991 GT3 first drive

[MrH]

  The day someone ghost rides their GT3 around a track...

[hotrodalex]

Racing games don't even give you an accurate sense of speed.

And if you're going to mis-time shifts, drive slower until you can nail those shifts every time. Saying "oh I can't manage it with a stick" is a cop out excuse. Seems like people just want the car to be easier to drive while they show off how fast they are, instead of improving their skills along with their speed.

I think there's a limit to most people's skills. Most people can't drive a race car, even if they practice and train. It's just above their potential. The GT3 gets closer to race cars with every new generation, so I'm not surprised that it's using a PDK to make it accessible to a few more drivers. After all, Porsche is trying to sell cars, not save the manuals.

[12,000 RPM]

Serious LOL at how easy you think it is to drive one of these all out properly.

And yes, they replaced the driving skill in GT3 Cup cars too by having sequential manuals in them.  My mother could keep up with those guys now!

All I'm saying is, if your solution is to drive slower and learn until you can drive do all these things perfectly full out, no one would come close to touching the performance potential of these cars.  Might as well just get a base 911.

Why aren't you guys advocating bringing back manual choke operation?  Hand cranked engines?

Nobody said driving one of these things is easy. THAT'S THE POINT. Driving a 500HP supercar isn't SUPPOSED to be easy.

Racing is a whole different bag. Part of it is fun but job 1 is winning races, which means using every competitive advantage available, including technology. Stickshift or not, nobody here could pilot a GT3 cup car like an actual racing driver. So the idea that a sequential transmission would help close the gap in any meaningful way, or that closing the gap is a meaningful/worthwhile objective at all is not really valid. And plenty of people can and DO drive cars like this at their potential. These folks invest time and money into practicing and mastering these cars + skills. They are called race car drivers.

And chokes +hand cranks have nothing to do with driving skill. Better choices would have been vacuum assisted brakes or power steering. But one could argue those are more safety techs than a sequential box.

Point blank, the idea of technology as a crutch for a lack of ability is just not right. If you're an actual race car driver actually racing for money then a paddle shift box makes sense. And people are free to buy whatever transmissions they want for whatever reasons they want. But if you are buying a paddle shift box because you couldn't drive the same car with a stickshift you are just doing yourself a disservice. In my opinion, of course.

I am not knocking Porsche at all as they are a business and the market is God. I think Chris' estimates were low.. I think for every 1 dude not buying this there will be 8-10 to take his place. But like Raza kinda said, and I really HATE to admit, driving a race car with race car tech doesn't make you a race car driver. If your car trumps your abilities to the point that you need help driving it maybe you made the wrong choice.

[GoCougs]

Nah, manual gearbox at this performance level would be a distraction to design and hence performance - track or street. There would be compromises to accommodate both gearboxes, esp. with such a compact and weird arrangement as a rear engine.

[SVT666]

I disagree.

Maybe it's a stupid metric, but I've got a racing seat and 6-speed manual + clutch setup for Gran Turismo.  Anything pushing 350 or 400+ hp becomes almost unmanageable with a stick.  You're diving from apex to apex so quick, trying to focus on heel toeing and being in the right gear is near impossible. You've got 7 gears to choose from, each of which you're in for a matter of seconds at most before you upshift or downshifts.

It's like hurtling towards the sun, and seconds before your impending death, you have to tie your shoes before hitting the brakes.  It's nuts.

I think driving a BRZ has fucked with you.  I've driven a new Mustang GT (420 hp) pretty quickly on a backroad and a manual is far from unmanageable.  I couldn't imagine driving a GT-R on a track without flappy paddles though.

[hotrodalex]

I think driving a BRZ has fucked with you.  I've driven a new Mustang GT (420 hp) pretty quickly on a backroad and a manual is far from unmanageable.  I couldn't imagine driving a GT-R on a track without flappy paddles though.

I think his point is valid, but his numbers are a little low since he's basing it off a video game. I'd say 500 hp is the cutoff where it starts to get more tricky and screw ups become more dangerous.

Nobody said driving one of these things is easy. THAT'S THE POINT. Driving a 500HP supercar isn't SUPPOSED to be easy.

Racing is a whole different bag. Part of it is fun but job 1 is winning races, which means using every competitive advantage available, including technology. Stickshift or not, nobody here could pilot a GT3 cup car like an actual racing driver. So the idea that a sequential transmission would help close the gap in any meaningful way, or that closing the gap is a meaningful/worthwhile objective at all is not really valid. And plenty of people can and DO drive cars like this at their potential. These folks invest time and money into practicing and mastering these cars + skills. They are called race car drivers.

And chokes +hand cranks have nothing to do with driving skill. Better choices would have been vacuum assisted brakes or power steering. But one could argue those are more safety techs than a sequential box.

Point blank, the idea of technology as a crutch for a lack of ability is just not right. If you're an actual race car driver actually racing for money then a paddle shift box makes sense. And people are free to buy whatever transmissions they want for whatever reasons they want. But if you are buying a paddle shift box because you couldn't drive the same car with a stickshift you are just doing yourself a disservice. In my opinion, of course.

I am not knocking Porsche at all as they are a business and the market is God. I think Chris' estimates were low.. I think for every 1 dude not buying this there will be 8-10 to take his place. But like Raza kinda said, and I really HATE to admit, driving a race car with race car tech doesn't make you a race car driver. If your car trumps your abilities to the point that you need help driving it maybe you made the wrong choice.

Who buys a car so they can spend 5 months figuring out how to drive it?

[SVT666]

Nah, manual gearbox at this performance level would be a distraction to design and hence performance - track or street. There would be compromises to accommodate both gearboxes, esp. with such a compact and weird arrangement as a rear engine.

FAIL.

[SVT666]

I think his point is valid, but his numbers are a little low since he's basing it off a video game. I'd say 500 hp is the cutoff where it starts to get more tricky and screw ups become more dangerous.

Thanks for confirming exactly what I posted.

[SJ_GTI]

It is physically impossible for a person to manually shift as quickly as the current crop of SMG can shift. Getting a manual transmission is simply guaranteeing less performance.

For myself, I chose to buy a manual transmission car because I enjoy shifting it myself and it is 100% for commuting. If I had any intention to track a car I would have gotten the DSG. Even as it is, there are occasional times where I would like to have DSG. I have been driving manual transmission for along time but I am not a professional and never will be so I do miss time shifts here and there when I am really trying to take off. Its always just for fun so it doesn't hurt anything, but it is a reminder that DSG is superior if your goal is to have a car with maximum performance, which I gather is the entire point of purchasing a  GT3 instead of a Carrera (2 or otherwise).

If I was buying a Porsche tomorrow I would almost certainly go with the normal, plebian Carrera and get a manual transmission.

[hotrodalex]

Thanks for confirming exactly what I posted.

If I was buying a Porsche tomorrow I would almost certainly go with the normal, plebian Carrera and get a manual transmission.

Same here.

[12,000 RPM]

Nah, manual gearbox at this performance level would be a distraction to design and hence performance - track or street. There would be compromises to accommodate both gearboxes, esp. with such a compact and weird arrangement as a rear engine.

The significantly more powerful 911 Turbo has had 2 boxes for years, with a more compact + weird engine arrangement than this. Not sure where you are coming from with this.

Who buys a car so they can spend 5 months figuring out how to drive it?

Someone who enjoys building their driving skills  Its not like the last GT3 was completely undrivable w/o racing experience.

Plus there are cars about as fast and totally analog that people track. The old GT3 is not far off from this at all from a raw numbers standpoint and people managed it fine.

[Lebowski]

That the majority of exotic car owners regularly track their cars?  Yeah.

The majority of exotic/sports cars buyers also don't buy manuals, and this was true even 10+ years ago when the alternative was a traditional slushy.

Further, the 991 is available in numerous variations, of which the GT3 is the more track focused. So you're saying they should tailor the track focused offering to buyers who won't track, when there are already multiple models better suited to those buyers and notwithstanding the fact that the vast majority of them wouldn't buy a manual anyway?  Brilliant.

[Lebowski]

Nobody said driving one of these things is easy. THAT'S THE POINT. Driving a 500HP supercar isn't SUPPOSED to be easy.

Racing is a whole different bag. Part of it is fun but job 1 is winning races, which means using every competitive advantage available, including technology. Stickshift or not, nobody here could pilot a GT3 cup car like an actual racing driver. So the idea that a sequential transmission would help close the gap in any meaningful way, or that closing the gap is a meaningful/worthwhile objective at all is not really valid. And plenty of people can and DO drive cars like this at their potential. These folks invest time and money into practicing and mastering these cars + skills. They are called race car drivers.

And chokes +hand cranks have nothing to do with driving skill. Better choices would have been vacuum assisted brakes or power steering. But one could argue those are more safety techs than a sequential box.

Point blank, the idea of technology as a crutch for a lack of ability is just not right. If you're an actual race car driver actually racing for money then a paddle shift box makes sense. And people are free to buy whatever transmissions they want for whatever reasons they want. But if you are buying a paddle shift box because you couldn't drive the same car with a stickshift you are just doing yourself a disservice. In my opinion, of course.

I am not knocking Porsche at all as they are a business and the market is God. I think Chris' estimates were low.. I think for every 1 dude not buying this there will be 8-10 to take his place. But like Raza kinda said, and I really HATE to admit, driving a race car with race car tech doesn't make you a race car driver. If your car trumps your abilities to the point that you need help driving it maybe you made the wrong choice.

You're contradicting yourself all over the place.

You keep calling it a crutch and saying people should learn to drive better, yet my understanding is the PDK will turn out better lap times even with the same (skilled) driver. So if a professional race driver can turn a better lap with the PDK, is he using it as a crutch too?  Shouldn't he just "learn to drive better" until he can turn equal times in both? 


Guys, the Carrera, Carerra S, Carrera 4, Carrera 4s, and the vert versions of all of those, are available with a manual.  That's 8 different flavours of 991.  If maximizing performance isn't what you're after, it's not like there's a lack of choices.

[MrH]

The significantly more powerful 911 Turbo has had 2 boxes for years, with a more compact + weird engine arrangement than this. Not sure where you are coming from with this.
Someone who enjoys building their driving skills  Its not like the last GT3 was completely undrivable w/o racing experience.

Plus there are cars about as fast and totally analog that people track. The old GT3 is not far off from this at all from a raw numbers standpoint and people managed it fine.

My argument is that if your goal is building your driving skill, you're limiting yourself by getting the traditional manual.  It's a crutch that will always net a worse result in a car like this, no matter how much you practice?  Where's the argument against ABS?  You should just work harder until you can modulate your brakes right at lock up.

My limited track experience with both a traditional manual and DSG had me greatly preferring the DSG for track work.  There's simply so much to focus on in terms of hitting the right line and getting the most out of the car.  Downshifting while trying to not upset the balance approaching a corner is tough.  It's exponentially harder in a car as fast as one of these.  The DSG let me push harder, further, and gave me better control through the entire process.  I've been driving manuals for 10 years now.  It doesn't matter how much I practice, the DSG will always give me better control and ability.

For a daily driver with a modest amount of power?  Give me the traditional manual.  For something with bonkers performance or on a track?  Give me a DSG.

[Galaxy]

It is physically impossible for a person to manually shift as quickly as the current crop of SMG can shift. Getting a manual transmission is simply guaranteeing less performance.

True, but with that logic, you can also get rid of the steering wheel. BMW, a few years ago, created a robot 3 Series that had the optimal way around the "ring" programmed into it. It would out drive all but the best drivers..

[Raza]

Who buys a car so they can spend 5 months figuring out how to drive it?

For me, driving is about me and the machine, not the machine and the machine's software.  If I give up performance to get the experience I enjoy, then so be it.  Driving isn't about lap times to me and it never will be. 

[Raza]

The majority of exotic/sports cars buyers also don't buy manuals, and this was true even 10+ years ago when the alternative was a traditional slushy.

Further, the 991 is available in numerous variations, of which the GT3 is the more track focused. So you're saying they should tailor the track focused offering to buyers who won't track, when there are already multiple models better suited to those buyers and notwithstanding the fact that the vast majority of them wouldn't buy a manual anyway?  Brilliant.

Learn to fucking read.  I didn't say that at all.  Not once.  Read and think before you react.  You can sound out the words if any of them are particularly difficult, no one will judge you.  I've already stated several times that I don't care that this is PDK only and that I understand why they did it and simply that I would not buy one had I the means.  Nothing more than that. 

[MrH]

For me, driving is about me and the machine, not the machine and the machine's software.

Your car has ABS, stability control, traction control, VANOS, electronic fuel injection and spark timing.  Hell, even electric steering!  The most used input device has a big fat layer of software controlling what you're experience.  It's a HUGE combination of software already.  You're a driving hypocrisy! 

[hotrodalex]

What if you buy the car and never really master it the way you want to? What if you can't even reach 8/10ths of the performance because the transmission is holding you back? Is it $150k down the drain?

[Lebowski]

If I give up performance to get the experience I enjoy, then so be it.  Driving isn't about lap times to me and it never will be. 

Right, that's why they have the Carrera, Carrera S, Carrera 4 ...

[Lebowski]

Learn to fucking read.  I didn't say that at all.  Not once.  Read and think before you react.  You can sound out the words if any of them are particularly difficult, no one will judge you.  I've already stated several times that I don't care that this is PDK only and that I understand why they did it and simply that I would not buy one had I the means.  Nothing more than that. 

I did read and that is what you said. You appealed to false logic based on what most people do. Also if you don't care why do you get so bent out of shape about it?

[Cookie Monster]

I can see where people are coming from wrt track times and all that. I guess my only hope is that the GT2/RS will come with a stick. Doesn't make sense to offer that with a pdk.

[MrH]

What if you buy the car and never really master it the way you want to? What if you can't even reach 8/10ths of the performance because the transmission is holding you back? Is it $150k down the drain?

I'd wager all of us would get around a track faster with a Carrera 2S with PDK than GT3 with a manual.

[Raza]

Your car has ABS, stability control, traction control, VANOS, electronic fuel injection and spark timing.  Hell, even electric steering!  The most used input device has a big fat layer of software controlling what you're experience.  It's a HUGE combination of software already.  You're a driving hypocrisy!

But those things aren't apparent.  That's the point.  The technology can be there, that's fine.  If the car were less engaging to drive because of those things, I'd agree with you.  But it's simply not.  The tech is in the background.  When you drive the car, it feels like an old school sports car, not an iPod. 

[Raza]

I did read and that is what you said. You appealed to false logic based on what most people do. Also if you don't care why do you get so bent out of shape about it?

Please cite, because I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  I've only commented on my own likes and dislikes, with a small aside on the reasons that people buy these cars, which, of course, doesn't bother me.

[Cookie Monster]

I'd wager all of us would get around a track faster with a Carrera 2S with PDK than GT3 with a manual.

This is an interesting argument. I disagree, actually, but it's cool to think about.

[Raza]

I'd wager all of us would get around a track faster with a Carrera 2S with PDK than GT3 with a manual.

And I continue not to care about lap times.  See how this works?  We go round and round.

[Cookie Monster]

And I continue not to care about lap times.  See how this works?  We go round and round.

Then why care so much about the pdk? I think you and I are arguing different points about the same matter.

[MrH]

This is an interesting argument. I disagree, actually, but it's cool to think about.

In something like a miata, I think most of us would be pretty similar with either.  Something like a C2S would be tough.  A GT3 is like drinking from a fire hydrant.

[Lebowski]

Please cite, because I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  I've only commented on my own likes and dislikes, with a small aside on the reasons that people buy these cars, which, of course, doesn't bother me.

Re-read the thread and try putting 2+2 together for once. You said it was regrettable, implied enthusiasts wouldn't buy these (so people who don't track are more of enthusiasts than people who do?), and replied to a post about the merits on a track with (I paraphrase) "that's an illusion ... Nobody tracks anyway".  They already have 8+ models for those people what more do you want, other than to whine?