Car Chat

Started by FoMoJo, August 26, 2014, 05:59:31 AM

AutobahnSHO

Quote from: Laconian on May 20, 2020, 10:27:48 PM
...and executive cars, and supercars...

Exactly. Depends on the trim level. Which is why Wimmer wigs out on certain cars that look like all the other ones but he notices the badge and subtleties.

Not that long ago you could still order MB with manual windows....
Will

cawimmer430

Quote from: veeman on May 20, 2020, 12:03:56 PM
I'm glad your father and you are happy with the purchase and it looks like the car suits your father very well.  These types of cars are a hard sell in the U.S. because they're more expensive than mainstream brand alternatives.  There's no mainstream brand alternative for a Mercedes E class but there are a lot for these smaller FWD architecture cars/hatches. 

My Dad would love driving your Dad's new car.  It's soft and roomy but with a small footprint making it easy to maneuver and drive.   


It honestly is a very relaxing car to drive. Not sporty at all. Handling is ok under most circumstances, even with the rear torsion beam suspension, but the moment you take a corner a little faster the higher center of gravity comes into effect. Best driven slow, just how most senior citizens mainly drive.  :praise:

Yeah, there's no market for the B-Class in the US (I believe Canada gets them, right?), but you guys will essentially get the same car in the form of the new GLA and GLB, but with much better handling. Also, the new A-Class Sedan is based on the same platform (as is the new CLA) and these will be sold in the US. Having driven a the A180d and A200 as well as the new CLA180 - all with the rear torsion beam suspension - they're not bad in terms of some everyday low-/mid-level sporty handling. But if you really want a FWD car that handles well, get an '250 models with the multi-link rear suspension.  :praise:
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

cawimmer430

Quote from: veeman on May 20, 2020, 01:23:16 PM
Yeah but even the cheap versions of Mercedes, Audi, and BMW they sell in Europe are more expensive than equivalently sized FWD architecture mainstreamer brand cars/hatches.  I'm sure they're better to drive and sit in than the mainstreamer brands but mainstreamer brands have really upped their game in the US in the last two decades. 

The main differences these days is the type of features you get in the equivalent Audi, BMW or Mercedes as compared to in the mainstream brand. Subtle quality differences, tangible and intangible, can also be identified. Nobody really buys a B-Class or a BMW 2-Series Gran Tourer for performance, which is why there are no performance versions of these cars available. However, if you do want power and "handling", Mercedes does offer a B250/B250 4Matic with multi-link rear suspension and BMW likewise offers a more potent model of their 2er Gran Tourer range. You won't find such an option from Kia, Hyundai, Toyota etc. in this class of car.

Generally the cars from Audi, BMW and MB that "compete" with similar mainstream cars will also drive better or safer. My dad's new B-Class, while not a sporty or superb handling car, is competent enough and feels safe and well-placed on the road. A lesser car from a mainstream brand might not be as comfortable, have a louder suspension and maybe cheaper interior materials: money is saved somewhere.

But in retrospect, many customers of say the B-Class have always driven Mercedes' products, but they want to downsize and get with the times. My dad is the perfect example; from an S-Class to a two E-Classes to a B-Class. Essentially one of the reasons the B-Class exists is for former Mercedes' owners to be able to drive something compact, yet roomy and sensible instead of heading over to a Kia or Nissan dealer for a similar, but cheaper product. This might not work for all markets (like North America), but here in Europe where owning a large car is really a pain, this makes perfect sense.
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

cawimmer430

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on May 21, 2020, 06:19:10 AM
Not that long ago you could still order MB with manual windows....

Forgot to mention, my dad's B200 has an electrically controllable  driver seat, but the passenger seat next to it is manual.

I actually prefer manual seats because if I am the only person driving the car, then I don't need to constantly adjust the seat. Also, I find the manual controls much quicker than the slower electric seats. However, in my dad's B200 the electric seats can be adjusted rather fast and wow, they are SO QUIET when they're being adjusted. Feels really high-tech and premium. I remember how "loud" the electric seats were in my dad's ex-E350 CGI.

Manual windows on the last MBs were basically relegated to the rear doors of the old A-Class and old B-Class. Cheaper and saves money and weight.  :lol:
-2018 Mercedes-Benz A250 AMG Line (W177)



WIMMER FOTOGRAFIE - Professional Automotive Photography based in Munich, Germany
www.wimmerfotografie.de
www.facebook.com/wimmerfotografie

Soup DeVille

I vastly prefer manual liftbacks and hatchbacks to the powered ones; even the two-piece liftgate/tailgate in the LandCruiser is quicker to use than the powered ones.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

FoMoJo

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 21, 2020, 07:17:21 AM
I vastly prefer manual liftbacks and hatchbacks to the powered ones; even the two-piece liftgate/tailgate in the LandCruiser is quicker to use than the powered ones.
I liked the idea of power liftbacks where you can swipe your foot underneath and it opens.  I'm often loaded down with shopping bags having to set them down in the parking lot to open up the lifegate.  However, I can't help thinking that on an icy winter's day with both arms loaded with groceries, I lift my foot up to swipe underneath and end up under the back of the vehicle with groceries scattered all around.
"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth" ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Soup DeVille

Quote from: FoMoJo on May 21, 2020, 07:32:26 AM
I liked the idea of power liftbacks where you can swipe your foot underneath and it opens.  I'm often loaded down with shopping bags having to set them down in the parking lot to open up the lifegate.  However, I can't help thinking that on an icy winter's day with both arms loaded with groceries, I lift my foot up to swipe underneath and end up under the back of the vehicle with groceries scattered all around.

I think the better solution there would be actual voice controls.

The foot thing seems like it has a few problems, and specifically isn't useful for anybody with mobility issues; which are the only people who might need a power liftgate anyways.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

MX793

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 21, 2020, 07:17:21 AM
I vastly prefer manual liftbacks and hatchbacks to the powered ones; even the two-piece liftgate/tailgate in the LandCruiser is quicker to use than the powered ones.

Any time I've gotten a rental with a powered gate, I find myself using the fob from halfway across the parking lot so that it's actually open by the time I get to the vehicle.  Still end up waiting a bit for it to close.
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5

AutobahnSHO

Odyssey has awesome rear liftgate. Fob or buttons from driver seat are power. If you push the button on the door itself to open it, it pops open manually 2x as fast as the motors.  Once it's open, push the button to close and it beeps and by the time you get in it's closed.
Will

2o6

The internet's insistence of shitting on "torsion beam" versus "multi-link" is the weirdest thing we've come to lately.


There's nothing wrong with torsion beams for many applications. You can't even tell the difference in most applications.



Soup DeVille

Quote from: 2o6 on May 21, 2020, 09:18:37 AM
The internet's insistence of shitting on "torsion beam" versus "multi-link" is the weirdest thing we've come to lately.


There's nothing wrong with torsion beams for many applications. You can't even tell the difference in most applications.




I feel like we've had this conversation...
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

2o6

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 21, 2020, 09:33:30 AM
I feel like we've had this conversation...

(it drives me up the wall every fucking time I read it)

Raza

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 21, 2020, 07:17:21 AM
I vastly prefer manual liftbacks and hatchbacks to the powered ones; even the two-piece liftgate/tailgate in the LandCruiser is quicker to use than the powered ones.

The powered lift backs are nice if you're approaching your car while carrying stuff, which I suppose is a thing people do.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Raza

Quote from: 2o6 on May 21, 2020, 09:18:37 AM
The internet's insistence of shitting on "torsion beam" versus "multi-link" is the weirdest thing we've come to lately.


There's nothing wrong with torsion beams for many applications. You can't even tell the difference in most applications.

Torsion beams are garbage horse-and-buggy technology and any car that still uses one should be set on fire along with the Amish.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

giant_mtb

God forbid you have to put something down for 3 seconds to open a liftback/tailgate.

I am not a fan of powered units. They are so slow, and the resistance from the motors/mechanisms makes them annoying to open/close manually.

At least all of the mechanics reside inside the vehicle so they won't go to shit after a few years of winter exposure around here. But some vehicles have extremely well-balanced manual liftgates that are a breeze to open, while others seem much heftier. Subarus have really nice, light liftgate action.

Raza

Quote from: giant_mtb on May 21, 2020, 03:44:25 PM
God forbid you have to put something down for 3 seconds to open a liftback/tailgate.

I am not a fan of powered units. They are so slow, and the resistance from the motors/mechanisms makes them annoying to open/close manually.

At least all of the mechanics reside inside the vehicle so they won't go to shit after a few years of winter exposure around here. But some vehicles have extremely well-balanced manual liftgates that are a breeze to open, while others seem much heftier. Subarus have really nice, light liftgate action.

It's raining, you're carrying a baby, a wolf, and some groceries. You can't leave the baby with the groceries, the wolf with the baby, or the groceries with the wolf. Which two are you going to put down on the wet ground?

I'm not saying I need a power liftgate, I drive a sports car. But maybe you can take literally 1 second off from being a premature curmudgeon and realize people have different life situations from you and that it could be a convenience for some people.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

giant_mtb


giant_mtb

Wait. If you have a baby in one arm, and groceries in another, don't you still have to put the groceries down to get your key fob out to push the unlock/tailgate button anyways?

FoMoJo

Quote from: 2o6 on May 21, 2020, 11:12:37 AM
(it drives me up the wall every fucking time I read it)
Where are you reading it?
"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth" ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Raza

Quote from: giant_mtb on May 21, 2020, 04:21:37 PM
Wait. If you have a baby in one arm, and groceries in another, don't you still have to put the groceries down to get your key fob out to push the unlock/tailgate button anyways?

Not with the foot activated tailgate.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

FoMoJo

Quote from: giant_mtb on May 21, 2020, 04:21:37 PM
Wait. If you have a baby in one arm, and groceries in another, don't you still have to put the groceries down to get your key fob out to push the unlock/tailgate button anyways?
You swipe your foot under the back of the vehicle.  It's magic.
"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth" ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

MrH

Quote from: giant_mtb on May 21, 2020, 04:21:37 PM
Wait. If you have a baby in one arm, and groceries in another, don't you still have to put the groceries down to get your key fob out to push the unlock/tailgate button anyways?

:confused:

You haven't used a newer SUV recently, have you?
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

giant_mtb

#10162
No, never. I don't detail and interact with 150+ vehicles of varying style and trim every summer.

giant_mtb

I can tell y'all have never tried to use a vehicle's "swipe your foot to enter" machinery. Good lord. It barely works. It's like back-up sensors...they freak out and don't work the moment they have any kind of dirt or road debris on them.  I know that might just be a "YouPee" winter thing, but.

FoMoJo

Quote from: giant_mtb on May 21, 2020, 06:11:17 PM
I can tell y'all have never tried to use a vehicle's "swipe your foot to enter" machinery. Good lord. It barely works. It's like back-up sensors...they freak out and don't work the moment they have any kind of dirt or road debris on them.  I know that might just be a "YouPee" winter thing, but.
I did a bit of a test drive on an Edge Titanium with that option.  Kind of disappointing.  If I had a load of groceries in each hand my arms might have gotten numb waiting for the lift-gate to open.
"Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth" ~ Albert Einstein
"As the saying goes, when you mix science and politics, you get politics."

Morris Minor

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 21, 2020, 07:11:35 AM
The main differences these days is the type of features you get in the equivalent Audi, BMW or Mercedes as compared to in the mainstream brand. Subtle quality differences, tangible and intangible, can also be identified. Nobody really buys a B-Class or a BMW 2-Series Gran Tourer for performance, which is why there are no performance versions of these cars available. However, if you do want power and "handling", Mercedes does offer a B250/B250 4Matic with multi-link rear suspension and BMW likewise offers a more potent model of their 2er Gran Tourer range. You won't find such an option from Kia, Hyundai, Toyota etc. in this class of car.

Generally the cars from Audi, BMW and MB that "compete" with similar mainstream cars will also drive better or safer. My dad's new B-Class, while not a sporty or superb handling car, is competent enough and feels safe and well-placed on the road. A lesser car from a mainstream brand might not be as comfortable, have a louder suspension and maybe cheaper interior materials: money is saved somewhere.

But in retrospect, many customers of say the B-Class have always driven Mercedes' products, but they want to downsize and get with the times. My dad is the perfect example; from an S-Class to a two E-Classes to a B-Class. Essentially one of the reasons the B-Class exists is for former Mercedes' owners to be able to drive something compact, yet roomy and sensible instead of heading over to a Kia or Nissan dealer for a similar, but cheaper product. This might not work for all markets (like North America), but here in Europe where owning a large car is really a pain, this makes perfect sense.
That CLK350 we had was a case in point. It was a delight - just beautifully put together - two planes above the Infiniti and three above the CR-V.
It still kills me that that truck ripped the side off it.
⏤  '10 G37 | '21 CX-5 GT Reserve  ⏤
''Simplicity is Complexity Resolved'' - Constantin Brâncuși

giant_mtb

Quote from: FoMoJo on May 21, 2020, 06:15:47 PM
I did a bit of a test drive on an Edge Titanium with that option.  Kind of disappointing.  If I had a load of groceries in each hand my arms might have gotten numb waiting for the lift-gate to open.

...yup. You just end up looking like a weirdo standing on one foot, swiping your other, with a load of shit in your hands, trying to get the thing to open. They aren't good. 

MrH

Quote from: giant_mtb on May 21, 2020, 06:02:43 PM
No, never. I don't detail and interact with 150+ vehicles of varying style and trim every summer.

You're shocked you can open the hatch with the key in your pocket...
2023 Ford Lightning Lariat ER
2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

dazzleman

Quote from: Laconian on May 20, 2020, 06:55:51 PM
They promote them during football games etc.

I've insured my car with State Farm for 6 years and my agent has never mentioned it.  I think they view me as a boring, sedate driver.  If only they knew the truth... :lol:
A good friend will come bail you out of jail...BUT, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, DAMN...that was fun!

MX793

Quote from: dazzleman on May 21, 2020, 08:47:32 PM
I've insured my car with State Farm for 6 years and my agent has never mentioned it.  I think they view me as a boring, sedate driver.  If only they knew the truth... :lol:

I think they are a gimmick for people in the high risk pool (young people, people with accident history, poor credit, etc).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
1992 Nissan 240SX Fastback / 2004 Mazda Mazda3s / 2011 Ford Mustang V6 Premium / 2007 Suzuki GSF1250SA Bandit / 2006 VW Jetta 2.5