Small premium cars?

[sportyaccordy]

They have failed time and time again, from the Cimarron to the G20 to the Mitsubishi Carisma based S40. Lately though, mainstream manufacturers have been injecting some premium aspects into their once humdrum compact cars, like the Honda Civic EX-L Nav, the Mazda 3 and the forthcoming Ford Focus. And yet, luxury manufacturers keep pushing to get into the market, despite history showing their volumes will not be able to make it a truly profit making endeavor. What do you guys think?

Personally I think we stand to gain more from the bottom up (i.e. new Ford Focus) approach. Mainstream manufacturers can save $$$$ through volume while providing a generally higher quality car, whereas a luxury manufacturer will have to cobble bits and pieces together to make a car that just won't sell (at least in America. I know in Europe they have BMW 112d's). The prospect of something like a turbocharged, navi + leathered up, possibly 4WD stickshift Focus for about $25K excites me more than ANY other cars out now. The future is looking bright!

Will mainstream manufacturers be able to FINALLY bring some credibility to the small premium car?

[Jon?]

I think the problem for lux-makers is that their attempts are seen as cheapening the brand (at least in the US).

For mainstreamers, once you've thrown enough options at a small car (Focus) the price starts to make a roomier, 'nicer' car (Fusion) viable for the same price. 

[ifcar]

[sportyaccordy]

I think the problem for lux-makers is that their attempts are seen as cheapening the brand (at least in the US).

For mainstreamers, once you've thrown enough options at a small car (Focus) the price starts to make a roomier, 'nicer' car (Fusion) viable for the same price. 

I don't see how a stripper Fusion could be considered nicer than a fully loaded Focus just because of interior space. I think America needs to move away from its obsession with carniverous interiors equating to being luxurious.

[ifcar]

I don't see how a stripper Fusion could be considered nicer than a fully loaded Focus just because of interior space. I think America needs to move away from its obsession with carniverous interiors equating to being luxurious.

If that were all luxury seekers cared about, the 3-Series wouldn't be a huge seller.

A base Fusion is a nicer-feeling car than a loaded Focus today because a loaded Focus feels like a cheap car with leather seats, while the Fusion feels more substantial, higher-quality, and more comfortable -- because it is. That's not inherent to a larger car, of course, but it's easy to see why someone would make that choice given today's offerings. Few mainstream compacts billed as "premium" have done much to change that; the two I posted above are the first in years to really do something there, and they're both brand new models.

[Onslaught]

I don't see how a stripper Fusion could be considered nicer than a fully loaded Focus just because of interior space. I think America needs to move away from its obsession with carniverous interiors equating to being luxurious.

It's a better overall built car. It's larger and has more space in the trunk. Something the average person wants and many need.  A focus with all the bells and whistles is still a entry level small car.

[r0tor]

a fully optioned current focus is like putting lipstick on a pig... hopefully the next gen won't be as bad

[Jon?]

I don't see how a stripper Fusion could be considered nicer than a fully loaded Focus just because of interior space. I think America needs to move away from its obsession with carniverous interiors equating to being luxurious.

I don't know if I'd categorize the Fusion interior as cavernous.  Depends what you're using your car for.  If you're a single guy and never have anyone in the car with you, then a Focus might be fine.  If you intend to put people in the back, then having something a little bigger helps.  I need a larger trunk so I can haul people and golf clubs.  A Focus wouldn't work for me, even if it did have leather and NAV.  Maybe a Fusion would.

[GoCougs]

In the relatively (though far from pure) capitalistic US auto market, virtually no one would chose to buy a "premium" small car over a mid-level midsizer, hence, why virtually none are offered here.

"Premium" small cars exist because governments' Draconian taxation and regulation make them so. You do not want that on US shores under any pretenses or for any apparently benefit.

[93JC]

carniverous interiors

That's cavernous, not carnivorous.

[ifcar]

In the relatively (though far from pure) capitalistic US auto market, virtually no one would chose to buy a "premium" small car over a mid-level midsizer, hence, why virtually none are offered here.

"Premium" small cars exist because governments' Draconian taxation and regulation make them so. You do not want that on US shores under any pretenses or for any apparently benefit.

There's a huge market for luxury compact cars, and back when the VW Jetta was still a premium compact car (1999) its sales took off. People who want a nice car but don't need a huge interior and/or who want something small for urban conditions don't have too much to choose from in the low $20ks -- but that's not to say they wouldn't buy something there.

Sales won't challenge either a Camry or a Corolla, but they could be significant.

[Vinsanity]

That's cavernous, not carnivorous.

but I prefer my interiors to strictly be meat-eaters

[GoCougs]

There's a huge market for luxury compact cars, and back when the VW Jetta was still a premium compact car (1999) its sales took off. People who want a nice car but don't need a huge interior and/or who want something small for urban conditions don't have too much to choose from in the low $20ks -- but that's not to say they wouldn't buy something there.

Sales won't challenge either a Camry or a Corolla, but they could be significant.

I have to think that if there was a significance opportunity automakers would offer those cars here.

I challenge that people buy VW because they want ze German experience but can't afford MB, BMW or Audi.

[VTEC_Inside]

I hope that we start to see more options in the small car market, not just luxury features, but powertrains options as well.

If they built the Focus you described, I'd be interested as well, though I don't care as much for AWD.

In any case, luxury features on a small car are great, just don't under-power the thing to the point where I don't want to drive it for an hour on the highway each day. That's more a jab at cars like the Fit and Fiesta.

[cawimmer430]

I know in Europe they have BMW 112d's.

?

[2o6]

The S40 and G20 never failed.

[2o6]

I have to think that if there was a significance opportunity automakers would offer those cars here.

I challenge that people buy VW because they want ze German experience but can't afford MB, BMW or Audi.

Or, maybe they simply don't want it.




I find the Camry and Accord to be wasteful for a single person. If I had the money, I would spring for a similarly priced (but smaller and more rewarding to drive) Volvo S40 or Cooper Clubman.

[Raza]

I don't know if I'd categorize the Fusion interior as cavernous.  Depends what you're using your car for.  If you're a single guy and never have anyone in the car with you, then a Focus might be fine.  If you intend to put people in the back, then having something a little bigger helps.

Nor would I classify it as carnivorous.

I need a larger trunk so I can haul people and golf clubs.  A Focus wouldn't work for me, even if it did have leather and NAV.  Maybe a Fusion would.

Many compacts have large trunks.  For example, my Jetta has about as much trunk volume as the Fusion.  Also, I believe your friends will like you better if you don't put them in the trunk with your golf clubs. 

[sportyaccordy]

I have to think that if there was a significance opportunity automakers would offer those cars here.

I challenge that people buy VW because they want ze German experience but can't afford MB, BMW or Audi.

I agree with your point about the govts in Euroland dictating the direction of the market.

However this post I've quoted is just wrong...  though I will refrain in providing reasoning behind why you in particular would come to such a conclusion.

Quality issues aside, something like a VR6 GTI would be PERFECT for someone like me. I need something with a small profile that can carry groceries, things like bikes and occasionally people. I want something engaging to drive with a higher quality interior than a Civic or WRX. For me something like a Mini or GTI is perfect, and I see a lot of them around here. In an urban environment, for a single dude, something like a huge newish Accord sedan makes no sense.

Admittedly the market may be relatively niche.... but if Ford can convince people the new Focus will provide the experience and panache of the Germans low end at a better value, I think they will have a hit.

The current Focus is an econocar, but the next one looks legit in and out.

[cawimmer430]

Many compacts have large trunks. 

Yep.

And that's what makes them so popular in Europe. They're spacious inside, they have large trunks and their smaller size makes them ideal for city environments where parking is a hassle. With my sisters BMW 118i I really have no trouble parking in small spaces here. Try doing that with a Mercedes E320. 

The trunk of the 118i is also quite spacious. I should take a picture sometime after a food-shopping trip - because when I shop for food I make sure that it will last for a few months.

[sportyaccordy]

I admit, my view on what is 'premium' is skewed. My calibration of the levels of NVH that are acceptable are tuned so that my car is acceptable. I recently rode around in a 2010 Mazda 3 and was blown away by the way the suspension absorbed bumps,  and by how solid the whole structure felt. Cars have come a long way. Even a "bad" car like a Neon SRT-4 is a nice car to me.

[2o6]

The Neon SRT-4 was bad!??

[cawimmer430]

The Neon SRT-4 was bad!??

A 4-cylinder. No V8. Yes. It was bad.

[Jon?]

The Neon SRT-4 was bad!??

Driving around back-roads or to and from work it was okay.  Ten hour road-trips: bad.

[Onslaught]

The Neon SRT-4 was bad!??

All Neon's are bad. I don't care how fast some are it's still put together like crap.

[ifcar]

I have to think that if there was a significance opportunity automakers would offer those cars here.

I challenge that people buy VW because they want ze German experience but can't afford MB, BMW or Audi.

Automakers always get everything right, of course.

And many have tried to offer such cars here, and failed on the execution rather the concept.

[GoCougs]

I agree with your point about the govts in Euroland dictating the direction of the market.

However this post I've quoted is just wrong...  though I will refrain in providing reasoning behind why you in particular would come to such a conclusion.

Quality issues aside, something like a VR6 GTI would be PERFECT for someone like me. I need something with a small profile that can carry groceries, things like bikes and occasionally people. I want something engaging to drive with a higher quality interior than a Civic or WRX. For me something like a Mini or GTI is perfect, and I see a lot of them around here. In an urban environment, for a single dude, something like a huge newish Accord sedan makes no sense.

Admittedly the market may be relatively niche.... but if Ford can convince people the new Focus will provide the experience and panache of the Germans low end at a better value, I think they will have a hit.

The current Focus is an econocar, but the next one looks legit in and out.

You may like the car, but are you in a position to buy a new $25k - $30k car? The reality is your demographic (young single male urbanite) is in the same position; meaning you and others like you would likely not be buying such a car new (and not much of any other demographic would either).

In Europe these cars are sold in place of CamCords (i.e., non enthusiasts).

Automakers always get everything right, of course.

And many have tried to offer such cars here, and failed on the execution rather the concept.

Sometimes it's a disaster (Aztek) and sometimes it's better than expected (Camaro) but yeah, they pretty much almost always get it right.

Not many of your CamCord buyers are going to opt for a gussied up Focus or Civic of the same approximate cost.

[2o6]

You may like the car, but are you in a position to buy a new $25k - $30k car? The reality is your demographic (young single male urbanite) is in the same position; meaning you and others like you would likely not be buying such a car new (and not much of any other demographic would either).


How would YOU know what he makes? Even so, he's been toying around with the idea of buying another car.

In Europe these cars are sold in place of CamCords (i.e., non enthusiasts).

Upscale compacts when decontented are just regular compacts. Even so, they are not as strong sellers in comparison to regular midsizers and compacts.

[ifcar]

Sometimes it's a disaster (Aztek) and sometimes it's better than expected (Camaro) but yeah, they pretty much almost always get it right.

Not many of your CamCord buyers are going to opt for a gussied up Focus or Civic of the same approximate cost.

I never said they would. Different target market. And a Civic with leather seats isn't a premium compact.

[2o6]

For someone who values free choice and letting the market decide what it wants, you sure are contradictory.