Lexus LF-A pricing leaked

[cawimmer430]

FYI: The Toyota Celsior was engineered from the ground up and debuted in Japan simultaneously as the LS400 in America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Celsior#Lexus_LS_developmental_overview

Sounds a little like the development of the W126 (in the sense that it was an all-out effort to engineer the best).


And get this:

Who took apart who's car, again?

I'm tired of arguing as we don't agree but I'll check out the link. The more I know about my "enemy", the better. 

[Sigma Projects]

I'm pretty sure most of us understand and know that MB has a far greater history and has their engineers in very venerable places, I think also MB was the first to do DI in one of their high end cars back after WWII. I can also see your frustration with people comparing the two on the basis you're talking about. And I don't anyone is saying that lexus's (Toyota) history is as rich or "prestigious" as MB and yea MB cars ride a lot better and have many pluses over Lexus. But the Lexus brand needed to start somewhere, not sure about calling them lazy by rebadging cars that they didn't sell in america as being lazy. Toyota wanted to create a new feeling. If there were no Lexus and someone said "oh, just bought myself the Toyota Altezza" people wouldn't have the same feeling as saying "Just bought myself the Lexus IS350." Yea, the Lexus brand was HEAVILY influenced by BMW and MB, in both the naming and designs of their cars. They didn't have a Lexus Crown, or Lexus Soarer, they made them LS400 and SC400 using the numerics like BMW and MB does. And I'm pretty sure that the majority of buyers in the market for luxury type cars still see MB and BMW as the front runners, it's just that Toyota is providing a nice fight. I mean when they debuted the IS350 and it's 3.5L 306hp motor BMW for the first time in a long time decided to go Turbo, it was a big shocker and instead of coming up with some new lettering like 330iT or something like that they just said 335i as if they were worried that if they didn't have a '35 version like MB's 350 and Lexus's 350 they'd look less competitive. Toyota still has a ways to go with Lexus, but they're doing far better than Acura. Plus Recently Infiniti has been doing A LOT better than they used to with their hideous cars, now they're things people want, especially the G series, people having been buying them up like crazy. Both Lexus and Infiniti aren't at the same level as MB, but they're getting closer, especially with lower end models, the stick shift in the C-Class didn't show quality as the painted silver part on the shift knob was wearing off and showing the plastic in only about a 6 months time of use, I really didn't expect that from MB. I know that's something very small, but it's slowly chipping away at my views of MB especially when my co-works's fairly new E-Class had so many electrical problems that it wouldn't even start.

Again, I at least am not arguing that MB has a far greater history in terms of development and automotive contribution. But saying that the LF-A is not worth the price before it's even out is kind of ludacris to even base it on anything and people saying "i'd rather buy 4 Z06s or 2 GTRs" or whatever is also being fairly inconsiderate (like MidnightDave mentioned), when Toyota put the brand name Lexus on the LF-A it was meant not to compete as strictly just a sports car, but I'm sure it will come with a host of things that make it "luxurious" or "exclusive." It could be just as bad of an attempt like the IS-F was, but I kind of doubt it and I bet it will be fairly competitive in its price bracket with the amount of money they are pouring into the development of the car.

And I'll say it again, no one is saying MB is not the history rich company. I'm pretty sure on this forum that everyone can agree that MB has a well polished appearance and great historic prestige. 

[AltinD]

No one looking for a Ferrari or Lamborghini will consider the LF-A. I don't think the car would be more then just a fast GT cruiser, as the Continental GT or CL65 AMG are.

[Submariner]

Yes you guys were not looking at the badge but only at the product when you were all trashing the VW Phaeton, one of the finest automobile ever made,  ... and then had not much to criticise (apart some shapes and curves here and there), when VW slapped a B badge on front, a turbo and sold for double the price.

It was a phenomenal luxury auto no doubt, but thats where it's greatness ends.

[cawimmer430]

I'm pretty sure most of us understand and know that MB has a far greater history and has their engineers in very venerable places, I think also MB was the first to do DI in one of their high end cars back after WWII. I can also see your frustration with people comparing the two on the basis you're talking about. And I don't anyone is saying that lexus's (Toyota) history is as rich or "prestigious" as MB and yea MB cars ride a lot better and have many pluses over Lexus. But the Lexus brand needed to start somewhere, not sure about calling them lazy by rebadging cars that they didn't sell in america as being lazy. Toyota wanted to create a new feeling. If there were no Lexus and someone said "oh, just bought myself the Toyota Altezza" people wouldn't have the same feeling as saying "Just bought myself the Lexus IS350." Yea, the Lexus brand was HEAVILY influenced by BMW and MB, in both the naming and designs of their cars. They didn't have a Lexus Crown, or Lexus Soarer, they made them LS400 and SC400 using the numerics like BMW and MB does. And I'm pretty sure that the majority of buyers in the market for luxury type cars still see MB and BMW as the front runners, it's just that Toyota is providing a nice fight. I mean when they debuted the IS350 and it's 3.5L 306hp motor BMW for the first time in a long time decided to go Turbo, it was a big shocker and instead of coming up with some new lettering like 330iT or something like that they just said 335i as if they were worried that if they didn't have a '35 version like MB's 350 and Lexus's 350 they'd look less competitive. Toyota still has a ways to go with Lexus, but they're doing far better than Acura. Plus Recently Infiniti has been doing A LOT better than they used to with their hideous cars, now they're things people want, especially the G series, people having been buying them up like crazy. Both Lexus and Infiniti aren't at the same level as MB, but they're getting closer, especially with lower end models, the stick shift in the C-Class didn't show quality as the painted silver part on the shift knob was wearing off and showing the plastic in only about a 6 months time of use, I really didn't expect that from MB. I know that's something very small, but it's slowly chipping away at my views of MB especially when my co-works's fairly new E-Class had so many electrical problems that it wouldn't even start.

Again, I at least am not arguing that MB has a far greater history in terms of development and automotive contribution. But saying that the LF-A is not worth the price before it's even out is kind of ludacris to even base it on anything and people saying "i'd rather buy 4 Z06s or 2 GTRs" or whatever is also being fairly inconsiderate (like MidnightDave mentioned), when Toyota put the brand name Lexus on the LF-A it was meant not to compete as strictly just a sports car, but I'm sure it will come with a host of things that make it "luxurious" or "exclusive." It could be just as bad of an attempt like the IS-F was, but I kind of doubt it and I bet it will be fairly competitive in its price bracket with the amount of money they are pouring into the development of the car.

And I'll say it again, no one is saying MB is not the history rich company. I'm pretty sure on this forum that everyone can agree that MB has a well polished appearance and great historic prestige. 

Well part of my argument is that when you're paying a lot of money for a Ferrari or Lamborghini it's not only because of the superb engineering that went into it but also the fact that they have a long motorsport history which in turn enhances the brands prestige. A high level of brand prestige means you can charge "prestige pricing" and this is what several companies with heritage are doing: Rolls Royce, Bentley, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Porsche etc. I have no doubts that the LF-A will be worth every penny, but a lot of people in this class tend to be the snobby kind who look at the badge first, product second.

The Japanese premium brands as we've established cannot compete in terms of brand prestige, so they went for the traditional value-for-money route. Believe me if they could overcharge knowing people would pay for their badge they would. But their badge from a heritage and achievement point of view gets blown away by many European premium and sports brands. So if that's the case, what is Lexus doing by asking $200K+ for the LF-A? Why not take the traditional value-for-money route and just ask $150K+ (aka bargain in this class)? The way I see it they're trying to give the LF-A an equal footing in this class by giving it a similar price in the hopes that people will see this car as an equal to a Ferrari _____ or Lambo _____. Technology wise yes, the LF-A will no doubt be on the same level or even a bit more advance, but the Lexus badge to me and many others means nothing from a prestige point of view and this could be a problem for some people who are shopping in this class.


Anyway, as a passionate MB fan I am eager at learning about their past, present and future. I admire their achievements and contributions to the automotive business and I love their cars. Knowing a great deal about their historical past, it just irks me when people claim that Lexus is just as prestigeous as Mercedes. Sorry, but that is just bullshit. I've been to the new Mercedes-Benz Museum in Stuttgart twice where only a handful of their achievements and classic cars, airplane engines, buses, trucks etc. were exhibited. But that was enough to give me a newfound appreciation and awe for this brand and because of this I cannot accept it when people say that Lexus is just as prestigeous as MB just because they've done so well for the last 15 years. Building reliable and well equipped cars is one thing, but they lack motorsport involvement, no real innovation or inventions etc.

I keep mentioning motorsport because it is a very important issue for a luxury brand, especially a European one. The European premium brands generally all have competed in motorsports as it was in the early days a great way of selling your product and furthering technological advancement. For example, many of Benz and Daimler's most famous inventions were the result of motorsport competition. The perfection of the liquid-cooled-radiator and carburator by Wilhelm Maybach for example or the need to lower the car and increase the wheelbase a bit for better handling were some of the few advancements gained from competing in motorsports. Motorsport was and still uses some of the most advanced technology in the automotive business and it eventually trickles down into street-legal production cars from a manufacturers experience in motorsports.

So to recap. The LF-A will be a good machine, but the badge does not warrant that much money IMO especially when considering the competition has an emotional factor to offer. A Ferrari or Lamborghini, a Porsche or an Aston Martin - these are cars people desire. This desire is based on reputation of building superb performing and timeless performance cars over decades. Lexus has a reputation for making reliable but ultra boring premium passenger cars - and no sports cars. Only the new IS-F and the upcoming LF-A are the first ventures into the hardcore high performance market. History has to start somewhere, sure. I bet there are morons out there who claim Lexus is just as prestigeous as Ferrari and the LF-A will be so much better than any Ferrari ever made...

[Vinsanity]

Interesing you mention Lamborghini. Before the 1960's, Ferruccio Lamborghini was a mere tractor manufacturer, the John Deere of Italy, until he met Enzo Ferrari, who turned out to be a douchebag, and decided to enter the market seemingly out of spite.

The interesting part is that Ruccio established a policy not to compete in motorsports because he saw it as a drain on resources. Lamborghini did later on dabble in builing race engines and such here and there, but their overall involvement was nowhere near that of even Toyota.

So if prestige is as highly derived from motorsports as you say it is, then where does Lambo get all its prestige from?

[NomisR]

Interesing you mention Lamborghini. Before the 1960's, Ferruccio Lamborghini was a mere tractor manufacturer, the John Deere of Italy, until he met Enzo Ferrari, who turned out to be a douchebag, and decided to enter the market seemingly out of spite.

The interesting part is that Ruccio established a policy not to compete in motorsports because he saw it as a drain on resources. Lamborghini did later on dabble in builing race engines and such here and there, but their overall involvement was nowhere near that of even Toyota.

So if prestige is as highly derived from motorsports as you say it is, then where does Lambo get all its prestige from?

And then you have Pagani and Koenigsegg, who are pretty successful in their Super car endeavor, both with 0 motorsports experience. 

[FoMoJo]

Pretty close to DBS pricing.  Compared to a DBS it looks pretty lame.  Finesse is just another word for delicate.

[Sigma Projects]

Vinsanity has a point about lambo and I would have brought it up if he didn't.

I'm not sure if someone on here said Ferrari and the LF-A is on the same level of prestige in racing and such, as I think everyone can agree Ferrari is definitely above in racing prestige in their dominance in F1, some may agure they play unfair, but none the less they are the dominant force in F1. But yea, don't bring up Lambo into racing heritage, Toyota has infinitely more experience in racing compared to Lambo. And Toyota also have a very wide range of racing experience, from Baja, Formula Atlantic,Indy 500, Kart, Formula One, Le Mans, WRC, NASCAR, Pikes Peak, 24 Hours of Sebring and a grip more like SuperGT and such.

And if what you say is true, then Porsche has absolutely nothing to worry about once the GT-R hits the streets. Or cars like Koenigsegg are nothing and don't sell. I think in premium high end sports cars the brand history has a big roll in it, but it's the experience that the drive feels from it is what's more important.

MB still carries a greater presence than Lexus not because of its heritage, heck some people in America may think they only go back to the 70's, lol. It's because MB still offers a better driving experience than Lexus does is why they are still above Lexus.

The history that you know about MB is not common knowledge when people go to buy a car it's not something people know about.

[NomisR]

I think in premium high end sports cars the brand history has a big roll in it, but it's the experience that the drive feels from it is what's more important.

I can't say I agree with you 100%.  The way it drives have nothing to do with it for the most part, it's all about the show.  The thing can be all show and no go and people could care less, the only reason they needed go is so they can magazine race, that's it.

Look at the Coutach, that's a really impressive looking, really fast in the straight line but handle for crap.  But people don't care, it looks cool with cool doors. 

You think the tools, zooming around Rodeo drive in first gear in their F430 care about how the car drives?  I doubt it, they just want to be seen and heard, that's why they keep circling the area so tourists can gawk at them over and over again.  And that's why the Pagani Zonda is successful, because it looks awesome.

So basically, in order for the LF-A to work, it has to look crazy with guns pointing out the side and huge wings with the whole car that lifts up to let you out, and it'll be a sure winner.  only thing else they need is a huge top speed #, and that's it!  It could handle like crap and it'll sell.

[JYODER240]

I'm willing to bet that 99% of buyers don't care and don't know about Lexus's or MB's racing, or overall history. I highly doubt they give it any consideration when shopping for a new or used car.

Personally, I didn't care at all about Nissan's history or motorsport success when I got my Z. I'm not buying a race car, I'm buying a road car. I could care less about something as silly as "prestige" as well.

That whole "prestige pricing" thing Wimmer was saying is complete crap. If a brand is going to be so arrogant as to try and charge more for their cars because they think their badge makes it worth it, then I'd rather go with a brand that just charges what the cars are worth. Paying an extra 20K for "prestige" is about as pathetic as it gets. Bottom line I'm going to spend my money on the car that is the best to drive, not throw a bunch of money at a certian badge in hopes of others thinking more highly of me for it.

[Sigma Projects]

I can't say I agree with you 100%.  The way it drives have nothing to do with it for the most part, it's all about the show.  The thing can be all show and no go and people could care less, the only reason they needed go is so they can magazine race, that's it.

Look at the Coutach, that's a really impressive looking, really fast in the straight line but handle for crap.  But people don't care, it looks cool with cool doors. 

You think the tools, zooming around Rodeo drive in first gear in their F430 care about how the car drives?  I doubt it, they just want to be seen and heard, that's why they keep circling the area so tourists can gawk at them over and over again.  And that's why the Pagani Zonda is successful, because it looks awesome.

So basically, in order for the LF-A to work, it has to look crazy with guns pointing out the side and huge wings with the whole car that lifts up to let you out, and it'll be a sure winner.  only thing else they need is a huge top speed #, and that's it!  It could handle like crap and it'll sell.

I thought the people who test drove the R8 found it to be a bore among cars of that pricing. Like it not being a bad performer, but just giving little excitement, relatively. But either way, I didn't mean driving experience directly relates to performance, it's the sounds, the feel, the way a car shifts, etc. or like a person turning off traction control in a F430. Like TVRs, they're mean machines, that have a unique style, but handle like crap, but are ballsy cars. I know there is a good chunk of buyers who only care about it making their penis larger, but I can't see how that the only buyers of high end exotics care nothing about the driving experience.

[cawimmer430]

Interesing you mention Lamborghini. Before the 1960's, Ferruccio Lamborghini was a mere tractor manufacturer, the John Deere of Italy, until he met Enzo Ferrari, who turned out to be a douchebag, and decided to enter the market seemingly out of spite.

Isn't this common knowledge? Heck, BMW made bicycles for a year after World War II. Messerschmitt went from being an aircraft manufacturer to a typewriter- , then a car- and then a helicopter manufacturer.

In the case of Lamborghini, he wanted to offer a product that would beat his rival Enzo's products. What's the magic word here? PASSION. He passionately wanted to slap Enzo in the face and tell him his Ferrari's are nothing compared to his Lamborghini's. This is how the rivalry between the two brands began and many people also viewed this with awe as it meant better performance cars for those who could afford them. Exorbitant pricing is part of what makes these cars appealing to so many who can afford them. They feel that they're purchasing something worth the money.

I know I am going to sound like a snob here and most 'Spinners probably think I am a dick already but such stories of passion are what make a brand appealing to me. This is history and I find a glamarous history to be important for prestige marques. You might not, but I do.

The interesting part is that Ruccio established a policy not to compete in motorsports because he saw it as a drain on resources. Lamborghini did later on dabble in builing race engines and such here and there, but their overall involvement was nowhere near that of even Toyota.

Correct me if I am wrong, but even if Toyota has a long motorsport heritage, where are the victories? The impression I get is that they've participated in a lot of motorsport events, but rarely win. As far as I know, most of these so-called racing events are small Asia-only events which the average car enthusiast has never heard off or possibly doesn't care about. The only motorsport event I recall where Toyota was dominant for some time was WRC winning a few races and championships with their early 1990s Celica.

Maybe it is the fact that the racing events Lamborghini has participated in are seen as more glamarous than that of Toyota. Look at Mercedes-Benz for example. They've only officially participated in some of the most challenging racing events in the world and stayed clear of something like the "Los Angeles Street Racing Cup" (made-up to prove a point). This fact that MB has participated in only highly respected motorsport events is part of their brand prestige for example.

So if prestige is as highly derived from motorsports as you say it is, then where does Lambo get all its prestige from?

You could say that his rivalry with Enzo Ferrari was a big factor in creating appeal and eventually brand prestige for his products. The consumer saw the ongoing rivalry as a means of obtaining better cars in the long run.

I also would say that the design of Lamborghini's cars was a big factor in creating buzz and appeal for the brand. Even in the 1960s and 1970s the design of his cars defied the general trend, stood out and looked exotic, expensive and powerful. Just take a look at classic Lamborghini cars like the 350 GTV, 400GT, Jarama, Uraco, Islero, Miura, Jalpa, Espada and you'll see what I mean. And the car that probably gave Lamborghini the most buzz globally was no doubt the Countach in what, 1973? A design so radical, so flat and small and too many so ugly, yet so beautiful in its own way at the same time. I guess that means that design risks are big factor that either reward the company or not. Toyota has never taken much risk in terms of design - and their designs that were considered exciting were either foreign-designed (Toyota 2000 GT was designed by a German for Datsun who choose not to produce it and then Toyota gobbled it up) or foreign-inspired (original Toyota MR2 looked almost like a Ferrari Dino / Lamborghini Jalpa copy).

Another way of measuring brand prestige is price. Too many people whine about Lamborghini's and Ferrari's being "overpriced" - but yet people are still willing to pay for them. Why? You tell me.

[cawimmer430]

I'm willing to bet that 99% of buyers don't care and don't know about Lexus's or MB's racing, or overall history. I highly doubt they give it any consideration when shopping for a new or used car.

They don't. But just because they don't care doesn't mean they should rank Lexus above Mercedes in terms of brand prestige because that is utter bullshit. History and heritage show you which brand has more brand prestige outside of these people's make-believe-world...

Personally, I didn't care at all about Nissan's history or motorsport success when I got my Z. I'm not buying a race car, I'm buying a road car. I could care less about something as silly as "prestige" as well.

We're talking about luxury cars here. Lexus comes in and thinks that by undercutting everyone in terms of price they will be viewed as a prestige brand that gives customers what they want while not charging anything for extras because everything is already standard. Such crap might work over in the US, but in other places luxury brands are generally viewed as having heritage and brand prestige. Lexus doesn't have it.

That whole "prestige pricing" thing Wimmer was saying is complete crap. If a brand is going to be so arrogant as to try and charge more for their cars because they think their badge makes it worth it, then I'd rather go with a brand that just charges what the cars are worth. Paying an extra 20K for "prestige" is about as pathetic as it gets. Bottom line I'm going to spend my money on the car that is the best to drive, not throw a bunch of money at a certian badge in hopes of others thinking more highly of me for it.

Maybe when you go to college and take a business course you'll be introduced to the word "prestige pricing". There are many firms that do this and they're everywhere be it the wine business, guns etc. Many European firms rely on their heritage and history to overcharge. And many consumers view their history and heritage as a legitimate reason to pay so much for this product. Prestige pricing ain't bullshit, it's a fact.

Trust me, if Lexus could overcharge, they would. They're already ripping people off with that ridiculous LS600h. The power of a V12 and the fuel economy of a V6. Pathetic marketing designed to appeal to stupid people who think an overweigt and overpowered LS is going to be a green car. The worst part is when this car is being compared to cars like the S600 or 760iL - both of which are never claimed to be green. Lexus is simply using this to make the LS600h look like the second coming of Christ. Pathetic.

Pricing wise, Lexus is only playing it safe with something called "efficient pricing" which is the absolute maximum a customer is willing to pay for the product. Mercedes charges more - and people are willing to pay. Why?

[cawimmer430]

I'm not sure if someone on here said Ferrari and the LF-A is on the same level of prestige in racing and such, as I think everyone can agree Ferrari is definitely above in racing prestige in their dominance in F1, some may agure they play unfair, but none the less they are the dominant force in F1. But yea, don't bring up Lambo into racing heritage, Toyota has infinitely more experience in racing compared to Lambo. And Toyota also have a very wide range of racing experience, from Baja, Formula Atlantic,Indy 500, Kart, Formula One, Le Mans, WRC, NASCAR, Pikes Peak, 24 Hours of Sebring and a grip more like SuperGT and such.

The few motorsport events Lamborghini has participated in were probably more respected than the hundreds of events Toyota has competed in. Lamborghini also sold some of their engines to other manufacturers for use in the Formula One business. Such things help build up the brand ("The _____ uses a Lamborghini V12!"). I believe Lotus and Lola were some of the more famous makes to make use of these motors. In a way, this is an extension of Lamborghini's participation in motorsport.

But yes, overall Toyota has more experience in motorsport than Lamborghini. However, Lamborghini has more motorsport heritage than Lexus - and we're talking about Lexus here, not Toyota (even though they're essentially the same thing... ).

And if what you say is true, then Porsche has absolutely nothing to worry about once the GT-R hits the streets. Or cars like Koenigsegg are nothing and don't sell. I think in premium high end sports cars the brand history has a big roll in it, but it's the experience that the drive feels from it is what's more important.

The Nissan GT-R is obviously a great sports car and a bargain in this class, but there will be people who won't even look at it as they're looking for a prestige performance car, which means Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, maybe the XK from Jaguar and the SL from Mercedes or the XLR from Cadillac. The GT-R will appeal to those who want something "affordable" that drives very well and who don't care about heritage.

Koenigsegg, Pagani, Panoz, TVR, Venturi, Covini, Antas, Cizeta, Bristol etc. are all small brands with virtually zero motorsport heritage and participation. And they do charge exorbitant prices for their product. True. But they're also incredibly low volume cars. Ferrari sells more cars than all those combined I should think. People with money are also willing to try new things, so it isn't uncommon for extremely wealthy people to experiment and try new things. Cultural aspects also play a part I should think. For example, Bristol cars only seem to appeal to British car enthusiasts. Outside of the UK, nobody cares much about them.

MB still carries a greater presence than Lexus not because of its heritage, heck some people in America may think they only go back to the 70's, lol. It's because MB still offers a better driving experience than Lexus does is why they are still above Lexus.

If there are people in America who think that MB started out in the 1970s, then it's no wonder that they rank Lexus above MB in terms of brand prestige...

Some Americans I've met thought MB was Japanese and BMW stood for "British Motor Works". Morons like this who participate in surveys screw up the whole thing...

The history that you know about MB is not common knowledge when people go to buy a car it's not something people know about.

It's common knowledge to me, hence my complaints about the "Lexus is on the same brand prestige level" talk...

[Sigma Projects]

Toyota has held pikes peak record lap for a really long time, in the US it's a big deal among rally racers. I believe someone is going to break it or just has in the past year, but it's been up there for like 7 years or something done in Rod Millen's 1000hp Celica. In WRC they took numerous titles in WRC up till the late 90's and they did it in both the Celica and the corolla. They've won many titles in World Series of Off Road Racing (WSORR) and Championship Off Road Racing (CORR). They took the 2003 Indianapolis 500. There are a lot more they've won too. Saying that it's only small fry racing is a major slap in the face really. I don't think these are "small" racing leagues. And if it's only based off of F1, which is very "prestigious" league, why doesn't Ferrari production cars do better in Le Mans? The last time I remember they took first in there class was back in 2003 and that was just one of the 550s and two C5Rs right on its tail with the second Ferrari far behind. But ever since then Ferrari has been behind the pack at Le Mans and usually finishes below Chevy or Aston. Even the mostly Japanese oriented Super GT Porsche Participates in the GT300 class, the lower class, and does fairly well. Either way in the GT500 class Toyota was doing very well until the GT-Rs came rolling out and seem to be kicking ass and taking names. Especially round 1 where the top finished GT-R took the lead by 25 seconds......

And no, I don't think Lambo has participated in racing leagues that would put it above Toyota. The new Bean counters at Toyota has only taken one decade to make people think Toyota only makes Camrys and Corollas and nothing else. Infusing more into Lexus will help both. Most people know Toyota/Lexus are the same company, but when people hear lexus or toyota they know it will be equipped differently even if it was a rebadge unlike what GM does with many of their cars.

Again, who is saying that Lexus is above MB in prestige??? I don't think anyone on here has said that?

2000 GT being a foreign design? The Enzo was basically designed by a Japanese person. It shouldn't matter where it came from, it's where the bill is filled. When Toyota wants to have a really great flow specs for the heads on their engines they have it sent to Yamaha to do their magic and sometimes they get Lotus to do some suspension work on their cars too. Just like Lotus got the 2ZZ-GE which is basically a Toyota/Yamaha motor. In the 80's Toyota provided some great sports cars that are legends in their own right right now. There is a good chance in the next decade they'll bring it back, but as of now they're pumping up Lexus with the LF-A which I'm sure will do great, unlike the IS-F, I got some resentment for that car, lol.

And your comment that just side steps saying that because it's new the rich will try it out. Well... that's being contradictory isn't it???? If it doesn't have Prestige why would they buy it? Because it's New? Well the LF-A is definitely something new as it will be toyota's first super car. And it coming from a very wealthy manufacturer I'd imagine it should be very interesting. I mean it could just turn into an utter flop when they actually bring it to production, but I doubt that.

Still I'd like to see who is saying Lexus is above MB in "prestige" maybe someone said Lexus are more reliable? Which they are, but that's about it. Toyota still has a ways to go with Lexus and the LF-A is a part of its progress, if they are charging near $200K it must mean that a grip of research/technology is going into the car. And there'll be more F versions (god I hate that letter) of their other cars in the future, hopefully better than the IS-F. I'm also in hopes that the R&D that's going into the LF-A will pave the road for a Supra come back that will have models that compete with the upcoming 370Z and higher end models competing with the C6 or C7 when it comes out.

[cawimmer430]

Toyota has held pikes peak record lap for a really long time, in the US it's a big deal among rally racers. I believe someone is going to break it or just has in the past year, but it's been up there for like 7 years or something done in Rod Millen's 1000hp Celica. In WRC they took numerous titles in WRC up till the late 90's and they did it in both the Celica and the corolla. They've won many titles in World Series of Off Road Racing (WSORR) and Championship Off Road Racing (CORR). They took the 2003 Indianapolis 500. There are a lot more they've won too. Saying that it's only small fry racing is a major slap in the face really. I don't think these are "small" racing leagues. And if it's only based off of F1, which is very "prestigious" league, why doesn't Ferrari production cars do better in Le Mans? The last time I remember they took first in there class was back in 2003 and that was just one of the 550s and two C5Rs right on its tail with the second Ferrari far behind. But ever since then Ferrari has been behind the pack at Le Mans and usually finishes below Chevy or Aston. Even the mostly Japanese oriented Super GT Porsche Participates in the GT300 class, the lower class, and does fairly well. Either way in the GT500 class Toyota was doing very well until the GT-Rs came rolling out and seem to be kicking ass and taking names. Especially round 1 where the top finished GT-R took the lead by 25 seconds......

And no, I don't think Lambo has participated in racing leagues that would put it above Toyota. The new Bean counters at Toyota has only taken one decade to make people think Toyota only makes Camrys and Corollas and nothing else. Infusing more into Lexus will help both. Most people know Toyota/Lexus are the same company, but when people hear lexus or toyota they know it will be equipped differently even if it was a rebadge unlike what GM does with many of their cars.

Again, who is saying that Lexus is above MB in prestige??? I don't think anyone on here has said that?

2000 GT being a foreign design? The Enzo was basically designed by a Japanese person. It shouldn't matter where it came from, it's where the bill is filled. When Toyota wants to have a really great flow specs for the heads on their engines they have it sent to Yamaha to do their magic and sometimes they get Lotus to do some suspension work on their cars too. Just like Lotus got the 2ZZ-GE which is basically a Toyota/Yamaha motor. In the 80's Toyota provided some great sports cars that are legends in their own right right now. There is a good chance in the next decade they'll bring it back, but as of now they're pumping up Lexus with the LF-A which I'm sure will do great, unlike the IS-F, I got some resentment for that car, lol.

And your comment that just side steps saying that because it's new the rich will try it out. Well... that's being contradictory isn't it???? If it doesn't have Prestige why would they buy it? Because it's New? Well the LF-A is definitely something new as it will be toyota's first super car. And it coming from a very wealthy manufacturer I'd imagine it should be very interesting. I mean it could just turn into an utter flop when they actually bring it to production, but I doubt that.

Still I'd like to see who is saying Lexus is above MB in "prestige" maybe someone said Lexus are more reliable? Which they are, but that's about it. Toyota still has a ways to go with Lexus and the LF-A is a part of its progress, if they are charging near $200K it must mean that a grip of research/technology is going into the car. And there'll be more F versions (god I hate that letter) of their other cars in the future, hopefully better than the IS-F. I'm also in hopes that the R&D that's going into the LF-A will pave the road for a Supra come back that will have models that compete with the upcoming 370Z and higher end models competing with the C6 or C7 when it comes out.

Ok, good post, good post. 

I know that Toyota has a long motorsport heritage but my impression was that a large portion of them was in races in Asia that were unheard off. I knew they did great in WRC and almost won Le Mans but that's about it. You don't hear much about Toyota participating in races that are famous, at least on this end of the world.

For the Lexus vs MB argument, go to Pure Luxury and check the IS-F speed thread. Start on page 1... 

[NomisR]

I thought the people who test drove the R8 found it to be a bore among cars of that pricing. Like it not being a bad performer, but just giving little excitement, relatively. But either way, I didn't mean driving experience directly relates to performance, it's the sounds, the feel, the way a car shifts, etc. or like a person turning off traction control in a F430. Like TVRs, they're mean machines, that have a unique style, but handle like crap, but are ballsy cars. I know there is a good chunk of buyers who only care about it making their penis larger, but I can't see how that the only buyers of high end exotics care nothing about the driving experience.

Well, there are those that do, and there are those that don't.  I'm sure the majority of the buyers out there don't care, they're just there for the bling.  They want something that's loud, obnoxious and unique. Unique is the main thing, they don't want the best selling, best performing thing, not even close.  They want to be different from everyone else without an imagination, that's why the supercars sells.  Those people are basically ricers with a lot more money.

And then, there are the enthusiasts that really pushes their cars and drives them the way they're meant to be driven. 

[JYODER240]

They don't. But just because they don't care doesn't mean they should rank Lexus above Mercedes in terms of brand prestige because that is utter bullshit. History and heritage show you which brand has more brand prestige outside of these people's make-believe-world...

History and heritage does not equal prestige. Like the analogy MrH used before. Ford has alot of history and heritage but no prestige. Lexus has little history and heritage but they have prestige. Quit being such a troll. You're the only one on here going around claiming that there some specific forumula for determining prestige. You're the only who keeps saying that Lexus can't have prestige because they need build cars for another 100years, win more races, etc.


We're talking about luxury cars here. Lexus comes in and thinks that by undercutting everyone in terms of price they will be viewed as a prestige brand that gives customers what they want while not charging anything for extras because everything is already standard. Such crap might work over in the US, but in other places luxury brands are generally viewed as having heritage and brand prestige. Lexus doesn't have it.

Fortunantly, it doesn't matter if you don't think Lexus has prestige. The vast majority of people will disagree with you. In the US atleast Lexus is viewed as a very prestigous brand. According to this survey the public views Lexus as being more prestigous than Mercedes. http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/080507/0394590.html. Why? Because most American's are not going to judge a brands prestige based on something completely irrelvant like what the brand did 50years ago. What the brand did at one time means nothing about there cars now.


Maybe when you go to college and take a business course you'll be introduced to the word "prestige pricing". There are many firms that do this and they're everywhere be it the wine business, guns etc. Many European firms rely on their heritage and history to overcharge. And many consumers view their history and heritage as a legitimate reason to pay so much for this product. Prestige pricing ain't bullshit, it's a fact.

Actually I have taken several business courses and I know what "prestige pricing" is. But it is extremely arrogant and pathetic. Let your products speak for themselves. If you're willing to pay an extra 15k so that your car will be more prestigeous then you probably have some self-confidence issues. If I find two equal cars why would I spend more money on one for something as silly as "prestige".

Trust me, if Lexus could overcharge, they would. They're already ripping people off with that ridiculous LS600h. The power of a V12 and the fuel economy of a V6. Pathetic marketing designed to appeal to stupid people who think an overweigt and overpowered LS is going to be a green car. The worst part is when this car is being compared to cars like the S600 or 760iL - both of which are never claimed to be green. Lexus is simply using this to make the LS600h look like the second coming of Christ. Pathetic.

Funny how much you hate everything Lexus yet you've never even driven one. What's the definention of a troll again? Lexus is very smart with their so called "pathetic" marketing. They recognized there was a market for the LS600h, they have marketed it to that segment well and are making money. Man, what idiots. You're bias is pathetic.

Pricing wise, Lexus is only playing it safe with something called "efficient pricing" which is the absolute maximum a customer is willing to pay for the product. Mercedes charges more - and people are willing to pay. Why?

Lexus prices their products where they do because they know it makes the most business sense for them to do so. Why would they charge more for a product when they know that a lower price point they will make a greater overall profit? Say what you want about Toyota and Lexus, while they don't make exciting cars, they know what the public wants and are making a killing off their current formula.

[Sigma Projects]

cawimmer430: thanks for the comment, I went to the IS-F thread and it looked like out of the 145 posts, only a couple said Lexus and MB are on the same level of prestige, but none said Lexus has a greater history. And the main argument is that it shouldn't be the final and only decision in selling a car.

NomisR: I'll keep my rose colored glasses on and think a good chunk of exotic owners bought it because they have fun driving the car

[NomisR]

cawimmer430: thanks for the comment, I went to the IS-F thread and it looked like out of the 145 posts, only a couple said Lexus and MB are on the same level of prestige, but none said Lexus has a greater history. And the main argument is that it shouldn't be the final and only decision in selling a car.

NomisR: I'll keep my rose colored glasses on and think a good chunk of exotic owners bought it because they have fun driving the car

haha, well, i'm just saying, majority of the ones I've met are just tools that don't know the first thing about driving or cars.  They buy them because they're bling and they have the money.  But there's are real car enthusiast of course, just a good portion of them aren't. 

[Sigma Projects]

Yea, you're probably right, just sad hearing about it. i guess since I hang around a lot of tuners and the owner of Toysport is one car fanatic with money. Get this, he got his hands on a Le mans carbon fiber intake manifold plumbed to work for twin turbo on a V8, straight off the race car! So he's going to see how well it will match up with the current toyota V8's and if it all works out he'll get a lexus bore out the V8 as far as he can go and strap the stucker on with twin turbos, lol.

[Vinsanity]

In the case of Lamborghini, he wanted to offer a product that would beat his rival Enzo's products. What's the magic word here? PASSION. He passionately wanted to slap Enzo in the face and tell him his Ferrari's are nothing compared to his Lamborghini's. This is how the rivalry between the two brands began and many people also viewed this with awe as it meant better performance cars for those who could afford them. Exorbitant pricing is part of what makes these cars appealing to so many who can afford them. They feel that they're purchasing something worth the money.

This sounds exactly like the ongoing rivalry between Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW. Lexus sought the opportunity to beat the establishment at their own game, and changed the scene as we know it. And if you don't think Lexus puts passion into building their cars, please refer to the famous early 1990's TV ads that touted the engineering of the vehicles (the ball bearing rolling down the seams of the car, the champagne glasses stacked on the hood of the car running on the dyno). These ads are what gave Lexus the perceived prestige level they hold today.

[AltinD]

This sounds exactly like the ongoing rivalry between Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW. Lexus sought the opportunity to beat the establishment at their own game, and changed the scene as we know it. And if you don't think Lexus puts passion into building their cars, please refer to the famous early 1990's TV ads that touted the engineering of the vehicles (the ball bearing rolling down the seams of the car, the champagne glasses stacked on the hood of the car running on the dyno). These ads are what gave Lexus the perceived prestige level they hold today.

ONLY in America ... not EVEN in Japan.

[NomisR]

This sounds exactly like the ongoing rivalry between Lexus, Mercedes, and BMW. Lexus sought the opportunity to beat the establishment at their own game, and changed the scene as we know it. And if you don't think Lexus puts passion into building their cars, please refer to the famous early 1990's TV ads that touted the engineering of the vehicles (the ball bearing rolling down the seams of the car, the champagne glasses stacked on the hood of the car running on the dyno). These ads are what gave Lexus the perceived prestige level they hold today.

Remember the Infiniti commercials when they were first introduced?  Man what were they thinking.. no wonder they did poorly even though they had better cars than Lexus. 

[Vinsanity]

Remember the Infiniti commercials when they were first introduced?  Man what were they thinking.. no wonder they did poorly even though they had better cars than Lexus. 

LOL...rocks and trees FTL.

At least the later ones with the British guy in the white room were better.

[cawimmer430]

History and heritage does not equal prestige. Like the analogy MrH used before. Ford has alot of history and heritage but no prestige. Lexus has little history and heritage but they have prestige. Quit being such a troll. You're the only one on here going around claiming that there some specific forumula for determining prestige. You're the only who keeps saying that Lexus can't have prestige because they need build cars for another 100years, win more races, etc.

I'm saying that the prestige of Lexus isn't on the same level as MB's and one reason is because of the histories of the two brands. Very simple.

Fortunantly, it doesn't matter if you don't think Lexus has prestige. The vast majority of people will disagree with you. In the US atleast Lexus is viewed as a very prestigous brand. According to this survey the public views Lexus as being more prestigous than Mercedes. http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/080507/0394590.html. Why? Because most American's are not going to judge a brands prestige based on something completely irrelvant like what the brand did 50years ago. What the brand did at one time means nothing about there cars now.

I know about this stupid survey and I personally think it is a crock of shit. Next thing you know Genesis offers an ass wiping machine on all their cars and boom, Genesis is more prestigeous than Porsche and Lexus and MB. 

Actually I have taken several business courses and I know what "prestige pricing" is. But it is extremely arrogant and pathetic. Let your products speak for themselves. If you're willing to pay an extra 15k so that your car will be more prestigeous then you probably have some self-confidence issues. If I find two equal cars why would I spend more money on one for something as silly as "prestige".

If you've taken businees courses then you can probably tell me why prestige pricing exists and why some people prefer it?

Part of what draws me personally to Mercedes is their history and heritage. As a little kid this stuff fascinated me and it still does. I learn new things about this brand everyday. The history and heritage of a brand is a very powerful tool and it also makes people aspire to own a certain brand. I become passionate when I read about my favorite brands past and their ongoing innovation etc. Say what you want about me (troll, moron, fucker, asshole etc.), but I consider myself a passionate MB fan and I feel I know a lot about their heritage and achievements.

With Lexus there is no such thing as history and heritage. There is nothing for me to get excited about when I hear the word Lexus because I know this company was created by Toyota and has no interesting or exciting history. Boring cars for the boring conservative crowd from day one is what Lexus did. Yawn....

Funny how much you hate everything Lexus yet you've never even driven one. What's the definention of a troll again? Lexus is very smart with their so called "pathetic" marketing. They recognized there was a market for the LS600h, they have marketed it to that segment well and are making money. Man, what idiots. You're bias is pathetic.

I've never driven a Lexus and I am honest about it. So what? Where do I make claims that I've driven a Lexus and can compare them to MB etc. Show me where I've made those claims.

Their cars strike me as boring. I've checked them out in detail at the Lexus dealership and I don't see what makes them so special. The IS and GS are so cramped on the inside it's not even funny. The LS has one of the most overrated and bland interiors I've ever seen. Sure, well made and decent materials but the design lacks simplistic elegance and there's too many buttons all over the place. Please don't tell me this thing gets top marks for interior ergonomics...

Troll? Funny how everyone calls me a troll. I think I've shown enough respect and tolerance and even enthusiasm for other brands. I am no friend or fan of Lexus but I realize their competition makes my favorite brand better. Don't get me started on brand prestige, we've been going over this for ages...


And what exactly is the market for the LS600h? Rich celebrities who want to make the masses think they're environmentally conscious because they drive a "hybrid"? Most people are so stupid and ignorant they have no idea how hybrids work. They hear the word "hybrid" and boom, they think the world is saved. Ask them to explain what a hybrid is and they'll tell you that it is the savior of mankind and a very fuel efficient car. Looks like the Toyota marketing goons did their work. Did you know that in the UK Toyota and Lexus had three hybrid marketing campgains BANNED because they were misleading the public about fuel economy claims?

It's funny how Lexus targets the S600, A8 W12 and 760iL as the competitors for the LS600h. In fact, it is VERY SMART. Clearly the LS600h gets itself another asshole drilled when it tries to take on these cars in performance (not that it matters), but in terms of fuel economy it is soooooooooooooooooo friggin green! Gosh, when I hear the name LS600h I think of horses galloping on a green grass field! I think of birds chirping and flying around in a place that looks like paradise! I think of a little girl putting her mouth on the exhaust of an LS600h and breathing in and then smiling at her mother. But all of a sudden this world falls apart and I see pollution and I see the horses and birds dying and the little girl and her mommy turning to ashes. Oh no, an evil S600 just drove by! Incredible what that car just did for the environment! Shame on Mercedes! Everyone should drive LS600h's and protect the planet! Yep, Lexus marketing sure worked on me!

The LS600h is one of the most pointless cars ever made. A rip off. Who cares if it is cleaner than an S600 or A8 W12? Mercedes or Audi never claim the S600 and A8 are green cars. Furthermore I suspect Lexus has sold more LS600h's in the US than Mercedes and Audi have sold S600 and A8 W12's combined.

[sportyaccordy]

What do you mean there is nothing to get excited about when you hear Lexus...

What about the CARS?

[Raza]

What do you mean there is nothing to get excited about when you hear Lexus...

What about the CARS?

The cars aren't exciting either. 

[CALL_911]

Wimmer, you go on about how MB makes exciting cars. The cars, sans the AMG cars, aren't much more exciting than an equivalent Lexus. I am not denying that they are better to drive, but that is FAR from the goal of MB. Since driving experience has to go on with prestige and whatnot, I hereby declare BMW more prestigious.