2011 BMW 520d: four-cylinder engine and 57.6mpg

[Cookie Monster]

How do your trucks merge unto highways?

Very slowly, by making everyone else slow down for them.

It wouldn't be very fun if EVERYONE drove a car that accelerated at the rate of a truck, would it?

[sportyaccordy]

Ya, i think you are on to something. At least for some Europeans I believe part of luxury is high quailty and less is more, as opposed to just more of everything.

Another cultural difference touched upon in this thread, is that some Europeans (especially Northern Yurps/Germanics) find it a bit....vulgar to flaunt one?s wealth if one is truly well off. You will often find very rich people driving pretty ordinary cars. If they get premium cars, they will often choose medium sized engines or at least a badge delete, for example as opposed to someone from the aspiring working class. They will gladly drive a (older) S600 with large V12 badges on it.

[Onslaught]

Luxury in Europe is defined as "High Quality".

So when M-B was having quality issues a few years ago were they no longer a Luxury brand?

[2o6]

So when M-B was having quality issues a few years ago were they no longer a Luxury brand?

Quality, or reliabilty? Two different things that don't always go hand-in-hand.

[CALL_911]

Quality, or reliabilty? Two different things that don't always go hand-in-hand.

Both.

[CALL_911]

Quality, or reliabilty? Two different things that don't always go hand-in-hand.

Both.

[cawimmer430]

I am in M?hldorf right now using my mom's computer. I won't be able to seriously reply to the discussion here until Wednesday/Thursday when I am back in Munich.


Let me just say that there is no way in hell a Toyota ES350, excuse me, Lexus ES350, will handle or drive like a W211 much less a W212 E-Class. The E-Class isn't a serious sport sedan, but it sure does handle well and sporty and can be driven sporty to. By most accounts, the ES350 will fly off the road at the first bend.

[MX793]

I am in M?hldorf right now using my mom's computer. I won't be able to seriously reply to the discussion here until Wednesday/Thursday when I am back in Munich.


Let me just say that there is no way in hell a Toyota ES350, excuse me, Lexus ES350, will handle or drive like a W211 much less a W212 E-Class. The E-Class isn't a serious sport sedan, but it sure does handle well and sporty and can be driven sporty to. By most accounts, the ES350 will fly off the road at the first bend.

The ES is not an E-class competitor in either price or target audience.  The ES is an entry level premium midsize and is significantly less expensive than the E-class (to the tune of $12,000).  It's more in line with the C-class in price, but it's not really a C-class competitor either (Lexus has the IS for that).  The ES is really Lexus' answer to American entry level premium cars like the Buick Lucerne or Lincoln MKZ (as well as the Acura TL).  The GS350/460 is Lexus's answer to the Mercedes E-class.

[mzziaz]

So when M-B was having quality issues a few years ago were they no longer a Luxury brand?

It's the percieved quality that counts, not the actual one. If MB loses it's percieved quality, they have lost the European market, imo.

[Atomic]

$50K 4 banger luxury car... the plane will not take off the treadmill

i think the environmentalists, especially in hollywood would gobble these up, just like they have with the prius. for me, if i could afford a $50,000.00 automobile with all other expenses i have (i.e. student loans), i could easily cough up the extra dough for lower mpg's and premium gasoline. if priced about $38,000.00, it might be worth being seen in a bimmer.

[sportyaccordy]

i think the environmentalists, especially in hollywood would gobble these up, just like they have with the prius. for me, if i could afford a $50,000.00 automobile with all other expenses i have (i.e. student loans), i could easily cough up the extra dough for lower mpg's and premium gasoline. if priced about $38,000.00, it might be worth being seen in a bimmer.

Celebs already don't buy big diesels... they def won't buy small ones

[CALL_911]

I am in M?hldorf right now using my mom's computer. I won't be able to seriously reply to the discussion here until Wednesday/Thursday when I am back in Munich.


Let me just say that there is no way in hell a Toyota ES350, excuse me, Lexus ES350, will handle or drive like a W211 much less a W212 E-Class. The E-Class isn't a serious sport sedan, but it sure does handle well and sporty and can be driven sporty to. By most accounts, the ES350 will fly off the road at the first bend.

You're right.

But there is every way in hell that a GS350 will.

[Onslaught]

Quality, or reliabilty? Two different things that don't always go hand-in-hand.

They go hand-in-hand in my book.

[AltinD]

... that's because you lack experience on the former

[MX793]

... that's because you lack experience on the former

Please explain how an unreliable car can still be a high quality car?

[sportyaccordy]

Please explain how an unreliable car can still be a high quality car?

Ask an owner of a Benz from the late 90s

AltinD I answer your question with a question... what good is a high quality car that isn't reliable?

[AltinD]

Reliability is a hit or miss. 

[2o6]

Ask an owner of a Benz from the late 90s

AltinD I answer your question with a question... what good is a high quality car that isn't reliable?

A Toyota Echo is very reliable, but not very high quality. Fit and finish, materials quality, crafstmanship, is not there.

An E-class may not be the most reliable, but it is (or at least should be) a quality vehicle, materials, fit and finish, and crafsmanship is superb.

[Rich]

A Toyota Echo is very reliable, but not very high quality. Fit and finish, materials quality, crafstmanship, is not there.

An E-class may not be the most reliable, but it is (or at least should be) a quality vehicle, materials, fit and finish, and crafsmanship is superb.

Obviously craftsmanship, fit and finish, and materials aren't good if shits failing to work right.

[2o6]

Obviously craftsmanship, fit and finish, and materials aren't good if shits failing to work right.

What most of Europe cares about is the look and feel of the product.

[Rich]

What most of Europe cares about is the look and feel of the product.

There's more to craftsmanship, quality, fit and finish, and materials than look and feel

[2o6]

There's more to craftsmanship, quality, fit and finish, and materials than look and feel

But that's what most of Europe cares about.


People in America want more of a value oriented, reliable product. They don't care if the quality of the product suffers.

[MX793]

Reliability is a hit or miss. 

Not really.  If you're talking individual car to individual car there is some degree of chance, but chance plays only a very very small part in reliability of a model line as a whole.  E.g., there are some models of car that you're far more likely to have problems with than others.  Modern design and manufacturing processes have led to a very high level of repeatability and consistency from one car to the next on the assembly line.  While there's still the odd chance that a bad apple makes it through, the chances are very very small and one or two bad examples does not result in an entire model line being considered unreliable.  It's only when there are consistently problems with a particular model that it can be considered unreliable.  There are ultimately 4 primary sources of poor reliability, 3 of which are controllable by the manufacturer of the vehicle.

1)  Poor maintenance practices by the owner or by a previous owner:  This is out of the manufacturer's hands.  A neglected vehicle is going to have more problems over time than a well cared for vehicle.  This also is not model dependent and is really a case-by-case scenario and not pertinent to the discussion at hand.

2)  Poor engineering/design:  A poorly designed vehicle may use materials that aren't strong enough or pieces that aren't thick enough to bear the loads they are subjected to every day, resulting in premature failure.  This is the sort of thing that results in widespread problems for an entire model line and is a quality issue.

3)  Poor assembly or manufacturing practices:  A vehicle that is put together with little attention to detail may suffer from reliability issues and premature failures.  Bolts not tightened properly can come loose, causing pieces to fall off or parts to break.  Parts not installed correctly can also break or wear out prematurely as a result.  This is a quality control issue where poor control on the line can result in widespread issues throughout a model line, giving a particular model a reputation for being unreliable.  Sure, it's possible that a small percentage of vehicles produced will find their way out of the factory with a loose bolt, but that can largely be controlled and minimized by good quality control practices.

4)  Use of sub-par or low quality components and materials:  The use of cheap steel that is prone to premature fatigue failure, or the use of sensors and electronic components (window and seat motors, for example) that are prone to premature or frequent failure can result in an entire model line that is prone to frequent problems related to these components.  This is also a quality control issue.  As with the manufacturing processes, there are bound to be a few components that slip through that fail prematurely, but when the percentage of failures grows too large, it becomes a model-wide reliability issue that should be addressed by quality control (such as finding alternative suppliers or working with current suppliers to improve their own quality control).

In other words, what makes one model of vehicle more or less reliable than another comes down to quality and thus an unreliable vehicle cannot also be a high quality vehicle.  The very source of the unreliability is a lack of quality.

[MX793]

A Toyota Echo is very reliable, but not very high quality. Fit and finish, materials quality, crafstmanship, is not there.

An E-class may not be the most reliable, but it is (or at least should be) a quality vehicle, materials, fit and finish, and crafsmanship is superb.

A car with low quality, depending on what part of the car suffers from low quality, can be reliable.  But a car that is unreliable cannot be considered high quality.  The very reason why it is unreliable is due to a lapse in quality (shoddy or poorly made electrics, bad design, etc).  A high quality car is of high quality throughout (meaning both the parts you see and the parts you don't).  A car with a fantastically put together interior but with shoddy, trouble-prone electricals or engine problems is no higher quality than a car with a crappy and cheap interior but a bulletproof drivetrain.  The difference is that one has quality problems that are plainly clear to the eye while the other suffers from poor quality under the skin.

[sportyaccordy]

Reliability is a hit or miss. 

With German cars.

They really have you guys conditioned....

[Onslaught]

... that's because you lack experience on the former

Well I don't have personal experience because I have a brain. But I know and have been around many people who don't have a brain and still buy them. You can have a nice dash, good body lines and all that shit and in the end of the day if the car has to be worked on all the time and you couldn't trust it to take you across country without a problem then it's not a well crafted car in my book.

[GoCougs]

Good gods these European H&H^TM threads are exhausting.

It's nationalism, not because of "luxury" or "quality."

It should also be noted neither BMW nor MB can build a car as good as an Accord or Camry for TWICE the price.

[sportyaccordy]

Good gods these European H&H^TM threads are exhausting.

It's nationalism, not because of "luxury" or "quality."

It should also be noted neither BMW nor MB can build a car as good as an Accord or Camry for TWICE the price.

Good is subjective. In the used realm I'd rather try my hand at a 330i or w/e than a boring ass Camry. Only newish Accord worth considering by an enthusiast is the TSX or 6-6 coupe.

[omicron]

Launch drive by CarPoint:

Traditionally, carmakers launch a new car by throwing in the biggest engines, fitting the cabins with as many juicy options as they can carry and stuffing massive, camera-friendly wheels and tyres beneath them.

BMW has broken the mould with its 5 Series Touring (that's 'wagon' to you and me) by launching its executive load lugger with just a 2.0-litre turbodiesel and a six-speed manual gearbox. And virtually no cabin fruit whatsoever.

And it's worked.

Instead of fiddling with new toys or (usually) complaining about the ride quality the bigger tyres bring, we just got to appreciate the best looking, best riding and most spacious version of the 5 Series money can buy.

And, what's more, BMW Australia has decided that this is an engine that Australians are ready to buy, even though it's not quite been game enough to announce it with a stick shift.

It's easy enough to figure out where the 5 Series Touring sits in the BMW range. Where the 7 Series is the luxury flagship (and was the first on this architecture), the 5 Series GT is the, umm, something or other and the 5 Series sedan is the technical powerhouse of the group, the Touring is the one that delivers all the prestige and all the practicality.

In Europe, at least, it will outsell the sedan because it's the 'big' man's SUV -- capable of crossing the continent with better handling and better fuel economy while giving away nothing in interior space. While it can't hope to outsell the sedan in Australia, it should find a reasonable following, not least because it's actually far better looking, with its cleaner rear lines and raked fifth door.

But The 5 Touring has a position in the wider world, too, because it has the longest wheelbase of any luxury wagon, which helps to make it look sleeker and lower and also helps its ride.

Mechanically, it's largely similar to the sedan -- though the wheelbase is longer and it rides on the GT's rear air suspension -- but it's eminently more practical. For starters, there's 560 litres of cargo space, full of curry hooks, dividers and practical touches. That can fold out to 1670 litres if you fold the simple-to-flick 40:20:40 rear seat. Or you can mix and match with whatever combination will suit the length and width of the load you're carrying.

So far, so good, because that's all stuff the sedan can't do. It has other tricks in its arsenal as well, because the rear glass opens separately to the tailgate (if you want it to) and the luggage cover automatically closes when the tailgate does.

The real good stuff is inside and it's the first 5 Series that's as good in the back as it is in the front, thanks to an 11-degree backrest angle adjustment range and a touch more legroom.

The 520d's four-cylinder diesel has been seen before, but never carrying this much metal. It's a job it shoulders manfully, too, even if 135kW of power doesn't sound like quite enough to cope with the 1710kg of kerb mass.

While it's never promising to be spritely, it does get along pretty nicely, especially once you're rolling. There is, after all, 380Nm of torque arriving at just 1900rpm (the six-cylinder diesel available in the sedan has 540, which should be enough for anybody) and, while it gets to 100km/h in 8.3 seconds, it feels nicer when you need to punch to get around the traffic.

It's not the smoothest four-cylinder diesel doing the prestige car rounds (Audi's 2.0-litre four pot probably is the pick) and it's not the strongest (the Benz probably is), but it's a good compromise between the two. Though, for Australians accustomed to more punch, it still won't be enough for most.

Get yourself a bigger engine, though, and you're still stuck with the 70-litre fuel tank and you'll be sticking a nozzle in it more frequently. With the 2.0-litre engine, it at least stretches that to a combined 6.2L/100km (we got better than that on the launch), while it officially emits 135 grams of CO2.

The 3.0-litre diesel pushes that out by nearly 20 per cent (though it does have another 45kW).

The 5 Touring's handling isn't as crisp as its three-box brother, but it isn't bad and it never feels like it's almost five metres long. Instead, its wheelbase (32mm shy of three metres) means it feels composed and relaxed and so do you when you're inside it, even when it's doing its 222km top speed.

It can fling around bends when it has to and it will do it quickly and with dignity, but the key word for anything to do with the way it eats bad roads is "nonchalance".

Besides that, it carries over much of the interior good and bad parts from the sedan, so it's probably enough to say that it's a good car as it is, even if it doesn't quite go hard enough. With the 3.0-litre diesel or either of its initial straight-six petrol offerings, though, it will be just charming.

http://www.carpoint.com.au/reviews/2010/medium-passenger/bmw/5-series/bmw-520d-touring-20276

So, rated for a combined 38mpg in Oz.

[cawimmer430]

Most American luxury car buyers go with the smallest engine available. It just so happens that our small engine choices are your big engine choices, primarily because gasoline is about 3x cheaper here.

Then it's about time that more choices are offered in the US for the US consumer. Mercedes is bringing over the E250 CDI it seems, which is a newly-built 2.1-l 4-cylinder turbodiesel. The same engine found in the E200 CDI and E220 CDI, just more powerful.

It has nothing to do with their needs. You already said why Europeans go with smaller engines even when they can afford more- they don't want to be subject to the jealous rage of the proletariat. I can't find the post but just recently you talked about some business owner who debadged his CLK500 to a 200 Kompressor to not be subject to bad treatment from his employees. That's the real driver here, not 'adequate performance'. If that were the case they would just buy a Renault Twingo or w/e.

He had his CLK500 debadged to a CLK200 Kompressor so his employees wouldn't view him as someone who spends his money on expensive cars. To me this is silly as a simple CLK200 Kompressor is already an expensive car. But, social jealousy is a big thing in Germany, a phenomenon I can't explain. It just exists here.

Also, any real enthusiast will know this "CLK200 Kompressor" is bogus since the CLK500 has a nice V8 sound when being started up. Incidentally, this guy is now retired and now drives a Porsche Panamera Turbo. 

Obviously as nobody would cross shop the two cars. But if someone were cross shopping an E220 CDI, and happened to test drive an equally priced GS350 & saw that the GS had infinitely better performance + engine response you don't think that would make an impression? While I know in Europe foreign cars are taxed to high hell to be made uncompetitive, here the playing field is level, gas is cheap and performance matters.

First off, someone shopping for an E220 CDI will be looking at gas mileage. The performance of the E220 CDI is for European considerations "very good". It's the most popular E-Class model by far - always has been since the days of the W210 and W211 (well over 50% of W210/W211 E-Class sales have been E220 CDI's). I've driven the W210 and W211 E220 CDI's and I can honestly say that I found the performance to be very good. It's not a sports car, but it's not slow or lethargic by any means.

E220 CDI vs GS350? GS350 will win in performance and refinement and features. The E220 CDI can be individualized on a level that no Lexus really can though.

The real competitor to the GS350 is the E350, and at the moment the GS350 will have the more powerful engine, but it's not like the E350 isn't weak. Furthermore, "the most horsepower" isn't as important here as it seems to be in the US where a base model luxury car is apparently not a luxury car if a simple Honda Accord V6 has more horsepower...

Then again, the GS350 sells so poorly here it's not even funny. The GS460 isn't sold here anymore to my knowledge and the GS450h - well I've only seen them in Lexus showrooms, never on the streets. Someone who's shopping for a luxury car here will want something with a name - not everyone, but most. The Lexus name here means squat. Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar etc. are the luxury brands people tend to eye.

Like I keep saying... if petrol wasn't taxed to $8 a gallon, and Europeans weren't so violently jealous of success, your automotive landscape would look a lot like ours. I guarantee it

I honestly don't think so. I'll say it again: Europeans are a bit more conservative also more ecologically focus. Taking care of the environment is big over here and many people try to do their part by either taking public transportation or buying a car with the performance to suit their needs. I'm not saying that we don't dream about cheaper gas and perhaps more powerful cars - but when it comes down to it, I think (from experience) that most people will remain realistic and make a conscious choice when it comes to what they drive.