Why 70 is the new 55

[GoCougs]

This is your classic response in an attempt to deflect the attention away from yourself by getting the poster to defend himself instead of calling you out.  Nice try.  It won't work anymore.

Are you not familiar with the concept of the straw man argument?

Tave in the past (IIRC it was him, maybe not) periodically parachutes in when a few you get all school girl hysterical, calming things by 'splaining how things really are.

[NomisR]

Are you not familiar with the concept of the straw man argument?

Tave in the past (IIRC it was him, maybe not) periodically parachutes in when a few you get all school girl hysterical, calming things by 'splaining how things really are.

tea pot say hello to kettle.

[GoCougs]

LOL - look at this exchange - it's just plain awful on at least two levels; it does not address my post one iota, and it is predicated on one of the worst straw men I've ever seen deployed here on the SPIN. This is the last I'm going to go into it such as to save the forum the from the distraction, but I call it out again such that maybe it can be learned from:

Safer roads = going after drunks, teens and habitual driving criminals.

After that then we can talk about rules of the road.

I love your arbitrary and selective way of selecting what is good and bad for the people.  In other words, from what I've seen, anything that you do, the government should not be involved in and anything you don't do, the government should limit it because it's bad.  How does that make you any different than the people that push for a lot of the ridiculous laws that we have in place today?  You are no better than the "liberals" you like to bash because you are one and the same, you have the same type of mentality, where the law should apply to everyone except me.  You sir, are a hypocrite.  

[2o6]

LOL - look at this exchange - it's just plain awful on at least two levels; it does not address my post one iota, and it is predicated on one of the worst straw men I've ever seen deployed here on the SPIN. This is the last I'm going to go into in such as to save the forum the from the distraction, but I call it out again such that maybe it can be learned from:

It wasn't supposed to.

[NomisR]

LOL - look at this exchange - it's just plain awful on at least two levels; it does not address my post one iota, and it is predicated on one of the worst straw men I've ever seen deployed here on the SPIN. This is the last I'm going to go into it such as to save the forum the from the distraction, but I call it out again such that maybe it can be learned from:

You obviously do not understand what I was talking about.

[Morris Minor]

Back on topic. I agree: 70 is the "natural" speed for most people on most freeways.

Since GPS came on the scene I've found that speedometers on many cars read about 3mph fast. Given that you won't be pulled over if your margin of illegality is less than 10mph, I think you are pretty safe up to and including an indicated 82 in a 70 limit. Thoughts?

[AutobahnSHO]

Of the 34 legal and practical ways in which this is a disaster, the most prominent is that it would foster to a greater degree one of the major (and hardest to address) problems on the roadways - disparate vehicle speed.

Go drive in Germany.

Somehow truck traffic (which is limited to UNDER 55mph) and car traffic (yours truly= 120mph+ at times, average= 70-90mph) survives just fine.  On 2-lane highways.

[Raza]

And their RIGHT-LANE drivers!

55mph is entirely too slow in most US areas. If you're not going 10mph over the speed limit on the east coast, you're generally holding up traffic. ESPECIALLY in VA, where they had far too many low-speed (for the traffic and road conditions) areas.

If you're doing 65 in the left lane, you're getting two bursts of high beam flashes from me, and if you don't comply, I'm passing on the right.  The left lane is for 70 or higher in a 55.  And even then, 70-75 is mostly middle lane in a three lane. 


Reminds me, some cockhole got pissy that I flashed him, so he followed me last night flashing his high beams.  I slowed down to 60, gave him a taste of his own medicine, and then gunned it.  Fuckface. 

[NomisR]

If you're doing 65 in the left lane, you're getting two bursts of high beam flashes from me, and if you don't comply, I'm passing on the right.  The left lane is for 70 or higher in a 55.  And even then, 70-75 is mostly middle lane in a three lane. 


Reminds me, some cockhole got pissy that I flashed him, so he followed me last night flashing his high beams.  I slowed down to 60, gave him a taste of his own medicine, and then gunned it.  Fuckface. 

I'm thinking of putting a scrolling text bar in my back windows that says SLOW TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT, THAT MEANS YOU!!!! FUCKFACE!!!!

[AutobahnSHO]

If you're doing 65 in the left lane, you're getting two bursts of high beam flashes from me, and if you don't comply, I'm passing on the right.  The left lane is for 70 or higher in a 55.  And even then, 70-75 is mostly middle lane in a three lane. 

Trust me, if people just stayed in the lane they're supposed to be in, we could get to where we're going MUCH MUCH faster, and the amount of accidents on the highway would drop 40-60%. GUARANTEED.

One (of the many) reasons I hate John Tesh's "super-factual you-will-get-smarter-just-listening" radio show is one time he said, "statistically, the middle lane is the safest. Also, drivers who switch lanes more often get in more wrecks."
Only in America.

In Germany little 50hp cars somehow safely pass trucks while getting passed by people who drive 100mph+. Safely.

[AutobahnSHO]

I'm thinking of putting a scrolling text bar in my back windows that says SLOW TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT, THAT MEANS YOU!!!! FUCKFACE!!!!

I have talked to the wife of getting one which has several buttons for preprogrammed messages (such as yours) but would also be able to type messages..

[NomisR]

Trust me, if people just stayed in the lane they're supposed to be in, we could get to where we're going MUCH MUCH faster, and the amount of accidents on the highway would drop 40-60%. GUARANTEED.

One (of the many) reasons I hate John Tesh's "super-factual you-will-get-smarter-just-listening" radio show is one time he said, "statistically, the middle lane is the safest. Also, drivers who switch lanes more often get in more wrecks."
Only in America.

In Germany little 50hp cars somehow safely pass trucks while getting passed by people who drive 100mph+. Safely.

Look at how wrong he is.. there are right ways and wrong ways of changing lanes, most people use the wrong way (not my way) which is why they're more likely to get into accidents.  I change lanes pretty often and almost always planned because I need to make sure I don't end up behind a slower car, so I can drive more efficiently.. and so far.. no accidents due to that. 

Every single accident I've been in so far is from sitting in traffic and someone running into me while stationary.. or someone running into me because they though the side of my car was where they should turn into...

[GoCougs]

Back on topic. I agree: 70 is the "natural" speed for most people on most freeways.

Since GPS came on the scene I've found that speedometers on many cars read about 3mph fast. Given that you won't be pulled over if your margin of illegality is less than 10mph, I think you are pretty safe up to and including an indicated 82 in a 70 limit. Thoughts?

I think in rush hour and otherwise keeping with traffic of the interstate one may be okay. I would like to think LE has better things to do; they're too (or should be) busy with targetting major offenders (20+ over), tailgaters/dangerous driving, and responding to fender benders. Outside of rush hour I think 10 mph over will get a person nailed; especially when not on the freeway or not going with the flow of traffic.

[GoCougs]

Go drive in Germany.

Somehow truck traffic (which is limited to UNDER 55mph) and car traffic (yours truly= 120mph+ at times, average= 70-90mph) survives just fine.  On 2-lane highways.

I'm sorry but I think it's a recipe for disaster.

But as to a related point, truck traffic is a major problem on US roadways for all sorts of reasons.

[GoCougs]

If you're doing 65 in the left lane, you're getting two bursts of high beam flashes from me, and if you don't comply, I'm passing on the right.  The left lane is for 70 or higher in a 55.  And even then, 70-75 is mostly middle lane in a three lane. 


Reminds me, some cockhole got pissy that I flashed him, so he followed me last night flashing his high beams.  I slowed down to 60, gave him a taste of his own medicine, and then gunned it.  Fuckface. 

Flashing someone is asking for a confrontation, no matter how much they deserve it. I highly recommend not doing that.

[SVT666]

I'm sorry but I think it's a recipe for disaster.

You have no fucking clue.  I've been on the Autobahns in Germany.  Accidents are rare compared to North America.  People actually know how to drive because they have to.  If North American drivers had to have the training Europeans do, and we put in the same kind of highway traffic laws they have, it would be brilliant.

[SVT666]

Flashing someone is asking for a confrontation, no matter how much they deserve it. I highly recommend not doing that.

[GoCougs]

Ah yes, mythical worship of magical lands coupled with a good dose of grass-is-greenerism. C'mon guys, let's inject some logic here.

The roads are safer in most other Western countries simply because they are FAR more harsh when it comes to DUI, generally have higher minimum driving ages, and are generally much stricter with enforcement (whether proliferation of speed cameras in the UK or AUS and/or harsher penalties for traffic infractions).

I know you guys want to justify by any means possible AJ Foyting about on the public roads, but you've got to be sensible about it. Tougher licensing requirements, graduated performance-based licensing, ze Autobahn, or whatever, are not a factor.

IMO, I think you guys should turn your efforts to maintaining the status quo; black boxes, ever more speed cameras and general Big Brotherism is just around the corner, and we all know it. Just look to the catastrophic State of Things in Arizona for example.

[Tave]

Go drive in Germany.

Somehow truck traffic (which is limited to UNDER 55mph) and car traffic (yours truly= 120mph+ at times, average= 70-90mph) survives just fine.  On 2-lane highways.

Germany knows that large speed disparities are one of the most dangerous situations on the highway, hence all the measures in place to deal with the inherent problems: tough licensing standards, strict lane enforcement, limited stretches of deregulated motorways, etc...



High speed Autobahn traffic doesn't "survive just fine" on its own; there are myriad safety systems in place to make it work.

[Tave]

Are you familiar with the US phenomenon of road rage?

Flashing your lights at a person, tailgating them, or blocking them in are definitely some of the triggers.


When you encounter a poor driver, the best thing you can do is remain patient and not let it frustrate you. Then find a safe way around him (if he's obstructing your progress), and forget about the incident.

[AutobahnSHO]

Germany knows that large speed disparities are one of the most dangerous situations on the highway, hence all the measures in place to deal with the inherent problems: tough licensing standards, strict lane enforcement, limited stretches of deregulated motorways, etc...



High speed Autobahn traffic doesn't "survive just fine" on its own; there are myriad safety systems in place to make it work.

There are basically only 4 things they do differently in Germany:

1- Strict safety inspections, country-wide. Oh and don't get in a wreck with bald tires. You'll get some of the blame, even if the other guy 100% hit you. You should have known better than letting your car not be 'up to standard'.
2- 100% guardrails on both sides of the roadway. The guardrail one the left (center) is about a foot away from the pavement. There are guardrails on the entrance/exit. These guardrails are not about protecting the driver/passenger, but are there to protect anyone not on the road.

There are several things that they have that are actually NOT as safe.
A- no lighting, even at entrance/exit. (you don't realize what a difference that makes until you try it
B- shorter acceleration areas to merge.

But by far the biggest differences between Germany and here are
3- Very Strict Licensing and Driver's Ed. You must be 18 to drive. It costs $1000-2000 to get a license. Driver's ed includes 80(?) hours BEHIND THE WHEEL both in the dark and on the Autobahn. Usually in a tiny manual-shift car. 
-Get a DUI? forget driving for a long long time. Licenses get revoked for big infractions.
4- Driver discipline. Even if traffic is backing up in the left lane as people are waiting for a vehicle barely going faster than a truck to pass the truck, they (usually) won't pass on the right. When they do pass they get back into the right, even if it means they're just going to have to get in the left 15 seconds later. And the people behind usually will let them back in.
-People use their mirrors. They are a little bit more courteous on the highway than we are.

[AutobahnSHO]

I'm sorry but I think it's a recipe for disaster.

But as to a related point, truck traffic is a major problem on US roadways for all sorts of reasons.

1- You're right. IF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE.
2- The amount of accidents involving trucks in the US is very low compared to the amount of traffic on the road. MOST of the time the problem is not the (professional) truck driver- it's someone who DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE.

[3.0L V6]

1- You're right. IF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE.
2- The amount of accidents involving trucks in the US is very low compared to the amount of traffic on the road. MOST of the time the problem is not the (professional) truck driver- it's someone who DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE.

I wonder if the massive amounts of money required to implement a German-style autobahn system (driver training + upgraded roadways) across the entire United States would be worth it for the benefits of the higher speed travel. I'd suspect no - I support higher speed limits in rural areas (65mph is too slow) but much past 80mph, the benefit is relatively minimal.

The enthusiast in me likes the idea, the pragmatist says it's a waste of effort.

[AutobahnSHO]

I wonder if the massive amounts of money required to implement a German-style autobahn system (driver training + upgraded roadways) across the entire United States would be worth it for the benefits of the higher speed travel. I'd suspect no - I support higher speed limits in rural areas (65mph is too slow) but much past 80mph, the benefit is relatively minimal.

The enthusiast in me likes the idea, the pragmatist says it's a waste of effort.

It's amazing what a little bit of education would do!
I remember reading a long while back (5yrs ago?) that Montana did some TV spots with their Governor. They demonstrated and explained (in < 60seconds) that you don't brake on the freeway, wait until you're in the deceleration lane. And when getting on the freeway, to quickly speed up as you're getting ON so you're the same speed as traffic and can merge (instead of people behind having to slow down or shift lanes for the merging vehicle).

Their highway accidents went down for several years.

Just from a few commercials about ONE aspect of driving.

[Raza]

Trust me, if people just stayed in the lane they're supposed to be in, we could get to where we're going MUCH MUCH faster, and the amount of accidents on the highway would drop 40-60%. GUARANTEED.

One (of the many) reasons I hate John Tesh's "super-factual you-will-get-smarter-just-listening" radio show is one time he said, "statistically, the middle lane is the safest. Also, drivers who switch lanes more often get in more wrecks."
Only in America.

In Germany little 50hp cars somehow safely pass trucks while getting passed by people who drive 100mph+. Safely.

I would like to see his statistics on that.  In my own experience over the last 7 months (~15,000 highway miles), the middle lane sees the most accidents and the most close calls.  I surmise that this due to people having to move right to pass slow cars in the left lane while people moving left to pass slow cars on the right properly; bad timing means they hit or it comes close. 

[Rupert]

Back on topic. I agree: 70 is the "natural" speed for most people on most freeways.

Since GPS came on the scene I've found that speedometers on many cars read about 3mph fast. Given that you won't be pulled over if your margin of illegality is less than 10mph, I think you are pretty safe up to and including an indicated 82 in a 70 limit. Thoughts?

The times I have tried to go as fast as possible and not get caught, that is precisely what I have done. 77 indicated in 65 zone, 82 indicated in 70 zone, 87 indicated in 75 zone.

[Raza]

Flashing someone is asking for a confrontation, no matter how much they deserve it. I highly recommend not doing that.

It's one of three forms of communication from car to car.  It is by far the least confrontational of them (the other two being honking and hand gestures).  Flashing your high beams is also the accepted way to tell someone that you intend to pass; and 80% of the time, the driver understands that and moves over to let me by without incident. 

[Rupert]

How is creating a traffic jam not creating a danger for everyone else?  When traffic is stuck in a pack, there is significantly less room for maneuverability, it means greater chance of getting into an accident.  Also IMO though observation of traffic behavior, at that rate of  speed, people are also less likely to pay attention to the road than at a higher rate of speed which is more dangerous as well. 

If the said person has not lane camped and drove properly in the lane that does not impede traffic, than the traffic would be significantly more spread out which allows more room for incidents. 

And from what i've seen, those same type of drivers are typically  the ones that creates those skids marks on the concrete dividers in the middle of the freeway and the ones that are involved in single car roll overs iin traffic.   

I still don't understand how crap like that can happen, but apparently, these people are talented enough to do so..

Ya know, I just don't have problems with lane campers on the freeway most of the time I'm in urban areas.

I mean, when I do encounter them, they piss me off, like people on two-lane mountain highways that go 30 mph, etc. But just the fact that they're in the lane they're in or going to speed they're going, does not make them OMG the biggest danger on the road.

[Raza]

Are you familiar with the US phenomenon of road rage?

Flashing your lights at a person, tailgating them, or blocking them in are definitely some of the triggers.


When you encounter a poor driver, the best thing you can do is remain patient and not let it frustrate you. Then find a safe way around him (if he's obstructing your progress), and forget about the incident.

Sure, just sit behind the guy doing 60 in the left lane and hope that the opportunity for a dangerous right hand pass arises.  That's better than communicating intent.  I suppose you also think that you shouldn't honk at anyone ever; just let them hit you if they don't see you...

[Rupert]

It's one of three forms of communication from car to car.  It is by far the least confrontational of them (the other two being honking and hand gestures).  Flashing your high beams is also the accepted way to tell someone that you intend to pass; and 80% of the time, the driver understands that and moves over to let me by without incident.  

AFAIK, in many places, flashing your high beams is illegal.