Any deviation in opinion here is simply intolerable.
I have some chill pills.
Quote from: NACar on September 12, 2009, 10:15:25 AM
I have some chill pills.
Like to send me some?
(Actually, I think my wife has some... brb)
Quote from: R-inge on September 12, 2009, 09:41:37 AM
Your post needs this pic:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e180/roychase123/ThreadDelivers.jpg)
Yeah, I know I have a penchant for rocking the boat a bit but I wasn't intending to do so here - a few completely rewrote the context of my comments and now they find themselves riled up if not offended. Meh - I still like the Internets.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 12, 2009, 10:30:50 AM
Yeah, I know I have a penchant for rocking the boat a bit but I wasn't intending to do so here - a few completely rewrote the context of my comments and now they find themselves riled up if not offended. Meh - I still like the Internets.
Well, who cares about them?
If anything it's fun imagining these guys behind their keyboards furiously typing out some response, alternating tabs Wiki to make sure they get their figures right, because that's really important.
I mean, I get the point that sometimes owning an older car is cool and has its perks, but sometimes it's pure masochism.
Some people don't like the value proposition and would rather have a car like the Honda which is competent at least on the same level as any of these cars (yeah yeah, ChrisV would beat you but only in his mind... waiting now for a furious post on that comment as well...) and you won't have to worry about it breaking down on you anytime soon.
I'm somewhere in the middle.
Quote from: R-inge on September 12, 2009, 10:38:13 AM
Well, who cares about them?
If anything it's fun imagining these guys behind their keyboards furiously typing out some response, alternating tabs Wiki to make sure they get their figures right, because that's really important.
I mean, I get the point that sometimes owning an older car is cool and has its perks, but sometimes it's pure masochism.
Some people don't like the value proposition and would rather have a car like the Honda which is competent at least on the same level as any of these cars (yeah yeah, ChrisV would beat you but only in his mind... waiting now for a furious post on that comment as well...) and you won't have to worry about it breaking down on you anytime soon.
I'm somewhere in the middle.
Too true - In hindsight I did hijack the thread a bit as I ran with the presumption that sporty was considering such a purchase (as he has posted a number of "what should I buy" threads in the past). In looking back I don't think he actually quite said it (but IMO I still think he meant it).
The vast majority of major automotive enthusiasts that I know don't own fancy cars; quite the opposite - they do what they do using as a base really mundane rides; BMW, Audi, M-B, Jaguar, et al., are very rare in my experience.
The continued 'Spin assertion that enthusiasm is predicated on the badge of the car shows how very amateurish we are as a group when it comes to being true automotive enthusiasts (I'm an amateur too, but not for that reason).
Quote from: Tave on September 12, 2009, 07:39:00 AM
:wtf:
That Ferrari is worth more than my parents' house.
Tell me Raza, why didn't you buy a used S600, 750, or XJ12 instead of your Jetta?
...because I couldn't afford it...
And no manual. And I don't like large luxury sedans because they're like driving pudding.
Something else though; I drove a V6 Accord in 2004 and considered it for purchase. And we all know how that went.
Also, isn't that the point? This car costs significantly more than a V6 Accord, and can't keep up. It would probably be destroyed around a track too. Which would you rather own?
Quote from: R-inge on September 12, 2009, 10:38:13 AM
Well, who cares about them?
If anything it's fun imagining these guys behind their keyboards furiously typing out some response, alternating tabs Wiki to make sure they get their figures right, because that's really important.
I mean, I get the point that sometimes owning an older car is cool and has its perks, but sometimes it's pure masochism.
Some people don't like the value proposition and would rather have a car like the Honda which is competent at least on the same level as any of these cars (yeah yeah, ChrisV would beat you but only in his mind... waiting now for a furious post on that comment as well...) and you won't have to worry about it breaking down on you anytime soon.
I'm somewhere in the middle.
That's not exactly what he said, though, was it?
Quote from: Raza on September 12, 2009, 11:20:10 AM
And I don't like large luxury sedans because they're like driving pudding.
The Porsche company agrees.
(http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1552803,00.jpg)
Yes I know. You don't like the transmission.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 12, 2009, 10:59:47 AM
Too true - In hindsight I did hijack the thread a bit as I ran with the presumption that sporty was considering such a purchase (as he has posted a number of "what should I buy" threads in the past). In looking back I don't think he actually quite said it (but IMO I still think he meant it).
The vast majority of major automotive enthusiasts that I know don't own fancy cars; quite the opposite - they do what they do using as a base really mundane rides; BMW, Audi, M-B, Jaguar, et al., are very rare in my experience.
The continued 'Spin assertion that enthusiasm is predicated on the badge of the car shows how very amateurish we are as a group when it comes to being true automotive enthusiasts (I'm an amateur too, but not for that reason).
We all know what happens when you assume. Even in all my automotive irresponsibility and masochism I wouldn't do this to myself. This thread was made more to see just how much car you could get for the price of a used Accord or w/e.
Are they the most pragmatic/cost effective choices as daily drivers? As cars for the track or w/e? Obviously not. But to discount what these cars have to offer at 15-20K or w/e is basically writing them off completely, because if they make no sense now they made 6x less sense new. But this thread isn't about what 'makes sense'.
Plus I find it goofy to write off someone in an older luxury car as a "fake baller". Who's to say they haven't had the car since new? Or that they are someone like ChrisV who has the know how & patience to legitimately take on the ownership of a car like an E38 740? Again it all comes back to making unreasonable, somewhat self-serving assumptions.
Quote from: Raza on September 12, 2009, 11:24:31 AM
That's not exactly what he said, though, was it?
No, but I believe my statement is within the spirit of what he said.
The art of conciliation is to find points or intent to agree with and emphasize rather than the alternative.
Quote from: R-inge on September 12, 2009, 10:38:13 AM
Well, who cares about them?
If anything it's fun imagining these guys behind their keyboards furiously typing out some response, alternating tabs Wiki to make sure they get their figures right, because that's really important.
I mean, I get the point that sometimes owning an older car is cool and has its perks, but sometimes it's pure masochism.
Some people don't like the value proposition and would rather have a car like the Honda which is competent at least on the same level as any of these cars (yeah yeah, ChrisV would beat you but only in his mind... waiting now for a furious post on that comment as well...) and you won't have to worry about it breaking down on you anytime soon.
I'm somewhere in the middle.
You at least understand the reasons for owning an older performance car. It has nothing to do with dollars and sense It has everything to do with driving someing you want to drive, period.
Pure masochism? At times, yes. I've spent time beside the interstate waiting for the tow truck because the fuel pump died or the points fell apart. It's part of the cost of owning an older car. You're either willing to accept that or your not, it's a personal choice and it's absolutely insame to attack someone based on their desire to own or not own a classic car. In a way it's like the love of art or classical music or anything else, you either do or you don't.
Edit: "sense" wa spelled that way on purpose..
Here's one reason to own one, the neat events you can participate in.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 12, 2009, 11:35:59 AM
The Porsche company agrees.
(http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1552803,00.jpg)
Yes I know. You don't like the transmission.
I should have said
most. But on a car like that, the transmission makes sense. It's fine, but it's not for me.
Quote from: R-inge on September 12, 2009, 12:22:45 PM
No, but I believe my statement is within the spirit of what he said.
The art of conciliation is to find points or intent to agree with and emphasize rather than the alternative.
Compromise is a sin, never forget that.
( ;) )
Quote from: GoCougs on September 12, 2009, 10:59:47 AM
The continued 'Spin assertion that enthusiasm is predicated on the badge of the car shows how very amateurish we are as a group when it comes to being true automotive enthusiasts (I'm an amateur too, but not for that reason).
That's not what we have said.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 12, 2009, 07:57:42 AM
This thread does indeed keep getting better - hard to imagine we have only profoundly poor reading comprehension to thank for it.
Clearly, that is the case.
Quote from: Galaxy on September 12, 2009, 05:39:17 AM
There is no Phaeton W8. The Phaeton uses the Audi V8. The W8 had a short lived career in the Passat. My problem with the V8 Phaeton is that it is relatively noisy compared to the W12 and the V6 TDI. It does not fit the character of the car.
:ohyeah:
Nine years ago, I had corporate use of a brand new, E38 BMW 740i for about 10,000 miles.
Far from being a behemoth, it was a car that shrank around me, the harder I pushed it, with nary a twitch. I have never driven an Accord that inspired as much confidence as that car did. Nor an Accord that soothed or sounded like that car.
In no way are an E38 and an Accord comparable,
new -v- new,
used -v- new,
or any other which way you want to cut it.
These two products had different development goals, different development costs, and different target markets.
Try driving an E38 740i, hard, down an unknown road, and a road you know well. Now do the same in a 2008 Accord.
Sure, there may be those who do not want to believe there is a difference.
But there indubitably is.
Even for most dense driver; the type who, for the sake of the planet and the safety of everyone else, should really be taking the bus.
Hell, the E23 was a more involving drive than any Accord in the 33 years Honda has been making them. I still can't figure out how this comparison came about.
If the Accord must be compared to a luxury car of any era - try the Acura RL...
Quote from: CaMIRO on September 13, 2009, 09:36:03 AM
Nine years ago, I had corporate use of a brand new, E38 BMW 740i for about 10,000 miles.
Far from being a behemoth, it was a car that shrank around me, the harder I pushed it, with nary a twitch. I have never driven an Accord that inspired as much confidence as that car did. Nor an Accord that soothed or sounded like that car.
In no way are an E38 and an Accord comparable,
new -v- new,
used -v- new,
or any other which way you want to cut it.
These two products had different development goals, different development costs, and different target markets.
Try driving an E38 740i, hard, down an unknown road, and a road you know well. Now do the same in a 2008 Accord.
Sure, there may be those who do not want to believe there is a difference.
But there indubitably is.
Even for most dense driver; the type who, for the sake of the planet and the safety of everyone else, should really be taking the bus.
Hell, the E23 was a more involving drive than any Accord in the 33 years Honda has been making them. I still can't figure out how this comparison came about.
If the Accord must be compared to a luxury car of any era - try the Acura RL...
Even a 1990 Audi V8 Quattro with 260,000 miles is a better drive than a new Accord. Cougs is just Cougs.
Sigh - yet more diversion and reading comprehension fail, if a bit more high brow in its attempt.
You guys are absolutely horrific in your Internetry at times.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 10:17:37 AM
Sigh - yet more diversion and reading comprehension fail, if a bit more high brow in its attempt.
You guys are absolutely horrific in your Internetry at times.
Have you ever noticed how every one who disagrees with you only does so due to poor reading comprehension? :rolleyes:
Quote from: NACar on September 13, 2009, 09:48:00 AM
Even a 1990 Audi V8 Quattro with 260,000 miles is a better drive than a new Accord.
Ah yes--a car you quickly replaced with a Volvo station wagon and Suzuki Swift after a few short months of ownership fraught with every mechanical issue and expense imaginable: what a great example of purchasing an exotic on a budget.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=19878.msg1157925#msg1157925 date=1252776010
Also, isn't that the point? This car costs significantly more than a V6 Accord, and can't keep up. It would probably be destroyed around a track too. Which would you rather own?
Not the point at all.
Quote from: Tave on September 13, 2009, 10:25:14 AM
Ah yes--a car you replaced with a Volvo station wagon and Suzuki Swift after a few short months of ownership fraught with every mechanical issue and expense imaginable: what a great example of owning an exotic on a budget.
:facepalm:
You don't have to be an asshole about it. There were only a couple of things wrong with that car, and nothing that I couldn't have fixed if I had a goddamn place to work on it. You don't even know the half of it. Asshole.
Why the hell are we comparing the Accord to these V12 cars?
I mean where is the frigging Camry!? Why has it been left out of the equation? :facepalm:
You people are so biased! :thumbsup:
Quote from: NACar on September 13, 2009, 10:23:11 AM
Have you ever noticed how every one who disagrees with you only does so due to poor reading comprehension? :rolleyes:
I addressed only the objective criteria of performance (specifically, acceleration, braking, handling), reliability and cost of ownership (none of which were even really contested save by the forum's crotchety curmudgeon or two).
The "enthusiasts" of the forum embarked a subjective opinion jihad ("steering feel" or "confidence" or "smoothness" or whatever) to tell me I was wrong. This was of course was logical fallacy (i.e., rewriting the objective with the subjective).
Granted, there was then a bit of back and forth that accomplished nothing but I surmise the forum got diverted on this jihad in presuming I was implicitly stating that the V6 CamCord was a "better" car or the "preferred car" or whatever. In short, "poor reading comprehension" by the forum.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 11:21:10 AM
I addressed only the objective criteria of performance (specifically, acceleration, braking, handling), reliability and cost of ownership (none of which were even really contested save by the forum's crotchety curmudgeon or two).
The "enthusiasts" of the forum embarked a subjective opinion jihad ("steering feel" or "confidence" or "smoothness" or whatever) to tell me I was wrong. This was of course was logical fallacy (i.e., rewriting the objective with the subjective).
Granted, there was then a bit of back and forth that accomplished nothing but I surmise the forum got diverted on this jihad in presuming I was implicitly stating that the V6 CamCord was a "better" car or the "preferred car" or whatever. In short, "poor reading comprehension" by the forum.
You're doing it again.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 11:21:10 AM
I addressed only the objective criteria of performance (specifically, acceleration, braking, handling), reliability and cost of ownership (none of which were even really contested save by the forum's crotchety curmudgeon or two).
Cougs
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 01:03:20 PM
I understand the allure of the badge, but objectively speaking I'd think twice about it - your average V6 CamCord of today would be as good or better an all around performer, would be far cheaper to repair and maintain, and be infinitely more reliable.
Fair enough, though the badge is really of minor consideration. If Toyota made a car on the level of something like an S600 it would be a no brainer. In any case Byteme responded with this, and I will bolden the important words as your reading comp seems to have failed you here.
Quote from: Byteme on September 11, 2009, 01:05:42 PM
Probably correct but if one is considering a car like those shown here they are undoubtably looking for more of a driving experience than a Camry could ever hope to provide.
Meaning he acknowledges all you said regarding hard #s, reliability, maintenance w/e but still rightfully insists there is more to the driving and ownership experiences of these cars- something you clearly missed in your response
Quote from: GoCougs on September 11, 2009, 02:56:52 PM
Perhaps the 850CSi w/MT, but the others? They're AT-equipped sedans that on their best days probably couldn't run with a newer V6 Accord or V6 Camry of the same value.
When your purchase can't keep pace with a CamCord, will cost a mint to fix and maintain and be a reliability nightmare, yes, I think such a thing can be.
That you took solace in your V6 DX Accord beating the A4 speaks volumes of your automotive values. Not sure what you were looking to accomplish in this thread, but it doesnt seem that you've succeded
Never did I ever understand that hard numbers don't mean much as when I bought my SVT Focus. It kicks ass all over any of the Mustangs I've had in terms of handling and driving experience despite being much slower.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 13, 2009, 12:02:35 PM
Cougs
Fair enough, though the badge is really of minor consideration. If Toyota made a car on the level of something like an S600 it would be a no brainer. In any case Byteme responded with this, and I will bolden the important words as your reading comp seems to have failed you here.
Meaning he acknowledges all you said regarding hard #s, reliability, maintenance w/e but still rightfully insists there is more to the driving and ownership experiences of these cars- something you clearly missed in your response
Oh, sporty don't carry that torch. If he had said it as a standalone argument or otherwise not used it to jump on the "you're wrong" bandwagon, fine, but he didn't.
Quote
That you took solace in your V6 DX Accord beating the A4 speaks volumes of your automotive values. Not sure what you were looking to accomplish in this thread, but it doesnt seem that you've succeded
So, by then extension that my car is above yours in better than yours in most every regard means that I have more "automotive values" than do you? C'mon.
I have succeeded in great measure judging by the (intentional?) diversion, obfuscation and um, enthusiasm - apparently people don't like hearing that has-been luxo barges are outdone in virtually every objective measure by the V6 CamCord of today.
This thread reminds me of that old VW Golf ad...
"This is the man who put a million on black... and it came up red.
This is the man who married a sex kitten... just before she turned into a cat.
This man drives a Golf Honda Accord.
Because everyone needs something they can rely on..."
(http://www.jaguar-xj8.com/xj12c_1976_white_profile.jpg)
"Sex kitten"
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 03:22:06 PM
Oh, sporty don't carry that torch. If he had said it as a standalone argument or otherwise not used it to jump on the "you're wrong" bandwagon, fine, but he didn't.
So, by then extension that my car is above yours in better than yours in most every regard means that I have more "automotive values" than do you? C'mon.
I have succeeded in great measure judging by the (intentional?) diversion, obfuscation and um, enthusiasm - apparently people don't like hearing that has-been luxo barges are outdone in virtually every objective measure by the V6 CamCord of today.
You're doing it again.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 03:22:06 PM
Oh, sporty don't carry that torch. If he had said it as a standalone argument or otherwise not used it to jump on the "you're wrong" bandwagon, fine, but he didn't.
So, by then extension that my car is above yours in better than yours in most every regard means that I have more "automotive values" than do you? C'mon.
I have succeeded in great measure judging by the (intentional?) diversion, obfuscation and um, enthusiasm - apparently people don't like hearing that has-been luxo barges are outdone in virtually every objective measure by the V6 CamCord of today.
Reading comprehension fail. Again.
We don't care if the modern CamCord posts better numbers in any category than the luxury cars we're talking about, because that is not the point of those cars. I think I've said that five times already, and so has everyone else.
But just in case, if the Accord is so good,
THEN WHY WOULD ANYONE DRIVE ANYTHING ELSE?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 03:22:06 PM
... apparently people don't like hearing that has-been luxo barges are outdone in virtually every objective measure by the V6 CamCord of today.
I can't say I've ever seen anyone base their car purchase purely on "objective measures" (a meaningless term if ever there was one).
It thus seems wrong to apply the term to automobiles, and it's more wrong still to claim ownership of "objectivity."
Quote from: Raza on September 13, 2009, 03:27:11 PM
Care to elaborate then, fuckface?
Cougs' original point was misplaced, but valid. That point was that these cars are probably not going to be cheap to drive, and so are less practical than a V6 Accord. That's true, even if it doesn't matter to us. But then his argument changed to OMG CAMC0rd Betterz taHn ALLL AND whatz poiknt of any6thingz elzes!?!?!? And that's where he's a dumbass.
Cougs completely fails to realize that the value of his precious objectivity is a subjective matter, itself, and thus his unwaivering "logic" renders itself illogical. Reality comprehension fail. :facepalm:
Quote from: NACar on September 13, 2009, 03:36:26 PM
Cougs completely fails to realize that the value of his precious objectivity is a subjective matter, itself, and thus his unwaivering "logic" renders itself illogical. Reality comprehension fail. :facepalm:
Oh, snap.
Cougs basically goes by WWARD? What Would Ayn Rand Do? And since her whole worldview was called Objectivism, he thinks that subjective passion, etc. have no place in, uh, anything.
Thing is, "objective measures" and "on paper" are not one and the same; at least, not in the way they've been presented here.
Ha, ha. Wow, do you guys do well in getting yourselves worked up over straw men.
And what of that phantom post by Raza? Did Psilos invent, or did Raza run?
Quote from: Psilos on September 13, 2009, 03:32:27 PM
Cougs' original point was misplaced, but valid. That point was that these cars are probably not going to be cheap to drive, and so are less practical than a V6 Accord. That's true, even if it doesn't matter to us. But then his argument changed to OMG CAMC0rd Betterz taHn ALLL AND whatz poiknt of any6thingz elzes!?!?!? And that's where he's a dumbass.
:ohyeah:
Quote from: CaMIRO on September 13, 2009, 03:42:46 PM
Thing is, "objective measures" and "on paper" are not one and the same; at least, not in the way they've been presented here.
Good point. A Miata has objectively better steering feel than a LeSabre, even though there isn't any metric for measuring it.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 03:44:47 PM
Ha, ha. Wow, do you guys do well in getting yourselves worked up over straw men.
And what of that phantom post by Raza? Did Psilos invent, or did Raza run?
Ha, Raza ran.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 03:44:47 PM
Ha, ha. Wow, do you guys do well in getting yourselves worked up over straw men.
And what of that phantom post by Raza? Did Psilos invent, or did Raza run?
LOL
Quote from: Psilos on September 13, 2009, 03:32:27 PM
But then his argument changed to...
His argument never changed. The idea that the CamCord is objectively better in the given categories was offered as support for the idea that they are better choices for someone on a limited budget. Reliability, fuel economy, power, safety, etc... are all reasons to choose a new mainstream over an old exotic when you're worried about cash.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 03:22:06 PM
Oh, sporty don't carry that torch. If he had said it as a standalone argument or otherwise not used it to jump on the "you're wrong" bandwagon, fine, but he didn't.
Cougs, if anyone has anything to say in contrast to what you believe they are jumping on the "you're wrong" bandwagon. Byteme's point did stand alone.
QuoteSo, by then extension that my car is above yours in better than yours in most every regard means that I have more "automotive values" than do you? C'mon.
"Automotive values" aren't some quantifiable attribute like a b-ball player's shooting ability in a video game. Either you get it or you don't. That you even thought to bring up CamCords in a discussion about V12 luxobarges says to me that you don't get it.
QuoteI have succeeded in great measure judging by the (intentional?) diversion, obfuscation and um, enthusiasm - apparently people don't like hearing that has-been luxo barges are outdone in virtually every objective measure by the V6 CamCord of today.
You haven't even succeeded in qualifying what you've been successful at in this thread, other than taking us entirely off topic and souring the mood with your absolute opinions. Congrats
Quote from: Tave on September 13, 2009, 03:47:32 PM
His argument never changed. The idea that the CamCord is objectively better in the given categories was offered as support for the idea that they are better choices for someone on a limited budget. Reliability, fuel economy, power, safety, etc... are all reasons to choose a new mainstream over an old exotic when you're worried about cash.
Have you read all of his posts? It was hard to pick out the original argument from the first posts, but whatever ground he had to stand on disappeared pretty quick.
I mean, I don't think you'll find much disagreement with that point when it's put like you put it (duh). Cougs condescended, and then obscured everything under a fog of WWARD, etc.
You guys are as responsible as he is for "souring the mood." You could have ignored him. You could have conceded his small point and moved on.
Instead you tried to "win" an "argument."
Quote from: Tave on September 13, 2009, 03:54:24 PM
You guys are as responsible as he is for "souring the mood." You could have ignored him. You could have conceded his small point and moved on.
Instead you tried to "win" an "argument."
Well, it is the internet...
:lol:
Quote from: Psilos on September 13, 2009, 03:53:19 PM
Have you read all of his posts? It was hard to pick out the original argument from the first posts, but whatever ground he had to stand on disappeared pretty quick.
I mean, I don't think you'll find much disagreement with that point when it's put like that. Cougs condescended, and then obscured everything under a fog of WWARD, etc.
No, he sat back and watched y'all spin your heads in 360 degrees and scream into the wind about nothing.
I restated his point on page 2, and he confirmed. Yet people continued to argue a point he never made.
Quote from: Tave on September 13, 2009, 03:54:24 PM
You guys are as responsible as he is for "souring the mood." You could have ignored him. You could have conceded his small point and moved on.
Instead you tried to "win" an "argument."
Cougs came here with the intent of undermining the enthusiasm of this entire thread. He was the aggressor.
Quote from: Tave on September 13, 2009, 03:56:26 PM
No, he sat back and watched y'all spin your heads in 360 degrees and scream into the wind about nothing.
I restated his point on page 2, and he confirmed. Yet people continued to argue a point he never made.
We've agreed to the point, but then he kept saying things that are dumb.
Ha ha, again. This entire jihad fails as represented IMO by Psilos's masturbatory yet comically unrelated and ad hominem vitriol for things Rand.
Unbelievalbe.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 04:00:41 PM
Ha ha, again. This entire jihad fails as represented IMO by Psilos's masturbatory yet comically unrelated and ad hominem vitriol for things Rand.
Unbelievalbe.
You're the one that's masturbating :rolleyes:
Quote from: NACar on September 13, 2009, 03:58:46 PM
Cougs came here with the intent of undermining the enthusiasm of this entire thread. He was the aggressor.
Is that how you broke your toe?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 04:00:41 PM
Ha ha, again. This entire jihad fails as represented IMO by Psilos's masturbatory yet comically unrelated and ad hominem vitriol for things Rand.
Unbelievalbe.
You make it too easy.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 13, 2009, 03:49:40 PMYou haven't even succeeded in qualifying what you've been successful at in this thread, other than taking us entirely off topic and souring the mood with your absolute opinions.
I think his point is now that this thread should not have gone off topic.
I agree.
(http://www.car-tr.com/wp/Rolls%20Royce/rolls_royce_silver_seraph_2001_01_b.jpg)
(http://www.spiterijag.com.au/images/gallery/galler17.jpg)
(http://www.autoplenum.de/Bilder/P/p0002078/JAGUAR/JAGUAR-XJS-V12-Automatik-2-2-Convertible--1993-1995-.jpg)
(http://www.fastestlaps.com/photos/BMW_850_CSi_(e31)_4801341e23371.jpg)
(http://www.greatescapecars.co.uk/images/library/files/JaguarEtypeV12pic4.jpg)
(http://www.autowallpaper.de/Wallpaper/Mercedes/MB_S-Klasse_W140/bilder/MB_600_SEL_W140_2.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lsyt_wQ2awY/SI9fdgKVuTI/AAAAAAAAAiI/n0UDRRHyGIE/s400/Mercedes-Benz-600_Pullman_Limousine_1964_800x600_wallpaper_07.jpg)
Jag wins. :wub:
At least two of those cars are going to list really high.
I'll take the Silver Seraph, thanks. Or an Arnage.
Quote from: Psilos on September 13, 2009, 04:05:41 PM
Jag wins. :wub:
I agree... but I've long harbored a fascination with this particular beast -
(http://katalog-automobilov.sk/img/mercedes-s-w140-600-sec-6.jpg)
To paraphrase David E. Davis -
Damn the Datsuns Camcords, full speed ahead!The Camcord is, as it ever was, intelligently pared down to a price for the Wal-Mart shopper.
In ten years, driving that same Camcord won't be quite so intelligent.
The Camcord becomes obsolete.
The respect it inspires is based chiefly on how efficiently it can move you from point to point.
Several of the cars in this thread were once dubbed "best in the world."
Take the Bugatti Royale, for instance.
Built to be no less than the best.
The motivations of its creator remain relevant today.
And its impact is eternal.
No matter how much better a Camcord is to drive, it'll be crushed in the next Cars for Clunkers program.
As the Royale lives on to inspire the next generation.
Quote from: Psilos on September 13, 2009, 03:45:54 PM
Ha, Raza ran.
I thought my use of "fuckface" was too strong, then when I went to edit, I decided I didn't care enough, so I deleted it. :lol:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 11, 2009, 06:20:38 AM
There are actually quite a few options :rastaman:
W220 S600! (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=265763128&dealer_id=29680869&car_year=2001&rdm=1252671331068&num_records=25&systime=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=12+Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=11216&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=15000&cardist=13&standard=false)
SL600 with the 390HP motor (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=267353911&dealer_id=1388892&car_year=1997&rdm=1252671331068&num_records=25&systime=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=12+Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=11216&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=15000&cardist=213&standard=false)
850Ci. (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=262568022&dealer_id=603071&car_year=1993&rdm=1252671331068&num_records=25&systime=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=12+Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=11216&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=15000&cardist=159&standard=false)
88 XJS, 33K miles. Prob barely runs (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=265376782&dealer_id=64382683&car_year=1988&rdm=1252671331068&num_records=25&systime=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=1981&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&engine=12+Cylinder&certified=&body_code=0&fuel=&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=200&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&make=&keywords_display=&color=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=11216&advanced=y&end_year=2010&doors=&transmission=&max_price=15000&cardist=208&standard=false)
Would u take the risk??? 1 tune up would prob cost a quarter of the car's value :lol:
So, sporty, since you
asked, I'll answer. And I'm glad you did, because I've been thinking about this a bit plus such a topic is bound to spearhead vigorous yet level-headed, polite, non-diversionary debate. But no, sporty, I wouldn't take the chance. Why, you ask?
The average V6 CamCord of today is more often than not the better all around performer WRT such cars and others of similar ilk (i.e., has-been luxo barges) plus in addition the V6 CamCord will be FAR more reliable, FAR cheaper to maintain and repair, FAR better in MPG, and probably safer and even cheaper to insure.
As an active single who uses a car for hiking, skiing, camping, in addition to working 10 hours a day and doing my best to tomcat about, I simply do not have the inclination to suffer such vehicles as you have listed; in other words I would not trade the aforementioned OBJECTIVE advantages of a V6 CamCord for the SUBJECTIVE advantages others are likely to mention (badge snobbery/legacy obsession, steering feel, V8 or V12 sound, "confidence," etc.).
What you say? Where's your automotive enthusiasm? I rest my enthusiasm primarily on the fact that I keep up on how cars work, and the employment of new and upcoming technologies. Further, having in past lives worked a fair amount on a multitude of vehicles, I now assuage my penchant for techie/hands-on stuff via my career. I thus get enough of an enthusiast's kick from a car that runs high 14s in the 1/4 mile, has decent brakes and handling, and otherwise can be driven 100,000+ miles without any headaches.
[/thread]
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 04:41:40 PM
So, sporty, since you asked, I'll answer. And I'm glad you did, because I've been thinking about this a bit plus such a topic is bound to spearhead vigorous yet level-headed, polite, non-diversionary debate. But no, sporty, I wouldn't take the chance. Why, you ask?
The average V6 CamCord of today is more often than not the better all around performer WRT such cars and others of similar ilk (i.e., has-been luxo barges) plus in addition the V6 CamCord will be FAR more reliable, FAR cheaper to maintain and repair, FAR better in MPG, and probably safer and even cheaper to insure.
As an active single who uses a car for hiking, skiing, camping, in addition to working 10 hours a day and doing my best to tomcat about, I simply do not have the inclination to suffer such vehicles as you have listed; in other words I would not trade the aforementioned OBJECTIVE advantages of a V6 CamCord for the SUBJECTIVE advantages others are likely to mention (badge snobbery/legacy obsession, steering feel, V8 or V12 sound, "confidence," etc.).
What you say? Where's your automotive enthusiasm? I rest my enthusiasm primarily on the fact that I keep up on how cars work, and the employment of new and upcoming technologies. Further, having in past lives worked a fair amount on a multitude of vehicles, I now assuage my penchant for techie/hands-on stuff via my career. I thus get enough of an enthusiast's kick from a car that runs high 14s in the 1/4 mile, has decent brakes and handling, and otherwise can be driven 100,000+ miles without any headaches.
[/thread]
Some ppl have more than 1 car
Tave is right, this is corny, thx for playing.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 04:41:40 PM
So, sporty, since you asked, I'll answer. And I'm glad you did, because I've been thinking about this a bit plus such a topic is bound to spearhead vigorous yet level-headed, polite, non-diversionary debate. But no, sporty, I wouldn't take the chance. Why, you ask?
The average V6 CamCord of today is more often than not the better all around performer WRT such cars and others of similar ilk (i.e., has-been luxo barges) plus in addition the V6 CamCord will be FAR more reliable, FAR cheaper to maintain and repair, FAR better in MPG, and probably safer and even cheaper to insure.
As an active single who uses a car for hiking, skiing, camping, in addition to working 10 hours a day and doing my best to tomcat about, I simply do not have the inclination to suffer such vehicles as you have listed; in other words I would not trade the aforementioned OBJECTIVE advantages of a V6 CamCord for the SUBJECTIVE advantages others are likely to mention (badge snobbery/legacy obsession, steering feel, V8 or V12 sound, "confidence," etc.).
What you say? Where's your automotive enthusiasm? I rest my enthusiasm primarily on the fact that I keep up on how cars work, and the employment of new and upcoming technologies. Further, having in past lives worked a fair amount on a multitude of vehicles, I now assuage my penchant for techie/hands-on stuff via my career. I thus get enough of an enthusiast's kick from a car that runs high 14s in the 1/4 mile, has decent brakes and handling, and otherwise can be driven 100,000+ miles without any headaches.
[/thread]
That is the post you should have made first. We might disagree, but now it's phrased so that it applies to
you, and so that it's clear you are communicating what you know is your
opinion.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 13, 2009, 05:14:58 PM
Some ppl have more than 1 car
Tave is right, this is corny, thx for playing.
Honestly, I don't think I'd want one of these as a second car. I would have to DD the big 12 and have a fun car as the second car.
Quote from: Psilos on September 13, 2009, 05:20:27 PM
That is the post you should have made first. We might disagree, but now it's phrased so that it applies to you, and so that it's clear you are communicating what you know is your opinion.
Nope.
Both the warrant and sanction of my POV is 100% encapsulated in the second paragraph - LOL - remember, sporty asked the question; it's just that you guys spent more than five humorous pages ignoring it.
Either way, having all the rest of it consolidated should ratchet down the diversion, the
ad hominem, and the general malaise of Internetry mob attack mentality.
But we shall see.
Quote from: Psilos on September 13, 2009, 05:21:11 PM
Honestly, I don't think I'd want one of these as a second car. I would have to DD the big 12 and have a fun car as the second car.
:clap:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 13, 2009, 05:27:43 PM
Nope.
Both the warrant and sanction of my POV is 100% encapsulated in the second paragraph - LOL - remember, sporty asked the question; it's just that you guys spent more than five humorous pages ignoring it.
Either way, having all the rest of it consolidated should ratchet down the diversion, the ad hominem, and the general malaise of Internetry mob attack mentality.
But we shall see.
We didn't ign....
Oh, fuck it.
Quote from: Psilos on September 13, 2009, 05:21:11 PM
Honestly, I don't think I'd want one of these as a second car. I would have to DD the big 12 and have a fun car as the second car.
No way
You would cut down on maintenance & gas mileage significantly by making these night/weekend cars. If I were to have one of these as a DD I'd have to spend the $$$ on a pristine one.
Quote from: Psilos on September 13, 2009, 05:21:11 PM
Honestly, I don't think I'd want one of these as a second car. I would have to DD the big 12 and have a fun car as the second car.
Yeah, they're too much of a big pudding to be a weekend car. A weekend car should have three pedals and no roof.
This thread just keeps getting better.
Quote from: Raza on September 13, 2009, 05:47:43 PM
Yeah, they're too much of a big pudding to be a weekend car. A weekend car should have three pedals and no roof.
:ohyeah:
Actually, a roof is OK, but that's a detail. :lol:
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 13, 2009, 05:42:12 PM
No way
You would cut down on maintenance & gas mileage significantly by making these night/weekend cars. If I were to have one of these as a DD I'd have to spend the $$$ on a pristine one.
I could see that if you were into cruising and such...
No ways, dudes. If I had one of these 12-cylinder beats, I'd quad-turbocharge it and put drag radials on the back, but leave the rest stock, then go out street racing punks in their riced out Civics and Swifts.
Quote from: NACar on September 13, 2009, 06:18:48 PM
No ways, dudes. If I had one of these 12-cylinder beats, I'd quad-turbocharge it and put drag radials on the back, but leave the rest stock, then go out street racing punks in their riced out Civics and Swifts.
You'd lose.
Quote from: Raza link=topic=19878.msg1159043#msg1159043 date=1252887692
You'd lose.
Yeah, but it'd look cool.
Quote from: CaMIRO on September 13, 2009, 04:27:24 PM
In ten years, driving that same Camcord won't be quite so intelligent.
The Camcord becomes obsolete.
The respect it inspires is based chiefly on how efficiently it can move you from point to point.
Actually, I do hate to admit it, but owning a 10-year-old Camcord still makes more sense than owning a 10-year-old V12 S-class or 7-series...
...which of course totally does nothing to stop me from wanting those sexy beasts :wub:
Out of all these, I'll take an 850CSi.
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x89/edwardbayntun/gifs/SamJackson.gif)
Quote from: Tave on September 13, 2009, 03:47:32 PM
His argument never changed. The idea that the CamCord is objectively better in the given categories was offered as support for the idea that they are better choices for someone on a limited budget. Reliability, fuel economy, power, safety, etc... are all reasons to choose a new mainstream over an old exotic when you're worried about cash.
Objectively, my BMW 740 has been a financially smarter move than an '08 Camcord, speaking strictly dollars and cents. My buy-in was $7500. I've spent another $1000 in repairs over the last 2.5+ years. Outside of mods (which I don't count as they were not necessary, thus outside the scope of this particular discussion), The basic cost thus has been about $8500. A savings of over $16,000 vs his hypothetical '08 Camcord (that would have a warranty and zero repair costs). Now, at this current point, I could sell my car for $6000-7000 due to the condition I've kept it in (and since mods don't add to the value, as many people state, again they are not added into the cost). If I sold it now, that depreciation would bring the total cost of ownership for this time period to about $2000 max: sale price - (original purchase price + repairs) = TCO. The depreciation on an '08 Camcord over the same time period, while very good for cars of their class, would still be in the neighborhood of $4000-5000 or more, bringing meaning you'd still be out over $5k after getting your sale price.
Add in the savings in insurance, sales tax, etc, and the fuel savings of the newer Camcord (which is actually not that much in comparison: my car gets 30 mpg highway on regular fuel. the 750s regularly return 22-24 mpg highway) pales considerably. Even more if each car is financed instead of purchased outright, as the interest on the financing will be vastly more for a $25k+ car vs a $7500 car.
Simply put, even with a warranty and zero repair costs, an '08 Camcord will be a vastly more expensive and less budget friendly car objectively than my "exotic luxury car." And from direct experience, the same can be sad for the V12 version. So leaving out anything in steering feel, responsiveness, etc out of it,
objectively, these older cars
can make vastly more financial sense for someone on a budget. Like me.
Then when you add in all the other factors, like steering feel, road feel, style, etc, there is simply no contest.
-Do those repair costs reflect the work you did or just the parts?
-Does your example reflect of average cost of ownership of a BMW 7-Series or just yours?
-Most importantly, how does the equation balance when you substitute a new Accord for a used Accord of similar mileage and a condition as the BMW?
Some other things to consider:
Time spent in the shop costs you more than the dollar amount on the bill. Service networks for and/or mechanic garages that accept exotics are fewer and farther between than those that work on mainstream brands.
Quote from: Vinsanity on September 13, 2009, 06:56:03 PM
Actually, I do hate to admit it, but owning a 10-year-old Camcord still makes more sense than owning a 10-year-old V12 S-class or 7-series...
...which of course totally does nothing to stop me from wanting those sexy beasts :wub:
Depends on what you want a second car for. Lets compare and this is just one man's opinion.
10 year old Camry 69 Jaguar E-type
Still depreciating Appreciating
Not much fun to work on Fun to work on (hey, it's a hobby)
Will never turn heads or win a concours 4 time Jaguar Clubs of North America National Champion
and I've had people pull up beside me on the highway
with cameras clicking away (others enjoy seeing it on the road)
I've been invited to show my car at concours which gave me the opportunity
to meet people like Buzz Aldrin, Sterling Moss, Ed Hermann and Cliff Robertson.
Dated looks Usually in the top 5 on any best looking car of all time list
Cheap to insure Cheaper to insure (believe it or not, full coverage under $200/yr)
Cheap to operate Expensive to operate and maintain by comparison, 18-22 MPG, $6,000 to rebuild the engine
$7,000 for a bare metal respray, $3,000 for an interior kit. Am I upside down investment wise?
I have the receipts but never bothered to add them up, it doesn't matter to me.
Fun to Drive? Beats me, never driven one. Goes without saying.
Ownership experience: ?? Priceless. You only have one shot at life on this planet, why reduce your time here to a
set of equations?
My last post in this topic.
Quote from: Tave on September 14, 2009, 06:30:33 AM
-Do those repair costs reflect the work you did or just the parts?
My example doe just count parts cost. As labor is just spare time (unless it takes away from my real job and earning money, then it's time that would otherwise notbe makihng money, and as such is without monetary cost)
But, you have a choice whether or not to learn how to work on your own car and save that money. Manuals exist for all relatively modern cars. Most of the owners I know choose to work on their own cars
even if they've never worked on a car before in their lives, and realize the combined accomplishment of saving money AND completing a task. If you CHOOSE not to exercise that ability, then you CHOOSE to spend more, and thus like mods to the car, it's an ELECTIVE cost.
Quote-Does your example reflect of average cost of ownership of a BMW 7-Series or just yours?
Add about $2-3k over this time period for the average (most are less, due to working on the cars themselves, some are more, due to electing not to). Still a substantial savings over the cost of a new car, which is relly why most of us do it.
Quote-Most importantly, how does the equation balance when you substitute a new Accord for a used Accord of similar mileage and a condition as the BMW?
Most importantly? I'd say, with regards to THIS thread, LEAST importantly! While financially you can end up much better with the old Camcord (though it may still need repairs regularly. There's a reason Honda/Toyota independent garages have not gone out of business. The reputation isn't as true as a lot of people would like to admit), you then lose out on all the
other supposedly "objective" reasons that Cougs used to say the '08 was a better choice: the acceleration, the G forces, the braking, the 300 hp, the luxury features, etc. Plus the style. Now you're merely talking about a 10 year old economy sedan vs the top of the line luxury sport sedan of the same era. The is NO comparison at that point. Remember, the whole point of the Accord argument was that an '08 has all the features of an older luxury car AND
objectively better performance numbers on paper. Remove all that and the argument falls on it's face in a BIG way.
QuoteTime spent in the shop costs you more than the dollar amount on the bill.
True whether you are paying for that service or it's warranty work. And since most owners of the cars we are discussing here (older luxury sport sedans and coules) will not have them as their only car (I don't. No one I know does) any down time means nothing to earning power, as there is always another car to drive. That can't be said for most owners of a newer economy sedan.
QuoteService networks for and/or mechanic garages that accept exotics are fewer and farther between than those that work on mainstream brands.
We aren't talking about Ferraris here. German specialist shops are all over, and often in places you wouldn't expect for example, last weekend coming back from the ocean, out in rural Eastern MD, we passed a BMW/Mercedes specialist shop hours away from any metropolitan area. In fact, there were no Honda shops anywhere near it. This is also probably true in rural midwest. And with the advent of the internet, location is no longer important to the aquiring of parts, with parts for cars like these BMWs being readily available to any garage if you break down in left bumfukt as they are in the heart of a major metropolitan area.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4exPauh5X_w
/thread.
Seriously watch the video. Almost brought a tear to my eye.
^^^Good commercial
Oddly enough, I want to buy a 911 Turbo now. :huh:
Quote from: Byteme on September 14, 2009, 06:58:47 AM
Depends on what you want a second car for. Lets compare and this is just one man's opinion.
10 year old Camry 69 Jaguar E-type
Still depreciating Appreciating
Not much fun to work on Fun to work on (hey, it's a hobby)
Will never turn heads or win a concours 4 time Jaguar Clubs of North America National Champion
and I've had people pull up beside me on the highway
with cameras clicking away (others enjoy seeing it on the road)
I've been invited to show my car at concours which gave me the opportunity
to meet people like Buzz Aldrin, Sterling Moss, Ed Hermann and Cliff Robertson.
Dated looks Usually in the top 5 on any best looking car of all time list
Cheap to insure Cheaper to insure (believe it or not, full coverage under $200/yr)
Cheap to operate Expensive to operate and maintain by comparison, 18-22 MPG, $6,000 to rebuild the engine
$7,000 for a bare metal respray, $3,000 for an interior kit. Am I upside down investment wise?
I have the receipts but never bothered to add them up, it doesn't matter to me.
Fun to Drive? Beats me, never driven one. Goes without saying.
Ownership experience: ?? Priceless. You only have one shot at life on this planet, why reduce your time here to a
set of equations?
My last post in this topic.
Um, who would buy a 10 year old CamCord as a second car?
Quote from: GoCougs on September 14, 2009, 12:53:36 PM
Um, who would buy a 10 year old CamCord as a second car?
From where I sit I'd ask "Who'd buy one at all"?
Neither a Camry or Accord would be my first choice, new or used.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 14, 2009, 12:53:36 PM
Um, who would buy a 10 year old CamCord as a second car?
I believe plenty of people drive them around as beaters; it's commonplace in the s2ki community, for example
Quote from: cawimmer430 on September 14, 2009, 05:13:30 AM
(http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x89/edwardbayntun/gifs/SamJackson.gif)
:lol:
Quote from: Vinsanity on September 13, 2009, 06:56:03 PM
Actually, I do hate to admit it, but owning a 10-year-old Camcord still makes more sense than owning a 10-year-old V12 S-class or 7-series...
So does riding the bus or even a bicycle. But that doesn't mean anything in this conversation. ;)
A 10 year old Camcord MAY be reliable, but then again, it MAY not.
A 10 year old 750iL May be unreliable, then again, it MAY not.
And surprisingly a lot of the similar parts that can break cost very similar amounts of money.
BUT..
a 10 year old Camcord, unlike Coug's reasoning for buying a NEWER Camcord, will not give the luxury features or performance, and none of them will give the style, or steering/braking feel. it's only saving grace is that it costs less, but you can get that in any old economy car and still be better served by the bus.
So lets tell all the non-enthusiasts to ride the bus, and open up the motorways to those of us who want to be there and actually enjoy driving.
Quote from: ChrisV on September 14, 2009, 02:05:39 PM
A 10 year old Camcord MAY be reliable, but then again, it MAY not.
A 10 year old 750iL May be unreliable, then again, it MAY not.
Yeah, but then we get into statistical probabilities and stuff...
...and don't tell me that a 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.
Quote from: Vinsanity on September 14, 2009, 02:58:41 PM
Yeah, but then we get into statistical probabilities and stuff...
...and don't tell me that a 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.
A 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.
Quote from: NACar on September 14, 2009, 03:45:35 PM
A 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.
This is true, IMO, particularly in the sense that generally everything goes to hell right around that mileage anyway on a vehicle, plus if maintenance was spotty or you got a Camry with the oil sludging issues, yeah that could be a problem waiting to happen.
Quote from: NACar on September 14, 2009, 03:45:35 PM
A 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.
Sure, but can you say the same thing for the Swift vs. Audi V8Q?
Quote from: Vinsanity on September 14, 2009, 04:11:53 PM
Sure, but can you say the same thing for the Swift vs. Audi V8Q?
Actually, no. Without a rebuild, the Swift would have blown itself up long before 150k, while the V8Q was still going strong at 260k.
Quote from: Vinsanity on September 14, 2009, 02:58:41 PM
Yeah, but then we get into statistical probabilities and stuff...
...and don't tell me that a 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.
Wrong question methinks...what year Camry could you buy with the money you'd spend on a 1999 750...
Quote from: Vinsanity on September 14, 2009, 04:11:53 PM
Sure, but can you say the same thing for the Swift vs. Audi V8Q?
I'm sure the V8Q was solid... problems were prob more in the electrics
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 14, 2009, 07:05:35 PM
I'm sure the V8Q was solid... problems were prob more in the electrics
Every time it's brought up, you guys make wild assumptions about how much of a nightmare it was. It wasn't. The reason I got rid of it was because I wasn't going to have any opportunity to work on it myself, and paying someone else to do it was out of the question - the big problem was the brakes, but all the other stuff was pretty gee-whiz. Between that and the worthless Escort, I didn't have a car that was legal to drive. $120 inspection violations really start adding up after a while, plus it's annoying getting pulled over every day. So, I sucked it up and very sadly took the V8Q to an Audi guy and traded him for a Jetta, which passed inspection without too much fuss. Maybe I should post this story in my sig so people will stop being such jackholes about it. If I lived in a state that didn't have communist inspection laws,, or shit, if i just ahd a goddamn garage to work in, I would still be a V8Q owner. Fuck Maine. Fuck apartment living.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 14, 2009, 12:53:36 PM
Um, who would buy a 10 year old CamCord as a second car?
Our Camry is 9 years old. It's a second car.
10 year old cars aren't nearly as bad as they used to be
Quote from: NACar on September 14, 2009, 09:50:21 PM
10 year old cars aren't nearly as bad as they used to be
Mine are nice. :lol:
15 years here, doin' just fine...
I approve of V8 Quattros and V12 Jaguars, but do not approve of communists or objective subjective personal aggregate individual experience hearsay.
What was I on about again?
Quote from: NACar on September 14, 2009, 09:18:46 PM
Every time it's brought up, you guys make wild assumptions about how much of a nightmare it was. It wasn't. The reason I got rid of it was because I wasn't going to have any opportunity to work on it myself, and paying someone else to do it was out of the question - the big problem was the brakes, but all the other stuff was pretty gee-whiz. Between that and the worthless Escort, I didn't have a car that was legal to drive. $120 inspection violations really start adding up after a while, plus it's annoying getting pulled over every day. So, I sucked it up and very sadly took the V8Q to an Audi guy and traded him for a Jetta, which passed inspection without too much fuss. Maybe I should post this story in my sig so people will stop being such jackholes about it. If I lived in a state that didn't have communist inspection laws,, or shit, if i just ahd a goddamn garage to work in, I would still be a V8Q owner. Fuck Maine. Fuck apartment living.
Hey man I didn't know the story or assume you had made a bad purchase or w/e. Trust me I know how it is. If I didn't have a good friend as a mechanic I would not be able to keep my car either. Shit happens
Those V8Q brakes are killer. Calipers in the rotors? I guess that's the only way they could get them so big under those tiny ass wheels. Very cool cars though. Was yours stickshift?
Quote from: Vinsanity on September 14, 2009, 02:58:41 PM
Yeah, but then we get into statistical probabilities and stuff...
...and don't tell me that a 1999 Camry with 150k miles has the same probability of catastrophic mechanical failure as a 1999 BMW 750 with 150k miles.
From what I've seen, the failures on these cars tend to be a number of smaller items. No catastrophic mechanical failures, so no, the chances not greater that you'll have catastrophic mechanical failure. Now, failure of one of those myriad of luxury features, front suspension bushing wobbles, alternator... yes, there is a greater possibility. But you could get hit by a bus tomorrow. Highway accidents are of very high probability. Does that stop you from getting on the road?
You might speculate, postulate, and try to lay out probabilities, but look at my sig. I don't have just my experience to go by for these particular cars.
And you could run probablities all youy want, and still buy that Camry that the owner never changed the oil in and have sludge kill the engine 2000 miles after you buy it. Again, independant Honda and Toyota shops wouldn't be in business very long if these cars didn't break as much as anything else.
Oh, I've done a brake job on a 150k mile '99 Accord. Requires disassembling a lot of the front suspension and axle due to being FWD. it's time consuming and expensive; I also did a complete brake job on my 740i at about the same mileage. Cheap and fast, even with the Akebono Euro ceramic pads and Brembo OEM replacement rotors and pad sensors.
Quote from: NACar on September 14, 2009, 09:50:21 PM
10 year old cars aren't nearly as bad as they used to be
My 740 is 11 years old. 178k miles, and should be good to 300k. I just saw one for sale with 350k miles on it.
Quote from: sportyaccordy on September 15, 2009, 06:28:50 AM
Hey man I didn't know the story or assume you had made a bad purchase or w/e. Trust me I know how it is. If I didn't have a good friend as a mechanic I would not be able to keep my car either. Shit happens
Those V8Q brakes are killer. Calipers in the rotors? I guess that's the only way they could get them so big under those tiny ass wheels. Very cool cars though. Was yours stickshift?
No stickshift... if it had been a stickshift, that may have been incentive enough for me to go to some extremes to keep it.
As for the brakes, mine actually had a conversion to more conventional, but smaller and cheaper G60 brakes; but that had been done so long ago that nearly every component needed replacing. It's the government's fault for using so much salt on the roads. What's wrong with sand and studded tires? I'd rather they mandate studded tires and stop rotting out everyone's cars, but they don't care. They'd rather rot out people's brake lines every 3-5 years than slightly increase wear on the roads.
Quote from: J86 on September 14, 2009, 04:28:58 PM
Wrong question methinks...what year Camry could you buy with the money you'd spend on a 1999 750...
Looks like, after an auto trader search, you could get a 2005 4 cyl LE. Yeah, THAT's a comparable car. Fast as the 750? No. Handles as good? No. Brakes as good? maybe (though pedal feel may be poorer in the Toyota) Luxury features? No. Fuel mileage? yeah, the Camry will have the win there.
The question that started the thread was NOT gee, how does an older V12 car compare to a newer economy sedan.
Cougs started the comparo by stating a more expensive, new V6 Camcord would have the same or greater performance and luxury. If you move down to a much older, cheaper Camcord, to make prices be inline between the two, you lose all the performance/luxury advantage that was trotted out as the reason to buy a Camcord over a used luxury sport sedan. Which means comparing them becomes mind numbingly meaningless. Much like a boring, vanilla appliance is supposed to be.
Quote from: NACar on September 15, 2009, 07:43:20 AM
No stickshift... if it had been a stickshift, that may have been incentive enough for me to go to some extremes to keep it.
As for the brakes, mine actually had a conversion to more conventional, but smaller and cheaper G60 brakes; but that had been done so long ago that nearly every component needed replacing. It's the government's fault for using so much salt on the roads. What's wrong with sand and studded tires? I'd rather they mandate studded tires and stop rotting out everyone's cars, but they don't care. They'd rather rot out people's brake lines every 3-5 years than slightly increase wear on the roads.
Yeah, that's what I miss about living back in Washington State. non-rusty undercarriages on cars newer than 25-30 years old. Cars that are still daily drivers decades after they've ceased to exist on the east coast.
Quote from: ChrisV on September 15, 2009, 07:51:11 AM
Yeah, that's what I miss about living back in Washington State. non-rusty undercarriages on cars newer than 25-30 years old. Cars that are still daily drivers decades after they've ceased to exist on the east coast.
This is the car hell of America, and I can't wait to move out.
On a more interesting topic, are there noticeable performance and flexibility gains to be had in a standard E38 with the 5.4 V12 over the 4.4 V8?
Quote from: omicron on September 15, 2009, 07:59:17 AM
On a more interesting topic, are there noticeable performance and flexibility gains to be had in a standard E38 with the 5.4 V12 over the 4.4 V8?
Let's take a look at some actual figures from a year 2000 7-series:
4.4L 282 hp V8 5.4L 326 hp V12
Horsepower 282 @ 5400 RPM 326 @ 5000 RPM
Torque (lb-ft) 324 @ 3700 RPM 361 @ 3900 RPM
Awesomeness 501 @ 4200 RPM Infinity @ 1 RPM
Valves/Valve Configuration 32/DOHC 24/SOHC
Displacement (cc) 4398 5379
Bore X Stroke (in.) 3.62 X 3.26 3.35 X 3.11
Compression Ratio 10.0:1 10.0:1
Fuel Type/System Gas/SEFI Gas/SEFI
5-Speed Automatic Overdrive 15 / 21 mpg 13 / 20 mpg
As you can see, the V12 has Infinity Awesomeness at a very low RPM, while the peaky V8 only makes 501, and quite a bit higher in the rev range.
Quote from: NACar on September 15, 2009, 08:12:17 AM
Let's take a look at some actual figures from a year 2000 7-series:
4.4L 282 hp V8 5.4L 326 hp V12
Horsepower 282 @ 5400 RPM 326 @ 5000 RPM
Torque (lb-ft) 324 @ 3700 RPM 361 @ 1000 RPM
Awesomeness 501 @ 4200 RPM Infinity @ 1 RPM
Valves/Valve Configuration 32/DOHC 24/SOHC
Displacement (cc) 4398 5379
Bore X Stroke (in.) 3.62 X 3.26 3.35 X 3.11
Compression Ratio 10.0:1 10.0:1
Fuel Type/System Gas/SEFI Gas/SEFI
5-Speed Automatic Overdrive 15 / 21 mpg 13 / 20 mpg
As you can see, the V12 has Infinity Awesomeness at a very low RPM, while the peaky V8 only makes 501, and quite a bit higher in the rev range.
I've been looking for low-rpm awesomeness, and now it is clear that I can get infinity levels of awesomeness in a 750iL! Thank you so much.
My mistake; somehow the torque peak got changed from 3900 to 1000. :lol:
Quote from: NACar on September 15, 2009, 08:25:03 AM
My mistake; somehow the torque peak got changed from 3900 to 1000. :lol:
It is not a torque peak - it is a torque
plateau from 1000-6000rpm!
Quote from: omicron on September 15, 2009, 07:59:17 AM
On a more interesting topic, are there noticeable performance and flexibility gains to be had in a standard E38 with the 5.4 V12 over the 4.4 V8?
on a more serious note, the V8s actually had a bit more power than their rated power, especially from '99-01, after they got VANOS. The actual output was a bit over 300 hp, not the 282 rated hp, so their performance is pretty damn close to the V12 cars. And the V8 short wheelbase Sports also got a shorter final drive, so they were even quicker. So performance wise, on paper there isn't much of a reason to go with the V12. But the way the V12 delivers it's power is noticeably differnt, smoother, and more linear. And the huge number of things avaialble standard that are hard to find on a V8 car, or simply unavailable on one, makes starting with the V12 car often a better choice. Of course, real worrld fuel consumption is higher on the V12 cars. Best I've seen was a 24 mpg hwy average on a long trip with one, while the V8 cars regularly knock back 26-30 hwy mpg.
It is easier and cheaper to add things like the 6 speed manual and a supercharger to the V8 cars, however, and right now, the fastest E38 is a V8 car with a supercharger, 6 speed manual, and over 600 rwhp.
Quote from: NACar on September 11, 2009, 01:13:11 PM
$1200 for a V12 :wub:
http://maine.craigslist.org/cto/1367131794.html
I would never buy a car from a person who is so terrible at English.
Quote from: giant_mtb on September 15, 2009, 10:50:08 AM
I would never buy a car from a person who is so terrible at English.
I've got good deals from people who couldn't type. I've also worked with outstanding mechanics who couldn't type, spell, or use proper grammer when writing. I only go by condition of the car. And for the money, that looks like a good project.
Quote from: ChrisV on September 15, 2009, 07:39:36 AM
Oh, I've done a brake job on a 150k mile '99 Accord. Requires disassembling a lot of the front suspension and axle due to being FWD. it's time consuming and expensive; I also did a complete brake job on my 740i at about the same mileage. Cheap and fast, even with the Akebono Euro ceramic pads and Brembo OEM replacement rotors and pad sensors.
What did you change on the Accord? I can't see why you would need to take the axle or much of the front suspension off unless they mucked it up from my year (which is impossible as I know they did away with the hub over rotor design on mine). To do my pads I just remove the caliper, slide the piston back, grease shit up, throw the pads on and put the caliper back.
(off topic I guess).
The E38 looks really nice... I love a Sporty shorty
Quote from: Galaxy on September 14, 2009, 08:15:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4exPauh5X_w
/thread.
Seriously watch the video. Almost brought a tear to my eye.
That was beautiful.