Lexus LF-A pricing leaked

[Sigma Projects]

cawimmer430: I know what you're saying, but Toyota has a pretty good history in motor sports, not sure where you're getting that idea of it not. They only started in F1 in 2002, but have been in many other racing leagues world round. Ferrari isn't in as many different types of racing that Toyota has been in. And the LF-A has hit racing circuits.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7042071037610401428&q=LF-A+first+race&ei=10w6SKa2K5TCqAOWsOjdAw

It was mostly after the late 90's did toyota decide that they wanted to kill off all their non-high volume sellers to maximize profits, but I have hopes for them to come back and deliver in the next decade.

I mean you can have your thoughts and such, but all I'm saying is that I'll be holding back my judgement on the car until it hits the streets. I really didn't like the last SC430, especially when it started out as a $80K car... but this looks promising, I mean it's going to be $200K so it's not going to be normal that's for sure.

[cawimmer430]

I 'm glad Wimmer found out the secret formula to determine brand prestige. It's all about how old the brand is and their racing history. It has nothing to do with how good their cars are.

You people are not getting my logic. It doesn't matter if Lexus cars are the best in the world because 20 years of Lexus being around doesn't equal the 100+ years of Mercedes or BMW etc. being around, especially when you consider that MB has been at the forefront of technological development in the car business and still are a powerful force here.

Mercedes has done more for the automotive business than Lexus in regards to motorsport, safety and a number of other areas (which means technological innovations, inventions and developments). Lexus...very little in regards to safety. Lexus makes their quality and value a selling point, but that's not something that's going to give them the brand prestige of Mercedes especially considering that Mercedes has had top quality for many decades and during those decades has been a very involved, active and technologically innovative company.

To me brand prestige is simply defined by heritage and your achievements with that time. Another reason I don't consider Lexus a prestigeous brand on the same level as the European or American luxury brands is because they didn't struggle. In fact they never struggled. Lexus has had daddy Toyota to fund them with money at any time. Think of it this way.

Mercedes is the poor kid who worked hard his whole life to get from Z to A inside a company. Lexus is the rich kid who's daddy pulled some strings and this allowed him to enter the company at position A from day one.

Do you get this analogy? Lexus has had it easy as hell. To me they're not on the same level in terms of brand prestige and never will be on the same level as older premium brands who've evolved and had to fight their way into a market with limited financial capabilities, who made a name for themselves in motorsports or technological innovation.

[cawimmer430]

cawimmer430: I know what you're saying, but Toyota has a pretty good history in motor sports, not sure where you're getting that idea of it not. They only started in F1 in 2002, but have been in many other racing leagues world round. Ferrari isn't in as many different types of racing that Toyota has been in. And the LF-A has hit racing circuits.

Yes, Toyota has plenty of motorsport experience but we're talking about Lexus here. Two separate brands.

And just because they share many components doesn't mean the Toyota motorsport heritage automatically transfers over to Lexus. It doesn't work that way. That's like saying Smart GmbH has motorsport heritage because of Mercedes-Benz.

I mean you can have your thoughts and such, but all I'm saying is that I'll be holding back my judgement on the car until it hits the streets. I really didn't like the last SC430, especially when it started out as a $80K car... but this looks promising, I mean it's going to be $200K so it's not going to be normal that's for sure.

I'm not exactly hating on the LF-A, I just feel that $200K is a lot for a car from a brand which has zero motorsport heritage. It's like you're going to employ a plumber who never went to plumbing school but just saw how other plumbers do the job and thinks he can do it.

I have no doubt that the LF-A will be capable, but in this league of expensive cars there's a general trend for people to want a car with a name. In all seriousness, ask someone if they'd have a Lexus LF-A or a Ferrari whatever and chances are that most likely most people will consider the Ferrari. Because of the name and their well known racing heritage.

The LF-A will have buyers, but just don't count me in. If I had the money I would buy a car in this class with a name and nicer styling. That's me. I value brand heritage and history. To me it's part of the essence of a premium brand. A must have.

[Rich]

You people are not getting my logic.

There isn't any to get

[Rich]

In all seriousness, ask someone if they'd have a Lexus LF-A or a Ferrari whatever and chances are that most likely most people will consider the Ferrari. Because of the name and their well known racing heritage.

Then those people are just as horribly biased as you are

The LF-A will have buyers, but just don't count me in. If I had the money I would buy a car in this class with a name and nicer styling.

We know already, you've been beating us with the Lexus stick for years.

That's me. I value brand heritage and history. To me it's part of the essence of a premium brand. A must have.

It's called bias.  Anytime you buy something based on something other than the product itself you're biased.

The hate mail would pour in if you were an automotive journalist and discredited the LF-A because Lexus lacks heritage and steered people away from buying the car.

[cawimmer430]

The hate mail would pour in if you were an automotive journalist and discredited the LF-A because Lexus lacks heritage and steered people away from buying the car.

I don't see how this has anything to do with bias. I am merely relying on facts to bring across my opinion.

Fact 1: Mercedes is the older company and has more achievements and contributions to their name than Lexus. Fact.

Fact 2: Lexus is younger and has done little and has no heritage so to speak off. Fact.

How can Lexus be as prestigeous as MB then? 


You know, classic cars also say a great deal about a car company. Enough said.

[Raza]

Maybe 3-4 years ago. they would get a couple sales but in this economy.. I wont be able to use all the equity from my house to buy my dream car anymore.. ugh..lol

Didn't the same thing happen to the XJ220?  I heard they still have unsold models sitting around in a warehouse.

[Submariner]

Didn't the same thing happen to the XJ220?  I heard they still have unsold models sitting around in a warehouse.

Wanna go on a road trip...?

[JYODER240]

Personaly, I think it's a little pathetic to buy a car based on what you percieve to be "prestige". I also think it's very dumb to buy a car based on what the company did X number of years ago.

That's like me drinking Coca-cola even though I think Pepsi tastes better because it has been around longer and accomplished more. I'm going to spend my money on the best product regardless of something as silly as prestige.

[SVT666]

Personaly, I think it's a little pathetic to buy a car based on what you percieve to be "prestige". I also think it's very dumb to buy a car based on what the company did X number of years ago.

That's like me drinking Coca-cola even though I think Pepsi tastes better because it has been around longer and accomplished more. I'm going to spend my money on the best product regardless of something as silly as prestige.

Pepsi rules.

[CALL_911]

Personaly, I think it's a little pathetic to buy a car based on what you percieve to be "prestige". I also think it's very dumb to buy a car based on what the company did X number of years ago.

That's like me drinking Coca-cola even though I think Pepsi tastes better because it has been around longer and accomplished more. I'm going to spend my money on the best product regardless of something as silly as prestige.

I agree, except I like Coca-Cola more.

In 1990, the LS400, which you probably think 'copied' Mercedes, took the W126 by the neck and threw it against a wall. Now could Mercedes disregard that because of 100+ years of other shit? NO!

No one cares what a company has done in the past. If their cars are competitive now (Lexus), maybe even moreso than some of the "real" cars (Mercedes-Benz), obviously Lexus has done a fantastic job. Honestly, in the '90s, prestige was the only thing MB had. When that's the case with ANY automaker, that's when you know you've got a problem.

[Sigma Projects]

cawimmer430, No doubt when you look at BMW, MB, Bentley, etc there is a sense of history. But saying Lexus only has a history of 20 years? That's kind of geo centric thinking. They only slapped the name Lexus on their premium cars in the US and a few other counties because people LOVE brand names, Toyota felt that to be competitive they needed to start somewhere with a new name that would set off a different feeling when being compared to other makes.

So in 1993 select markets including the US the Lexus line took place of Toyota cars.
LS line = Toyota Crown
IS line = Toyota Altezza
SC line = Toyota Soarer
GS line = Toyota Aristo
ES line = Toyota Windom
And it was up till 2005 when Lexus was deemed globally that they stopped using some of the Toyota names and made the cars exclusively a Lexus, like the Altezza for example or Aristo.

I mean Toyota didn't start off building race engines, but MB has a unique history with companies merging and branching off quite a bit in the beginning giving them quite a foot hold so I wouldn't make it sound like MB was the starving kid that went from rags to riches. MB definitely has a greater history in automobile development, but I fail to see how that makes Toyota less.

That's like saying the USA sucks because it doesn't even have a history of 300 years while Europe/Asia have far longer and more rich history, doesn't mean I'm going to jump ship here and leave.

If a car is good then a car is good. Viper = Good, Chrysler Co. = Bad. I mean no one is saying that Lexus is better than MB or BMW, just that if the products match up then people will buy. IS-F, bad, LF-A don't know yet, but it looks like they are spending a lot more time and money on tooling this guy for a real market shocker. I mean the IS-F motor which has a G head, which usually means that Yamaha did the head flow design shows little evidence that Yamaha touched it or tried. The IS-F should have come to the market with a 450hp or more engine with the specs and the companies that touched the motor. Plus the rest of the car seemed bleh. But knowing how well Toyota has done in the past with building up sports cars from the ground up I can imagine this one will be good.

All companies have to start somewhere.

edited a little bit of the first part since I don't know where you live.

[CALL_911]

cawimmer430, No doubt when you look at BMW, MB, Bentley, etc there is a sense of history. But saying Lexus only has a history of 20 years? That's kind of an American centric thinking. They only slapped the name Lexus on their premium cars in the US because people here LOVE brand names, Toyota felt that to be competitive they needed to start somewhere with a new name that would set off a different feeling when being compared to other makes.

So in 1993 select markets including the US the Lexus line took place of Toyota cars.
LS line = Toyota Crown
IS line = Toyota Altezza
SC line = Toyota Soarer
GS line = Toyota Aristo
ES line = Toyota Windom
And it was up till 2005 when Lexus was deemed globally that they stopped using some of the Toyota names and made the cars exclusively a Lexus, like the Altezza for example or Aristo.

I mean Toyota didn't start off building race engines, but MB has a unique history with companies merging and branching off quite a bit in the beginning giving them quite a foot hold so I wouldn't make it sound like MB was the starving kid that went from rags to riches. MB definitely has a greater history in automobile development, but I fail to see how that makes Toyota less.

That's like saying the USA sucks because it doesn't even have a history of 300 years while Europe/Asia have far longer and more rich history, doesn't mean I'm going to jump ship here and leave.

If a car is good then a car is good. Viper = Good, Chrysler Co. = Bad. I mean no one is saying that Lexus is better than MB or BMW, just that if the products match up then people will buy. IS-F, bad, LF-A don't know yet, but it looks like they are spending a lot more time and money on tooling this guy for a real market shocker. I mean the IS-F motor which has a G head, which usually means that Yamaha did the head flow design shows little evidence that Yamaha touched it or tried. The IS-F should have come to the market with a 450hp or more engine with the specs and the companies that touched the motor. Plus the rest of the car seemed bleh. But knowing how well Toyota has done in the past with building up sports cars from the ground up I can imagine this one will be good.

All companies have to start somewhere.

Exactly. I'm not usually one for Toyota, but this is ridiculous.

[2o6]

You people are not getting my logic. It doesn't matter if Lexus cars are the best in the world because 20 years of Lexus being around doesn't equal the 100+ years of Mercedes or BMW etc. being around, especially when you consider that MB has been at the forefront of technological development in the car business and still are a powerful force here.

Mercedes has done more for the automotive business than Lexus in regards to motorsport, safety and a number of other areas (which means technological innovations, inventions and developments). Lexus...very little in regards to safety. Lexus makes their quality and value a selling point, but that's not something that's going to give them the brand prestige of Mercedes especially considering that Mercedes has had top quality for many decades and during those decades has been a very involved, active and technologically innovative company.

To me brand prestige is simply defined by heritage and your achievements with that time. Another reason I don't consider Lexus a prestigeous brand on the same level as the European or American luxury brands is because they didn't struggle. In fact they never struggled. Lexus has had daddy Toyota to fund them with money at any time. Think of it this way.

Mercedes is the poor kid who worked hard his whole life to get from Z to A inside a company. Lexus is the rich kid who's daddy pulled some strings and this allowed him to enter the company at position A from day one.

Do you get this analogy? Lexus has had it easy as hell. To me they're not on the same level in terms of brand prestige and never will be on the same level as older premium brands who've evolved and had to fight their way into a market with limited financial capabilities, who made a name for themselves in motorsports or technological innovation.

By your logic, no new company would never get off the ground becaue of the competing company's "heritage", no matter if the new company possibly made better products.

[Yawn]

You people are not getting my logic. It doesn't matter if Lexus cars are the best in the world because 20 years of Lexus being around doesn't equal the 100+ years of Mercedes or BMW etc. being around, especially when you consider that MB has been at the forefront of technological development in the car business and still are a powerful force here.


Thats where your wrong.. I really dont look at the badge like you.. I just see it as Toyota and they have been around.. Im not a car nut so I dont know how long they have been around.. Its all Toyota Engineering.. There is no separate Lexus Engineering.. I really hate hearing this comments that Lexus/ Infiniti/ and Acura are all these new brands that done have heritage.. Its just Toyota/ Nissan/ and Honda.. Get over it!

[AltinD]

Yes you guys were not looking at the badge but only at the product when you were all trashing the VW Phaeton, one of the finest automobile ever made,  ... and then had not much to criticise (apart some shapes and curves here and there), when VW slapped a B badge on front, a turbo and sold for double the price.

[565]

Pepsi rules.

I seriously can't tell the difference between coke and pepsi.  I can't tell the difference between regular and caffene free either.

[Vinsanity]

Yes you guys were not looking at the badge but only at the product when you were all trashing the VW Phaeton, one of the finest automobile ever made,  ... and then had not much to criticise (apart some shapes and curves here and there), when VW slapped a B badge on front, a turbo and sold for double the price.

Obviously a Bentley Continental is more than just a Phaeton with a flying B on the grille

We saw a VW Phaeton on the highway on the way to Vegas this past weekend, and I asked my sister...

"How much do you think that car costs?"
"I don't know..."
"Do you think higher or lower than $40,000?"
"Lower"
"Nope, try double that"
"Damn. WTF"

[Yawn]

I thought the Phaeton was a great auto. I would have bought it if I was in the market.

Thats why I always give a thumbs up when I see Phaeton drivers on the road.. They appreciate the car for what it is and not what the emblem on the car is.

[NomisR]

I seriously can't tell the difference between coke and pepsi.  I can't tell the difference between regular and caffene free either.

I would like to say you need to refine your pallets, but then again, this is soda we're talking about.. but the difference in taste is pretty obvious..

[MidnightDave]

I immediately thought of the Phaeton, too. Same idea, little higher up the scale. People associate brands to price points, and Lexus is really stepping out of their price point with this one.

Maybe they'll tear a page from 'merican and other car companies and offer fantastic rebates and package discounts and net to the low 100s?

As we all know, the old you could buy 3 'vettes analogy is amusing and worthless, those 'vette buyers wouldn't drive 3 Cavaliers, they wanted a 'vette, so they bought one.

I'll not argue your "logic" or defend the Japanese and Korean companies capitalizing on others efforts (I get your new rich kid analog very well), and I'm not happy about it either--I like to see people earn things.

This just struck me and I want to share it as a fresh perspective:

Perhaps Lexus is targeting a new demographic? Not your dad or granddad who goes for the MB and RR and Bentley Heritage, but the new maverick who goes for the lastest technology in his penthouse condo v. estate, and sleek new furniture that looks like a sculpture v. a collection of family antiques, and doesn't shop Brooks brothers, instead he goes to a boutique around the corner...

Finally, as the saying goes, nothing succeeds like success. It will be interesting to see if they can attain it with this car, at any price point!

[sandertheshark]

Pepsi rules.

[sandertheshark]

Didn't the same thing happen to the XJ220?  I heard they still have unsold models sitting around in a warehouse.

They might have at one point, but I'm sure those have been picked up by collectors by now.

[Raza]

I seriously can't tell the difference between coke and pepsi.  I can't tell the difference between regular and caffene free either.

You can't tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi?  Coke is bubblier, and has a more natural flavor.  Pepsi is smoother, and feels oversweetened.  I can taste the difference between virtually every different soda out there, and their iterations.  I can tell Coke from Diet Coke from Coke Zero, Pepsi from Diet Pepsi, from Pepsi One (especially now that they switched to Splenda as its sweetener).

[Vinsanity]

You can't tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi?  Coke is bubblier, and has a more natural flavor.  Pepsi is smoother, and feels oversweetened.  I can taste the difference between virtually every different soda out there, and their iterations.  I can tell Coke from Diet Coke from Coke Zero, Pepsi from Diet Pepsi, from Pepsi One (especially now that they switched to Splenda as its sweetener).

what can you tell me about sprite vs 7up?

[Raza]

what can you tell me about sprite vs 7up?

I haven't had 7Up in years, but as I recall, the lemon-lime flavoring was more evident.  Sprite always used to be more subtle.  I used to like 7Up more as a kid, but now I'm a Sprite drinker.  Oddly enough, up until a few years ago (I think with the introduction of Coke Zero) I was an avid Pepsi (One) drinker.  Then I just magically switched.  I like Coke better than Pepsi, Diet over Diet, and Zero over One.  I used to think Coke wasn't sweet enough and it was over-carbonated.  Now I feel that Pepsi is too sweet and tastes flat.

[Vinsanity]

Now I feel that Pepsi is too sweet and tastes flat.

I always thought that too.

I do prefer diet Pepsi over diet Coke, though.

[cawimmer430]

cawimmer430, No doubt when you look at BMW, MB, Bentley, etc there is a sense of history. But saying Lexus only has a history of 20 years? That's kind of geo centric thinking. They only slapped the name Lexus on their premium cars in the US and a few other counties because people LOVE brand names, Toyota felt that to be competitive they needed to start somewhere with a new name that would set off a different feeling when being compared to other makes.

So in 1993 select markets including the US the Lexus line took place of Toyota cars.
LS line = Toyota Crown
IS line = Toyota Altezza
SC line = Toyota Soarer
GS line = Toyota Aristo
ES line = Toyota Windom
And it was up till 2005 when Lexus was deemed globally that they stopped using some of the Toyota names and made the cars exclusively a Lexus, like the Altezza for example or Aristo.

I mean Toyota didn't start off building race engines, but MB has a unique history with companies merging and branching off quite a bit in the beginning giving them quite a foot hold so I wouldn't make it sound like MB was the starving kid that went from rags to riches. MB definitely has a greater history in automobile development, but I fail to see how that makes Toyota less.

That's like saying the USA sucks because it doesn't even have a history of 300 years while Europe/Asia have far longer and more rich history, doesn't mean I'm going to jump ship here and leave.

If a car is good then a car is good. Viper = Good, Chrysler Co. = Bad. I mean no one is saying that Lexus is better than MB or BMW, just that if the products match up then people will buy. IS-F, bad, LF-A don't know yet, but it looks like they are spending a lot more time and money on tooling this guy for a real market shocker. I mean the IS-F motor which has a G head, which usually means that Yamaha did the head flow design shows little evidence that Yamaha touched it or tried. The IS-F should have come to the market with a 450hp or more engine with the specs and the companies that touched the motor. Plus the rest of the car seemed bleh. But knowing how well Toyota has done in the past with building up sports cars from the ground up I can imagine this one will be good.

All companies have to start somewhere.

edited a little bit of the first part since I don't know where you live.

Good post and I completely agree. 

My problem is solely when people say or claim that Lexus brand prestige is equal or on the same level or exceeds that of Mercedes-Benz. Because to me, given the history of both car companies, this is totally off. I appreciate history. It is still my favorite subject and I have a lot of Mercedes-Benz books, magazines, memorabilia etc. at home. I've been collecting these since I was a young boy and I've always been fascinated by this brand. I think of myself as a little MB historian too and I can tell you that none of their current competitors come close to their brand prestige - not even BMW, Jaguar etc. and certainly not Lexus.

I feel it is completely unfair to give Lexus a brand prestige equal to that of Mercedes given that Lexus has been around for only 20 years and have had it so easy because they were CREATED and FUNDDED by Toyota who saw a clear target market for this car in the US.

Things were different in the late 19th century when Benz and Daimler built their cars. They had to fight for financial benefactors, they had to really sell cars to people who had really no faith in this new invention yet and the best way to sell their product was by participating in motorsports as this proved the speed and durability of a product. I don't want to get in this again but I hope you're seeing where I am coming from. The history of both brands couldn't be more different. And my example about "MB the poor kid" was just to give you a basic idea of what I am trying to say.

The fact that the very first Lexus were shameless rebadged Toyotas sits negatively with me not because they were bad cars but because it just screams laziness to me for some reason. Why not create a new car from scratch? Back then Toyota had the money to do it. Instead they take the cheap route and rebadge a Toyota Celsior as a Lexus LS400. Sorry, this to me isn't how luxury brands start. Look at Genisis, the luxury brand from Hyundai. It might share parts with a lowly Accent or Sonata, but to my knowledge there is no Hyundai in South Korea that's rebadged as a Genisis for the US.

[Vinsanity]

The fact that the very first Lexus were shameless rebadged Toyotas sits negatively with me not because they were bad cars but because it just screams laziness to me for some reason. Why not create a new car from scratch? Back then Toyota had the money to do it. Instead they take the cheap route and rebadge a Toyota Celsior as a Lexus LS400. Sorry, this to me isn't how luxury brands start. Look at Genisis, the luxury brand from Hyundai. It might share parts with a lowly Accent or Sonata, but to my knowledge there is no Hyundai in South Korea that's rebadged as a Genisis for the US.

FYI: The Toyota Celsior was engineered from the ground up and debuted in Japan simultaneously as the LS400 in America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celsior#Lexus_LS_developmental_overview

Sounds a little like the development of the W126 (in the sense that it was an all-out effort to engineer the best).


And get this:

An estimated five percent of 1989 early sales went to rival manufacturers, who secretly disassembled the vehicle for analysis.^[10]

Who took apart who's car, again?

[NomisR]

I wouldn't buy it just because most of the recent Toyotas drives like crap.  Best would be the MR-S but that could've been so much more than what they did with it.. and steering is still not as good as the competitor..