2011 BMW 520d: four-cylinder engine and 57.6mpg

[Raza]

On problem I see with the 335D is nobody really knows about it.  Unlike VW and Audi I've yet to see BMW air an ad for diesel. 

I have.  And I'd strongly consider a 335d had they offered it with a manual. 

[cawimmer430]

It's not the statistics, its wondering whether or not the acceleration + performance will be adequate. How often do you load up a car with like 5 passengers and their luggage? You don't want a car that will go from just being adequate to a complete dog once it's loaded up. It doesn't help that Americans are generally fatter than Europeans either. It's a legitimate complaint.

Honestly, the performance of a loaded GL320 CDI won't be any much different from a loaded up GL550 given that the extra shit people bring on board will add weight. Both engines will burn more fuel and have to work harder to compensate. The GL320 CDI and GL550 will both become slower and more sluggish if they're fully loaded/overloaded etc.

And "weak and underpowered cars" (by American standards) can perform just as well. When my sister finished college I helped her transport all her stuff from Bruchsal to M?hldorf - about 350 km worth of Autobahn driving - in her BMW 118i with 143-horsepower. The whole car was filled with stuff. Her kitchen glasses, plates etc., lamps, printer, books...HEAVY STUFF. So in the end, the whole car (trunk, rear seats and her lap) were filled with stuff and I had zero noticeable problems overtaking or merging on the highway with an overloaded car. Braking performance did suffer though.

I guarantee if European countries lifted the prohibitive laws and taxes that make gas so expensive, your engine choices would more mirror those of America and Australia.

I don't think so. Most Europeans I know buy cars based on the performance they need, not want.

Sure, it's fun to drive a really powerful car. But even on a daily basis it becomes a pain in the ass having to constantly refill it etc. (despite theoretical cheap gas prices). We grow up with the mentality of "living within our needs".

Also, the American philosophy of "Big = Better" doesn't apply here. We don't think that way with cars and engines.

Europeans buy the smallest engines they can bear because that is what they can afford, not because that's what they want.

There are many extremely wealthy people in Europe who could buy a fleet of exorbitant and heavily overpriced vehicles if they wanted to - but they drive simple S350 CDI's or an E350 CDI for example. I know a filthy rich baroness who lives in a castle in my area in M?hldorf and she drives a base model Volkswagen Golf IV SDI (naturally aspirated diesel). She could buy a Veyron if she wanted to, but she drives a Golf SDI (not even a TDI). Europeans are more conservative when it comes to "showing off their wealth".

My dad could have bought an E55 AMG or an E500 - but the E320 made more sense for us. A good mix between power and fuel economy, the latter which the E55 AMG and E500 fail in.

[GoCougs]

Again, if America had European-style Draconian fuel and automotive taxation we too would be driving 150 hp E-classes and 5ers.

It makes no sense to buy such cars in America which is EXACTLY why neither M-B nor BMW offer those cars here - they'd flop something fierce.

[Raza]

There are many extremely wealthy people in Europe who could buy a fleet of exorbitant and heavily overpriced vehicles if they wanted to - but they drive simple S350 CDI's or an E350 CDI for example. I know a filthy rich baroness who lives in a castle in my area in M?hldorf and she drives a base model Volkswagen Golf IV SDI (naturally aspirated diesel). She could buy a Veyron if she wanted to, but she drives a Golf SDI (not even a TDI). Europeans are more conservative when it comes to "showing off their wealth".

My dad could have bought an E55 AMG or an E500 - but the E320 made more sense for us. A good mix between power and fuel economy, the latter which the E55 AMG and E500 fail in.

This is incongruous with your focus on badges.  Europeans seem extremely image conscious.  

Perhaps the baroness is worried about the vulgarity of her wealth, and the attention and animosity that comes with driving an expensive car.  Either that, or she's not as rich as you may think. 

[2o6]

This is incongruous with your focus on badges.  Europeans seem extremely image conscious.  

Perhaps the baroness is worried about the vulgarity of her wealth, and the attention and animosity that comes with driving an expensive car.  Either that, or she's not as rich as you may think. 

My mother told me about this type of thinking. She lived in France for a short time, and the amount of pretentiousness and "I HAVE to have Chanel (ect), it doesn't matter how much it costs" is quite abundant. People will only have the best, and the most luxurious......even if they can't afford it. Women's wardrobes are smaller, but much, much higher quality.

[Mustangfan2003]

I have.  And I'd strongly consider a 335d had they offered it with a manual. 

I must have missed it.  Oh yeah one little tidbit the Lincoln Mark VII actually offered a BMW I6 diesel but those cars are very rare. 

[the Teuton]

I must have missed it.  Oh yeah one little tidbit the Lincoln Mark VII actually offered a BMW I6 diesel but those cars are very rare. 

[Mustangfan2003]

Oh yeah and about a year ago I saw a Peugeot 505 diesel parked at my school, looking at the body of that car you would've thought they pulled it out of a lake.

[cawimmer430]

Again, if America had European-style Draconian fuel and automotive taxation we too would be driving 150 hp E-classes and 5ers.

And maybe then Americans might realize that these cars are also completely adequate and not underpowered or slow. 

You often hear Americans on www.germancarforum.com talk about their positive experiences with rental cars in Europe, including 150-hp (well 170hp now) E220 CDI's etc. What do they say? These cars would actually satisfy a demand in the US for fuel economy and completely satisfactory performance. 

It's difficult to assess what most Europeans would choose to drive if we didn't have these laws. Again, we grow up with the mentality about "using just enough of what we need, not all of it" etc.

[cawimmer430]

This is incongruous with your focus on badges.  Europeans seem extremely image conscious.

Brand image is big here, and many Europeans are image conscious when it comes to their cars. At the same time people are conservative in their engine choices for a number of reasons: social jealousy (big here in Germany, which also ties into people being conservative), the engine tax laws and lastly the belief in driving something that is completely adequate to their needs. Also, luxury in Europe isn't about who has the biggest engine - it's also about the brand experience (history & heritage, reputation etc.).

Social jealousy is an interesting phenomenon in Germany. Basically, people will think negatively of you if you drive a say E63 AMG, but they'll perceive you as being conservative if you show up in an E220 CDI or perhaps an E350. One of my father's friend has a small successful business with a dozen employees or so and he had a C209 CLK500 Convertible - but he had a "CLK200 Kompressor" badge mounted at the rear because he didn't want his employees to think he was bragging, showing off. With a CLK200 Kompressor, people won't bitch. With a CLK500, they're going to perceive him as a show off. It's a little hard to explain, but social jealousy is a strange factor pretty much only confined to Germany of all nations in Western Europe. 

Perhaps the baroness is worried about the vulgarity of her wealth, and the attention and animosity that comes with driving an expensive car.  Either that, or she's not as rich as you may think. 

I know the baroness personally. And she struck me as a conservative person who drives that Golf SDI because she doesn't want to buy a car that she won't need. She's in her mid 70s. She lives alone in her castle with a few, well, servants, I guess, but they're actually just locals who work for her, do her gardening etc.

And trust me, she's quite wealthy.

[cawimmer430]

I must have missed it.  Oh yeah one little tidbit the Lincoln Mark VII actually offered a BMW I6 diesel but those cars are very rare. 

http://www.luxusdiesel.de/lincoln_diesel.shtml

[Hachee]

First of all, most Americans are NOT obsessed with 0-60 times.  Most just want adequate acceleration for their needs.  This is why MOST versions of models are sold with the base engines.  I don't know the exact numbers, but, for example, I'd guess the ratio of E350s to E550s sold here is 4:1.  And as for power, my X5 3.0 is a family car.  I've never once felt the power was not sufficient.  Why would I need, or even want, a V8 version of this car? 

You will never see lots of people buying diesels or even hybrids here until gas is back over $4 gallon and stays there.  $5 to $8 per gallon, and you diesels and hybrids and base models will be flying out the door.

And the inverse is true - if gas was cheap in Europe (and cars were not taxed based on engine size or CO2 or whatever, you'd all be buying more of the larger engined models....and bigger cars and even more SUVs. 

I've said this a million times - people like the same shit all over the world.  They only buy different stuff because of pricing/affordability.   

[GoCougs]

And maybe then Americans might realize that these cars are also completely adequate and not underpowered or slow. 

You often hear Americans on www.germancarforum.com talk about their positive experiences with rental cars in Europe, including 150-hp (well 170hp now) E220 CDI's etc. What do they say? These cars would actually satisfy a demand in the US for fuel economy and completely satisfactory performance. 

It's difficult to assess what most Europeans would choose to drive if we didn't have these laws. Again, we grow up with the mentality about "using just enough of what we need, not all of it" etc.

The very, very simply question remains: then why don't MB and BMW sell those cars here?

[Cookie Monster]

Wimmer, as we've said before (many times) those cars wouldn't sell here just because they'd be too slow with our terrible road planning. Those cars would be sitting ducks on on and off ramps on highways here.

[850CSi]

You often hear Americans on www.germancarforum.com talk about their positive experiences with rental cars in Europe, including 150-hp (well 170hp now) E220 CDI's etc. What do they say? These cars would actually satisfy a demand in the US for fuel economy and completely satisfactory performance. 

There's a massive selection bias at play here.

[68_427]

Wait when was the name changed from GermanCarZone?

[nickdrinkwater]

I guarantee if European countries lifted the prohibitive laws and taxes that make gas so expensive, your engine choices would more mirror those of America and Australia.

I don't know about mainland Europe but in the UK, diesel is more expensive than gasoline.  So it's not fuel prices driving sales of diesel cars here.

[sportyaccordy]

Lol I don't know where to start with Wim's posts.

- So Europeans play the game of going with expensive brands at all costs, but playing modesty with engine size. I think that just goes back to the prohibitive cost of fuel.

- I bet the baroness more than anything wants to hide her wealth, as paradoxically while brand choice is huge, showing off is shunned (?????)

- I still stand by my point that if Europeans could afford the gas, they would not buy 1.0L diesel Polos. Your sister's car is of adequate performance- it's faster than a Corolla/Camry most likely, and I would say those are performance benchmarks for America... not exactly blistering machines here. But for a luxury car, a truly luxury car, the standards are higher. Why pay $20K more for a Benz with the performance and equipment of a 4 banger Camry? Makes no sense. So on the luxury end the demands are higher.

[cawimmer430]

The very, very simply question remains: then why don't MB and BMW sell those cars here?

There's talk of bringing over the E250 CDI (2.1-l 4-cylinder turbodiesel) to the US. By all accounts, it looks like it will come over.

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, as we've said before (many times) those cars wouldn't sell here just because they'd be too slow with our terrible road planning. Those cars would be sitting ducks on on and off ramps on highways here.

How do your trucks merge unto highways?

[AltinD]

As if a Camry is the same vehicle as the mercedes you are comparing it to

[cawimmer430]

There's a massive selection bias at play here.

I don't see how.

Not everyone there has a German car. There are tons of people there who own Japanese, German, Korean (and German of course) cars, but they're simply being open-minded about other cars with smaller and weaker engines. The bottom line is that these people feel that these cars are completely satisfactory from a performance point of view.

And not everyone cares about performance. Fuel economy and other features carry far more weight with some people than silly little 0-60 numbers.

[cawimmer430]

Wait when was the name changed from GermanCarZone?

Some website was about to sue GermanCarZone because of some name infringements. Therefore the name was changed to GermanCarForum. 

[cawimmer430]

- So Europeans play the game of going with expensive brands at all costs, but playing modesty with engine size. I think that just goes back to the prohibitive cost of fuel.

I understand that luxury in America is about excess and therefore the performance of the car has to be excessive. In Europe this isn't the case. People are more conservative to begin with and also choose their engine based on "their needs" (and of course finances).

Also, if the cost of fuel is so high here, how do you explain the fact that there are many people here who drive "overpowered" luxury cars? There are also many filthy rich people here who could buy say an S600 and the fuel bills wouldn't dent their finances one bit - but they drive an S350 CDI instead. In this regard, finances play a secondary role. These people simply buy the luxury car and the engine that best suits their needs. A luxury car here is already a very prestigious item because of the badge.

Many Europeans buy cars based on their performance needs, that includes luxury cars. A small engine in a luxury car here is nothing to be ashamed about. A weaker engine doesn't make it any less luxurious than the same car with a bigger engine. Furthermore, what good is a more powerful engine that uses more fuel and is a bit quicker? I mean both the weaker and more powerful, say an E-Class E220 CDI and E500, will be limited to the same speed limits on the roads, highways etc. Both cars already have a top speed in excess of 125 mph and you can hardly drive faster than that on most Autobahns these days given the heavy traffic. Am I really going to shed out more money for an E500 because it reaches 125 mph faster than an E220 CDI? Fuck no. I'll buy the E220 CDI, which isn't a slow car, because its performance is completely satisfactory, it gets good gas mileage and it can almost reach a 155 mph top speed and is also cheaper to run than the E500. And I am literally driving the same car as the E500, just with a weaker engine. Big deal.

Oh, and nobody here will give a shit if a cheaper VW Golf GTI is faster to 100 km/h than their E220 CDI (aka "A Honda Accord V6 is faster to 60 mph than [Insert Overpriced European Luxury Car Here]..."). If somebody was so silly as to care about such a silly thing, they wouldn't buy an E220 CDI. It's that simple.

[sportyaccordy]

I understand that luxury in America is about excess and therefore the performance of the car has to be excessive. In Europe this isn't the case. People are more conservative to begin with and also choose their engine based on "their needs" (and of course finances).

Most American luxury car buyers go with the smallest engine available. It just so happens that our small engine choices are your big engine choices, primarily because gasoline is about 3x cheaper here.

Also, if the cost of fuel is so high here, how do you explain the fact that there are many people here who drive "overpowered" luxury cars? There are also many filthy rich people here who could buy say an S600 and the fuel bills wouldn't dent their finances one bit - but they drive an S350 CDI instead. In this regard, finances play a secondary role. These people simply buy the luxury car and the engine that best suits their needs. A luxury car here is already a very prestigious item because of the badge.

It has nothing to do with their needs. You already said why Europeans go with smaller engines even when they can afford more- they don't want to be subject to the jealous rage of the proletariat. I can't find the post but just recently you talked about some business owner who debadged his CLK500 to a 200 Kompressor to not be subject to bad treatment from his employees. That's the real driver here, not 'adequate performance'. If that were the case they would just buy a Renault Twingo or w/e.

Many Europeans buy cars based on their performance needs, that includes luxury cars. A small engine in a luxury car here is nothing to be ashamed about. A weaker engine doesn't make it any less luxurious than the same car with a bigger engine. Furthermore, what good is a more powerful engine that uses more fuel and is a bit quicker? I mean both the weaker and more powerful, say an E-Class E220 CDI and E500, will be limited to the same speed limits on the roads, highways etc. Both cars already have a top speed in excess of 125 mph and you can hardly drive faster than that on most Autobahns these days given the heavy traffic. Am I really going to shed out more money for an E500 because it reaches 125 mph faster than an E220 CDI? Fuck no. I'll buy the E220 CDI, which isn't a slow car, because its performance is completely satisfactory, it gets good gas mileage and it can almost reach a 155 mph top speed and is also cheaper to run than the E500. And I am literally driving the same car as the E500, just with a weaker engine. Big deal.

Again we know you guys have better off ramps than we do which is fine. But to discount the fact that excess power is just as valid a luxury as heated leather seating is silly. Breathtaking + effortless performance is a luxury too and is a big part of why Americans like cars like the E class and 5 series over something relatively anemic like an automatic 4 banger Camry. When there's not much distinction beyond a brand name, car-wise Americans won't pay that premium.

Oh, and nobody here will give a shit if a cheaper VW Golf GTI is faster to 100 km/h than their E220 CDI (aka "A Honda Accord V6 is faster to 60 mph than [Insert Overpriced European Luxury Car Here]..."). If somebody was so silly as to care about such a silly thing, they wouldn't buy an E220 CDI. It's that simple.

Obviously as nobody would cross shop the two cars. But if someone were cross shopping an E220 CDI, and happened to test drive an equally priced GS350 & saw that the GS had infinitely better performance + engine response you don't think that would make an impression? While I know in Europe foreign cars are taxed to high hell to be made uncompetitive, here the playing field is level, gas is cheap and performance matters.

Like I keep saying... if petrol wasn't taxed to $8 a gallon, and Europeans weren't so violently jealous of success, your automotive landscape would look a lot like ours. I guarantee it

[GoCougs]

There's talk of bringing over the E250 CDI (2.1-l 4-cylinder turbodiesel) to the US. By all accounts, it looks like it will come over.

Nah, there will be no diesel-4 E-class in America; and why haven't M-B and BMW sold their cheapo diesels here in the recent past?

The extremely few American who will buy a 150 hp diesel E-class or 5er are of the same mindset of the people who buy hybrids; they are doing so ignoring the financial and performance attributes of the product - meaning; they're paying more and getting less.

[Raza]

I understand that luxury in America is about excess

I'm going to stop you right there.  Luxury everywhere is about excess.  Otherwise it's not luxury.  

lux?u?ry   [luhk-shuh-ree, luhg-zhuh-]  Show IPA noun, plural -ries, adjective
?noun
1.a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity: Gold cufflinks were a luxury not allowed for in his budget.
2.free or habitual indulgence in or enjoyment of comforts and pleasures in addition to those necessary for a reasonable standard of well-being: a life of luxury on the french Riviera.
3.a means of ministering to such indulgence or enjoyment: This travel plan gives you the luxury of choosing which countries you can visit.
4.a pleasure out of the ordinary allowed to oneself: the luxury of an extra piece of the cake.
5.a foolish or worthless form of self-indulgence: the luxury of self-pity.

I don't know how many more times I can so clearly state this to you.

[sportyaccordy]

Is luxury defined as the norm in Europe? But luxury has to be practical... Wim you're not making sense

[2o6]

Luxury in Europe is defined as "High Quality".

[mzziaz]

Luxury in Europe is defined as "High Quality".

Ya, i think you are on to something. At least for some Europeans I believe part of luxury is high quailty and less is more, as opposed to just more of everything.

Another cultural difference touched upon in this thread, is that some Europeans (especially Northern Yurps/Germanics) find it a bit....vulgar to flaunt one?s wealth if one is truly well off. You will often find very rich people driving pretty ordinary cars. If they get premium cars, they will often choose medium sized engines or at least a badge delete, for example as opposed to someone from the aspiring working class. They will gladly drive a (older) S600 with large V12 badges on it.