Updated 2016 Accord

[GoCougs]

Do you know how a manual transmission works? What does the size of a car have to do with its shifting mechanism?
Im not going in circles with you anymore. Now you are taking points I made and claiming them as your own lol. And after all those keystrokes you still haven't answered the question. Only person who takes being wrong worse is r0tor.

As a red-blooded American who has owned a full-size pickup with M/T, well, I can tell you you'll just have to do it to find out, and I'm talking about more than punishing a clutch when backing up a trailer or shifting when in 4Lo.

Meh, *rot0r shrug* to the rest.

[12,000 RPM]

Now we have moved the goalposts 20 ft to accommodate backing up a trailer in 4Lo

[GoCougs]

Do autos truly get better mileage in real-world driving, or just in EPA tests in which automakers program the shift points to suit the test?

My only real-world experience pf M/T vs. CVTs, and of course that is a resounding yes. But many AT cars aren't CVTs.

Firstly, ATs have always been tuned for quickest upshifts when in "D" (and tight converters if so equipped).

Secondly, some ATs these days typically have 1-2 more gears than their MT counterparts (G37, 3er, Corvette, Mustang, Camaro, etc., etc.).

Third, since the engine knows exactly when the transmission will be shifting it can, it can modulate the engine for best efficiency (any mismatch in RPM and gear engagement = loss momentum = lost MPG).

Fourth, ATs typically have a bigger gear ratio spread and taller top gear (sometimes much more so, as in the G37) as the converter can act a bit like a clutch when needed.

[GoCougs]

Now we have moved the goalposts 20 ft to accommodate backing up a trailer in 4Lo

Who said anything about size of vehicle shifting mechanism (whatever that is)?

I'm still crying out FWIW.

[MX793]

My only real-world experience pf M/T vs. CVTs, and of course that is a resounding yes. But many AT cars aren't CVTs.

Firstly, ATs have always been tuned for quickest upshifts when in "D" (and tight converters if so equipped).

Secondly, some ATs these days typically have 1-2 more gears than their MT counterparts (G37, 3er, Corvette, Mustang, Camaro, etc., etc.).

Third, since the engine knows exactly when the transmission will be shifting it can, it can modulate the engine for best efficiency (any mismatch in RPM and gear engagement = loss momentum = lost MPG).

Fourth, ATs typically have a bigger gear ratio spread and taller top gear (sometimes much more so, as in the G37) as the converter can act a bit like a clutch when needed.

I've owned 3 manuals and one automatic.  Never had trouble exceeding EPA numbers in the manuals.  The auto?  I'm lucky to match EPA.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Now we have moved the goalposts 20 ft to accommodate backing up a trailer in 4Lo

4lo is actually easier than 4hi. Throttle input is rarely necessary.

[Raza]

I'd pay some decent coin to see you of all people try to muscle about a Suburban with a M/T .

Make it happen.

[12,000 RPM]

Fuelly and the EPA indicate the difference is not that big for many cars. When a mainstreamer is available with stick and auto, stick is always faster, gas mileage is generally within 1-2 MPG combined. CVT, DSG, regular planetary box, doesn't matter. Premise gets weaker and weaker.

[AutobahnSHO]

So what vehicles in the top 30 are better in any way to drive with a M/T?

All of them.

Autos are for ninnies who can't drive or people who are stuck because the car they want doesn't come in manual.

[Raza]

All of them.

Autos are for ninnies who can't drive or people who are stuck because the car they want doesn't come in manual.

I remember many times looking for a car, saying things like "I'm flexible on colors. Black, gray, blue, red, even silver or white maybe. Just nothing loud, like yellow. I'm fine with low numbers of options. My only must have is a manual [and a sunroof if fixed roof]." Then you'd have idiots coming back with "I found a car that's exactly what you want....except it's an automatic." Do you mean that it's a car that's been painted? Because my one no-budge requirement was a stick. Transmission is so fundamental to the experience of a car, I can't imagine wanting a car that is an automatic unless it's something really old and relaxed like an old SL. Something that inspires you to just cruise and never really get on it; where the enjoyment isn't about driving hard and pushing yourself. But then again, I would still lament having to wait for the transmission to react to my inputs rather than being proactive. Automatics just suck. But, for a Pagoda SL, I think I'd forgive one.

[Byteme]

I remember many times looking for a car, saying things like "I'm flexible on colors. Black, gray, blue, red, even silver or white maybe. Just nothing loud, like yellow. I'm fine with low numbers of options. My only must have is a manual [and a sunroof if fixed roof]." Then you'd have idiots coming back with "I found a car that's exactly what you want....except it's an automatic." Do you mean that it's a car that's been painted? Because my one no-budge requirement was a stick. Transmission is so fundamental to the experience of a car, I can't imagine wanting a car that is an automatic unless it's something really old and relaxed like an old SL. Something that inspires you to just cruise and never really get on it; where the enjoyment isn't about driving hard and pushing yourself. But then again, I would still lament having to wait for the transmission to react to my inputs rather than being proactive. Automatics just suck. But, for a Pagoda SL, I think I'd forgive one.

Our CLK is an automatic, the only slush box we've owned and driven in 25 years.  The automatic suits the car, so I'm OK with it.  Still though I'd have preferred a 5 speed manual in the car. 

I'd have bought an SLK just because they come with  manual, but the luggage space is  pathetic and since we use the car for trips it would not be a practical choice.

[GoCougs]

4lo is actually easier than 4hi. Throttle input is rarely necessary.

Shifting, bro, esp. under power. All that reduction is much more likely to make it a herky jerky affair.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Shifting, bro, esp. under power. All that reduction is much more likely to make it a herky jerky affair.

Don't act like I haven't owned at least three manual 4x4s. In fact, letting an automatic shift in 4lo is obscenely unsmooth in every vehicle I have driven. I cannot help your lack of skill with a clutch. Like many things, it takes practice, and some people will just never get it.

[GoCougs]

Don't act like I haven't owned at least three manual 4x4s. In fact, letting an automatic shift in 4lo is obscenely unsmooth in every vehicle I have driven. I cannot help your lack of skill with a clutch. Like many things, it takes practice, and some people will just never get it.

I remind you of something you already know: most off road 4WD rigs, factory and modified, amateur and professional, are chosen to be AT (which is not because buyers/drivers/builders didn't "practice" how to drive M/T).

[Char]

E90 manual is quicker/gets better fuel economy...when modded though...

[Cookie Monster]

I think an automatic NC Miata gets at least 8-10 mpg more than mine.

Then again, my foot is always on the floor and the tach is always at 5k+.

[AutobahnSHO]

I remind you of something you already know: most off road 4WD rigs, factory and modified, amateur and professional, are chosen to be AT (which is not because buyers/drivers/builders didn't "practice" how to drive M/T).

???     You really don't know any jeepers do you

[Eye of the Tiger]

???     You really don't know any jeepers do you

Or Samurai enthusiasts.

In fact, real, actual professional off roaders who require the greatest in durability an on-trail serviceability will use a throttle lock and/or hand throttle and/or redundant hand brake controls, not opt for an overheating AT.

It is entirely possible to replace a clutch in the field, but rebuilding, or doing any work on an AT requires a near sterile environment.

[GoCougs]

Sure some like M/Ts but that doesn't invalidate that in total most off road rigs of any stripe and level are AT.

AT conversions are common for CJ-5/7 - feel free to Google all of the threads and sites and videos. These rigs are all AT. Get a good tight converter and you have far better wheel speed control, which is important in getting thru a course like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgZWLFaiW5g

AT can be kept cool with the right plumbing and coolers. Not so easy to cool a clutch, esp. when it is slipped and ridden as has to be done for plenty of off road tasks.

AT are greatly more difficult to work on but they are plenty durable if done right. In the grand scheme of things, there are more failed clutches (which requires that the tranny come out anyways) than failed ATs.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Sure some like M/Ts but that doesn't invalidate that in total most off road rigs of any stripe and level are AT.

AT conversions are common for CJ-5/7 - feel free to Google all of the threads and sites and videos. These rigs are all AT. Get a good tight converter and you have far better wheel speed control, which is important in getting thru a course like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgZWLFaiW5g

AT can be kept cool with the right plumbing and coolers. Not so easy to cool a clutch, esp. when it is slipped and ridden as has to be done for plenty of off road tasks.

AT are greatly more difficult to work on but they are plenty durable if done right. In the grand scheme of things, there are more failed clutches (which requires that the tranny come out anyways) than failed ATs.

Discourse is pointless when everything pulled out of one's ass. But please, do continue with your contrarionism for its own sake.

[AutobahnSHO]

meh, googling show a ford vs. chevy type endless debate.

But for those scared of a 3rd pedal please continue to buy automatics.

[GoCougs]

The two most capable off road/4WD factory rigs that can be driven on the street (Hummer H1 and Ford Raptor) are both AT only.
Formula hill climbers are all AT (see 1:56) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or8BZctyRpo
Custom buggies are all AT (see 1:05) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpoKsIO6v7k
Custom rock crawlers are all AT (see 3:00) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOdny710vw
Big mud trucks are all AT - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbbR-VxBJ28
CJ-7 w/AT swap and there are near countless vids (see 0:10) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYBKQr_6vn0

There is no counter argument to the fact that most off road rigs of any type or stripe are AT.

[MX793]

H1 is A/T to maximize the number of users who can operate it.  Saves the military from having to train soldiers how to drive stick.  Not to mention wear and tear incurred when they are operated by those who don't know how.

Raptor is A/T because Ford doesn't have an M/T on the shelf that would work (no M/T in any F150).

Hill climbers are A/T for the same reason most dragsters are.  They're very similar vehicle types.

[Eye of the Tiger]

The two most capable off road/4WD factory rigs that can be driven on the street (Hummer H1 and Ford Raptor) are both AT only.
Formula hill climbers are all AT (see 1:56) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or8BZctyRpo
Custom buggies are all AT (see 1:05) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpoKsIO6v7k
Custom rock crawlers are all AT (see 3:00) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOdny710vw
Big mud trucks are all AT - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbbR-VxBJ28
CJ-7 w/AT swap and there are near countless vids (see 0:10) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYBKQr_6vn0

There is no counter argument to the fact that most off road rigs of any type or stripe are AT.

Nobody argued against "most", or easiest to operate. Just "best".
Your internetery is low, Gougs

[GoCougs]

H1 is A/T to maximize the number of users who can operate it.  Saves the military from having to train soldiers how to drive stick.  Not to mention wear and tear incurred when they are operated by those who don't know how.

Raptor is A/T because Ford doesn't have an M/T on the shelf that would work (no M/T in any F150).

Hill climbers are A/T for the same reason most dragsters are.  They're very similar vehicle types.

I'm sure ease of use is part of it, but also the H1 would have limitations in performance with a M/T owing to low power, slow-to-rev diesel and lots of gear ratio (i.e., interruption in wheel speed is bad) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pueVmxUJTD0

Automakers don't decide what to put in their vehicles because of what is or isn't "on the shelf." Either way, the Raptor's off road analog, the Trophy Truck (the fastest class in the Baja 1000, et al.), are all AT and the old GM TH400 no less (http://www.fourwheeler.com/features/trophy-truck-technology-2/).

Sure, there are lots of reasons why ATs dominate off road, but nonetheless they do.

[GoCougs]

Nobody argued against "most", or easiest to operate. Just "best".
Your internetery is low, Gougs

M/T are not the best either overall. If they were custom rigs and Trophy Trucks and CJs all the rest would mostly be M/T. Most aren't because M/T is a performance detriment in many/most off road situations vs. a properly sorted AT.

[12,000 RPM]

Automakers don't decide what to put in their vehicles because of what is or isn't "on the shelf."

!!!

[AutobahnSHO]

(Hummer H1

-998 internetry

Americans buy 98% auto transmissions in the civilian sector because they can't drive. Army isn't going to teach people to drive stick. Trying to drive in combat zone is super stressful. So NO CLUTCH since like 1970s.

(you might get a point back if you know why I picked the number I picked)

[AutobahnSHO]

(no M/T in any F150).

serious??     I've only driven two F150 and the first one had a clutch. (1990s)

[MX793]

serious??     I've only driven two F150 and the first one had a clutch. (1990s)

Ford stopped offering the MT option when they dropped the 4.2L V6 (only engine you could pair with the MT) back in '07.  That powertrain combination was fleet-only for the final couple of years, so I think '03 might have been the last year an MT was available to any buyer.  I believe '96 was the last year you could get an MT w/ V8 in the F-150.