IFCAR Comparo: Ultra-Luxury Sedans

[ifcar]

Ironic...I just saw an S430 for the first time this morning...its trunk was dented.  :angry:  lol


Nice review though...I merely skimmed it (don't really like to read stuff online) but it seemed thorough...

Where the heck do you drive all these cars?  Do you have some secret identity or something?!  :o 

yeah, did you get test drives? i doubt a salesman would let someone driving an Escort testdrive one (no offense).

These salespeople don't need to know what I pull up in. And they don't.

Pretty much any dealership wants to sell cars, and if they see a well dressed man wishing to take a test-drive, they have no reason not to let him.  I dont believe you need special connections, or anything like that.  You need connections to test drive Maseratis, and Ferraris (if you are even able to do that at all).

Go frequently enough though, and they start to figure out that you aren't exactly there to buy a car. Thus, always take a different person with you when you go, if possible.  

You've got this all figured out, don't you.  :P  

To a science.  

[ifcar]

"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.

The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.

[BMWDave]

"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.

The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.

C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.

[ifcar]

"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.

The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.

C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.

Remember that theirs had the Sport Package.  

[BMWDave]

"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.? Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?? I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.

The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.

C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.

Remember that theirs had the Sport Package.

AutoMag also liked the 745Li's handling and driving dynamics.

"The BMW 745Li should be the numero uno in this test, but its excellent performance at the test track and its even more impressive performance on challenging country roads are badly offset by iDrive. The iDrive system represents a layer of complexity that actually detracts from what ought to be a breathtaking driving experience. BMW bills itself as "the ultimate driving machine," and our test car would have been all that and more without the iDrive."

Was there a comparo that tested it without th esport package?

[ifcar]

"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.

The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.

C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.

Remember that theirs had the Sport Package.

AutoMag also liked the 745Li's handling and driving dynamics.

"The BMW 745Li should be the numero uno in this test, but its excellent performance at the test track and its even more impressive performance on challenging country roads are badly offset by iDrive. The iDrive system represents a layer of complexity that actually detracts from what ought to be a breathtaking driving experience. BMW bills itself as "the ultimate driving machine," and our test car would have been all that and more without the iDrive."

Was there a comparo that tested it without th esport package?

Yes. It's found here.  :P

Seriously though, I believe the CR review of the 745Li was the only other non-Sport comparison test.

[BMWDave]

"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.? Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?? I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.

The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.

C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.

Remember that theirs had the Sport Package.

AutoMag also liked the 745Li's handling and driving dynamics.

"The BMW 745Li should be the numero uno in this test, but its excellent performance at the test track and its even more impressive performance on challenging country roads are badly offset by iDrive. The iDrive system represents a layer of complexity that actually detracts from what ought to be a breathtaking driving experience. BMW bills itself as "the ultimate driving machine," and our test car would have been all that and more without the iDrive."

Was there a comparo that tested it without th esport package?

Yes. It's found here.  :P

Seriously though, I believe the CR review of the 745Li was the only other non-Sport comparison test.

Lol

My point was that all the sport mags have found the 7er to be more sporty than the Jag.  I wouldnt go to CR for a sporty review. B)  

[ifcar]

"A couple of people found the Jag's dynamics not to their liking. Said Bornhop, "It's the least well-controlled of the bunch. Underdamped and a trifle floaty, not buttoned-up like the BMW."

Thats from a R&T Review.  Why did you find the Jag's ride more sporty?  I thought the BMW was the sport leader in this segment.

The Jag feels lighter and nimbler than the BMW, and has better steering. It all comes down to opinion.

And you can find a source anywhere to tell you anything. R/T didn't like the XJ8, C/D loved it, and most other sources fall in between.

C/D liked the Jag because it was gizmo free...on the contrary, they love the BMW's road prowess, and nowhere did they say it bested the BMWs.  The BMW won in every performance category.

Remember that theirs had the Sport Package.

AutoMag also liked the 745Li's handling and driving dynamics.

"The BMW 745Li should be the numero uno in this test, but its excellent performance at the test track and its even more impressive performance on challenging country roads are badly offset by iDrive. The iDrive system represents a layer of complexity that actually detracts from what ought to be a breathtaking driving experience. BMW bills itself as "the ultimate driving machine," and our test car would have been all that and more without the iDrive."

Was there a comparo that tested it without th esport package?

Yes. It's found here.  :P

Seriously though, I believe the CR review of the 745Li was the only other non-Sport comparison test.

Lol

My point was that all the sport mags have found the 7er to be more sporty than the Jag.  I wouldnt go to CR for a sporty review. B)

No one said that you should.  :blink:  

[BMWDave]

Usually finding a sporty car isnt subjective...if its got the right attributes, it will be sporty.  And other mags found the car more sporty than the Jag, so I'm still wondering how you found the Jag sportier.  (I have to check up a reivew without the sport package.

[ifcar]

Usually finding a sporty car isnt subjective...if its got the right attributes, it will be sporty.  And other mags found the car more sporty than the Jag, so I'm still wondering how you found the Jag sportier.  (I have to check up a reivew without the sport package.

Maybe they thought the BMW handled better at 80 mph or on a slolom course, but in normal driving the Jag is more tossable.  

[BMWDave]

Usually finding a sporty car isnt subjective...if its got the right attributes, it will be sporty.  And other mags found the car more sporty than the Jag, so I'm still wondering how you found the Jag sportier.  (I have to check up a reivew without the sport package.

Maybe they thought the BMW handled better at 80 mph or on a slolom course, but in normal driving the Jag is more tossable.

Did you get a chance to toss them around at higher speeds, or did you only drive them in normal ways?  (I guess you cant toss around a test drive car).  And I sent you another PM about the issue.

[ifcar]

Usually finding a sporty car isnt subjective...if its got the right attributes, it will be sporty.  And other mags found the car more sporty than the Jag, so I'm still wondering how you found the Jag sportier.  (I have to check up a reivew without the sport package.

Maybe they thought the BMW handled better at 80 mph or on a slolom course, but in normal driving the Jag is more tossable.

Did you get a chance to toss them around at higher speeds, or did you only drive them in normal ways?  (I guess you cant toss around a test drive car).  And I sent you another PM about the issue.

Higher speeds meaning 80 mph? No. Higher speeds meaning highway speeds? Yes.

[TBR]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).  

[BMWDave]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Maser is about 20K more.

[Raghavan]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Maser is about 20K more.

if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.

[TBR]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Maser is about 20K more.

if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.

Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.  

[BMWDave]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430? should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would? say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Maser is about 20K more.

if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.

Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.

I love the Maserati, but 20K is 20K, anyway you look at it.  We're not talking about a couple thousand between a Ls and a 7 here.  Its 20K dollars.

[Raghavan]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Maser is about 20K more.

if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.

Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.

I love the Maserati, but 20K is 20K, anyway you look at it.  We're not talking about a couple thousand between a Ls and a 7 here.  Its 20K dollars.

relatively speaking. The difference between a 20k car and a 40k car is the same as the difference between a 80k car and a 100k car, but the 40k car costs twice the amount of the 20k car, while the 100k car only costs 25% more.

[ifcar]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Lexus requires only the sacrifice of sporty handling, while too many of the others sacrifice comfort, refinement, and price. For most people, who don't necessarily require sporty handling, the LS430 makes the most sense.

And I would completely disagree with anyone who calls the ride overly soft, unless they just mean they'd prefer it firmer for additional agility, at which point I'd only partly disagree.

[BMWDave]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430? should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would? say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Maser is about 20K more.

if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.

Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.

I love the Maserati, but 20K is 20K, anyway you look at it.  We're not talking about a couple thousand between a Ls and a 7 here.  Its 20K dollars.

relatively speaking. The difference between a 20k car and a 40k car is the same as the difference between a 80k car and a 100k car, but the 40k car costs twice the amount of the 20k car, while the 100k car only costs 25% more.

Its still 20K though.  Which is a big difference.

[Raghavan]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Maser is about 20K more.

if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.

Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.

I love the Maserati, but 20K is 20K, anyway you look at it.  We're not talking about a couple thousand between a Ls and a 7 here.  Its 20K dollars.

relatively speaking. The difference between a 20k car and a 40k car is the same as the difference between a 80k car and a 100k car, but the 40k car costs twice the amount of the 20k car, while the 100k car only costs 25% more.

Its still 20K though.  Which is a big difference.

not for the buyer of a 80k car.

[ifcar]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Maser is about 20K more.

if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.

Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.

A $15,000 price difference for comparably-equipped vehicles IS significant, especially to those who are already paying $70,000. The wealthy do not have unlimited funds either.

It is always very easy to keep going once you say "it's only a little more". Once you get up to $100K, "it's not so much more" up to a Mercedes S600, and from there on and on until you reach a Maybach.

You have to set a limit somewhere.  

[TBR]

Let me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.  So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.  

[BMWDave]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430? should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would? say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Maser is about 20K more.

if people can afford a $80 k car, they can probably afford a 100k car too.

Exactly, which is why I don't think the LS430's price advantage over the 750li is that big of a deal.

A $15,000 price difference for comparably-equipped vehicles IS significant, especially to those who are already paying $70,000. The wealthy do not have unlimited funds either.

It is always very easy to keep going once you say "it's only a little more". Once you get up to $100K, "it's not so much more" up to a Mercedes S600, and from there on and on until you reach a Maybach.

You have to set a limit somewhere.

Well said.

[Raghavan]

Let me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.  So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.

agreed. if someone actually has the money to blow 80k on a CAR, they're probably quite rich, with more money in the bank, so $20k won't seem like much to them.

[TBR]

At this price point I don't think buyers should have to make any sacrifice whether it be ride comfort (the Jaguar's, by the way, has been called too soft by numerous mags) or driving excitement. That is why I don't think the LS430  should have won. In fact, I personally don't think any of these cars are really as good as they should be, but since the BMW comes the closest I would  say it is best in class. But, I would still take a XJR over it any day of the week as well as the beautiful car in my sig (sorry, I don't care for the BMW's styling or interior).

The Lexus requires only the sacrifice of sporty handling, while too many of the others sacrifice comfort, refinement, and price. For most people, who don't necessarily require sporty handling, the LS430 makes the most sense.

And I would completely disagree with anyone who calls the ride overly soft, unless they just mean they'd prefer it firmer for additional agility, at which point I'd only partly disagree.

Sounds to me that both the LS430 and 750li require only one sacrifice. With the LS430 it is a fun driving experience and with the 750li it is money. I personally think that at this level a car that you would enjoying driving is worth an extra $10,000.  

[BMWDave]

Let me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.  So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.

I would also take the Maserati, price no concern.  But 20k is still a lot more money.  Not everyone has unlimited funds.

[ifcar]

Not all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.  

[Raghavan]

Let me put it this way, if I could afford to spend $80,000 on a car I would also be able to afford to spend $100,000 on a car simply because I wouldn't even think about that spending that much money on something like a car unless I had a rather ample supply.  So, if I was ever in this situation that $20,000 really wouldn't matter and I would just buy what I wanted, which would be the Maserati or Jaguar and certainly not the BMW.

I would also take the Maserati, price no concern.  But 20k is still a lot more money.  Not everyone has unlimited funds.

True, but for a person who is able to waste $80k on a car should have enough money to buy a $100k car. it's only $20k, not $100k more that you're spending.

[Raghavan]

Not all buyers only pay what they can actually afford, however. One of my neighbors has an S500, another has a brand new XJ8. They're not much better off than I am, and we live in the same neighborhood, but they're driving cars worth close to 100 times what mine is, and they're doing it all on credit.

must be up to their eyes in debt.