I wonder if legal payouts for the power shift transmission hurt Ford.

With payouts and warranty replacements, that must have had to eat into Focus and Fiesta profitability.

Well it all ultimately comes out of the same pot. I don't think 2017 Focus losses count against 2018 Focus profits. It sounded like they were moving to a regular 8AT, but now who knows.

One problem with the mainstream sedans is that they're all so huge now. The "midsizers" are all full-size now. My mom got a Cruze that has the same interior space as her old Mazda6. The Malibu was out of the question because of its size.

Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 26, 2018, 02:31:03 PM
One problem with the mainstream sedans is that they're all so huge now. The "midsizers" are all full-size now. My mom got a Cruze that has the same interior space as her old Mazda6. The Malibu was out of the question because of its size.

Couldn't agree more. I don't feel like my Golf is a small car in the slightest. I feel like the current A3/S3 is about the same size as the A4/S4 from 3 generations ago. I think someone here posted a picture of a newish Civic (last gen) next to an Accord from the early 90's and the Civic appeared to be the larger car.

Quote from: CaminoRacer on April 26, 2018, 02:31:03 PM
One problem with the mainstream sedans is that they're all so huge now. The "midsizers" are all full-size now. My mom got a Cruze that has the same interior space as her old Mazda6. The Malibu was out of the question because of its size.

Agreed. Same thing goes for trucks. Those new Colo-Canyons are huge.

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 26, 2018, 01:44:04 PM
I don't know much about trucks, but a 5,000lb brick that can tow like 8000lbs, return 20MPG and run a low 14 second quarter mile (not at the same time- yet ) is not a "lazy design". Nor is something that is recommended by CR of "questionable quality".

Get worse how? Everyone already has an entry. More importantly Ford helped create the segment, and has built brand equity there with its continued presence. This shows in the sales and margins it has there.

As for "producing desirable vehicles"... the F150 has been the top selling vehicle in the country for years if not decades, with skyrocketing ATPs. And I'd hardly call the Focus/Fusion's competition "desirable". A mainstream Toyota is about as desirable as a washing machine. Desirability has nothing to do with success in the mainstream market.

The truck market design wise has been completely stagnant for 20+ years.  There is no real competition from outside of Detroit in the full size market.  All it is year after year is bigger and more obnoxious design.

The more everyone runs to the SUV market the more Ford will need to compete on design and execution.  "Cut and run" strategy is not going to work in the future when it's now your only market.  They need to find a way to distinguish their brand/cars and their inability to do so is exactly why they have to sell cars for a loss. 

Nothing about leaving the car segment fixes the above. 

Quote from: r0tor on April 26, 2018, 11:35:07 AM
$187k for the gt3rs

I was talking about the GT2rs.
https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/911-gt2-rs/911-gt2-rs/

Hopefully Enterprise will buy more Hyundai's and Nissan's then. If I never have to work on another Ford car again I'll be a happy man.

Quote from: r0tor on April 26, 2018, 03:06:42 PM
The truck market design wise has been completely stagnant for 20+ years.  There is no real competition from outside of Detroit in the full size market.  All it is year after year is bigger and more obnoxious design.

Stagnant by what metrics exactly? What don't trucks do better today than 20 years ago?

Quote from: r0tor on April 26, 2018, 03:06:42 PMThe more everyone runs to the SUV market the more Ford will need to compete on design and execution.  "Cut and run" strategy is not going to work in the future when it's now your only market.  They need to find a way to distinguish their brand/cars and their inability to do so is exactly why they have to sell cars for a loss.

"The more everyone runs to the SUV market"? What mainstream automaker doesn't have a 2 and 3 row crossover? "Distignuish their brand/cars"? What is distinguishable about Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans etc. (i.e. the volume players)?

Quote from: r0tor on April 26, 2018, 03:06:42 PM
Nothing about leaving the car segment fixes the above.

Nothing above reflects reality or has to do with Ford's problems.

Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on April 26, 2018, 03:15:38 PM
I was talking about the GT2rs.
https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/911-gt2-rs/911-gt2-rs/

My point was the 3 also decimates the Vette

I wonder if the Focus Active will be classified as a light truck

Actually, there have been significant improvements in light truck design in the last few years, mostly relating to fuel efficiency and safety.
But does everybody need a truck or SUV?
Of course not. The SUV/CUV thing is a fad- cars will return.

Quote from: shp4man on April 27, 2018, 05:17:16 PM

Actually, there have been significant improvements in light truck design in the last few years, mostly relating to fuel efficiency and safety.
But does everybody need a truck or SUV?
Of course not. The SUV/CUV thing is a fad- cars will return.

Passenger cars have been in decline since the mid 80s. How many decades does it take to make it not a fad?

Quote from: shp4man on April 27, 2018, 05:17:16 PM
Actually, there have been significant improvements in light truck design in the last few years, mostly relating to fuel efficiency and safety.
But does everybody need a truck or SUV?
Of course not. The SUV/CUV thing is a fad- cars will return.

shippy's great great grandpa in 191: "the car thing is a fad- horses will return" 

New car purchases are rarely based on need. If they were, average transaction prices would be a lot lower.

Out of the top-6 best selling Fords, 3 are sedans and none is the Mustang.

Yes, SUVs have grown in market share, but sedans still sell in huge numbers, and there is no reason to think the category will ever go away completely.

I had this thought some time ago, and now it seems further reinforced.  With increased emphasis on "crossover" tall wagons/hatches, it feels to me like passenger vehicle design is reverting back to the sort of basic vehicle shapes we had in the late 1930s through 1940s.  Taller, slab-sided vehicles with upright seating positions.  Basically, modern interpretations of this:



One of my least favorite eras of automotive styling...

Quote from: Tave on April 28, 2018, 06:54:59 AM

Out of the top-6 best selling Fords, 3 are sedans and none is the Mustang.

Yes, SUVs have grown in market share, but sedans still sell in huge numbers, and there is no reason to think the category will ever go away completely.

Did anyone say the category would go away completely?

What has been said is Ford (and GM and Chrysler) doesn't seem capable of consistently making money in the segment, and hasn't for some time.  If they can't do so at a ~17mm SAAR what does that say for their through the cycle returns? 

Quote from: Lebowski on April 28, 2018, 07:33:43 AM

Did anyone say the category would go away completely?

Yes, sporty said "no one buys sedans anymore" or some variation thereof about twenty times in this thread.

QuoteWhat has been said is Ford (and GM and Chrysler) doesn't seem capable of consistently making money in the segment, and hasn't for some time.  If they can't do so at a ~17mm SAAR what does that say for their through the cycle returns?

If Ford is failing to make money selling cars, the solution is to fix that problem, not to stop selling cars, because selling cars is Ford's raison d'etre.

We've seen this played out before: in the 90s Ford devoted all its energy into the Explorer and F-Series, failed to develop an adequate successor to the Taurus, dragged its feet on bringing over the Mondeo until it was already outdated, etc... Continuing to ignore this market is doubling-down on the type of bad thinking that put them in this situation. It also doesn't help that Ford's competitors received massive gov't bailouts 10-years ago and we're starting to see the ripples of that intervention play out in the marketplace.

Quote from: Tave on April 28, 2018, 08:56:44 AM

Yes, sporty said "no one buys sedans anymore" or some variation thereof about twenty times in this thread.

I don't think he meant literally, not one car will be sold.

Quote

If Ford is failing to make money selling cars, the solution is to fix that problem, not to stop selling cars, because selling cars is Ford's raison d'etre.

Do you think they just haven't tried?  Do you think GM and Chrysler just haven't tried?  The D3 seem consistently unable to be profitable in passenger cars. Even the players that are profitable, exceptionally well run companies like Toyota with structural advantages compared to the D3, have low margins in cars and in some cases lose money in small cars.

Raison d'etre according to who, you?  Why not cut to the chase and say you'd have their raison d'etre be to consistently lose money? 

Quote

We've seen this played out before: in the 90s Ford devoted all its energy into the Explorer and F-Series, failed to develop an adequate successor to the Taurus, dragged its feet on bringing over the Mondeo until it was already outdated, etc... Continuing to ignore this market is doubling-down on the type of bad thinking that put them in this situation. It also doesn't help that Ford's competitors received massive gov't bailouts 10-years ago and we're starting to see the ripples of that intervention play out in the marketplace.

Exiting a market is not the same thing as competing in that market unsuccessfully, so no, we haven't seen this before at least not for F.  Plus the SUV/CUV market is a lot different today than then.

It can be summed up like this (and nothing I've said contradicts this)

Ford exists to make money
Ford cannot make money on sedans in the US right now

Ergo,

Ford should probably not sell sedans in the US right now.

All the arguments I've heard against this are either emotional ("I hate crossovers " ) or demonstrably false ("expensive gas makes people avoid high riders!"). Ford is in uncharted territory. Let's sit back and see what happens.

Quote from: MX793 on April 28, 2018, 07:05:26 AM
I had this thought some time ago, and now it seems further reinforced.  With increased emphasis on "crossover" tall wagons/hatches, it feels to me like passenger vehicle design is reverting back to the sort of basic vehicle shapes we had in the late 1930s through 1940s.  Taller, slab-sided vehicles with upright seating positions.  Basically, modern interpretations of this:



One of my least favorite eras of automotive styling...

Nice old Chevy....'38 was a good year.   

Quote from: shp4man on April 28, 2018, 03:22:05 PM
Nice old Chevy....'38 was a good year.   

Good year? For who, lol. Were you even alive?

This is really kind of a bold, crazy thing to do it seems, but if they've tried for this long and can't seem to make money doing it, I don't blame them. I'm not too heart broken. Nothing they made that they're cancelling really interested me.

Honestly, I'm shocked Toyota hasn't taken over the truck market at this point. I like the tundra a lot, just surprised the big 3 still own this category. I figured Toyota would make bigger advances here than they have.

Here is the truck market, in a nutshell:



Toyota went after minds in a market that thinks with (truck) nuts

The Tundra isn't as good as the GM, Ford, or even the Chrysler.

Honestly....why is the Mustang still around?


It's a bespoke platform, and Ford incentives the hell out of it to get it to move.



The Fiesta, Focus, and Fusion all have chassis and parts commonalities with their more profitable CUV bretheren. There's no Mustang CUV. The high-dollar Mustangs are probably more profitable, but I suspect a 2.3L or 3.7L Mustang is also pretty low.



Yet and still: Ford offers a lot of incentives in Europe, too. Although in the EU, the Focus and the Fiesta are in the top 10 best sellers, 2017's sales numbers were only ~500K. The EU Mondeo only sold 68K last year.


We've been selling as many car shaped things (and bigger cars like the Fusion) roughly as Europe (not counting the umpteen MPV's Ford has). Yet, Ford axed our product line. But Ford doesn't have Lincoln, or trucks like the F150 that sell in droves in the European market.

Well I'll be a son of a gun. Fusions are 25% off.... and so are the new Ecoboost Mustangs. From multiple dealers. Ford is in bad shape

Thing is though - as families grow and change, a lot of people like staying within brands.


Will Focus owners, who likely will now have shit residuals, will they want to take a look at an Escape?


Would older people who don't want an Edge anymore, there's no Fusion or Focus for them to look at?


I personally loved the Fiesta, despite it's flaws. Ford doesn't make a vehicle I want anymore.


I can't see how the UAW affected this either; the Fusion was made in MI, but the Fiesta and Focus were imported from Mexico. What about Mexico? Are they gonna concede Latin America, too? (Likely)


I don't see how an EU 1.25L Fiesta Studio 3-door hatch is somehow profitable. Ford sells 250K a year of the Fiesta and Focus, and I can't picture the EU market being somehow more profitable.






----------------------------



I also wonder if Ford's reluctance to modular platforms also is a big problem. The latest EU Fiesta is a heavy restyle of the current US one, which in turn was a big restyle of the car introduced in (2002?).


The Focus III's chassis I think is a heavy refresh of the Focus II, which in turn was the Focus I's chassis reworked with input from Volvo and Mazda. In fact, the 5MT in the 2.0L Focus is actually the same exact transmission from the 2000 MK1 ZETEC Focus.


VW's MQB and MLB architecture is simple and easy to make varying body shapes around a set of easily interchangable parts. Honda, Toyota, PSA, and even GM are going this way. Ford? They have a few things, and they supposedly have a big car unibody chassis for the next Explorer and Lincoln Aviator, but I haven't seen or heard them developing an MQB or TNGA style modular chassis for Small to Medium sized cars.

Man, Ford isn't even doing all that well in Mexico, either. Only moved 81K units last year.


Compared to Nissan moving 365K units.

Guess what, Canadians!


Ya'll won't even be getting the Focus Active.