***Gorgeous White BMW M3 Coupe***

[cawimmer430]

Every quality survey in the world in the last 20 years.

Oh please. If you want an UNBIASED opinion, MB cars at the moment are just as well-made as those of Lexus. Heck, even the W210 E-Class was overall a decent car for example. I personally know two people (friends of m y dad) with W210s that have over 500,000 km on them and are still running strong. They use their cars to do business in Eastern Europe and travel there quite a few times a year. The major weakness of the W210 was rusting problems however. Build quality wise it was more than decent.

My Jeep has multi-seats: that doesn't make it a minivan.

Yes, soccer dad. 

Buses are buses, not minivans.

Yes, I agree. All I'm saying is that Mercedes sold some of their smaller buses in trim levels that would appeal to private buyers. Back then, a small bus could be considered the modern forerunner of the minivan, since the minivan wasn't officially "created" yet. And don't forget the VW Campers of the 1950s. Now those were pretty much solid minivans, even moreso than the MB buses. 

Besides, it isn't a Benz: it was built after-market by Netphener Omnibusgesellschaft.

With the chassis and engine coming from Benz. Netphener merely provided the coachwork.

It's a forward-control van. Congratulations, you found a forward control van that debuted five years after the VW Type 2. It's a body on frame truck, it's not a minivan.

Yeah, you're right anyway. I think VW deserves more credit for really hammering in this type of vehicle than MB.

I just wanted to piss Treppy off too. 

Fact is, at least from what I've read, that MB did invent the concept of a motorized multi-purpose carrier in the late 19th / early 20th century.

First minivan was arguably the Stout Scarab, probably the VW Type 2, and now defined by the Dodge Caravan.

[Onslaught]

Oh please. If you want an UNBIASED opinion, MB cars at the moment are just as well-made as those of Lexus.

Unbiased? No offense but you couldn't give an unbiased opinion about a comparison between the two.
No more then I could with say a Solstice and MX-5.

[cawimmer430]

Unbiased? No offense but you couldn't give an unbiased opinion about a comparison between the two.
No more then I could with say a Solstice and MX-5.

Yes I could. I've said many positive things before about Lexus. Like how I think the GS has the best interior in class with the Audi A6 for example, way above the E-Class. Or how they're good value for money and probably appeal to people who want a well-equipped car and don't care about heritage. Stuff like that. 

But I'm being really serious when I say that Lexus is IMHO mega-overrated. They are.

[Onslaught]

Heritage can only take you so fare. I don't know many people who go around worrying if their car has heritage or not. But the people I know don't have their noses up in the air too.
All I know is that in the States I could go get a Lexus for far less than a MB and have just as good a car. But I'd still rather have an Infinity over both of them.

[93JC]

Oh please. If you want an UNBIASED opinion, MB cars at the moment are just as well-made as those of Lexus. Heck, even the W210 E-Class was overall a decent car for example. I personally know two people (friends of my dad) with W210s that have over 500,000 km on them and are still running strong. They use their cars to do business in Eastern Europe and travel there quite a few times a year. The major weakness of the W210 was rusting problems however. Build quality wise it was more than decent.

You're not qualified to offer an unbiased opinion about anything Mercedes-benz related.

Conversely, I know a tow-truck driver. He tows mostly two kinds of vehicles:

- old junkers that are falling apart
- brand new Mercedes-Benzes and BMWs with electrical system failures

Yes, I agree. All I'm saying is that Mercedes sold some of their smaller buses in trim levels that would appeal to private buyers. Back then, a small bus could be considered the modern forerunner of the minivan, since the minivan wasn't officially "created" yet.

Exactly.

With the chassis and engine coming from Benz. Netphener merely provided the coachwork.

Yeah, Netphener provided the coachwork. You know, the thing that separated it from everything else at the time...

Fact is, at least from what I've read, that MB did invent the concept of a motorized multi-purpose carrier in the late 19th / early 20th century.

I'm sure you did read that somewhere. Probably a Mercedes-Benz book...

[Raza]

Yes I could. I've said many positive things before about Lexus. Like how I think the GS has the best interior in class with the Audi A6 for example, way above the E-Class. Or how they're good value for money and probably appeal to people who want a well-equipped car and don't care about heritage. Stuff like that. 

But I'm being really serious when I say that Lexus is IMHO mega-overrated. They are.

GS has the worst interior in class, I believe.  Large empty expanses of plain plastic, ugly design, and nowhere near the quality of the Audi. 

[ChrisV]

Wow. Automotive enthusiasts competing to prove who can hate the most cars. You sure you guys aren't car-hating eco-nazis IRL?

I like the white M3. I'd prefer the roof to be the same color as the car in this case, but I still like it. And I love the looks of the new 3 series coupes. I'd love this car in Estoril Blue...

[ChrisV]

BTW, my 7 series had excellent brakes and at 10 years and 154k miles old, has a perfect condition dash and leather interior. Don't know WHAT you guys are smoking...

[Raza]

I'm just going on what I've read, almost specifically about M car brakes. However, I've been in a few old BMWs and they have fine interiors though.

[Onslaught]

BTW, my 7 series had excellent brakes and at 10 years and 154k miles old, has a perfect condition dash and leather interior. Don't know WHAT you guys are smoking...

I didn't say they all crack no matter what. But I've noticed that many do.

[CALL_911]

Wow. Automotive enthusiasts competing to prove who can hate the most cars. You sure you guys aren't car-hating eco-nazis IRL?

I like the white M3. I'd prefer the roof to be the same color as the car in this case, but I still like it. And I love the looks of the new 3 series coupes. I'd love this car in Estoril Blue...

[Submariner]

Prestige is built upon building a superior product. And right now Lexus is kicking everyone else's ass.

The Germans really have had over 100 years to perfect their cars, but they haven't. Lexus' first car was considered better-built, more reliable, etc. Sure it was a pretty blatant copy of a Mercedes-Benz. But it was quantifiably better.

And for most car buyers that is paramount. It's what builds prestige (other than having ridiculously high prices, which is just about the only thing keeping Mercedes-Benz 'prestigious' whatsoever in Canada).

The first ES 250 and LS 400 were in no way better, or for that matter even close, to their comparible Mercedes.  The Mercedes were, however, rediculously overpriced for what they were.  The second generation LS 400 was the start of their rise to the top.  The 1st IMO was vastly overated.

The 98-03ish Lexus products, in terms of build quality at least, easily had Merc beat.  However, once again, Mercedes seems to have sliped ahead, and looking at their recent efforts (S, C, and especially the CL) seem to want to keep it that way. 

[BimmerM3]

I didn't say they all crack no matter what. But I've noticed that many do.

EDIT: Any leather interior that's not taken care of and is subjected to the wrong conditions will crack after 10 years. It's just the nature of leather.

[Raghavan]

Any leather interior that's not taken car of will crack after 10 years. It's just the nature of leather.

My parents' Accord just turned 10 years old and we haven't done anything to the interior and it's fine.

[BimmerM3]

Says the guy with a BMW in his name, avatar, and signature. 

Price has to be taken into account because the price matters.  If you disregard price you should be allowed to disregard any other thing.  Like BMW's historically shitty brakes (according to Evo, I haven't driven every BMW), or the Infiniti's high weight. 

Sure, you can disregard any other thing. It depends on what you're trying to prove. If you're going to show that the 3 series is a better driving car, you disregard price. If you're trying to show that the G35 is a better deal than a 3 series, you disregard that the 3 series is a better driving car.

Fact is, if I have $45,000 to spend on a sport sedan, and the G35 is a better driving car even though it only costs $35,000, I'm not going to buy the BMW just because I have 10 extra grand to spare. However, if the 3 series is a better driving car, I'm going to buy that, even though I'll be out 10 grand more.

[BimmerM3]

My parents' Accord just turned 10 years old and we haven't done anything to the interior and it's fine.

I edited my post. Maybe your 'rent's car spent fewer days in glaring sun.

[Onslaught]

All I'm saying is I'm around many older BMW cars. And a alarming number of them have big cracks on the dash.
As for seats, I've had leather before and it held up great. But then again I take better care of my car then most people.

Perhaps I live is some strange area that destroys BMW dashes faster than all other cars?

And I didn't say that BMW's suck because of this. 240Z cars rust and I like them. MX-5's clutch slave cylinders fail around 60K on the dot and I still like them.
I'm just sick of seeing some people talk about how perfect German cars are and what crap Toyota sells.

[JYODER240]

The 98-03ish Lexus products, in terms of build quality at least, easily had Merc beat.  However, once again, Mercedes seems to have sliped ahead, and looking at their recent efforts (S, C, and especially the CL) seem to want to keep it that way. 

I agree those years of Lexus are clearly better built and have better materials than the competition. I think they've slacked a little on their more recent stuff and are trying to live off their reputation.

[BimmerM3]

All I'm saying is I'm around many older BMW cars. And a alarming number of them have big cracks on the dash.
As for seats, I've had leather before and it held up great. But then again I take better care of my car then most people.

Perhaps I live is some strange area that destroys BMW dashes faster than all other cars?

And I didn't say that BMW's suck because of this. 240Z cars rust and I like them. MX-5's clutch slave cylinders fail around 60K on the dot and I still like them.
I'm just sick of seeing some people talk about how perfect German cars are and what crap Toyota sells.

I trust you on the BMW thing... I think I came off a little too defensive. It seems to me like a lot of older BMWs that I've been in have cracked leather on the seats, but like I said, I've experienced that on many older cars, not just BMWs.

I also don't think that anyone on this board will seriously tell you that Toyota sells crap. Sure, most of us agree that Camrys are painfully non-engaging, but we all know they're good at what they do.

[cawimmer430]

Heritage can only take you so fare. I don't know many people who go around worrying if their car has heritage or not. But the people I know don't have their noses up in the air too.
All I know is that in the States I could go get a Lexus for far less than a MB and have just as good a car. But I'd still rather have an Infinity over both of them.

Something that all European luxury brands have in common is a lot of heritage. To me therefore, this is one of the things a "true luxury" brand needs. People aspire to own a BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar or Rolls Royce (etc.) because they stand for something.

A lot of people don't care about heritage, THAT'S FINE. What's not fine is when they come out with bullshit like "Lexus has more prestige than BMW and is equal to Mercedes because the LS can park itself and S-Class can't..." Sorry, but that's utter BULLSHIT. Take a look at my Mercedes Museum / BMW Museum threads. They own Lexus a million times over in achievements and accomplishments. Lexus is a boring brand with no heritage that I wouldn't aspire to owning. They make superb cars, but that's it. There's nothing emotionally attractive or enticing about a Lexus. No participation in motorsports (except some Rolex Series that nobody has ever heard off), no real accomplishments the way BMW or Mercedes accomplished something. In fact, I find the accomplishments of Lexus to be totally overrated.

For God's sake they had rich daddy Toyota behind them with virtually unlimited cash reserves. I'm pretty sure Lexus could afford to sell at a loss to gain market share when they first started out - because Toyota could afford it. Lexus is where it is because of the financial power of Toyota. They could afford to offer more for less money (even if it meant making a slight financial loss per car) for the sake of gaining market share. More importantly, Lexus has hardly any real innovations. They take existing technology and improve upon it. Best example is the Mercedes Pre-Safe system which Lexus shamelessly ripped off and had the balls to claim they "invented it" in some bullshit lame Lexus advertisement. Pathetic.

[cawimmer430]

You're not qualified to offer an unbiased opinion about anything Mercedes-benz related.

Conversely, I know a tow-truck driver. He tows mostly two kinds of vehicles:

- old junkers that are falling apart
- brand new Mercedes-Benzes and BMWs with electrical system failures

Sounds to me like your friend is a Lexus fanboy...

Exactly.

Yeah, Netphener provided the coachwork. You know, the thing that separated it from everything else at the time...

The coachwork was the body. Benz supplied the engine and a number of other mechanical components.

I'm sure you did read that somewhere. Probably a Mercedes-Benz book...

Mercedes-Benz Museum actually. I don't think they would lie about something like that.

[cawimmer430]

GS has the worst interior in class, I believe.  Large empty expanses of plain plastic, ugly design, and nowhere near the quality of the Audi. 

The Lexus GS does strike me as a mediocre car overall, mainly because it seems to be so "uncompetitive" in many ways. The inside is small (I've sat in one, front and back with the front seats moved all the way forward etc.) and so is the trunk. The transmission tunnel is unusually wide (just like on the IS) taking up precious leg space, front and back. Engine wise, you have an overrated GS450h which gets worse fuel economy and emissions than a new BMW 530i and the GS300 (or is it GS350 now?) and that new GS460. Might be fine for America, but not for Europe.

I find the interior to be really good though, right up there with the Audi A6. It's even better than the LS even IMO, which I find slightly overrated.

[ChrisV]

I didn't say they all crack no matter what. But I've noticed that many do.

You can say that about nearly any car. Especially in sunshine states, where the UV damages the vinyls. I've seen cracked dashes in Miatas and Civics, too.

[Onslaught]

You can say that about nearly any car. Especially in sunshine states, where the UV damages the vinyls. I've seen cracked dashes in Miatas and Civics, too.

Well I've been in literally thousands of the cars you just named. And I can only remember one MX-5 with a busted up dash. I can't remember ever seeing a civic.
But I'm wrong and it's just a fluke. BMW has never made anything that could go wrong and because your car is fine then all of them are.

[Onslaught]

Something that all European luxury brands have in common is a lot of heritage. To me therefore, this is one of the things a "true luxury" brand needs. People aspire to own a BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar or Rolls Royce (etc.) because they stand for something.

A lot of people don't care about heritage, THAT'S FINE. What's not fine is when they come out with bullshit like "Lexus has more prestige than BMW and is equal to Mercedes because the LS can park itself and S-Class can't..." Sorry, but that's utter BULLSHIT. Take a look at my Mercedes Museum / BMW Museum threads. They own Lexus a million times over in achievements and accomplishments. Lexus is a boring brand with no heritage that I wouldn't aspire to owning. They make superb cars, but that's it. There's nothing emotionally attractive or enticing about a Lexus. No participation in motorsports (except some Rolex Series that nobody has ever heard off), no real accomplishments the way BMW or Mercedes accomplished something. In fact, I find the accomplishments of Lexus to be totally overrated.

For God's sake they had rich daddy Toyota behind them with virtually unlimited cash reserves. I'm pretty sure Lexus could afford to sell at a loss to gain market share when they first started out - because Toyota could afford it. Lexus is where it is because of the financial power of Toyota. They could afford to offer more for less money (even if it meant making a slight financial loss per car) for the sake of gaining market share. More importantly, Lexus has hardly any real innovations. They take existing technology and improve upon it. Best example is the Mercedes Pre-Safe system which Lexus shamelessly ripped off and had the balls to claim they "invented it" in some bullshit lame Lexus advertisement. Pathetic.

Bull shit.
A good car is a good car regardless of how many races or inventions the manufacture has made in the past. How the hell does prestige help you after you buy a Jag and it leaves you on the side of the road?
I'm sure while you call a tow truck to get your stuck up ass you can tell the Lexus driver who's driving by "well, my car has more prestige than yours."

I'm fully aware that MB has done many great things in the past and present. But that's not enough to say that others can't make something just as good as they do. Hell, Hyundai could make a better car.
I know that they have been around longer and have a more"prestigious" history. But in the end it makes no difference in the quality of the current cars sold.

[ChrisV]

Well I've been in literally thousands of the cars you just named. And I can only remember one MX-5 with a busted up dash. I can't remember ever seeing a civic.

http://austin.craigslist.org/car/455286767.html

http://www.hondacarforum.com/acura/3854-1989-acura-legend-dash-kit.html

The point is, any car can have a cracked dash as it ages, depending on location and how it was taken care of. And any car can NOT have a cracked dash. Judging it by brand is ridiculous.

But I'm wrong and it's just a fluke. BMW has never made anything that could go wrong and because your car is fine then all of them are.

Oh, come on, Way to act like a fucking baby. Face it, you made a blanket statement that was wrong. Not all of them have to be perfect for that to be the case.

The fact is, I bought a cheap used one, and like all of them I looked at, the dash is uncracked. The car is 10 years old, thus your statement that they WILL fucking crack at 10 years old is WRONG.

Quit acting like a fucking baby about it and crying because I caught you out on a blanket statement.

[Raza]

Sure, you can disregard any other thing. It depends on what you're trying to prove. If you're going to show that the 3 series is a better driving car, you disregard price. If you're trying to show that the G35 is a better deal than a 3 series, you disregard that the 3 series is a better driving car.

Fact is, if I have $45,000 to spend on a sport sedan, and the G35 is a better driving car even though it only costs $35,000, I'm not going to buy the BMW just because I have 10 extra grand to spare. However, if the 3 series is a better driving car, I'm going to buy that, even though I'll be out 10 grand more.

Okay, here's the hypothetical.  The BMW is better.  But only by a little (let's say 5%).  But it costs 25% more.  Would you still buy it?  What if it costs 50% more?  100% more?  If so, you're a fool. 

The argument isn't whether or not the car is marginally better.  The argument is whether it's worth the extra money.

[SVT666]

Fuck all of you and your pretentious cars.

Mustang = Prestige   

[93JC]

The first ES 250 and LS 400 were in no way better, or for that matter even close, to their comparible Mercedes.  The Mercedes were, however, rediculously overpriced for what they were.  The second generation LS 400 was the start of their rise to the top.  The 1st IMO was vastly overated.

You can delude yourself into believing whatever you want. Toyota will laugh to the bank regardless.

Sounds to me like your friend is a Lexus fanboy...

He's a tow-truck driver...

Not everybody who thinks Mercedes-Benzes and BMWs are unreliable is a 'Lexus fanboi'.

The coachwork was the body.

Exactly. What separated the 'omnibus' from ever other car at the time? The BODY. Netphener could just as easily have picked some other car to put their body on.

Mercedes-Benz Museum actually. I don't think they would lie about something like that.

Mercedes-Benz, corporately, tends to overexaggerate in such claims. I suppose you think The first cars to have ABS and airbags were Mercedes-Benzes? That's what they would have you believe, but it's not true.

Something that all European luxury brands have in common is a lot of heritage. To me therefore, this is one of the things a "true luxury" brand needs. People aspire to own a BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar or Rolls Royce (etc.) because they stand for something.

A lot of people don't care about heritage, THAT'S FINE. What's not fine is when they come out with bullshit like "Lexus has more prestige than BMW and is equal to Mercedes because the LS can park itself and S-Class can't..." Sorry, but that's utter BULLSHIT. Take a look at my Mercedes Museum / BMW Museum threads. They own Lexus a million times over in achievements and accomplishments. Lexus is a boring brand with no heritage that I wouldn't aspire to owning. They make superb cars, but that's it. There's nothing emotionally attractive or enticing about a Lexus. No participation in motorsports (except some Rolex Series that nobody has ever heard off), no real accomplishments the way BMW or Mercedes accomplished something. In fact, I find the accomplishments of Lexus to be totally overrated.

For God's sake they had rich daddy Toyota behind them with virtually unlimited cash reserves. I'm pretty sure Lexus could afford to sell at a loss to gain market share when they first started out - because Toyota could afford it. Lexus is where it is because of the financial power of Toyota. They could afford to offer more for less money (even if it meant making a slight financial loss per car) for the sake of gaining market share. More importantly, Lexus has hardly any real innovations. They take existing technology and improve upon it. Best example is the Mercedes Pre-Safe system which Lexus shamelessly ripped off and had the balls to claim they "invented it" in some bullshit lame Lexus advertisement. Pathetic.

The whole reason I keep prodding you on in this thread is to play devil's advocate: I don't like Lexus, I don't like Mercedes-Benz. I'm trying to make a point, because frankly, on behalf of the rest of the forum, we're sick and fucking tired of the idiotic trolling.

You need to understand and accept this: we don't give a fuck. We don't give a fuck if Mercedes-Benz has more racing wins, more 'innovations' throughout its history, blah blah blah, etc. No one cares. No one cares about what you think about Lexus. You made your point a LONG time ago.

Accept these facts:

- we don't care about Mercedes-Benz's prestige
- we don't care about Lexus' prestige
- we don't care who has more prestige
- we don't care who has less prestige

So shut the fuck up about it.

[r0tor]

i think there are more fanbois in here then i can shake a stick at...