Lexus ES

[Raza]

Wow, do you guys not like Lexus at all?

IMO Lexus makes the best Luxury car if you dont care about performance, and want a car isolated from the road. If a car is a vehicle to get you from point A to point B a Lexus is probably the best car for you. However, we're enthusiasts here, we want cars more like BMW's that are both luxurious and sporty. We don't want to be isolated from the road and want a car more thats about balance, and fun to drive.

For the money, if you want isolation, buy a Lincoln, Deville, or Buick.  

[TBR]

Wow, do you guys not like Lexus at all?

IMO Lexus makes the best Luxury car if you dont care about performance, and want a car isolated from the road. If a car is a vehicle to get you from point A to point B a Lexus is probably the best car for you. However, we're enthusiasts here, we want cars more like BMW's that are both luxurious and sporty. We don't want to be isolated from the road and want a car more thats about balance, and fun to drive.

Buick is coming fast, they may not ever offer much competition for the LS but the ES is definitely within their grasp (actually, I think the Lacrosse is a far superior car to the ES).  

[ifcar]

Unless, of course, you'd like to carry adults in the rear seat.

[TBR]

The Lacrosse can't be that bad, in fact it looks pretty roomy to me:

[ifcar]

So you've never actually been in one? Anything looks roomy if you slide the front seats forward.

[TBR]

I have been in one, just not in the rear seat. Here is another image that is more accurate:

The seats definitely aren't all the way up there.

For comparison purposes:


Don't see that much of a difference myself. Besides, I would rather have the Lacrosse's suspension than a little bit more rear seat space.

[ifcar]

Edmunds:
The rear bench itself is comfortable, but there's not much room for adults to spread out...Although it's just as big as the others [Avalon, Five Hundred, 300] on the outside, the Buick has the lowest passenger volume (99.4 cubic feet), and when you hop in back, there's less room in every direction. The rear bench itself is properly angled for comfort ? provided the front occupants don't steal all the legroom.

Consumer Reports:
In the rear, however, leg room and head room are tight, and thigh support is limited.

Car and Driver:
The LaCrosse is sized toward the upper end of this group at 198.1 inches long, about halfway between the large Ford and the not-quite-so-large Chrysler. But the rear-passenger space feels smallest of all. We particularly didn't like the way the rear roof pillars crowd in on the heads of outer passengers when seated three across. GM can't seem to give up on coupe rooflines.

[TBR]

Notice how your quotes all compared the Lacrosse to cars that are a class larger than the ES, how helpful .

[TBR]

From edmunds:
ES330:
Rear Head Room: 36.9 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 55.8 in.    
Rear Hip Room: 55.5 in.
Rear Leg Room: 35.6 in.

Lacrosse:
Rear Head Room: 37.2 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 57 in.    
Rear Hip Room: 54.6 in.
Rear Leg Room: 37.6 in.

Wow, what remarkable differences  

[ifcar]

Notice how your quotes all compared the Lacrosse to cars that are a class larger than the ES, how helpful .

Same sources, for the current ES:

Edmunds:
In the backseat, we found the ES 300 to be as spacious as the I35, and editors preferred its seatback rake and softer cushioning to the Infiniti's (though the fold-down center armrest felt hard against the center passenger's back).

Consumer Reports:
The rear bench is comfortable for three adults and offers some thigh support, but head room is limited.

Car and Driver:
There is adequate space in the comfortable stern for adults, whose boots will slide under the front seats and whose knees will nestle into scalloped pockets in the front seatbacks. Even so, rear head clearance is tight enough that the hair on a five-foot-eleven editor does the static tango with the headliner.


It's no limo either, but at least it's passably comfortable.

The LaCrosse has much less rear seat space even than most midsize sedans, and it's bigger outside than an Avalon.

[TBR]

So now you post quotes comparing the ES to midsizers and that is supposed to mean something? Yes, the Lacrosse is bigger than the ES, but pricewise it is still much cheaper so it is reasonable to compare the two But you simply can't compare the two indirectly because the mags consider them to compete with different vehicles.

Frankly, I think it is ridiculous to say that the Lacrosse isn't passably comfortable. In fact, that is just a stupid thing to say because it obviously is. No, it may not be as roomy as the ES330 (though I don't think the difference is nearly as big as you are making it out to be), but these cars aren't meant to be family cars anyway. The only time the back seats will be used by the target audience is to take friends out to dinner and the Lacrosse is perfectly suitable for that I think. Besides, I for one would rather be a little cramped than seasick

[ifcar]

No, it is NOT. I have been in the car, you have not, and I can tell you whether or not the seat is comfortable. You cannot tell me shit.  

[TBR]

Ohh..iffy lost his temper.

Sorry, but the Lacrosse clearly is passable, it may not be as comfortable or as roomy as the ES (no problem admitting that I haven't spent enough time in the back seats to make that comparison), but it is definitely passable! Do you not understand the meaning of passable?  

[mazda6er]

You're a very charming young lad Timothy. Has anyone ever told you that?

[TBR]

Just to clear things up:
Passable- Such as may be accepted or allowed to pass without serious objection; adequate; acceptable; tolerable; admissable; moderate; mediocre.

So the Lacrosse's rear seat is intolerable, unadmissable, unacceptable, and worthy of serious objection? I think not. It may not be up to the standard of cars of its size, or even cars of smaller size, but two people can still sut on it without being uncomfortably cramped.

[TBR]

You're a very charming young lad Timothy. Has anyone ever told you that?

Many times Mark, many times. :D

Note- I am remembering your name right, right?

[ifcar]

"Sorry, but the Lacrosse clearly is passable, it may not be as comfortable or as roomy as the ES (no problem admitting that I haven't spent enough time in the back seats to make that comparison), but it is definitely passable! Do you not understand the meaning of passable?"

Yes. Do you think that can really be determined from a picture of a seat?


^Looks pretty nice, doesn't it?

[mazda6er]

You're a very charming young lad Timothy. Has anyone ever told you that?

Many times Mark, many times. :D

Note- I am remembering your name right, right?

Yeah, you are. It's in my sig, also.  

I think maybe we should agree to disagree here. Although to add my 2 cents, numbers can lie, especially in interior car dimensions. It's pretty tough to make any assumptions until one actually experiences the back seat spaces in question.

:wave:  

[TBR]

You're a very charming young lad Timothy. Has anyone ever told you that?

Many times Mark, many times. :D

Note- I am remembering your name right, right?

Yeah, you are. It's in my sig, also.  

I think maybe we should agree to disagree here. Although to add my 2 cents, numbers can lie, especially in interior car dimensions. It's pretty tough to make any assumptions until one actually experiences the back seat spaces in question.

:wave:

I agree that numbers can lie, I merely am using them to prove that the Lacrosse is passable, not that it is necessarily comfortable. There is a difference you know.

[ifcar]

Just to clear things up:
Passable- Such as may be accepted or allowed to pass without serious objection; adequate; acceptable; tolerable; admissable; moderate; mediocre.

So the Lacrosse's rear seat is untolerable, unadmissable, unacceptable, and worthy of serious objection? I think not. It may not be up to the standard of cars of its size, or even cars of smaller size, but two people can still sut on it without being uncomfortably cramped.

I would happily use any of those adjectives (except "untolerable", which isn't a word). Two adults cannot sit in reasonable comfort in that car, and it's even worse considering the car's exterior dimensions.

A Focus, Corolla, Aerio, or even A Civic or new Jetta have better rear seating.  

[mazda6er]

You're a very charming young lad Timothy. Has anyone ever told you that?

Many times Mark, many times. :D

Note- I am remembering your name right, right?

Yeah, you are. It's in my sig, also.  

I think maybe we should agree to disagree here. Although to add my 2 cents, numbers can lie, especially in interior car dimensions. It's pretty tough to make any assumptions until one actually experiences the back seat spaces in question.

:wave:

I agree that numbers can lie, I merely am using them to prove that the Lacrosse is passable, not that it is necessarily comfortable. There is a difference you know.

Based on what I know, I would assume that it is "passable" by most definitions.

[TBR]

I don't believe you one bit, and not even the mags agree (they would have made a much bigger deal about it if the Lacrosse's rear seat was really that bad). I will definitely be sitting in the Lacrosse's back seat next time I have a chance. In fact, I might even drop by the local Buick dealership sometime.

And, who said anything about untolerable? :P

[ifcar]

Every serious review I've seen except for Consumer Guide's did in fact make a big deal out of the rear seat. It's definitely the vehicle's biggest flaw IMO.  

[TBR]

No they didn't. I don't see one mention of uncomfortable or intolerable or anything similar in your quotes.  

[ifcar]

Consumer Reports' only mentions of the rear seat center around the space, with numerous synonyms for "too small", which would register as uncomfortable in my book. Car and Driver only glanced by it, and Edmunds liked the rear seat shape but criticized the space. As I believe they did for such cars as the Audi A4, Lincoln LS, and Lexus IS, which have decent seat shapes but insufficient space.  

[TBR]

Yes, I see that. But, not once did they say intolerable or uncomfortable, just that it isn't as roomy as its size class competition (which wouldn't even include the ES330!)

[ifcar]

CR did not, in fact, compare it to other large sedans in their size statements.

[TBR]

I am sure that comparisons with its competitors were the basis for their comments. Next time I am in town and find myself with some free time I will stop by the Buick dealer and see if it really is that bad. Frankly, they are all the pretty much the same to me as I am not particulary comfortable in the back seat of anything short of a crew cab truck, but I am sure I would be able to realize if something was intolerable.  

[ifcar]

Of course you will. If you won't tolerate any normal-sized vehicle, I doubt you'll make an exception for this one, being objective.

Sit in a Lucerne while you're at it.  

[TBR]

But I do tolerate them, I am just not very comfortable. And, actually, I am fine as long as the trips are short, but after an hour or so my knees start hurting.