991 GT3 first drive

[MrH]

But those things aren't apparent.  That's the point.  The technology can be there, that's fine.  If the car were less engaging to drive because of those things, I'd agree with you.  But it's simply not.  The tech is in the background.  When you drive the car, it feels like an old school sports car, not an iPod. 

Everything but vanos, fuel, and spark are pretty transparent to me.

[Cookie Monster]

In something like a miata, I think most of us would be pretty similar with either.  Something like a C2S would be tough.  A GT3 is like drinking from a fire hydrant.

True, I've never actually driven something that fast very hard before.

[MrH]

True, I've never actually driven something that fast very hard before.

My two cars on the ring were a Scirocco with DSG and a Swift Sport with a 5-speed.  Even though the Scirocco had much higher limits, I was definitely able to drive right up to the limit (and past ) much easier.

[Raza]

Then why care so much about the pdk? I think you and I are arguing different points about the same matter.

I don't care about the PDK.  All I said is that I wouldn't buy a GT3 with a PDK.

[Raza]

Re-read the thread and try putting 2+2 together for once. You said it was regrettable, implied enthusiasts wouldn't buy these (so people who don't track are more of enthusiasts than people who do?), and replied to a post about the merits on a track with (I paraphrase) "that's an illusion ... Nobody tracks anyway".  They already have 8+ models for those people what more do you want, other than to whine?

You tell me that I need to re-read my own post because you can interpret it better than I can?  You've found a special kind of douchebaggery, Adam.  I never once said that Porsche should sell this with a manual, or that Porsche didn't offer cars for people who want manuals, nor did I ever say that a dual clutch automatic isn't advantageous on a track.  How about you dial down your douchiness and just read what's written?

[12,000 RPM]

You're contradicting yourself all over the place.

You keep calling it a crutch and saying people should learn to drive better, yet my understanding is the PDK will turn out better lap times even with the same (skilled) driver. So if a professional race driver can turn a better lap with the PDK, is he using it as a crutch too?  Shouldn't he just "learn to drive better" until he can turn equal times in both? 

Lap times are a product of a lot of things not just limited to drivers skill. You give a car 200 more HP it will turn faster lap times regardless of driver skill (except in the case of the Mustang GT/SVT lol). Point though is just like you said, a driver w/the same skill will turn faster lap times in a faster car. But if the end goal is to have faster lap times the most fundamental aspect is driving skill, which cars like this are using technology to replace rather than augment.

Guys, the Carrera, Carerra S, Carrera 4, Carrera 4s, and the vert versions of all of those, are available with a manual.  That's 8 different flavours of 991.  If maximizing performance isn't what you're after, it's not like there's a lack of choices.

I think everyone gets this. This discussion is just more an academic one about the purpose of drivers aid in the place of a street car for someone w/basically little to no driving skills. I just disagree w/the notion that a 450HP track focused Porsche should be "easy" to drive, but I'm not suggesting Porsche or anyone has to do what I say.

Your car has ABS, stability control, traction control, VANOS, electronic fuel injection and spark timing.  Hell, even electric steering!  The most used input device has a big fat layer of software controlling what you're experience.  It's a HUGE combination of software already.  You're a driving hypocrisy! 

VANOS, EFI, spark timing have nothing to do w/driving skill. And the rest of those technologies are totally appropriate for a street car I would hope one wouldn't be using public roads as their training grounds for at the limit driving skills. I have had cars w/o power steering on the street. It fucking SUCKED!!! Besides, it might just be an electrical pump pressurizing a conventional rack. Lot of great drivers cars had this setup (S2000, MR2).

If anything, the fact that the GT3 is still a street car is prob the best argument for it having an auto box. But even still...

I'd wager all of us would get around a track faster with a Carrera 2S with PDK than GT3 with a manual.

I wish we could test out this theory. I think it would depend a lot on the track, but overall I disagree. Both cars are in the realm of performance that we'd all prob be scared shitless approaching their limits, so it would pretty much be a toss up. In any case I would still want a manual box even at the track. If I'm not racing for money lap times don't matter.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Just checked out the video,

Beautiful car

amazing roads

my life sucks.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Addressing the manual transmission issue, I agree with chris at the end of the video. The philosophy and the facts are very different, this is the last car I expected to go the technical route based on it's PHILOSOPHY. The facts however are very different and this is ultimately what the market wants. For those of us who would rather embrace the philosophy(at the penalty of a few seconds on a race track) we just have to accept it or move on.

[Lebowski]

You tell me that I need to re-read my own post because you can interpret it better than I can?  You've found a special kind of douchebaggery, Adam.  I never once said that Porsche should sell this with a manual, or that Porsche didn't offer cars for people who want manuals, nor did I ever say that a dual clutch automatic isn't advantageous on a track.  How about you dial down your douchiness and just read what's written?

No, you said what you said, and followed up with "well I don't care anyway". Ok.

Now you keep saying "all I said was I wouldn't buy one". No, that's not all you said.  Your # of posts and words in this thread would be about 1/10 and 1/100 what they are if that were the case.

[Lebowski]

Lap times are a product of a lot of things not just limited to drivers skill. You give a car 200 more HP it will turn faster lap times regardless of driver skill (except in the case of the Mustang GT/SVT lol). Point though is just like you said, a driver w/the same skill will turn faster lap times in a faster car. But if the end goal is to have faster lap times the most fundamental aspect is driving skill, which cars like this are using technology to replace rather than augment.

There's a concept called "all else equal".

Yes driver skill is an important factor, no one is denying that.  You can drive a PDK and still work on your driving skills, they are not mutually exclusive.

[SVT666]

Lap times are a product of a lot of things not just limited to drivers skill. You give a car 200 more HP it will turn faster lap times regardless of driver skill (except in the case of the Mustang GT/SVT lol).

What?  The GT500 is the fastest Mustang around a track.

[MrH]

Raza can't accept this car.  It'd crush his pseudo automotive hipster persona.  He's too cool to deal with technology.  He's a disgruntled old man that wants computers eliminated from his vehicle...but only when it's convenient to him

You give a car 200 more HP it will turn faster lap times regardless of driver skill (except in the case of the Mustang GT/SVT lol).

[Raza]

Raza can't accept this car.  It'd crush his pseudo automotive hipster persona.  He's too cool to deal with technology.  He's a disgruntled old man that wants computers eliminated from his vehicle...but only when it's convenient to him

I fully accept this car.  I just don't want it.   

[Soup DeVille]

Just look at how fast that thing revs. I can't imagine trying to keep up with that beastly engine with a conventional manual.

When you take your foot off the pedal, it stops gaining revs so fast

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I fully accept this car.  I just don't want it.   

I share that feeling, It's an amazing car no doubt.

[Soup DeVille]

So can anybody make a reasonable argument for the engine still being behind the rear axle?

[FlatBlackCaddy]

So can anybody make a reasonable argument for the engine still being behind the rear axle?

It's shy 

[FlatBlackCaddy]

This motor + cayman + 6 speed manual, sounds like a blast.

[SVT666]

I'm with Raza.  I absolutely loved driving the GT-R, but I want a manual since it would never see a track under my ownership.

[Rich]

So if a manual transmission doesn't make the car more fun on a track, what does?  The steering?  braking?  Acceleration?  The same for nailing a good shift can be said for nailing a good apex.  For getting the braking zone just right.  For easing onto the gas just right.  What if one of those 3 were taken away by electronics?  When autonomous racing cars come out and humans are slower around the track, will everyone just jump ship and have computers drive their cars?

I say this as someone that sticks with paddle shifting in GT5, even though there's a gated shifter next to my steering wheel also.  Just food for thought.

[SVT666]

So if a manual transmission doesn't make the car more fun on a track, what does?  The steering?  braking?  Acceleration?  The same for nailing a good shift can be said for nailing a good apex.  For getting the braking zone just right.  For easing onto the gas just right.  What if one of those 3 were taken away by electronics?  When autonomous racing cars come out and humans are slower around the track, will everyone just jump ship and have computers drive their cars?

I say this as someone that sticks with paddle shifting in GT5, even though there's a gated shifter next to my steering wheel also.  Just food for thought.

If I was tracking my car on a regular basis, then I would be going purely for lap times.  Flappy paddles are still pretty fucking fun on a track, but (especially in a car as fast as the GT-R) I didn't even want to take my hands of the wheel.  On the street I don't give a shit which is faster, just which is more engaging.  Manual wins on the street for me.

[Vinsanity]

I would imagine that driving this car with a conventional manual would be like an NBA All-Star playing in Chuck Taylors.

[Raza]

I share that feeling, It's an amazing car no doubt.

It is an amazing technical masterpiece, I agree. 

[MrH]

So if a manual transmission doesn't make the car more fun on a track, what does?  The steering?  braking?  Acceleration?  The same for nailing a good shift can be said for nailing a good apex.  For getting the braking zone just right.  For easing onto the gas just right.  What if one of those 3 were taken away by electronics?  When autonomous racing cars come out and humans are slower around the track, will everyone just jump ship and have computers drive their cars?

I say this as someone that sticks with paddle shifting in GT5, even though there's a gated shifter next to my steering wheel also.  Just food for thought.

I'd equate this to track and field:

We can drive 400 m around a track faster in a car than we can run it, but that would completely change the sport.  Same with car racing.  Autonomous cars won't remove humans from racing.  It's no longer racing then.

Similarly, track athletes shouldn't be hampered by having to run barefoot.  Track cars shouldn't be hampered with traditional manuals.  I agree, hitting a perfect downshift is rewarding.  But in vehicles this fast, by having a traditional manual, you're degrading the rest of the experience.  Hitting that apex, brake point, feathering the throttle just right, etc, is all being limited by the fact the transmission can't keep up with the rest of the car.

In track and field, there's beauty and achievement in getting off the line with perfect form (arm movement, knees, everything).  Stick a barefoot guy out there without starting blocks, and it hampers everything else to the point that you don't see what the guy is really capable of.  Same story here.

I can't access YouTube right now, but someone link the autocar F12 review.  Watch that guy tackle those roads, and just try and imagine doing that with a 6-speed and clutch.  You wouldn't be able to.  You wouldn't even be able to come close to witnessing what that vehicle is capable of.

[Soup DeVille]

I would imagine that driving this car with a conventional manual would be like an NBA All-Star playing in Chuck Taylors.

Or like driving a formula one car with the engine sticking out the back.

Oh, wait.

Look, I get the argument, flappy paddles are faster. So are mid engined cars, and this has been an acknowledged fact for decades. Yet still the 911 goes on, with its motorus operandus where it's gluteus maximus belongs, and were supposed to believe Porsche is doing this all just to make it faster?

[MrH]

I would imagine that driving this car with a conventional manual would be like an NBA All-Star playing in Chuck Taylors.

Wow, I made almost the same analogy without even seeing your post.

[CALL_911]

I wish the GT3 had a manual option, seeing as if I owned one, it would probably never see a track. I'd get more enjoyment out of it on a day-to-day basis. That said, it isn't hard to see why it's PDK-only.

Realistically, in a car like this, lack of a manual option would not be a dealbreaker for me.

[MrH]

Or like driving a formula one car with the engine sticking out the back.

Oh, wait.

Look, I get the argument, flappy paddles are faster. So are mid engined cars, and this has been an acknowledged fact for decades. Yet still the 911 goes on, with its motorus operandus where it's gluteus maximus belongs, and were supposed to believe Porsche is doing this all just to make it faster?

There are pros and cons to rear engined vs mid engined.  To say one is definitively better is a stretch.  Especially when Porsche keeps kicking everyone's ass with a rear engined car.

There's definitely more performance with a DSG, more control.  Only downside is slightly more weight.  Just the fact you guys think having a manual transmission over a DSG is a make or break factor is crazy to me.  You still have direct control over what gear you're using.  I question whether some of you have driven a good DSG. 

[Vinsanity]

I wish the GT3 had a manual option, seeing as if I owned one, it would probably never see a track. I'd get more enjoyment out of it on a day-to-day basis. That said, it isn't hard to see why it's PDK-only.

Realistically, in a car like this, lack of a manual option would not be a dealbreaker for me.

If I owned a GT3, I'd take it to the track as often as I could. If I wanted a Porsche to not drive around a track, I'd get a Carrera S cabrio.

[Soup DeVille]

There are pros and cons to rear engined vs mid engined.  To say one is definitively better is a stretch.  Especially when Porsche keeps kicking everyone's ass with a rear engined car.

There's definitely more performance with a DSG, more control.  Only downside is slightly more weight.  Just the fact you guys think having a manual transmission over a DSG is a make or break factor is crazy to me.  You still have direct control over what gear you're using.  I question whether some of you have driven a good DSG. 

So how many race cars not based on 911s are rear engine then? Why?

The only reason the 911 Is is because of a historical accident; that its forbears were based upon a stripped down version of a nazi era commuter car.