Quote from: Submariner on August 11, 2014, 11:31:19 AM
172 days?  That's rough.

Y buy this over a comparable BMW? They are good cars but that question looms heavy w/no answer.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 07, 2014, 11:27:56 AM
GM needs to fire their analysts and hire me. I will give them a discount rate and recommend them a real winner, down to the milimeter.

I bet they prefer analysts who can spell millimeter correctly. 

Looks better, drives better.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 11, 2014, 11:40:32 AM
Y buy this over a comparable BMW? They are good cars but that question looms heavy w/no answer.

Why buy any car other than the best in class?

Quote from: hotrodalex on August 11, 2014, 01:35:06 PM
Why buy any car other than the best in class?

There's no clear winner in the class. But for the average buyer in the segment, the ATS/CTS compromised on what mattered to go after what didn't. Average person wants a big back seat, easy interface, refined base engine... not razor sharp handling and Brembo brakes....

Plus its competitions' problems are either minor or fixable... BMW's weak handling can be fixed with some springs and shocks.... IS' look is in the eye of the beholder... etc. No easy fix for ATS' small back seat or CUE.

The IS's back seat is just as small as the ATS. Actually, felt noticeably smaller to me.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 11, 2014, 01:59:20 PM
There's no clear winner in the class. But for the average buyer in the segment, the ATS/CTS compromised on what mattered to go after what didn't. Average person wants a big back seat, easy interface, refined base engine... not razor sharp handling and Brembo brakes....

Plus its competitions' problems are either minor or fixable... BMW's weak handling can be fixed with some springs and shocks.... IS' look is in the eye of the beholder... etc. No easy fix for ATS' small back seat or CUE.

CUE is a biggie.  That's one thing I like about my G37.  The interface is knobs and buttons.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 11, 2014, 01:59:20 PM
BMW's weak handling can be fixed with some springs and shocks

The vast majority of people do NOT go modding their car after buying it....

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on August 12, 2014, 05:25:06 AM
The vast majority of people do NOT go modding their car after buying it....

Vast majority of 3 buyers won't miss the lost handling prowess in the first place

But if it was me and I was shopping in the segment, the 3 is the clear winner. Costs a little more, but the fact that it pairs its 6 with a stick, and can yield another ~100 crank HP for ~$500 out of the box kind of makes it a no brainer for my inner backwards cap ricer child.

Cadillac needs to compete at every level, they need the ATS.  The problem is the price more than anything else.  Secondary is interior packaging and the need for better, more intuitive technology.   

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 12, 2014, 05:57:07 AM
Vast majority of 3 buyers won't miss the lost handling prowess in the first place

But if it was me and I was shopping in the segment, the 3 is the clear winner. Costs a little more, but the fact that it pairs its 6 with a stick, and can yield another ~100 crank HP for ~$500 out of the box kind of makes it a no brainer for my inner backwards cap ricer child.

I don't think the manual transmission should be a consideration for Cadillac, at least in the short term.

Manual transmission might get them an extra 5 cars sold.

Quote from: hotrodalex on August 12, 2014, 11:56:17 AM
Manual transmission might get them an extra 5 cars sold.

Quote from: Catman on August 12, 2014, 10:59:12 AM
I don't think the manual transmission should be a consideration for Cadillac, at least in the short term.

Never said the MT with the 6 would yield em big sales. Just that it's why of all the cars in the segment, the 3 is probably the only one I would buy... used.

Quote from: Catman on August 12, 2014, 10:57:44 AM
Cadillac needs to compete at every level, they need the ATS.  The problem is the price more than anything else.  Secondary is interior packaging and the need for better, more intuitive technology.   

The #s dont agree. Lexus biggest sellers are the ES and RX... i.e. the only cars in their lineup that don't go head to head with the Germans (and aren't redundant and terrible like the CT/HS). The next big thing with cars is hybrid/plug in shit... would have been smarter for GM to make a "Super Volt" and hopefully drop the cost through planned higher volume than to try and make the 3 fighter they should have made 10 yrs ago.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 12, 2014, 02:44:23 PM
Never said the MT with the 6 would yield em big sales. Just that it's why of all the cars in the segment, the 3 is probably the only one I would buy... used.
The #s dont agree. Lexus biggest sellers are the ES and RX... i.e. the only cars in their lineup that don't go head to head with the Germans (and aren't redundant and terrible like the CT/HS). The next big thing with cars is hybrid/plug in shit... would have been smarter for GM to make a "Super Volt" and hopefully drop the cost through planned higher volume than to try and make the 3 fighter they should have made 10 yrs ago.

Isn't that the ELR? My only problem with that car is price. 

Lol the ELR has like 400+ days of inventory.

Also the transaction prices of comparable ATS' are quite a bit lower than the 3er.

Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 12, 2014, 03:02:29 PM
Isn't that the ELR? My only problem with that car is price. 

No the ELR is just an overpriced Volt

I'm talking something 4 doors, 5 seats, way more power/performance than the Volt. Prob just not possible at the moment, IDK.

An ATS pulled out to pass me today, and two things really surprised me about it. One, was that a barely recognized it in the mirror (Cadillacs should not blend in so readily), and the other was the disconcerting amount of black smoke coming out of the tailpipe as the driver put the hammer down.

Quote from: Catman on August 12, 2014, 10:57:44 AM
Cadillac needs to compete at every level, they need the ATS.  The problem is the price more than anything else.  Secondary is interior packaging and the need for better, more intuitive technology.   

  GM can't get their heads around that they can't sell their luxury cars with the goal of making 10 thousand dollars per vehicle like they do on their Tahoes/Escalades.  They just can't admit it and its killing them.  They can't blame pension/health care costs either since they've been bailed out and restructured.  I know a bunch of entry level BMW/Merc/Audi owners.  Cadillac wasn't even on their radar.  You gotta be a GM fanboy to get an ATS over a Bimmer and GM fanboys are more inclined to get a loaded V8 Camaro than a wannabe German taut sports sedan. 

Quote from: veeman on August 12, 2014, 05:44:47 PM
  GM can't get their heads around that they can't sell their luxury cars with the goal of making 10 thousand dollars per vehicle like they do on their Tahoes/Escalades.  They just can't admit it and its killing them.  They can't blame pension/health care costs either since they've been bailed out and restructured.  I know a bunch of entry level BMW/Merc/Audi owners.  Cadillac wasn't even on their radar.  You gotta be a GM fanboy to get an ATS over a Bimmer and GM fanboys are more inclined to get a loaded V8 Camaro than a wannabe German taut sports sedan.

I think u just talked past dude's post. I agree though. GM has to offer something others don't to move metal, not make a carbon copy of cars that sell largely on brand image.

If Cadillac built the Ciel, they would sell a fuck ton of them. I would find a used a one a few years down the road. Cadillac needs to throw caution to the wind and build a full slate of cars that teenagers put posters of on their walls. 

Oh and Cadillac needs to revert back to the old badge because the new one is terrible.

Quote from: SVT666 on August 12, 2014, 08:47:29 PM
If Cadillac built the Ciel, they would sell a fuck ton of them. I would find a used a one a few years down the road. Cadillac needs to throw caution to the wind and build a full slate of cars that teenagers put posters of on their walls. 

Oh and Cadillac needs to revert back to the old badge because the new one is terrible.

Yeah, the new badge isn't an improvement and the positioning on the grill is dumb.

Quote from: SVT666 on August 12, 2014, 08:47:29 PM
If Cadillac built the Ciel, they would sell a fuck ton of them. I would find a used a one a few years down the road. Cadillac needs to throw caution to the wind and build a full slate of cars that teenagers put posters of on their walls. 

Oh and Cadillac needs to revert back to the old badge because the new one is terrible.

Convertibles are a dying breed, but I agree with the general point that Caddy needs to build cars that make peoples' jaws drop

Germany is all about that modest austerity bullshit.... this is why folks debadge or even downbadge their V12 Benzes there. Over here we are anything but modest, and a domestic luxury car manufacturer should reflect that.

Lincoln should do the same thing. Pillarless suicide doors across the lineup. They can sell it as an accessibility feature. They need a modern day '67 Continental real bad.

Quote from: 68_427 on August 12, 2014, 03:08:25 PM
Lol the ELR has like 400+ days of inventory.

Also the transaction prices of comparable ATS' are quite a bit lower than the 3er.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 12, 2014, 04:50:18 PM
No the ELR is just an overpriced Volt

I'm talking something 4 doors, 5 seats, way more power/performance than the Volt. Prob just not possible at the moment, IDK.

FWIW I know the ELR is an overpriced Volt. That was kind of my point. I like the Volt, mechanically, but think the ELR looks way better. I would happily pay extra for an ELR (compared to a Volt), but GM is charging Tesla prices for the  ELR, which is why I said:

QuoteMy only problem with that car is price.

A great uncle of mine had a humongous black 60's Cadillac. Now that was luxury!

Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 14, 2014, 07:08:58 AM

FWIW I know the ELR is an overpriced Volt. That was kind of my point. I like the Volt, mechanically, but think the ELR looks way better. I would happily pay extra for an ELR (compared to a Volt), but GM is charging Tesla prices for the  ELR, which is why I said:

I think the ELR looks sexy as hell.  Maybe I will pick one up in a few years for Civic prices.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 11, 2014, 11:40:32 AM
Y buy this over a comparable BMW? They are good cars but that question looms heavy w/no answer.

It's a fair point. 

The original CTS stood out from the crowd, offered good dynamics and offered 5er space for 3 series money.  There was definite value for customers. 

But while the new ATS looks good, it's a bit bland and there really aren't any defining characteristics that make it an exciting choice for customers.  It's a good drive, but so is the 3-er and the IS.  It's decent inside, but the C-class is a good deal nicer (especially the new one).  And of course, it doesn't have a three pointed star, a blue or white roundel or four interlocking rings on the grill, and that matters. 

Saw a black ATS yesterday.

Quote from: Submariner on August 16, 2014, 09:55:27 AM
It's a fair point. 

The original CTS stood out from the crowd, offered good dynamics and offered 5er space for 3 series money.  There was definite value for customers. 

But while the new ATS looks good, it's a bit bland and there really aren't any defining characteristics that make it an exciting choice for customers.  It's a good drive, but so is the 3-er and the IS.  It's decent inside, but the C-class is a good deal nicer (especially the new one).  And of course, it doesn't have a three pointed star, a blue or white roundel or four interlocking rings on the grill, and that matters.

And it costs exactly the same as the most expensive offerings in the segment. It's a no go as is... its not fair but Caddy has to offer more car for the money to compete. Real shame as again these are damn good cars. But good is not good enough in this super competitive market.

With sales on the decline, General Motors' Cadillac division is devising new pricing a marketing strategies for its CTS sedan.

Launched late last year, critics have largely lauded the Cadillac CTS for its sharp handling, slick styling and well-appointed interior, but buyers have balked at a starting price that is $6,000 more than the outgoing model. As a result, CTS sales are down about 6 percent this year while the overall luxury market is up by 8 percent.

"While it may have been a terrific car, it may not have been perceived as having earned its stripes for that kind of pricing against the Germans," Autotrader senior analyst Michelle Krebs told Automotive News. "Cadillac has just not earned its way to charge the kind of premium that the Germans can get."

Cadillac isn't interested in lower the CTS' price, but the company is considering adding more standard content or offering some features like heated seats as stand-alone options.

"These are things that we can do relatively quickly," Uwe Ellinghaus, Cadillac's chief marketing officer, said.

Ellinghaus added that Cadillac will also be changing its marketing message early next year. Rather than comparing the brand to its German competitors, Cadillac will instead focus on its American roots.

"We definitely cannot build a brand on being as good as," Ellinghaus said. "We are not German -- and that's a good thing. We are American. We need to build this brand on what differentiates Cadillac from our German competitors."