944 Suspension

[Rupert]

....wut

Did I stutter?

[MrH]

Did I stutter?

No, but what your guy said didn't make any sense.

[Eye of the Tiger]

A lot of cars are underdamped from the factory.

Not Accents

[shp4man]

All those stick up the ass Kraut engineers spend all that time and testing on that car's suspension and you want to throw it all out the window? 

[Eye of the Tiger]

All those stick up the ass Kraut engineers spend all that time and testing on that car's suspension and you want to throw it all out the window? 

Anyone who untunes a Porsche must be an unthusiast.

[Rupert]

No, but what your guy said didn't make any sense.

Thanks for this informative post.

[MrH]

Thanks for this informative post.

Changing the springs is a bad idea, but different sway bars aren't? He didn't give any reason why?

[Rupert]

He suggested a mm or two of increased size for the sway bars, nothing drastic, and he didn't say it was a "good idea", he just didn't say it was a bad idea when I brought it up. :P

To be fair, I don't think he said "bad idea" in reference to the springs, either.

[MrH]

He suggested a mm or two of increased size for the sway bars, nothing drastic, and he didn't say it was a "good idea", he just didn't say it was a bad idea when I brought it up. :P

To be fair, I don't think he said "bad idea" in reference to the springs, either.

Oh, well then.  Depends on what you want. If you're happy with the roll in corners and current ride height, stay with stock.  If you want something a bit lower and better performing, consider new springs.

As to what spring rate to run, it's one of many factors in the whole thing.  If you say, double your spring rate, that doesn't mean it's going to feel twice as stiff from the butt-dyno.  And stiffer springs doesn't necessarily mean noticeable worse ride.  I like a really firm, controlled ride.

Another note:  You can't really say something like, "200 lb/in springs are too stiff in a street car."  It totally varies vehicle to vehicle.  One, each car has a different motion ratio.  For some cars, an inch of wheel movement = half an inch of movement in the spring.  That ratio changes depending on the geometry of the suspension.  Also, spring rate is largely determined by the weight of the vehicle.

Needless to say, there's a metric shit ton of variables that go into.  I found some decent info on your car on the interwebs though.  Luckily, it's got a big following and it's been around awhile, so there's information.  If you want to consider going aftermarket springs or sway bars, let me know and I'll see if I can put something together.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Oh, well then.  Depends on what you want. If you're happy with the roll in corners and current ride height, stay with stock.  If you want something a bit lower and better performing, consider new springs.

As to what spring rate to run, it's one of many factors in the whole thing.  If you say, double your spring rate, that doesn't mean it's going to feel twice as stiff from the butt-dyno.  And stiffer springs doesn't necessarily mean noticeable worse ride.  I like a really firm, controlled ride.

Another note:  You can't really say something like, "200 lb/in springs are too stiff in a street car."  It totally varies vehicle to vehicle.  One, each car has a different motion ratio.  For some cars, an inch of wheel movement = half an inch of movement in the spring.  That ratio changes depending on the geometry of the suspension.  Also, spring rate is largely determined by the weight of the vehicle.

Needless to say, there's a metric shit ton of variables that go into.  I found some decent info on your car on the interwebs though.  Luckily, it's got a big following and it's been around awhile, so there's information.  If you want to consider going aftermarket springs or sway bars, let me know and I'll see if I can put something together.

LOL
The self proclaimed world suspension guru offers to browse other internet forums to design a suspension for fucks sake. What a pile of shit. I have never seen you mention anything other than basic suspension 101 buzz words and catch phrases. You dont know shit else other than what they tell you to do in your little engineering cubicle.

[Secret Chimp]

LOL
The self proclaimed world suspension guru offers to browse other internet forums to design a suspension for fucks sake. What a pile of shit. I have never seen you mention anything other than basic suspension 101 buzz words and catch phrases. You dont know shit else other than what they tell you to do in your little engineering cubicle.

Blah blah blah fully delitized and loving it

[MrH]

LOL
The self proclaimed world suspension guru offers to browse other internet forums to design a suspension for fucks sake. What a pile of shit. I have never seen you mention anything other than basic suspension 101 buzz words and catch phrases. You dont know shit else other than what they tell you to do in your little engineering cubicle.

Naw homie.  Just using the interweb to figure out what the specs are on stock stuff so I can do the voodoo math you don't understand

[Eye of the Tiger]

Naw homie.  Just using the interweb to figure out what the specs are on stock stuff so I can do the voodoo math you don't understand

Oh so wow you can multiply spring times two. What a large suspension penis you have.

[Rupert]

Oh, well then.  Depends on what you want. If you're happy with the roll in corners and current ride height, stay with stock.  If you want something a bit lower and better performing, consider new springs.

As to what spring rate to run, it's one of many factors in the whole thing.  If you say, double your spring rate, that doesn't mean it's going to feel twice as stiff from the butt-dyno.  And stiffer springs doesn't necessarily mean noticeable worse ride.  I like a really firm, controlled ride.

Another note:  You can't really say something like, "200 lb/in springs are too stiff in a street car."  It totally varies vehicle to vehicle.  One, each car has a different motion ratio.  For some cars, an inch of wheel movement = half an inch of movement in the spring.  That ratio changes depending on the geometry of the suspension.  Also, spring rate is largely determined by the weight of the vehicle.

Needless to say, there's a metric shit ton of variables that go into.  I found some decent info on your car on the interwebs though.  Luckily, it's got a big following and it's been around awhile, so there's information.  If you want to consider going aftermarket springs or sway bars, let me know and I'll see if I can put something together.

I like the ride of the car as it is. Very comfortable for a sports car/GT, which is good for the main purpose of the car, which is touring. The secondary purpose, though, is fast curvy road driving, and for that, I think it's a little too soft and rolly. So, while I want it stiffer for that purpose, I don't want to damage the appeal of the car for touring. As a benchmark of what I don't want, I submit the Alfa, which handles great, etc., but is a good deal bumpier over really any tiny imperfection. It has Koni yellows. Good for that car's purpose (commuting and fast driving, probably not touring).

Ride height is currently screwed up, as the rear t-bars need to be adjusted, but in general, I like the ride height. Looks good, not to low. I'm not convinced the front springs haven't collapsed a little.

My approach at this point is incremental modification. I haven't done any suspension modding before, so even informed opinions don't really count, since I don't have a baseline. I was going to go with Konis and 220 lb springs and fatter sways, but, a) that's $$$, and b) it's probably too stiff and bouncy. Shocks for now, then later if I still think it's too rolly, springs and/or sways. I can do most of that work myself (not the rear torsion bars, but the rest of it), so I'm less concerned about that additional cost. I'll probably update this thread when I get the shocks put on and then we'll see.

As far as spring rates and such, yes, and that is what I was hoping to get into a little bit. Seemed obvious to me that the weight of the car and the geometry of the suspension would affect what the right rate would be for a given purpose, as well as the dampers and their rates and such. I mean, you wouldn't put 200 lb springs in a 3/4 ton truck!

[Rupert]

Ladies, ladies, there's enough of me for all of you. Just get in line.

[MrH]

Oh so wow you can multiply spring times two. What a large suspension penis you have.

You don't even know what you don't know.  That's the worst part.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Ladies, ladies, there's enough of me for all of you. Just get in line.

I don't believe you. Look into my eyes and tell me you love me.

[Eye of the Tiger]

You don't even know what you don't know.  That's the worst part.

You haven't said a single thing about suspension that I don't already know more about than you do.

[MrH]

I like the ride of the car as it is. Very comfortable for a sports car/GT, which is good for the main purpose of the car, which is touring. The secondary purpose, though, is fast curvy road driving, and for that, I think it's a little too soft and rolly. So, while I want it stiffer for that purpose, I don't want to damage the appeal of the car for touring. As a benchmark of what I don't want, I submit the Alfa, which handles great, etc., but is a good deal bumpier over really any tiny imperfection. It has Koni yellows. Good for that car's purpose (commuting and fast driving, probably not touring).

Ride height is currently screwed up, as the rear t-bars need to be adjusted, but in general, I like the ride height. Looks good, not to low. I'm not convinced the front springs haven't collapsed a little.

My approach at this point is incremental modification. I haven't done any suspension modding before, so even informed opinions don't really count, since I don't have a baseline. I was going to go with Konis and 220 lb springs and fatter sways, but, a) that's $$$, and b) it's probably too stiff and bouncy. Shocks for now, then later if I still think it's too rolly, springs and/or sways. I can do most of that work myself (not the rear torsion bars, but the rest of it), so I'm less concerned about that additional cost. I'll probably update this thread when I get the shocks put on and then we'll see.

As far as spring rates and such, yes, and that is what I was hoping to get into a little bit. Seemed obvious to me that the weight of the car and the geometry of the suspension would affect what the right rate would be for a given purpose, as well as the dampers and their rates and such. I mean, you wouldn't put 200 lb springs in a 3/4 ton truck!

The only issue is, in replacing the just shocks, you could be putting in new springs.  If you decide to do it after the fact, you've got to pay for the labor all over again.  If you're doing all the work yourself, then it's just wasted time, but I thought your mechanic was doing it...?

You'll see a big improvement with just new shocks and getting your torsion bars adjusted.  Yeah, doing it incrementally sounds like a good plan.  Come back and say what you think.

[Rupert]

Well, I can do all of the front myself and the shocks in the back, and the sways. But the right control arm has a bad ball joint, so it has to be replaced, which I don't want to do (can't easily rebuild them), so the mechanic might as well do the front struts. Also, the front struts are just getting the inserts replaced, which is a little more of a PITA than I want to deal with. The t-bars require a huge effort to replace or adjust, which I'm not doing, so the mechanic might as well replace the rear shocks while he's at it. Later, If I do springs and t-bars, the t-bars are the only think I would want a mechanic for.

[MrH]

You haven't said a single thing about suspension that I don't already know more about than you do.

Let's see, I'm a product design engineer for the company that makes the bulk of Porsche's shocks and suspension components.  You're a mechanic tech school dropout.  One of these things is not like the other

I'm not going to get into roll rates, roll gradients, natural frequency, etc.  I'm not here to teach you.  I'm just trying to help the guy out with his 944

[Rupert]

I don't believe you. Look into my eyes and tell me you love me.

Whoa whoa whoa, back off, man, I need some space! I thought we were just talking about a fun evening, and here you go with love and shit...

[Eye of the Tiger]

Let's see, I'm a product design engineer for the company that makes the bulk of Porsche's shocks and suspension components.  You're a mechanic tech school dropout.  One of these things is not like the other

I'm not going to get into roll rates, roll gradients, natural frequency, etc.  I'm not here to teach you.  I'm just trying to help the guy out with his 944

You have a narrow focus on specific product design parameters, and are obviously still pretty wet behind the ears when it comes to grasping how shit works in the real world. I think you mentioned that you are moving into management. Guess they don't want you working on suspension anymore. I have met too many engineers that didnt know shit about what happens outside of their calculator to give you any credit for a bullshit degree and job title.
I have been doing this shit since before you could grow pubes on your face, so just keep trying to discredit me while you give vague and worthless advice on things you have no experience in.

[Rupert]

Nick, for real, give it a rest. Everyone else, let Nick do what he wants without all of us criticizing it. Jesus.

[MrH]

You have a narrow focus on specific product design parameters, and are obviously still pretty wet behind the ears when it comes to grasping how shit works in the real world. I think you mentioned that you are moving into management. Guess they don't want you working on suspension anymore. I have met too many engineers that didnt know shit about what happens outside of their calculator to give you any credit for a bullshit degree and job title.
I have been doing this shit since before you could grow pubes on your face, so just keep trying to discredit me while you give vague and worthless advice on things you have no experience in.

With all that experience, you should be consulting for every car company out there! Just show them the springs you cut on the Accent and they'll be lining up around the block

[Eye of the Tiger]

With all that experience, you should be consulting for every car company out there! Just show them the springs you cut on the Accent and they'll be lining up around the block

And we are back to square one, in which MrH makes himself look like a stupid asshole by pretending that nobody can cut a coil spring without the universe imploding.

[Rupert]

Get a room or give it a rest!

[Eye of the Tiger]

Get a room or give it a rest!

Suspension.

[Rupert]

Suspension!

New shocks, Bilstein heavy duty. Much better, though part of that is that the old shocks were pretty worn and/or leaking fluid. I need to get it aligned and drive it some, but I think it's probably a little too rolly still. I don't want the ride to get much if any stiffer, though.

Also had a miscommunication with the mechanic, and the ride height got adjusted with the eccentric adjuster things only, and not the full torsion bar re-index, so I'll probably want to do that, too.

[S204STi]

IIRC, it was Nick who decided to troll MrH, not the other way around.  He's a hack and we all know it, but he refuses to back down.  It's like reverse-snobbery; he's snobby about his disregard for good chassis tuning techniques.