Cadillac CT6 Flagship to Make Debut: March 31st 2015 at NYIAS / Latest Caddy Updates

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

For years EVERYONE begging GM to build Caddys like the Germans and now y'all crucify them for it.....

"Nobody CARES about BREMBO BRAKES & RING TIMES when you're STUCK IN TRAFFIC" - some TTAC looney tune

Cadillac doesn't force you into a V Car. If all you care about is luxury/comfort just go with a base model.

[MX793]

If nothing else, I'm impressed by the weight.  ~3700 lbs for a full-size luxury yacht in this day and age is commendable.

[12,000 RPM]

Jag came close... base XJ is ~3900lbs. That is definitely impressive though, ESPECIALLY if those weight savings don't come at the expense of refinement and NVH. Plus that is with the 4 banger. Truthfully I'm not sure it matters though.... someone shopping for an S Class doesn't care about gas mileage or chassis balance/dynamics beyond the realm of comfort where more weight can be beneficial.

[2o6]

What Cadillac needs is an Escalade coupe.


(Seriously. Something akin to the X6 would move mad units)

[12,000 RPM]

Escalade and Corvette should have become their own sub brands... Escalades in S, M, L, XL and ZDX (aping Land Rover's lineup) would have killed it sales wise, and with the prices ATSs & CTS are going for they would probably make more sense and profits as high po Chevys

I feel like those two models have way more brand equity than Cadillac at this point which is sad

[Submariner]

For years EVERYONE begging GM to build Caddys like the Germans and now y'all crucify them for it.....
Cadillac doesn't force you into a V Car. If all you care about is luxury/comfort just go with a base model.

But even the base models put too much focus on that.

"We at Cadillac strived to build a more engaging car than the BMW 3-series and we did!"

Meanwhile, ATS sales are circling the loo, with CTS sales not far behind.

[CaminoRacer]

Escalade and Corvette should have become their own sub brands... Escalades in S, M, L, XL and ZDX (aping Land Rover's lineup) would have killed it sales wise, and with the prices ATSs & CTS are going for they would probably make more sense and profits as high po Chevys

I feel like those two models have way more brand equity than Cadillac at this point which is sad

No. Making small brands like that kills your overall branding. And the Escalade builds Cadillac's image - without it the brand would suffer even more.

[2o6]

No. Making small brands like that kills your overall branding. And the Escalade builds Cadillac's image - without it the brand would suffer even more.

It definitely needs its own expansion. An Escalade coupe would be aces

[Eye of the Tiger]

It definitely needs its own expansion. An Escalade coupe would be aces

It is ridiculous and pointless. But then I look at what certain types of people drive around here, and I see old American coupes with lift kits and giant wheels. So maybe it makes sense.

[CaminoRacer]

It definitely needs its own expansion. An Escalade coupe would be aces

I agree. But keeping it a Cadillac means that Cadillac's image improves and sales of other models might increase.

[12,000 RPM]

No. Making small brands like that kills your overall branding. And the Escalade builds Cadillac's image - without it the brand would suffer even more.

Cadillac deserves to die or get a complete overhaul IMO....

They killed their momentum with the Alpha cars and are going to kill it again with this CTx nonsense. ATS/CTS are both down like 50% YOY and the CT6's segment is dying outside of the benchmark S-Class.

Furthermore they have been super slow on the uptake for luxury SUVs, where growth is, and might have missed the boat completely. XT5 looks bloated and old.

JdN's tenure has been a slow motion car crash. Dude just doesn't get it.

[CaminoRacer]

Cadillac deserves to die or get a complete overhaul IMO....

They killed their momentum with the Alpha cars and are going to kill it again with this CTx nonsense. ATS/CTS are both down like 50% YOY and the CT6's segment is dying outside of the benchmark S-Class.

Furthermore they have been super slow on the uptake for luxury SUVs, where growth is, and might have missed the boat completely. XT5 looks bloated and old.

JdN's tenure has been a slow motion car crash. Dude just doesn't get it.

They've been getting overhauls the past 15 years! GM's biggest problem is TOO MANY overhauls. They never stick to their plan or models for more than a generation. That's why they have crap reputation, since they never let it build up other than the Corvette and Camaro.

[12,000 RPM]

They've been getting overhauls the past 15 years! GM's biggest problem is TOO MANY overhauls. They never stick to their plan or models for more than a generation. That's why they have crap reputation, since they never let it build up other than the Corvette and Camaro.

That is an interesting take. I can agree with that.

Still this last overhaul was a step in the wrong direction IMO. They did have an OK thing going compared to where they are now.

[CaminoRacer]

That is an interesting take. I can agree with that.

Still this last overhaul was a step in the wrong direction IMO. They did have an OK thing going compared to where they are now.

Even just keeping the names the same is fine, consumers don't know/care about platforms. ATS/CTS/XTS is good, then Escalade and a line of crossovers. XTS would need a new platform next gen to make it more luxurious and a better 7/S competitor. ATS and CTS just need better packaging (rear legroom).

I should go be their strategy executive.

[SJ_GTI]

Even just keeping the names the same is fine, consumers don't know/care about platforms. ATS/CTS/XTS is good, then Escalade and a line of crossovers. XTS would need a new platform next gen to make it more luxurious and a better 7/S competitor. ATS and CTS just need better packaging (rear legroom).

I should go be their strategy executive.

For all intents and purposes the CT6 is the "next gen" XTS. The two are both going to be sold for a couple of years, but the XTS is not being replaced. I would expect most XTS sales to go to fleets once the CT6 hits dealer lots.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

But even the base models put too much focus on that.

"We at Cadillac strived to build a more engaging car than the BMW 3-series and we did!"

Meanwhile, ATS sales are circling the loo, with CTS sales not far behind.

But isn't that what EVERYONE wanted for decades? Buick handles the cushy crowd just like EVERYONE wanted and the Caddys should be the MB/BMW/Audi fighters. This is what EVERYONE begged for since the late 80s and now that it's here THE SAME PEOPLE say Cadillac has no vision!?!?!? Catch 22...........

[CaminoRacer]

For all intents and purposes the CT6 is the "next gen" XTS. The two are both going to be sold for a couple of years, but the XTS is not being replaced. I would expect most XTS sales to go to fleets once the CT6 hits dealer lots.

Call the CT6 the next gen XTS and I'd be happy. Switching names and having both on sale is dumb. Much like Infiniti's G37-Q50 fiasco.

[SJ_GTI]

Call the CT6 the next gen XTS and I'd be happy. Switching names and having both on sale is dumb. Much like Infiniti's G37-Q50 fiasco.

Maybe. But these cars are different enough (FWD vs RWD) that I can understand why they are doing it. The XTS was not generally well received so I can understand why GM wants the CT6 out ASAP. I am guessing one of the reasons they want to keep selling the XTS is that it allows them to continue to amortize the cost of the tooling instead of having to immediately write off all that equipment.

It might not work at the end of the day, but I guess I am just not as up in arms about it as you folks.

[GoCougs]

Cadillac's cars are fine if not really good, as is their overall brand strategy. Their primary problem is price point - most luxury buyers will not pay 335i money for an ATS or E Class money for a CTS. This segment is not about performance or luxury or quality or w/e, it's simply about the badge. Cadillac had something with the first gen CTS (price point) but has since lost its way, apparently (naively) thinking one success was enough to start asking BMW/M-B/etc., prices. Just look to Lexus for how its done - it took many years and many successes to build its badge (based on reliability/quality mostly) to the point of asking BMW/M-B prices.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Cadillac's cars are fine if not really good, as is their overall brand strategy. Their primary problem is price point - most luxury buyers will not pay 335i money for an ATS or E Class money for a CTS. This segment is not about performance or luxury or quality or w/e, it's simply about the badge. Cadillac had something with the first gen CTS (price point) but has since lost its way, apparently (naively) thinking one success was enough to start asking BMW/M-B/etc., prices. Just look to Lexus for how its done - it took many years and many successes to build its badge (based on reliability/quality mostly) to the point of asking BMW/M-B prices.

And it was the perfect SIZE (Last Gen CTS) for the price!

[GoCougs]

Maybe. But these cars are different enough (FWD vs RWD) that I can understand why they are doing it. The XTS was not generally well received so I can understand why GM wants the CT6 out ASAP. I am guessing one of the reasons they want to keep selling the XTS is that it allows them to continue to amortize the cost of the tooling instead of having to immediately write off all that equipment.

It might not work at the end of the day, but I guess I am just not as up in arms about it as you folks.

XTS was moderately well received, and was really the only thing that can be considered a success for Cadillac the last number of years. Looking at sales for 2015 (~23,000 units) it about equaled the Lexus GS, Audi A6, and outsold the CTS.

[SJ_GTI]

XTS was moderately well received, and was really the only thing that can be considered a success for Cadillac the last number of years. Looking at sales for 2015 (~23,000 units) it about equaled the Lexus GS, Audi A6, and outsold the CTS.

Interesting, guess it makes sense they are keeping it around for now.

[12,000 RPM]

But isn't that what EVERYONE wanted for decades? Buick handles the cushy crowd just like EVERYONE wanted and the Caddys should be the MB/BMW/Audi fighters. This is what EVERYONE begged for since the late 80s and now that it's here THE SAME PEOPLE say Cadillac has no vision!?!?!? Catch 22...........

No, only kids on the internet and car reviewers who don't even buy cars were complaining about this. Through all of GMs trials and tribulations Buick has always done well because its comfy rides appeal to normal people who buy cars. This is also why the Lexus ES is a top seller... C&D and the like hate it, but 99% of people who buy luxury cars don't even know what C&D is, let alone use the opinions from it to drive car purchases.

Just look to Lexus for how its done - it took many years and many successes to build its badge (based on reliability/quality mostly) to the point of asking BMW/M-B prices.

And even with a quasi legit badge, class leading dynamics and reliability and established marques, Lexus' "German fighters" only sell fractions of what the actual German entries do. The FWD platform based models do the heavy lifting- NX, RX and ES account for well over half Lexus volume and a big chunk of their recent growth. Without them they would be in the volume doldrums with Jaguar & the non Escalade Cadillacs.

If the goal is to have a model lineup that impresses the internet and auto journal world Caddy should def double down on RWD sedans and sports cars and hoverboards. But if they want to be profitable and have volume, they should "do battle" with Lexus, not the Germans...

[GoCougs]

And even with a quasi legit badge, class leading dynamics and reliability and established marques, Lexus' "German fighters" only sell fractions of what the actual German entries do. The FWD platform based models do the heavy lifting- NX, RX and ES account for well over half Lexus volume and a big chunk of their recent growth. Without them they would be in the volume doldrums with Jaguar & the non Escalade Cadillacs.

If the goal is to have a model lineup that impresses the internet and auto journal world Caddy should def double down on RWD sedans and sports cars and hoverboards. But if they want to be profitable and have volume, they should "do battle" with Lexus, not the Germans...

Fractions? Did you look at the charts in the link I provided? For example out of the ~2 dozen cars listed in the each of the charts the IS and GS play second fiddle only to the MB and BMW cars, and remember for MY2015, those brands have significantly more options - turbo 4, diesel, lift back, hi-po V6 or V8, hyper performance versions, etc.

[12,000 RPM]

Fractions? Did you look at the charts in the link I provided? For example out of the ~2 dozen cars listed in the each of the charts the IS and GS play second fiddle only to the MB and BMW cars, and remember for MY2015, those brands have significantly more options - turbo 4, diesel, lift back, hi-po V6 or V8, hyper performance versions, etc.

0<x<1 = fraction, and yea they are still handily outsold by the lowly ES and the Germans. The bizarro variants are not really a big slice; for example the C-Class only model that doesn't line up with the IS is the C63, and I doubt many C classes are C63s. 4 series is broken out from the 3 and nobody buys the GT....

[GoCougs]

Got it. So now that we're on the same page that Lexus has been successful, Caddy's path is gonna have to mirror Lexus's path. Start with a hit, but gotta keep the hits coming, with some sort of angle that the competition isn't utilizing (for Caddy, best bet is probably lower price point).

But this begs the question, Does Cadillac care it sells less CTS because of the move up market? Maybe that was the plan? The ATS and new CTS together sell about the same as the old CTS, but by my figuring, the average MSRP of ATS+CTS sales today is higher than CTS-only sales of yesteryear (i.e., total revenue, or potential for it, looks to be higher) plus Cadillac now has presence in two distinct classes rather than one...

[12,000 RPM]

But the ATS + CTS aren't selling anywhere near the % of MSRP the Germans are, and JdN has explicitly said in the past Cadillac is done selling on price. They gambled on the "fight the Germans" card and lost big time. Not to mention ATS + CTS sales are down every year since these new ones came out in segments that are either holding steady or growing. So Caddy lost market share with a brand new platform in a growingish market. They got high on their own farts and listened to the Internet too much- actually, JdN made a personal reply to TTAC's loudest Cadillac detractor on video. So their leadership is completely fucked.

Now they have 3 cars fighting for the ~$50-60K buyer, but brand equity that really only commands $40-50K at best. I still think dolled up PHEV Malibus and Impalas with stretched noses for that "RWD look" would have been better than the Alpha platform. Alpha platform was a mistake. Pure hubris.

[SVT666]

But the ATS + CTS aren't selling anywhere near the % of MSRP the Germans are, and JdN has explicitly said in the past Cadillac is done selling on price. They gambled on the "fight the Germans" card and lost big time. Not to mention ATS + CTS sales are down every year since these new ones came out in segments that are either holding steady or growing. So Caddy lost market share with a brand new platform in a growingish market. They got high on their own farts and listened to the Internet too much- actually, JdN made a personal reply to TTAC's loudest Cadillac detractor on video. So their leadership is completely fucked.

Now they have 3 cars fighting for the ~$50-60K buyer, but brand equity that really only commands $40-50K at best. I still think dolled up PHEV Malibus and Impalas with stretched noses for that "RWD look" would have been better than the Alpha platform. Alpha platform was a mistake. Pure hubris.

So they should do what you always give Lincoln shit for doing?

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

So they should do what you always give Lincoln shit for doing?

[12,000 RPM]

Lincoln's cars aren't great, but then they don't have to be. Warmed over Fords are low risk, low cost, high profit endeavors. And heres the funniest part. You scoff at Lincolns, but on average a new MKZ is trading hands at a higher price than an ATS. It's also generally selling above invoice, while the ATS is selling at about $1500 under. And as of 2014 the MKZ is outselling the ATS too, at least in the US. So how can Lincoln be "garbage" when people are willing to pay more for a Ford Fusion XLE V6 than a Nurburgring tuned new from the ground up ATS? MKZ has higher content value, a bigger back seat, and for the money better performance. If you don't care about dynamics, and most people don't, what is the case for buying an ATS over an MKZ? An MKZ!!!!!

I know it hurts to hear because the ATS is a car for "us". It's a car we are supposed to like. It's a good car, and on the strength of where Caddy was 20 years ago it deserves to win. But you guys are missing the bigger picture, just as GM did. GM is in the business of selling cars, not appeasing internet enthusiasts. And as good as the ATS/CTS are, they are not good in the ways that matter to luxury buyers. Even the people buying them are taking them at steep, steep, steep discounts. The fact that the MKZ is outselling it more profitably at higher transaction prices speaks to what I've been saying all along- people want style, content, room and adequate performance.... not whatever the fuck Cadillac is trying to do.

While Caddy has been cannibalizing itself in the $50-60K range, Lincoln came out with the MKC.... a $35-50K Ford Escape. MKC outsold the CTS and is within 2K of the ATS in the US. Factoring in:

- the $1B development cost of the Alpha platform
- the fact that the MKC's segment is up 39% from 2015 vs 2014, vs 8% up for the ATS segment and 15% down for the CTS segment
- the fact that there are like 1/2-3/4 the number of entrants in the MKC's segment vs the ATS/CTS
- the CT6's segment has been in a ~15 year decline in volume
- the only people who care about "fighting the Germans" are Johan de Nysschen and non-luxury buyers on the Internet
- the ES & RX pretty much outsell every luxury car that isn't a 3 series or C Class

can u honestly sit here and say with a straight face and tell me GM's developing of not 1, but TWO limited use RWD platforms was a smarter, more profitable idea than leveraging the FWD platforms and PHEV tech they already had?

Have u seen the commercial for the Malibu where they took the badges off and people thought it was a $50-70K luxury car? The average consumer doesn't know jack shit but how expensive a car feels..... as Audi and Lexus show, drive wheels and chassis balance are irrelevant for making and profitably selling luxury cars.

No, my view on Cadillac and Lincoln are abundantly clear.... u took a huge fail on this one. But not as big as GM

Lincoln is doing well, and even if they fail their gamble is small. Omega platform will be the third unnecessary RWD platform GM has developed in the last decade (Alpha, Omega and whatever the Solstice was on). They will NEVER recoup the billions WE PAID for them to make these terrible decisions.