C&D 535i vs M37 vs A6 3.0T

[Colonel Cadillac]

I'm on the drunk side, so please don't be expecting good sentences.

[Colonel Cadillac]

It does seem there is reason to doubt the results. Why does the multiple year old Audi beat the brand new BMW?  The sited forum seems to doubt the results and still side with BMW (bias, most likely...however?)

[cawimmer430]

I think it's obvious that BMW is just reacting to the market. Most people buying the 5er do so not because it's one of the most dynamically capable car in its class, but because of the badge and subsequent status/need it fulfills. It's for these people, the vast majority, that BMW has decided to make the F10 5er a bit "softer". Most reviews do state that it still handles and drives great in this form. I also think that most "drivers" will probably eye the smaller 1er or 3er as those make far better driving machines than a 5er ever will be (weight issues etc.).

Enthusiasts are still getting a great sports sedan. They simply have to order the dynamic package and they'll get their "Ultimate Driving Machine". And knowing enthusiasts, they'll be prepared to pay for this dynamic package. Or in some rather rare cases possibly head over to Infiniti etc.

[AltinD]

It does seem there is reason to doubt the results. Why does the multiple year old Audi beat the brand new BMW?  The sited forum seems to doubt the results and still side with BMW (bias, most likely...however?)

The A6 is a new car

[CALL_911]

The A6 is a new car

The C6 A6 was released in 2005 in the US. It was recently refreshed, not new.

[ifcar]

"I don't think VW is too far off base with any of it. They have no idea how to do cost controlling, but otherwise, they make some decent vehicles. Heck, when the (B5, B5.5) Passat was still "cheap," it was largely considered the best car in its class. Price aside, it still might be somewhere up there."

I think anyone could make a good car if they charged a ridiculous amount of money for it. Weren't you the one saying that about Chrysler?

[Raza]

The 2.0 liter VW engine has a ridiculous amount of lag, I estimate about a second for when I plant my foot and work is done for the engine.

Is it the only turbo engine you've ever driven?  Or are you just a gear too high?  From automobile:

If you ignore the extremely minor (even to me, the hater of all things turbocharged) turbo lag, you'd never know that the GTI is turbocharged. Except that you'd never get this much torque out of this small of an engine. Floor it at 2000 rpm. Major thrust. 4000? Same deal. 5000? Yup. 6000. Uh-huh. Question it with a stab of your right foot, and the answer is always the same: lots of push-you-back-in-the-seat torque.

And I'm sure I could find a half dozen more examples that say about the same.

I love the engine, I think it's phenomenal.

The 3.0T has got to be really good, I really want to drive it.

My family has had many turbo cars so I am fond of them. I love my NA 3.1 engine, had a great time with the 2.7T engine, and the M35x engine is fun, but way too loud and the M is not that great of a car. It drives particularly well, but it is literally falling apart and I would like for my dad to get the new A6 when it comes out.

Oh, so you do have turbo experience...

[Raza]

I think it's obvious that BMW is just reacting to the market. Most people buying the 5er do so not because it's one of the most dynamically capable car in its class, but because of the badge and subsequent status/need it fulfills. It's for these people, the vast majority, that BMW has decided to make the F10 5er a bit "softer". Most reviews do state that it still handles and drives great in this form. I also think that most "drivers" will probably eye the smaller 1er or 3er as those make far better driving machines than a 5er ever will be (weight issues etc.).

Enthusiasts are still getting a great sports sedan. They simply have to order the dynamic package and they'll get their "Ultimate Driving Machine". And knowing enthusiasts, they'll be prepared to pay for this dynamic package. Or in some rather rare cases possibly head over to Infiniti etc.

BMW is losing a lot of marketshare to Audi these days.  I think they need to rethink their direction.

[sportyaccordy]

I think it's obvious that BMW is just reacting to the market. Most people buying the 5er do so not because it's one of the most dynamically capable car in its class, but because of the badge and subsequent status/need it fulfills. It's for these people, the vast majority, that BMW has decided to make the F10 5er a bit "softer". Most reviews do state that it still handles and drives great in this form. I also think that most "drivers" will probably eye the smaller 1er or 3er as those make far better driving machines than a 5er ever will be (weight issues etc.).

Enthusiasts are still getting a great sports sedan. They simply have to order the dynamic package and they'll get their "Ultimate Driving Machine". And knowing enthusiasts, they'll be prepared to pay for this dynamic package. Or in some rather rare cases possibly head over to Infiniti etc.

Wow what a tragedy. Next up, the 3 series will be made to compete with the Accord and Camry, offering the same content & driving experience at a 100% price premium for H&H^TM, badge tax and status upgrades...

[2o6]

Wow what a tragedy. Next up, the 3 series will be made to compete with the Accord and Camry, offering the same content & driving experience at a 100% price premium for H&H^TM, badge tax and status upgrades...

Too late.

In Europe, lower level 3-series and C-classes compete with Mondeos and Insignias despite being smaller, slower, and lesser equipped.

[AltinD]

I think anyone could make a good car if they charged a ridiculous amount of money for it. Weren't you the one saying that about Chrysler?

Oh please, you pay the most ridiculously low prices in the universe and have the nerve to complain about it.

[MX793]

Oh please, you pay the most ridiculously low prices in the universe and have the nerve to complain about it.

Part of the reason our car prices are so much lower is because taxes are much lower.  Also keep in mind that because sales tax (or VAT if you prefer to call it that) varies not only by state, but in many cases by county within any given state (and in some places in the US, there is no sales tax but they charge much higher annual registration/licensing fees instead), carmakers advertise prices without any taxes added in.  In contrast, it's common in Europe and other parts of the world advertise prices including any sales/VAT taxes.  So in reality, our car prices are higher than advertised once you include taxes, though still quite a bit less than most of the rest of the developed world.

[the Teuton]

"I don't think VW is too far off base with any of it. They have no idea how to do cost controlling, but otherwise, they make some decent vehicles. Heck, when the (B5, B5.5) Passat was still "cheap," it was largely considered the best car in its class. Price aside, it still might be somewhere up there."

I think anyone could make a good car if they charged a ridiculous amount of money for it. Weren't you the one saying that about Chrysler?

Compared to similar models in its class, Audi is doing fine. I'm not sure what your point is.

[cawimmer430]

Wow what a tragedy. Next up, the 3 series will be made to compete with the Camry...

Well the V6 Camry could use some competition... 

[cawimmer430]

In Europe, lower level 3-series and C-classes compete with Mondeos and Insignias despite being smaller, slower, and lesser equipped.

You can get stripper Mondeo's and Insignia's here to. You can virtually get a stripper version of almost every car sold in Europe.

[the Teuton]

Can you get this Dynamic package without Active Steering?

[sportyaccordy]

You can get stripper Mondeo's and Insignia's here to. You can virtually get a stripper version of almost every car sold in Europe.

But a stripped C160 Diesel will cost 30% more than a similarly equipped Insignia 1.6D

[ifcar]

Oh please, you pay the most ridiculously low prices in the universe and have the nerve to complain about it.

So because all prices are lower, we shouldn't mind the fact that one car is much more than the others?

[sportyaccordy]

Ironically, where prices are significantly higher, people seem to care more about prestige and brand name than value

Maybe the cheaper cars are the more you're supposed to care

[cawimmer430]

But a stripped C160 Diesel will cost 30% more than a similarly equipped Insignia 1.6D

There's no such thing as a C160 Diesel. The smallest diesel C-Class is the C200 CDI with 135-horsepower. It starts at ? 34,123 (including the German VAT of 19%).


W204 C-Class price list

http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/media_library/germany/mpc_germany/de/mercedes-benz_deutschland/pkw_emb_nextgen/neufahrzeuge/c-klasse/preislisten_pdf/pkw_c-klasse_limousine.object-Single-MEDIA.download.tmp/Preisliste_C_Klasse_Limousine_100416.pdf

[Raza]

And 135bhp is more than anyone could every want or need in any sort of car, SUV, boat, or plane.

[Jon?]

And 135bhp is more than anyone could every want or need in any sort of car, SUV, boat, or plane.

My laptop has 640k of RAM...

[Raza]

My laptop has 640k of RAM...

I still use a 14.4kbps modem.  I don't need the internet any faster than that, nor do I want it. 

[sportyaccordy]

There's no such thing as a C160 Diesel. The smallest diesel C-Class is the C200 CDI with 135-horsepower. It starts at ? 34,123 (including the German VAT of 19%).


W204 C-Class price list

http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/media_library/germany/mpc_germany/de/mercedes-benz_deutschland/pkw_emb_nextgen/neufahrzeuge/c-klasse/preislisten_pdf/pkw_c-klasse_limousine.object-Single-MEDIA.download.tmp/Preisliste_C_Klasse_Limousine_100416.pdf

Hyperbole eludes you

Point being a Benz loaded up for taxi service still comes at a price premium to a similarly equipped proletariat branded car within the same class

Somewhat justifiable on the high end where MB is able to display all their technologies but somewhat hard to rationalize w/roll up windows, AM/FM only radios and cloth seats

[cawimmer430]

Hyperbole eludes you

Point being a Benz loaded up for taxi service still comes at a price premium to a similarly equipped proletariat branded car within the same class

Somewhat justifiable on the high end where MB is able to display all their technologies but somewhat hard to rationalize w/roll up windows, AM/FM only radios and cloth seats

It's still a Mercedes. Of course it's going to be more expensive than even a stripper Ford or Citroen. These cars have other qualities which people are willing to pay for such as perceived safety etc. With any Mercedes, you're paying for the name. 

And the C-Class makes a poor taxi because it's not the most spacious. You don't see many C-Class taxis here at all except for the W202 once in awhile. I've only seen a handful of W203 taxis and only one W204.

[sportyaccordy]

With any Mercedes, you're paying for the name. 

As long as we're clear on this, and acknowledge that beyond the name there are no tangible or appreciable differences at the low end, I'm OK

[nickdrinkwater]

I can't think of any reason to take the A6 over the 5 Series so I'm surprised it beats the BMW in this 'test'.

[Vinsanity]

I still use a 14.4kbps modem.  I don't need the internet any faster than that, nor do I want it. 

but thanks to H&H?, your web browsing experience is that much more enjoyable

[AltinD]

So because all prices are lower, we shouldn't mind the fact that one car is much more than the others?

First of all, that car is manufactured in another country and therefore by default will be more expensive when shipping charges and import taxes are added. Plus that specific car is not build as cheaply as those you mentioned and it is enginered for 155 MPH driving, not 108 ... I mean 65.

It is simply a more upscale car then the camcords and therefore it has to cost more.

[Raza]

Again with the speed limit argument.  I thought we put that thing to rest once and for all.