Updated 2016 Accord

[Laconian]

There hasnt been much out of the box thinking from Honda for quite a while, though. Their cars are good but they aren't the engineer's hero they used to be.

[GoCougs]

With both ever more regulation and extreme competition pushing things to a mean, there won't be any engineering breakouts anytime soon.

[Cookie Monster]

There hasnt been much out of the box thinking from Honda for quite a while, though. Their cars are good but they aren't the engineer's hero they used to be.

The same can be said for their motorcycles, too.

Oh, Honda.

[ifcar]

There hasnt been much out of the box thinking from Honda for quite a while, though. Their cars are good but they aren't the engineer's hero they used to be.

Honda's idea of "outside the box" lately has been trying to invent niches that no one wanted. Let's make a pickup, except less capable! Let's make a midsize crossover, except less roomy! Let's make a hybrid, except less roomy and less fuel-efficient! Ooh, that last one is so good, let's also make a sporty two-seat version!

[Laconian]

The midsize crossover was a real shame for us, because we were receptive to an Accord wagon, and the Crosstour was just oh-so-bad. Technically speaking, I guess we ended up getting one anyway. :P

There's a contingent on the car blogs that's pro-Crosstour/ZDX, but I figure they're a small pack of contrarians, like the "Panther Love" folks.

[12,000 RPM]

There's a contingent on the car blogs that's pro-Crosstour/ZDX, but I figure they're a small pack of contrarians, like the "Panther Love" folks.

Madmen

The NSX and a baby NSX are supposedly on the way.... we will see though. Yea Honda did kind of fall off, but their bread and butter cars are still pretty good.

[ifcar]

The midsize crossover was a real shame for us, because we were receptive to an Accord wagon, and the Crosstour was just oh-so-bad. Technically speaking, I guess we ended up getting one anyway. :P

There's a contingent on the car blogs that's pro-Crosstour/ZDX, but I figure they're a small pack of contrarians, like the "Panther Love" folks.

I'm sure the contingent is focusing on the fact that they're nice to drive, which they are. But they would have still been nice to drive if they hadn't been idiotically shaped to eliminate headroom and cargo room.

[Raza]

The midsize crossover was a real shame for us, because we were receptive to an Accord wagon, and the Crosstour was just oh-so-bad. Technically speaking, I guess we ended up getting one anyway. :P

There's a contingent on the car blogs that's pro-Crosstour/ZDX, but I figure they're a small pack of contrarians, like the "Panther Love" folks.

My gay neighbors had a ZDX until recently.

[MX793]

Honda's idea of "outside the box" lately has been trying to invent niches that no one wanted. Let's make a pickup, except less capable! Let's make a midsize crossover, except less roomy! Let's make a hybrid, except less roomy and less fuel-efficient! Ooh, that last one is so good, let's also make a sporty two-seat version!

Same can be said of some of their recent new motorcycle efforts.

[MX793]

Honda's grown exceptionally conservative of late and really shows no interest in breaking new ground in many respect, save to see how many vehicle variants they can build off of either the Accord or Civic platforms.  No major powertrain breakthroughs since they developed VTEC 25 years ago.  Their hybrid DSG w/ torque converter is somewhat interesting, but we'll see where they go with it.  They have all but abandoned the enthusiast/fun market for the time being.  Remember when Honda made affordable fun cars that were giants in their classes like the CRX, Prelude, and Civic Si?  Where are they now?  No Prelude successor, the CR-Z is an eco-friendly dud, and the Civic Si is an also ran compared to other sport compacts in the segment.  It's basically become what the last Sentra SE-R was about 10 years ago.  And even their hybrid drive system is second-rate compared to most anyone else's.  Hate to say it, but Honda's more of an appliance company than Toyota these days.

[AutobahnSHO]

but Honda's more of an appliance company than Toyota these days.

comfort is a nice thing, but doesn't lead to innovation.

[Cookie Monster]

Same can be said of some of their recent new motorcycle efforts.

Like the Africa Twin.

Let's make a dirtbike that weighs 500 lb but less than 100 hp, and give it an optional autotragic!

[MX793]

Like the Africa Twin.

Let's make a dirtbike that weighs 500 lb but less than 100 hp, and give it an optional autotragic!

Africa Twin isn't that different from something like the Super Tenere.  I was thinking more like the NM4 or DN-01.

[Cookie Monster]

Africa Twin isn't that different from something like the Super Tenere.  I was thinking more like the NM4 or DN-01.

Super Tenere is olde and even heavier. That's not a great bike to compare it to. The Africa Twin is down on power compared to stuff from KTM and BMW. It looks nice though.

Also, you have a point with the DN-01 and especially the NM4. WTF were they thinking with the NM4?!

[MX793]

Super Tenere is olde and even heavier. That's not a great bike to compare it to. The Africa Twin is down on power compared to stuff from KTM and BMW. It looks nice though.

Not really.  The A-Twin sits somewhere between the F800GS Adventure (85 hp, 500 lbs) and the larger R1200GS Adventure (125 hp, 575 lbs).  I'm guessing price will be closer to the F800.  The S1000XR is not really a competitor in this segment (not nearly the off-road capability) even though it's grouped with the "adventure bikes".  V-Strom 1000 is 100 hp and the same weight.  Super Tenere is only 108 hp and a fair bit heavier.  The KTM 1190 Adventure is really the only bike in this segment that completely stomps it in power, followed by the Triumph Tiger Explorer 1200 (135 hp, 570 lbs).  From my days off-road, I'd say that big power is not necessarily a benefit.  Look at the KLR650, which weighs over 400 lbs and makes maybe 40 hp.

[Char]

I love the Accord...wth is this?

[12,000 RPM]

Honda's grown exceptionally conservative of late and really shows no interest in breaking new ground in many respect, save to see how many vehicle variants they can build off of either the Accord or Civic platforms.  No major powertrain breakthroughs since they developed VTEC 25 years ago.  Their hybrid DSG w/ torque converter is somewhat interesting, but we'll see where they go with it.  They have all but abandoned the enthusiast/fun market for the time being.  Remember when Honda made affordable fun cars that were giants in their classes like the CRX, Prelude, and Civic Si?  Where are they now?  No Prelude successor, the CR-Z is an eco-friendly dud, and the Civic Si is an also ran compared to other sport compacts in the segment.  It's basically become what the last Sentra SE-R was about 10 years ago.  And even their hybrid drive system is second-rate compared to most anyone else's.  Hate to say it, but Honda's more of an appliance company than Toyota these days.

As an unashamed fanboi I resemble these remarks.

No powertrain breakthroughs were really necessary. VTEC was way ahead of its time. It would be nice if they went to CVVL and put CVT on exhaust cams, but their engines are still competitive without them.

*Takes deep breath* S2000 was not that good IMO. Maybe on the right road, on the right day, but as a DD it kind of sucked. NSX was their crowning achievement and I'm not crazy about the new one... but they are supposedly committed to a new one and a Cayman sized one in the spirit of the original. They had a silly amount of overlap with their FWD cars... Prelude, Civic Si, Integra, Del Sol.... all of those have been consolidated into the Civic Si, which matches or beats them all in performance, and is not far off from its contemporary competition while having an honest to god mechanical LSD. If more is needed the Accord 6-6 coupe is a rocket, albeit with a serious need for an LSD, suspension, brakes and tires.

Compared to their competitors I am not sure what the gripe is either. Toyota and Nissan's lineups are more boring, aside from the GT-R/Juke. There are no offerings from either to compete with the Civic Si or Accord V6-6. The Civic Si is dynamically superior to the FoST and on the level of the GTI/GLI while being much cheaper. Not much slower either.

[ifcar]

As an unashamed fanboi I resemble these remarks.

No powertrain breakthroughs were really necessary. VTEC was way ahead of its time. It would be nice if they went to CVVL and put CVT on exhaust cams, but their engines are still competitive without them.

*Takes deep breath* S2000 was not that good IMO. Maybe on the right road, on the right day, but as a DD it kind of sucked. NSX was their crowning achievement and I'm not crazy about the new one... but they are supposedly committed to a new one and a Cayman sized one in the spirit of the original. They had a silly amount of overlap with their FWD cars... Prelude, Civic Si, Integra, Del Sol.... all of those have been consolidated into the Civic Si, which matches or beats them all in performance, and is not far off from its contemporary competition while having an honest to god mechanical LSD. If more is needed the Accord 6-6 coupe is a rocket, albeit with a serious need for an LSD, suspension, brakes and tires.

Compared to their competitors I am not sure what the gripe is either. Toyota and Nissan's lineups are more boring, aside from the GT-R/Juke. There are no offerings from either to compete with the Civic Si or Accord V6-6. The Civic Si is dynamically superior to the FoST and on the level of the GTI/GLI while being much cheaper. Not much slower either.

So, the Civic Si is good because it's faster than cars from 20 years ago and isn't too far behind today's competition?

I do think most mainstream Hondas, the Accord in particular, are more fun to drive than the typical competitor. Driving enjoyment isn't necessarily related to innovation, of course, but I'd certainly prefer the former.

[MX793]

VTEC was good, a revelation in '89, but continuous lift and phasing systems like VANOS/Valvetronic (BMW) and Valvematic (Toyota) are superior to a stepped system.  Honda's love for SOHC somewhat limits them with respect to independent continuous control of intake and exhaust.  To their credit, even 25 year old VTEC is ahead of the US domestic automakers, none of which have any sort of variable lift tech in use.  Well, Chrysler may now since they're using some Fiat motors, but that tech didn't come from the Chrysler side.

The Si is far and away slower than other entrants in the class.  Several seconds slower in C&D's Lightning Lap than the latest GTI, FoST, and even the less expensive FiST.  And while it is one of the less expensive entrants in the class, it's not that much less.  Like I said, the car fills the same slot that the Sentra SE-R did 10 years ago.  Not as fast as others in class, but also cheaper.  It's basically left duking it out with the new turbo Hyundai/Kia sporty compacts (and a better option to the Koreans, at least for the time being).

Accord 6/6 is quick in a straight line, and dynamics are decent for a midsize sedan, but it's not going to hang with an actual performance car.  Certainly not an alternative to a sport compact.  MT recently compared the Accord coupe to the EB Mustang and it got trounced in everything but the drag strip.  Though I credit Honda for at least offering it.

[12,000 RPM]

Honda isn't pushing the boundaries because it doesn't really have to.

WRT VTEC/SOHC- Honda's old school engines are generally pretty competitive in performance and fuel economy. Most glaring example of this is their V6. More HP and significantly better performance than 2.0Ts in cars with similar weight and gearing with the same or better performance. Most other Japanese automakers engines are not that much more sophisticated, if at all. Only Toyota using Valvematic is the new Corolla and it's no more powerful or efficient than the 10 year old R18 in the Civic. Only Nissans using VVEL, which is crazy complex, are the Z and VQ powered Infinitis. I think the next gen Accord and Civic engines will be all DOHC too. And Valvetronic lol. It took BMW ~15 years to figure out how to make VVT actuators that don't fail/leak.

I will eat the Civic Si point, its over 0.5s slower to 60 and through the quarter. New GTI is as fast as my old Z Next go round it will get the 2.0T everyone has been asking for, with a mechanical LSD, and the order shall be re-established.

[GoCougs]

VTEC was good, a revelation in '89, but continuous lift and phasing systems like VANOS/Valvetronic (BMW) and Valvematic (Toyota) are superior to a stepped system.  Honda's love for SOHC somewhat limits them with respect to independent continuous control of intake and exhaust.  To their credit, even 25 year old VTEC is ahead of the US domestic automakers, none of which have any sort of variable lift tech in use.  Well, Chrysler may now since they're using some Fiat motors, but that tech didn't come from the Chrysler side.

The Si is far and away slower than other entrants in the class.  Several seconds slower in C&D's Lightning Lap than the latest GTI, FoST, and even the less expensive FiST.  And while it is one of the less expensive entrants in the class, it's not that much less.  Like I said, the car fills the same slot that the Sentra SE-R did 10 years ago.  Not as fast as others in class, but also cheaper.  It's basically left duking it out with the new turbo Hyundai/Kia sporty compacts (and a better option to the Koreans, at least for the time being).

Accord 6/6 is quick in a straight line, and dynamics are decent for a midsize sedan, but it's not going to hang with an actual performance car.  Certainly not an alternative to a sport compact.  MT recently compared the Accord coupe to the EB Mustang and it got trounced in everything but the drag strip.  Though I credit Honda for at least offering it.

FWIW, that wasn't a direct comparo, plus the handling #s for the Accord were from a MY2013 and the MY2016 has received upgrades in that area. It's still no performance car but "trounced" I'd say has to wait.

[GoCougs]

Honda isn't pushing the boundaries because it doesn't really have to.

WRT VTEC/SOHC- Honda's old school engines are generally pretty competitive in performance and fuel economy. Most glaring example of this is their V6. More HP and significantly better performance than 2.0Ts in cars with similar weight and gearing with the same or better performance. Most other Japanese automakers engines are not that much more sophisticated, if at all. Only Toyota using Valvematic is the new Corolla and it's no more powerful or efficient than the 10 year old R18 in the Civic. Only Nissans using VVEL, which is crazy complex, are the Z and VQ powered Infinitis. I think the next gen Accord and Civic engines will be all DOHC too. And Valvetronic lol. It took BMW ~15 years to figure out how to make VVT actuators that don't fail/leak.

I will eat the Civic Si point, its over 0.5s slower to 60 and through the quarter. New GTI is as fast as my old Z Next go round it will get the 2.0T everyone has been asking for, with a mechanical LSD, and the order shall be re-established.

It's totally funny that the ~20-year-old SOHC J Series V6 embarrasses the competition's NEW turbo-4s in all measures, including real-world MPG, and totally hangs with any new N/A V6s, including being tops in NVH.

Imagine what a new N/A DOHC Honda V6 would look like today.

Sadly, I think that Japanese V6 stagnation is a harbinger of effort instead thrown at development of turbo motors. It will be a sad day when the N/A J Series and VQ are not longer available.

[12,000 RPM]

When the J and VQ came out, especially the VQ, they were hail marys. A 20 yr run is probably what they needed to recoup development costs. It's not surprising though. Good design is good design. See: GM pooprod V8s. I think part of it is complacency/laziness but a large part of it is simply if it aint broke dont fix it. All that said the low/midrange grunt of BMW's N54/55 is hard to argue against, esp with its 10-20% better real world gas mileage. But it seems only the Germans are actually able to make good on turbo engine promises.

[Cookie Monster]

IMO the B-series engine is still the best thing that Honda has made. Early K-series (K20A2) were good as well.

[GoCougs]

VQ and J Series are better motors than the N54/55 - despite being ~20 years old they are far simpler, more robust/reliable, less costly, just as efficient or more so (J Series). Imagine what this picture looks like if both V6s were new? You'd see ~350 hp, 10-20% better MPG, and even more refinement.

Things are changing though. Used to be appliance repair was a big thing but no such thing really exists and people held onto their electronic devices for more than two years. Now, things are quick churn and disposable and cars will probably go that way - designed to last the term of financing/lease. We pretty much have seen it with super luxury cars - after ~7-10 years they're worth no more than an Accord (sometimes less). They simply become far too expensive to fix.

[giant_mtb]

Everything is disposable.  It's pretty sad. Every new device or gadget or appliance or car is "more efficient" or better than it was before, so everybody just fuckin throws away perfectly usable items so they can get a new one. Makes no sense...people waste a lot more blindly believing they're somehow helping by throwing everything away and buying new stuff all the time because it's greener than the last model. And people wonder why we're running out of room to put shit.

[MX793]

VQ and J Series are better motors than the N54/55 - despite being ~20 years old they are far simpler, more robust/reliable, less costly, just as efficient or more so (J Series). Imagine what this picture looks like if both V6s were new? You'd see ~350 hp, 10-20% better MPG, and even more refinement.

Things are changing though. Used to be appliance repair was a big thing but no such thing really exists and people held onto their electronic devices for more than two years. Now, things are quick churn and disposable and cars will probably go that way - designed to last the term of financing/lease. We pretty much have seen it with super luxury cars - after ~7-10 years they're worth no more than an Accord (sometimes less). They simply become far too expensive to fix.

Super-lux has never had good resale.  That segment is all about having the latest and greatest.  They are as much status symbols as conveyances.  Nobody wants last year's model, so resale tanks.  Add in the complexity and cost for repairs, and resale falls further since most middle class folks are scared off by the upkeep and repair costs.

[GoCougs]

Everything is disposable.  It's pretty sad. Every new device or gadget or appliance or car is "more efficient" or better than it was before, so everybody just fuckin throws away perfectly usable items so they can get a new one. Makes no sense...people waste a lot more blindly believing they're somehow helping by throwing everything away and buying new stuff all the time because it's greener than the last model. And people wonder why we're running out of room to put shit.

Well, I'm not so sure the disposable nature of retail products is a bad thing really. It enables newer tech to get into peoples' hands quicker and if the devices are designed correctly they will be more recyclable than more durable products. The hitch is people just have to get accustomed to cycling through products quicker.

[GoCougs]

Super-lux has never had good resale.  That segment is all about having the latest and greatest.  They are as much status symbols as conveyances.  Nobody wants last year's model, so resale tanks.  Add in the complexity and cost for repairs, and resale falls further since most middle class folks are scared off by the upkeep and repair costs.

Though not a perfect analogy I would disagree about buying habits of the demographic. For every person all giddy about buying the brand new SL65, there are 1,000 who would gladly buy one used, for the same reasons.

If a 10-year-old CL65 or 760IL had the about the same upkeep and repair costs as a 10-year-old Accord the former would hold their value just dandy IMO (enter the first gen NSX).

[giant_mtb]

Well, I'm not so sure the disposable nature of retail products is a bad thing really. It enables newer tech to get into peoples' hands quicker and if the devices are designed correctly they will be more recyclable than more durable products. The hitch is people just have to get accustomed to cycling through products quicker.

Sure, but recycling uses resources, too.  It takes energy to recycle things.  If I "recycle" my old cell phone, the materials have to be broken down, separated, sorted, and then shipped alllll the way back to China so it can be "recycled" into something new. It's bullshit, IMO.