Audi A4

[giant_mtb]

Dealers sell cars below invoice for two reasons:
1.  They didn't actually pay invoice.
2.  It costs them more to keep the car on the lot than to sell at a loss.

Gotcha.  I'm not sure what the case is here as, like I said, Edmunds is telling me that people (on average, obviously) are paying above invoice but still below MSRP. 

How should I respond to the email he sent me saying he found some the way I'd want them?  He gave me a base MSRP for them.  I was thinking something like "blah blah, hi, hello; Could you give me more details about some of the cars' specific options, as well as price quotes?"  Just keep it simple like that?

[Raza]

LOL. You guys are both really overreacting on this. While I don't think it's really necessary (particularly in a torquey car like the A4, which is where this discussion started), there's nothing wrong with using your handbrake to help you get started on a hill. On the other hand, yes, rollback will wear out your clutch ever so slightly faster, but so does aggressive launches and what not. I definitely wouldn't say that using the handbrake takes less time, and I seriously doubt that, other than the clutch, it cuts down on drive train wear.

I've done the handbrake bit a few times, but I've never found it more helpful than just putting your foot on the brake, letting the clutch out to engagement point and then quickly getting on the throttle.  Maybe I just need more practice on the handbrake thing, but I figure whatever works works, right?

[Raza]

Gotcha.  I'm not sure what the case is here as, like I said, Edmunds is telling me that people (on average, obviously) are paying above invoice but still below MSRP. 

How should I respond to the email he sent me saying he found some the way I'd want them?  He gave me a base MSRP for them.  I was thinking something like "blah blah, hi, hello; Could you give me more details about some of the cars' specific options, as well as price quotes?"  Just keep it simple like that?

Buying a car isn't quite like going to battle, but it helps to think like your enemy.  He's not going to make a sale through an email, so either he thinks MSRP will get you in to negotiate, that MSRP is a good deal, or that you're not serious.  I've always found that crashing the party is the best way to get a good deal.  Walk in like you own the place, make it known that you know what you want and that you know what you're talking about, and show that you're not afraid to walk away. 

[giant_mtb]

Buying a car isn't quite like going to battle, but it helps to think like your enemy.  He's not going to make a sale through an email, so either he thinks MSRP will get you in to negotiate, that MSRP is a good deal, or that you're not serious.  I've always found that crashing the party is the best way to get a good deal.  Walk in like you own the place, make it known that you know what you want and that you know what you're talking about, and show that you're not afraid to walk away. 

Well, I'd sure hope he doesn't think that I'm not serious.  I can't exactly drive to the place when I please, since the dealership's a couple hours away, but there really aren't that many Audi dealers around.  There's one here in Ann Arbor, none in the UP, etc.

[Raza]

That seems absurd. 

When stopped on a limited access highway, I can see that; we're taught the same in PA.  That way, if someone comes up a bit fast and you think they're not going to stop in time, you can move forward.  But on a surface street?  It is absurd. 

[Raza]

Well, I'd sure hope he doesn't think that I'm not serious.  I can't exactly drive to the place when I please, since the dealership's a couple hours away, but there really aren't that many Audi dealers around.  There's one here in Ann Arbor, none in the UP, etc.

Ah, I see; you're geographically isolated.  Next time you email him, try asking what a good time to call is.  Sometimes it's easier to negotiate over the phone. 

He may think you're not serious.  You're young, and I have experience being young and looking at expensive cars.  A phone call might change his mind. 

[Raza]

Yep, plus if you have a trade-in and/or buy accessories those are other ways they can make money off of what would seem to be an upside-down deal for them

That's also true. 

But I must say that I think publicized invoice prices are very suspect. 

[giant_mtb]

Ah, I see; you're geographically isolated.  Next time you email him, try asking what a good time to call is.  Sometimes it's easier to negotiate over the phone. 

He may think you're not serious.  You're young, and I have experience being young and looking at expensive cars.  A phone call might change his mind. 

I wouldn't know where to begin on negotiating a price.  Obviously, I'm not going to pay MSRP, but...

If we negotiate a price now, does that matter, since I won't be picking up the car for a few weeks?

Tell me the rules of the game, y'all.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I dunno, mang. This whole "let's see who's got the biggest penis" contest just isn't for me. Not that I couldn't win one of those if I wanted to, but it's far from the way I like to do business.

The dealership I bought the Rodeo from was great; zero pressure, and were just very helpful nice folks. They had a very fair price to start out with, which required no haggling. The only thing I asked them to do was get me some new lug nuts, and they obliged without question. Stress-free, and a good deal for everyone involved.

The guy I bought the Sonoma from was pretty cool. He was working on a '78 GS750 in his driveway when I drove up - I had a '77, so we just shot the shit for a while, I looked at the truck, drove it around the block and said I'd buy it. He offered to drive the truck home for me, which was cool, and is something I always do for buyers if it's within reason. He dropped the truck off for me, I paid his asking price with no problems, then we shot the shit the whole ride back to his place and everything was cool. He said to call him anytime if I had questions about it - that's something that I do, too. The guy was just like me when it came to being honest, straightforward and helpful, rather than a deceptive sleazeball that is trying to get every penny he can out of an old beater.

I've had some really bad asshole salesmen in the past, and they just don't get my business. Fuck 'em. If I have to go in there acting like they're my enemy, I don't want to be there at all.

[GoCougs]

I wouldn't know where to begin on negotiating a price.  Obviously, I'm not going to pay MSRP, but...

If we negotiate a price now, does that matter, since I won't be picking up the car for a few weeks?

Tell me the rules of the game, y'all.

They won't negotiate until a check is ready to be written and then only with the check writer.

[Raza]

I wouldn't know where to begin on negotiating a price.  Obviously, I'm not going to pay MSRP, but...

If we negotiate a price now, does that matter, since I won't be picking up the car for a few weeks?

Tell me the rules of the game, y'all.

They won't negotiate until a check is ready to be written and then only with the check writer.

That's not always true.  They'll negotiate with whoever has the decision making power, which may or may not always be the check-writer.  But that's a semantic distinction. 

But if you're talking weeks in advance, programs recycle every month, so any numbers you get today won't be good in three or four weeks.  You can talk hypothetically, but they won't play hardball until the check is ready to be written. 

[giant_mtb]

So how should I respond to the e-mail?

[Eye of the Tiger]

So how should I respond to the e-mail?

Show them your e-penis.

[GoCougs]

That's not always true.  They'll negotiate with whoever has the decision making power, which may or may not always be the check-writer.  But that's a semantic distinction. 

But if you're talking weeks in advance, programs recycle every month, so any numbers you get today won't be good in three or four weeks.  You can talk hypothetically, but they won't play hardball until the check is ready to be written. 

Imagine walking into an upscale dealer as a 20-year-old wanting to buy a $35-40k car, saying your grandparents, whom aren't with you, will be writing the check. Exactly 96.5% of salespeople will see a kid looking for a joyride and will react accordingly.

Wouldn't even recommend talking hypothetically as it's more than likely on to serve as a self-agitator plus the MSRP, invoice and factory discounts if any will be known by both parties. I'd just wait till they're with him.

[giant_mtb]

Imagine walking into an upscale dealer as a 20-year-old wanting to buy a $35-40k car, saying your grandparents, whom aren't with you, will be writing the check. Exactly 96.5% of salespeople will see a kid looking for a joyride and will react accordingly.

Wouldn't even recommend talking hypothetically as it's more than likely on to serve as a self-agitator plus the MSRP, invoice and factory discounts if any will be known by both parties. I'd just wait till they're with him.

My dad was with me, and it was never officially discussed who was actually paying for the car.  When he started talking about finance and asked how it was going to be paid for, my dad spoke up and said "cash."  I would assume he got the hint that I certainly wasn't going to be paying for it.

[GoCougs]

So how should I respond to the e-mail?

Well, he's already winning at this point - he's got you asking for what you want, just about has you asking for a price, and he knows you're not paying for the car. At best tell him with exactly what you want and exactly what will be paid.

Would you really be negotiating this deal?

[giant_mtb]

Well, he's already winning at this point - he's got you asking for what you want, just about has you asking for a price, and he knows you're not paying for the car. At best tell him with exactly what you want and exactly what will be paid.

Would you really be negotiating this deal?

Well, I know I'm not going to pay MSRP, if that's what you mean.  I responded and asked him for more details on the cars he found and asked for price quotes.  I told him that since I won't want to go get the car until the end of the month, that I just wanted a general idea of what to expect.  I said I was looking forward to doing business with him, told him e-mail would be the easiest way to contact me as a student, but phone calls are fine, too...etc.

When it comes to writing the check, it will be much more at my dad's discretion, and he's no fool.

[Raza]

Imagine walking into an upscale dealer as a 20-year-old wanting to buy a $35-40k car, saying your grandparents, whom aren't with you, will be writing the check. Exactly 96.5% of salespeople will see a kid looking for a joyride and will react accordingly.

Wouldn't even recommend talking hypothetically as it's more than likely on to serve as a self-agitator plus the MSRP, invoice and factory discounts if any will be known by both parties. I'd just wait till they're with him.

Well, having been a 20 year old looking for a joyride in the past, I can say I was rarely turned down.   

[giant_mtb]

The guy offered to let me drive one within just a few minutes of saying "hi, I'm Chris, this is my dad, and we're here to check out the A4."  I certainly wasn't going to say no.

[565]

Or I'll just get an A4 cause my heart and mind are both in love with it.

Usually I'm all for people going for the car they really want.  But buying a car without testing the other choices isn't going with what your heart really wants, it's going with what you suspect you want, and deciding what you want based on what other people assume your choices should be.

The 30K mark is a great price point.  There are so many car options both new and used there.  I was shopping in that exact price range several years ago.

I was absolutely SURE I wanted an G35 coupe, or S2000.  I felt like those were the only two cars really possible for me.  I did so much research, weighed so many pros and cons and really every other choice was eliminated for such clear and rational reasons.  The EVO and STi were too boy racerish, completely out of the picture.  The Germans were too high maintanence.  The 350Z was just like the G35 but with less seats and worse looks.  The RX8 was just an oddity.  No American cars were even in the picture.  Really it was down to whether I wanted the utility of 2 back seats or the pureness of the S2000.

That's what I thought I wanted before I drove the cars.  Had it been totally up to me, I would have test drove the S2000 and G35 coupe and probably ended up with a G35 coupe (being sensible).  However it was really my first time buying a car for real, and my buddies urged me to test drive everything I could think of for kicks.  I figured it would be a while before I'd have another chance.

It turns out what I thought I liked and what I thought I'd enjoy had absolutely no bearing on what I really liked.  Reading about cars isn't the same as actually driving them.  The car I thought I would love, the G35 coupe, impressed me greatly.  However the raw focus of the EVO was amazing and completely overshadowed the driving experience from the Infiniti.  The S2000 indeed had great handling and a great shifter as promised, but the RX8 had even better steering, even slicker gearbox, and reved with an amazing smoothness that made the S2000 feel harsh and unbearably rough.  I was bouncing of the redline and wondering why the car stopping accelerating.  The 350Z wasn't the same as the G35 coupe as I predicted, but rather had a character all its own.  And despite going into the purchase knowing exactly what I wanted, I came away realizing that it's foolish to decide what you want to drive without driving them.  Though the S2000 started at the top of my list, they quickly fell to the bottom, and the awkward, odd RX8 became the new favorite.  That is until I was trying to get a test drive on an STi and found a used C5 Z06 sitting in the showroom looking menacing and purposeful.  I figured well I'd been so surprised by this whole experience, I'd give it a shot.  I'd never considered an American car.  No one in my family had ever purchased an American car.  However after a blast around in the Z06, most of the others were instantly erased from consideration.  In the end it came down to a choice between the refined RX8 and the raw untamed Z06.  It was a damn hard choice.

The point I'm trying to make is that, when we research cars, we believe that there is one exact class, one exact style, and one exact car that really suits us.  However what really makes a car a good purchase is how it speaks to you and appeals to you during the drive.  No one can predict that with rational decision making.  It's incredible how different cars of the same class and price range can feel.  I think that's why automobiles attract so many enthusiasts.  They may be just congealed collections of metal, plastic, and glass, but they all have such distinct personas and souls.  I thought I wanted the sharp edged precision of the S2000 or the capable nature of the G35, but really I found myself smitten with how the Z06 impatiently rocks with barely suppressed menace at stop lights, and tears through the gears with enough force and violence to make your legs shake.  Had I just driven the G35 and S2000, I would have gone home with the sensible G35.  Had I also driven the EVO, I would have bought the EVO for its divine driving dynamics.  Had I driven just those and the RX8, I would have gone home with the RX8 for its supernatural grace and liquid smoothness.

Who knows maybe if I drove more cars I'd have ended up with something else other than the Z06.  But the idea stands that more cars you test drive, the more chances you'll have of finding that car that really speaks to you.  I'm guessing your grandma doesn't do this car gift more than once for each grandson.  Why not make the very most of this amazing opportunity?  Considering all the responsibilities that come after college, this could be your last chance to pick based solely on how that car connects with you (image, practicality, etc be damned) before you might have to settle down, have a family, or save for graduate schools, etc.

This is the car you will remember for the rest of your life.  When you are 90 and dying you'll still remember the first time your fired her up and went for that first drive.  Why not make it as memorable as possible?

[Eye of the Tiger]

^Good post, 565^

Conclusion: Get a Vette! 

[Rupert]

 

[GoCougs]

Well, I know I'm not going to pay MSRP, if that's what you mean.  I responded and asked him for more details on the cars he found and asked for price quotes.  I told him that since I won't want to go get the car until the end of the month, that I just wanted a general idea of what to expect.  I said I was looking forward to doing business with him, told him e-mail would be the easiest way to contact me as a student, but phone calls are fine, too...etc.

When it comes to writing the check, it will be much more at my dad's discretion, and he's no fool.

And the other aspect in which the sales guy has got you - the largest advantage of all - he knows you really want the car.

I hope everything works out - best of luck.

[giant_mtb]

I'm not moved by BMWs and Mercedes vehicles.

Mustang/Camaro/etc. are impractical.

I will not be able to get a different/new car for a long time.  Practicality must be considered.

I've always been in love with Audis from the outside, and the drive proved to be just as rewarding.

I care just as much about the looks of the car as the drive of the car.  Audis look gorgeous to me, and as an automotive detailer, I would love to have a car that looks this good.

I don't want a used vehicle.  I want to have a brand-new car for the first time in my life.  One that will be mine; one that will have only miles from my foot on the gas pedal.  Who knows if I'll ever have that opportunity again.

It's quick, comfortable, practical, drop-dead gorgeous, and in my price range.  I don't want a BMW 3-series or a Mercedes.  I want the Audi.  I'm going to get one. 

Again; this isn't a "what should I buy" thread.  This is a "I've never bought a new car; help me" thread.  Kthx.

[BimmerM3]

Two lengths when stopped!? 

Yeah I just ignored that because it seemed completely absurd.

[565]

I'm not moved by BMWs and Mercedes vehicles.

Mustang/Camaro/etc. are impractical.

I will not be able to get a different/new car for a long time.  Practicality must be considered.

I've always been in love with Audis from the outside, and the drive proved to be just as rewarding.

I care just as much about the looks of the car as the drive of the car.  Audis look gorgeous to me, and as an automotive detailer, I would love to have a car that looks this good.

I don't want a used vehicle.  I want to have a brand-new car for the first time in my life.  One that will be mine; one that will have only miles from my foot on the gas pedal.  Who knows if I'll ever have that opportunity again.

It's quick, comfortable, practical, drop-dead gorgeous, and in my price range.  I don't want a BMW 3-series or a Mercedes.  I want the Audi.  I'm going to get one. 

Again; this isn't a "what should I buy" thread.  This is a "I've never bought a new car; help me" thread.  Kthx.

Well I tried.

As for getting the lowest price.  Here's what I've found.  Usually after test driving a car, the dealer will try to get you to buy right then right there, before you've had a chance to mull it over or consider other options.  Occasionally I had to go through some negotiations because it was difficult to get test drives at certain dealers (for the EVO specially) unless you act like you are super interested in the car and ready to negotiate for a price. I just give an aggressively low price, act like I'm disatisfied with the price they want and leave.

Almost always a few days later the salesmen will come calling or emailing, practically crawling on his knees with a better offer and more concessions.  If he was so close to a deal that he could taste it, he's not going to let it go.

The most recent example I can think of was when my father was looking at a 2007 G35x.  The dealer basically told him 32 grand was the lowest he could go at the dealership, and it had to be that particular car in the showroom.  My father wanted a different color and a 2008 model and less money.  The dealer said no.  My father walked out.

A week later the salesmen calls up my father with guess what, an offer for a 2008 model with whatever color he wanted for the 31 grand he was asking for.  I guess he was having a slow week and suddenly my father's offer was the best he could do.  By then he'd already bought an Accord.

So my advice would be to go in, negotiate hard and aggressive, make it clear you are serious, but walk away.  Do this for a few local dealers in your area, and wait for them to come crawling back to you.  Then if you can, try to play the dealers off each other with things like.  Well this dealer has this price, can you match it, etc.

[giant_mtb]

Yeah.  There's really only one other Audi dealer I have immediate access to, so it won't be particularly easy, but having one other dealer's offer available as a bargaining chip is better than not having any bargaining chips.

[Minpin]

Yeah I just ignored that because it seemed completely absurd.

Don't believe me? Give Safeway a call. http://www.safewaydriving.com/   713-468-1929   

[BimmerM3]

Imagine walking into an upscale dealer as a 20-year-old wanting to buy a $35-40k car, saying your grandparents, whom aren't with you, will be writing the check. Exactly 96.5% of salespeople will see a kid looking for a joyride and will react accordingly.

That's not the way to do it. I always take the "I'm a foolish, young college student graduating in a couple of months with a good degree and a job already lined up, so I'm getting ready to waste away my paychecks" approach. I've been pretty successful.

[omicron]

At Texas drivers ed they teach us 2 carlengths in between you and the other car when stopped, and they fail you in your final test if you don't do that. I dunno if that makes it law, but it's certainly more than just a dbag move.

Two car-lengths?? Dear me.