Quote from: Catman on October 09, 2010, 04:02:58 PM
I've been down there to provide training to a PD near NY.  I admit I was pretty horrified what I found. 

New Jersey really is a cesspool.

there are idiots in all lines of work, but not always doing such harmful things leading to deadly consequences as in the case dave cites - guns and cars as weapons. there are also "show offs" and careless people running potentially dangerous equipment, like machinery, farming apparatus and such. what is different is our expectations of law enforcement officers (and firefighters, clergy, scout leaders, teachers...) - people we are taught from childhood that we can trust. a few bad apples... yes... or are there many more than a few? you look at the string of actions by officers beating allegedly innocent people or using excessive force and it can be damn scary. sadly, our good men and women in uniform frequently get lumped in with these unfit officials.

Quote from: dazzleman on October 09, 2010, 04:05:18 PM
Not a bad question..

Well, FWIW, I was drunker than him. 

Not the smartest decision, but people in their early 20s aren't known to make the best of decisions at 2 a.m. after clubs close down for the night. And considering he lives at the other side of the state and I was staying at his house, well... 

Quote from: TurboDan on October 09, 2010, 10:23:30 PM
Well, FWIW, I was drunker than him. 

Not the smartest decision, but people in their early 20s aren't known to make the best of decisions at 2 a.m. after clubs close down for the night. And considering he lives at the other side of the state and I was staying at his house, well... 

Didn't that nice Catholic school education you received teach you to behave properly, Dan?  I'm shocked!


Sometimes when I look back at myself and some of my friends, I wonder how we made it through that period alive.  One of my friends was so drunk when he was driving home once that he stopped his car and took a piss right out in the middle of the Palisades Parkway in New Jersey.  Luckily, it was very late and there were no other cars.  And he left his other drunk/passed out friends sitting inside the car, which was parked right in the middle of the highway, when he did this.

omg! the places i have pissed  ! lmao. when you gotta go... especially my college days at those crazy frat parties. now, coffee is the culprit. hehehe...

I don't believe Atomic ever got crazy...ever.

Quote from: dazzleman on October 10, 2010, 05:49:58 AM
Didn't that nice Catholic school education you received teach you to behave properly, Dan?  I'm shocked!

LOL. Our Yuengling-slinging, drunk, speeding Officer of the Year went there with me. 

Quote from: TBR on October 09, 2010, 10:33:14 AM
I rarely see a LEO who isn't speeding. You can deny or justify all you want, but it's pretty clear that many LEO's feel the traffic laws don't apply to them because they have a badge. In some situations is it justified? Certainly, but not 100% of the time. Hell, I have been in a state trooper's personal car (a fairly senior one at that) while he was going 90 in a 65, and he basically brushed it off by saying that if he got pulled over he would just flash his badge and be on his way. That's obviously not appropriate.

Depends are where they are.  In Michigan, for example, emergency vehicles are exempt from civil infraction laws.

Quote from: Atomic on October 09, 2010, 04:30:39 PM
there are idiots in all lines of work, but not always doing such harmful things leading to deadly consequences as in the case dave cites - guns and cars as weapons. there are also "show offs" and careless people running potentially dangerous equipment, like machinery, farming apparatus and such. what is different is our expectations of law enforcement officers (and firefighters, clergy, scout leaders, teachers...) - people we are taught from childhood that we can trust. a few bad apples... yes... or are there many more than a few? you look at the string of actions by officers beating allegedly innocent people or using excessive force and it can be damn scary. sadly, our good men and women in uniform frequently get lumped in with these unfit officials.

Allegedly beating allegedly innocents, and, allegedly using allegedly excessive force.

Both of those examples are subjective in many, if not most, cases.

Quote from: hounddog on October 10, 2010, 04:31:18 PM
Depends are where they are.  In Michigan, for example, emergency vehicles are exempt from civil infraction laws.

You miss the part where TBR said "trooper's personal car"? Unless personal vehicles suddenly became emergency vehicles?

Quote from: hounddog on October 10, 2010, 04:33:51 PM
Allegedly beating allegedly innocents, and, allegedly using allegedly excessive force.

Both of those examples are subjective in many, if not most, cases.

Why do you always seem to try to portray this image of the police being a perfect, never-out-of-line, etc group of human beings? If you honestly think that, you're nuts.

Quote from: SVT666 on October 10, 2010, 09:31:11 AM
I don't believe Atomic ever got crazy...ever.

I agree.

Quote from: TurboDan on October 10, 2010, 10:11:48 AM
LOL. Our Yuengling-slinging, drunk, speeding Officer of the Year went there with me. 

  Those schools are falling down on the job.  They've gone soft, which is why they're now turning out hooligans like you and your friend...

Quote from: SVT_Power on October 10, 2010, 05:18:24 PMWhy do you always seem to try to portray this image of the police being a perfect, never-out-of-line, etc group of human beings? If you honestly think that, you're nuts.

I believe Tony's portrayal of the police isn't one of universal innocence but one of having the same standard of innocence as the average citizen. Because of their positions, police officers are generally assumed guilty in any implication of wrongdoing.

Careful, Bing, you may confuse him by using logic.  


SVT, I do not portray the police as if they are some mystic altruistic power.  I do, however, endevour to require people, like yourself, to hold the police to a similar standard that every other citizen enjoys; Innocent until proven guilty.

The fact is that police are generally paid lower than other public sector jobs such as teacher, DPW, firemen, etc.  So, we have historically tried to "help a brother out" and give passes in regards to speed.

Right or wrong, that will probably not end anytime soon. 

Why?  you ask? 

We never know who we might end up needing help from in the near or distant future.  Why go to intentional lengths to piss off someone you may require to save your life someday? 

Most police also do not write doctors, nurses, polite lawyers, firemen and EMS(generally), and often times teachers. 
Why?  Because we may need their help at some point in the near or distant future.

It sucks that we would have to soft hand people to elicit assistance, but in the real world, that is just how it is.

You might need my help, too, if I find you all stroked out in the beer aisle.

Quote from: hounddog on October 10, 2010, 07:15:11 PM
Most police also do not write doctors, nurses, polite lawyers, firemen and EMS(generally), and often times teachers. 
Why?  Because we may need their help at some point in the near or distant future.

It sucks that we would have to soft hand people to elicit assistance, but in the real world, that is just how it is.

it also sucks that people (not just cops) treat others based on the favors they would be able to return in the future.

Quote from: hounddog on October 10, 2010, 07:15:11 PM
Most police also do not write doctors, nurses, polite lawyers, firemen and EMS(generally), and often times teachers. 
Why?  Because we may need their help at some point in the near or distant future.

The State Police-issued NJ Press ID dashboard placard tends to work to one's advantage as well, so I hear. 

Quote from: hounddog on October 10, 2010, 07:15:11 PM
Most police also do not write doctors, nurses, polite lawyers, firemen and EMS(generally), and often times teachers. 
Why?  Because we may need their help at some point in the near or distant future.

It sucks that we would have to soft hand people to elicit assistance, but in the real world, that is just how it is.

Bullshit. If that logic really worked, no one would get speeding tickets. At some point, we need everybody.

What is the justification for speeding on a "mid-priority" call? If lights and sirens are not necessary, then speeding isn't either

Quote from: hounddog on October 10, 2010, 07:15:11 PM


The fact is that police are generally paid lower than other public sector jobs such as teacher, DPW, firemen, etc.  So, we have historically tried to "help a brother out" and give passes in regards to speed.

Right or wrong, that will probably not end anytime soon. 

Why?  you ask? 

We never know who we might end up needing help from in the near or distant future.  Why go to intentional lengths to piss off someone you may require to save your life someday? 

For lower pay part, I don't know if I would agree since I don't know any teachers, fireman, EMS that would be making 6 figures.

Quote
Most police also do not write doctors, nurses, polite lawyers, firemen and EMS(generally), and often times teachers. 
Why?  Because we may need their help at some point in the near or distant future.

It sucks that we would have to soft hand people to elicit assistance, but in the real world, that is just how it is.

What about relatives and distant relatives and anyone related to the officer?  Why do those people get a freeby? 

Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on October 11, 2010, 08:50:29 AM
What is the justification for speeding on a "mid-priority" call? If lights and sirens are not necessary, then speeding isn't either

The explaination I've often heard is, the officers are trained to drive at a higher speed than we are.  And their CVs are more capable of driving at a higher rate of speed than our civilian vehicles.  So they can do it while we can't...

Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on October 11, 2010, 08:50:29 AMWhat is the justification for speeding on a "mid-priority" call? If lights and sirens are not necessary, then speeding isn't either

There are non-emergency calls that require a rapid response but don't require an all-out emergency response. Let's say you have a non-emergency call in progress (somebody is currently busting out the windows of your car in front of your house with a baseball bat, maybe). A more rapid response would clearly be justified because it's an in-progress call, but it isn't an emergency. For that, I would respond above the speed limit, but I wouldn't necessarily go busting through intersections lights and sirens. There are also emergency calls that require a silent/dark approach for tactical reasons.

Quote from: NomisR on October 11, 2010, 10:50:37 AM
The explaination I've often heard is, the officers are trained to drive at a higher speed than we are.  And their CVs are more capable of driving at a higher rate of speed than our civilian vehicles.  So they can do it while we can't...

I can believe the officer training, but as far as their cars being more capable? Come on... I bet a Corolla is just as capable of sustaining high speeds; they just don't use them because Corollas suck at doing pit maneuvers.

Quote from: dazzleman on October 09, 2010, 04:05:33 PM
New Jersey really is a cesspool.

You're so negative.

Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on October 11, 2010, 02:36:42 PM
You're so negative.

No, I'm just a realist.  New Jersey's political and governmental functions are a cesspool of corruption, organized crime, and unconscionable waste of taxpayer money.  That's just a fact.

Quote from: bing_oh on October 11, 2010, 12:11:40 PM
There are non-emergency calls that require a rapid response but don't require an all-out emergency response. Let's say you have a non-emergency call in progress (somebody is currently busting out the windows of your car in front of your house with a baseball bat, maybe). A more rapid response would clearly be justified because it's an in-progress call, but it isn't an emergency. For that, I would respond above the speed limit, but I wouldn't necessarily go busting through intersections lights and sirens. There are also emergency calls that require a silent/dark approach for tactical reasons.

Which is definitely different than somebody beating out your windows of you car while you are in the car. But what if they are headed towards the house while you are in it. And they have a rubber chicken, whip cream and weed eater.

Quote from: Colonel Cadillac on October 11, 2010, 08:50:29 AM
What is the justification for speeding on a "mid-priority" call? If lights and sirens are not necessary, then speeding isn't either

If the cop had their lights and such on, you would have to pull over and wait for them to pass. If they're just speeding, then they just go past you. Which would you rather?

Quote from: NomisR on October 11, 2010, 10:49:00 AM
For lower pay part, I don't know if I would agree since I don't know any teachers, fireman, EMS that would be making 6 figures.

You HAVE to be joking. 

The average pay for a patrolman in this country is about $44,000 which is a very long ways from six figures.  Teachers generally make about 15% more than police, while fire/EMS make about 10% more. 

Even the average DPW (street departments) worker makes more and is less likely to be laid off.

QuoteWhat about relatives and distant relatives and anyone related to the officer?  Why do those people get a freeby? 

Immediate relatives such as the wife?  I think the answer should be glaringly obvious.

As for the others; who says they do? 

I have never heard of cousins or uncles getting a pass, children often do not either. 

I think you have very bad information.

Quote from: CALL_911 on October 11, 2010, 12:24:30 AM
Bullshit. If that logic really worked, no one would get speeding tickets. At some point, we need everybody.

That is a childs answer, using a childs logic.