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I've been clogging up the Chat Thread with my SUV search and I figured it's about time it gets its own thread.

The situation: I like to hike and I'm planning on moving to Colorado this summer. The S2000 is not particularly great at driving on forest roads or in the snow, so I'm gonna get an SUV. Don't worry, I'm keeping the S2k too. :wub::wub::wub:

So I basically need something that can get me to trailheads and through Colorado winters. It will also be used for some road trips and store runs. 

There's no particular rush since I'm not moving for another few months, but I sooner would be nice just so I don't need to rely on others to get to hiking trails so much.

Requirements:
-4WD/AWD
-Manual transmission (Yes, I'm going to be a stickler about this. Yes, I know it's silly. Okay, you guys are convincing. For the sake of being thorough, you may suggest automatics though I reserve the right to complete ignore your suggestions.)
-Under $13,000
-Under 150,000 miles
-Some amount of extra ground clearance

Preferences:
-Closer to (or under!) $10,000
-Closer to (or under!) 100,000 miles
-Long distance comfort
-Most usable cargo room

Obviously, as always, better long term reliability and lower cost of ownership are huge factors.

Potentials:
-2009-2013 Subaru Forester X 5MT - test drove one on Friday (http://tinyurl.com/nrym6ep (http://tinyurl.com/nrym6ep)). It was a pretty nice car. A bit on the slow side (granted, I'm used to the S2k), but otherwise seems like it would fit my needs perfectly. No idea how hard they are to find in manual, so I'm not sure if I should go ahead and consider buying the one in my area. I'll probably talk to the sales guy this week to see how flexible they are on price.
-2003-2008 Subaru Forester XT or XS 5MT - Pretty quick in XT form, handles better than most SUVs. Taller cargo space than the Outback (which is a plus). Difficult to find.
-2003-2009 Subaru Outback XT or XS 5MT - Similar to Forester except less usable cargo space for bigger things. Slightly easier to find, but still difficult.
-Honda Element 4X4 5MT - Not really good enough off road for Rocky Mountains
-pre-2002 Toyota 4Runner 5MT - Looks like they stopped making the manuals in 2002, so I'd have to go pretty old. Keeping them in the search just in case a cheap, lowish mileage one pops up, but not expecting anything.
-2000 Jeep Cherokee 5MT - Drove one yesterday (http://tinyurl.com/nqhwf32 (http://tinyurl.com/nqhwf32)). Not particularly impressed. Smaller than I was expecting, the shifter was incredibly vague, and the steering had a lot of play. I did like the engine and the ride pretty well though - went over some railroad tracks and it handled them like a champ. I've pretty much ruled them out unless I find a really cheap example.
-2002-2009 Toyota 4Runner - AT only. More expensive and/or higher mileage.
-Nissan Xterra - apparently there was some sort of overheating issue with the ATs in the 2005-2010 models. Nissan has to cover the issue if it happens, but you still wouldn't want it to happen in the middle of the wilderness. A little cheaper and/or lower mileage than most of the other choices.
-Ford Explorer AT - never really been a huge fan but I suppose Rupert is right that they're pretty capable. Probably the easiest to find around here. The newer ones are huge though.
-Jeep Liberty - Probably not because they're pretty small, but maybe.
-Toyota FJ Cruiser - Probably out of my price range, but maybe.

Anything I could I'm missing? Anything I should watch out for?

"Requiring" a manual transmission is an unnecessary restriction IMO. Not only does it add nothing to the SUV driving experience (and can actually detract) there are hardly any available.

Bump up your price point to ~$15-20k and get a previous gen 4Runner with V6. A quick look on Auto Trader shows near countless numbers of of 2006 - 2009 4Runners at $16k - $20k (which means you should be able to easily negotiate to ~$15k) with less than 100,00 miles:

2007 SR5 with V6 and 77,500 miles @ $16,900
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389969383&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389969383&Log=0)

2008 SR5 with V6 and 78,000 miles @ $16,900
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389361654&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389361654&Log=0)

2008 SR5 with V6 and 68,000 miles @ $18,000
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=367178203&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=367178203&Log=0)

WRX hatch?

I would try a 2.0XT Forester. No manual trans, but more power and you won't see a power loss at altitude.

I'll add I drive the G37X on lots of gravel roads and I have no issues with ground clearance. Sure I can't fly down them as if in an SUV or truck but I do just fine. I put snow tires on in the winter and that works well too.

If you won't get off the beaten path a (true) SUV is probably gonna be overkill.

The first generation Audi allroad (up to 2005) was available with a manual with the 2.7 turbo  V6. It has differential locks, and a transfer case. Might be a Bit older then you would be comfortable in going with though.

Cherokee's truck-grade manual transmission sucked, color me unsurprised. :lol:

Quote from: GoCougs on February 08, 2015, 12:15:54 PM
"Requiring" a manual transmission is an unnecessary restriction IMO.

Spoken by the master of unnecessary restrictions.

Outback's seats are more comfortable than the Forester's.

Mike, how were the seats in the Element?

Quote from: Galaxy on February 08, 2015, 12:29:19 PM
The first generation Audi allroad (up to 2005) was available with a manual with the 2.7 turbo  V6. It has differential locks, and a transfer case. Might be a Bit older then you would be comfortable in going with though.

Shoving money up his ass would be more pleasant than owning an Allroad

Quote from: GoCougs on February 08, 2015, 12:15:54 PM
"Requiring" a manual transmission is an unnecessary restriction IMO. Not only does it add nothing to the SUV driving experience (and can actually detract) there are hardly any available.

Bump up your price point to ~$15-20k and get a previous gen 4Runner with V6. A quick look on Auto Trader shows near countless numbers of of 2006 - 2009 4Runners at $16k - $20k (which means you should be able to easily negotiate to ~$15k) with less than 100,00 miles:

2007 SR5 with V6 and 77,500 miles @ $16,900
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389969383&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389969383&Log=0)

2008 SR5 with V6 and 78,000 miles @ $16,900
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389361654&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=389361654&Log=0)

2008 SR5 with V6 and 68,000 miles @ $18,000
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=367178203&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2007&makeCode1=TOYOTA&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=387308017&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=367178203&Log=0)

Sure, I'll PM you my address so you can mail me the check for the extra $4k.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 08, 2015, 12:20:18 PM
WRX hatch?

Too small, I'd prefer more ground clearance, I don't trust that they weren't abused, not actually all that better than the S2k on a road trip. 

If I were getting rid of the S2k and looking for a single car to replace it, they'd be right at the top of my list, but the sportiness isn't really necessary when I have the S2k.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 08, 2015, 12:28:29 PM
I'll add I drive the G37X on lots of gravel roads and I have no issues with ground clearance. Sure I can't fly down them as if in an SUV or truck but I do just fine. I put snow tires on in the winter and that works well too.

If you won't get off the beaten path a (true) SUV is probably gonna be overkill.

I'm pretty adamant about wanting a bit of extra ground clearance. Some trailheads are down pretty long gravel roads. I don't want to be put-putting down them for hours on end trying to avoid all the potholes.

Quote from: Galaxy on February 08, 2015, 12:29:19 PM
The first generation Audi allroad (up to 2005) was available with a manual with the 2.7 turbo  V6. It has differential locks, and a transfer case. Might be a Bit older then you would be comfortable in going with though.

Thought about it, but I'm worried about the maintenance costs for an older, high-mileage Audi.

Quote from: hotrodalex on February 08, 2015, 12:23:48 PM
I would try a 2.0XT Forester. No manual trans, but more power and you won't see a power loss at altitude.

They're like 2x my budget?

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 08, 2015, 12:59:22 PM
Sure, I'll PM you my address so you can mail me the check for the extra $4k.

I'd bet a nice sum that a lightly/moderately used ~$15k 4Runner is gonna cost less overall (i.e., to own, esp. depreciation) than pretty much any equivalently-capable $10k/100,000+ vehicle you've mentioned thus far save for maybe the Element.

Quote from: 68_427 on February 08, 2015, 12:38:29 PM
Shoving money up his ass would be more pleasant than owning an Allroad

(http://www.veodin.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Word-Keyboard-Shortcuts.png)

Quote from: GoCougs on February 08, 2015, 12:28:29 PM
I'll add I drive the G37X on lots of gravel roads and I have no issues with ground clearance. Sure I can't fly down them as if in an SUV or truck but I do just fine. I put snow tires on in the winter and that works well too.

If you won't get off the beaten path a (true) SUV is probably gonna be overkill.

Forest roads in Washington and Oregon are tame compared to the Rocky Mountains. Timber money built them very well in that region, and even with low maintenance they hold up. Less timber money in the Rocky Mountains = lower quality = more deterioration with less maintenance. In my vast experience, a sedan will get you to 90%+ of the trailheads in Oregon and Washington (especially within a few hours of Seattle or Portland), but only 50% of the trailheads in the Rocky Mountains.

In other words, I agree with his need for more clearance and 4WD.

I also think the manual transmission requirement is silly, given that you have the S2k, and especially if your get a modern 5-speed auto. My Explorer is a manual, and I wish it wasn't. Harder to drive off-pavement, not exactly a quick-shifting snick snick box, etc. But, if you're determined to find a stick...

I actually don't know which SUVs do and don't have a stick, so general advice. Yes, clearance is important. More so than 4WD, but I would still be looking for something with either legit 4WD or good AWD (Subaru, pretty much). I don't think you need a hardcore off-roader like the old Cherokee or Wrangler. IRS and no low range should be fine with a little driving care now and then. I would suggest good tires, AT tread and LT type at least, Load Range E preferred (more plies). If you have to buy different wheels to do that, you should. Might also consider skid plates if it's a Subaru. In addition to cargo space, you might also consider sleeping space (fold flat rear seats and enough length).

From that list, I would go with a Forester or 4Runner. You might also consider an Explorer, though manuals are extremely rare in the four-door models and they're old. If you're not dead-set on an SUV, it's not too hard to find Tacomas with manual tranmissions. You could put a cap on the back. If you decide that you don't need a manual after all, the 2003 (2001?) to ? ( :huh: ) Explorer is a great rig. I wouldn't look at any cute utes outside the Forester/Outback.

Don't listen to Rupert and Cougs! I love the manual on my 4Runner. It makes it so much more enjoyable to drive, even with the long throws and notchy shifter. It's surprisingly not vague for being a truck transmission, though.

Honestly your best bet IMO is the 3rd gen 4Runner. Yes, they're older but they're also so damn reliable. I still see tons of 3rd gens and a couple 2nd gens (like mine) running around. IMO the 2nd gen is nicer than the 3rd gen 4Runner (3rd gens got too late-'90's funky for me) but they're still excellent vehicles.

Rendezvous.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 08, 2015, 02:48:56 PM
Don't listen to Rupert and Cougs! I love the manual on my 4Runner. It makes it so much more enjoyable to drive, even with the long throws and notchy shifter. It's surprisingly not vague for being a truck transmission, though.

Honestly your best bet IMO is the 3rd gen 4Runner. Yes, they're older but they're also so damn reliable. I still see tons of 3rd gens and a couple 2nd gens (like mine) running around. IMO the 2nd gen is nicer than the 3rd gen 4Runner (3rd gens got too late-'90's funky for me) but they're still excellent vehicles.

But you've never driven your 4Runner in the places he's buying this vehicle to go, so how would you know?. ;) Further, any old car, even and especially an old "super reliable" Toyota (i.e. it's hasn't been well-maintained), is going to have more issues than a newer lower mileage car. Plus of course the silly Toyota premium you pay.

However, 4Runners are good trucks, so I can't argue too much.

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 08, 2015, 03:04:29 PM
Rendezvous.

Aztec.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 08, 2015, 02:48:56 PM
Don't listen to Rupert and Cougs! I love the manual on my 4Runner. It makes it so much more enjoyable to drive, even with the long throws and notchy shifter. It's surprisingly not vague for being a truck transmission, though.

Honestly your best bet IMO is the 3rd gen 4Runner. Yes, they're older but they're also so damn reliable. I still see tons of 3rd gens and a couple 2nd gens (like mine) running around. IMO the 2nd gen is nicer than the 3rd gen 4Runner (3rd gens got too late-'90's funky for me) but they're still excellent vehicles.

No offense of course but a 4th gen (2003 - 2009) 4Runner is gonna be 100x better vehicle than any 4Runner generation before it, MT or otherwise. Sure no MT but the 4th gen has SO much more hp (70-100 hp, depending) and is so much quicker it's really a non issue. Plus, most notably, 4th gen V6 uses a timing chain.

Quote from: Rupert on February 08, 2015, 03:08:14 PM
But you've never driven your 4Runner in the places he's buying this vehicle to go, so how would you know?. ;) Further, any old car, even and especially an old "super reliable" Toyota (i.e. it's hasn't been well-maintained), is going to have more issues than a newer lower mileage car. Plus of course the silly Toyota premium you pay.

However, 4Runners are good trucks, so I can't argue too much.

Are the forest service roads really that bad out there? I plan on being out in the mountains hiking a lot - it's most of the reason I'm moving out there. I know that automatics are generally considered better for proper off-roading, but I figured forest service roads would be alright. The fact that the Forester is smaller and drives more like a car is what attracts me to it compared to a 4Runner or Explorer, but I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a car that really has to be pushed to do what I want it to do on a regular basis.

If I went with the Forester, do you think the NA motor would be powerful enough, even at higher altitude? Or should I really limit myself to the XTs? And it sounds like the Element is pretty much out for the Rocky Mountain area, would you agree? It also doesn't look like there are any all terrain tires on Tire Rack for Foresters, at least in the stock tire size.

One option would be to wait until after I move out there. My dad has an Outback (2008 LL Bean, IIRC) as his second car that he rarely uses in the summer, so I could take it up for some hikes, see how it does, and make a decision from there. There's probably a greater availability out there too. The downside is that I'll have to continue to rely on other people to drive to trails in the meantime, or limit myself to trails that I know will have paved roads. 

One thing to keep in mind if you stick to the Element idea is that it has pretty low ground clearance -- I think it was the gas tank that was pushed low to make more interior room.

Are you looking at Nissan Xterras? They seem to be somewhat common with a stick, and are of course capable off-road.

And lastly, are you considering four-door pickups in addition to SUVs?

Quote from: ifcar on February 08, 2015, 04:25:59 PM
Are you looking at Nissan Xterras? They seem to be somewhat common with a stick, and are of course capable off-road.

I hadn't really, but that might be something to look into. They seem cheaper/lower mileage than the other cars I'm looking at. Any known problems with them?

Don't fret too much about the altitude- everyone else's cars suffer the same so you don't notice it all that much.

Otherwise I think you're on the right track, unless you go full-blown SUV or Jeep the Subies are the best. (Element is really not an off-road vehicle.)

Quote from: ifcar on February 08, 2015, 04:25:59 PM
And lastly, are you considering four-door pickups in addition to SUVs?

Not really. I'd like to get a dog in a year or two, and I wouldn't want to make a dog ride around in a truck bed in the winter, even with a cover. And I don't really want dog hair in my back seat.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 08, 2015, 04:38:28 PM
Not really. I'd like to get a dog in a year or two, and I wouldn't want to make a dog ride around in a truck bed in the winter, even with a cover. And I don't really want dog hair in my back seat.

Dog rides in front seat, dude. With the top down. Dogs love convertibles.

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 08, 2015, 04:40:43 PM
Dog rides in front seat, dude. With the top down. Dogs love convertibles.

So much hair though.

My neighbor is on his second current gen xterra manual.  He's never had any issues.  It isn't very refined and drives like a truck but that's what its meant for so...

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 08, 2015, 04:13:15 PM
Are the forest service roads really that bad out there? I plan on being out in the mountains hiking a lot - it's most of the reason I'm moving out there. I know that automatics are generally considered better for proper off-roading, but I figured forest service roads would be alright. The fact that the Forester is smaller and drives more like a car is what attracts me to it compared to a 4Runner or Explorer, but I don't want to spend a bunch of money on a car that really has to be pushed to do what I want it to do on a regular basis.

If I went with the Forester, do you think the NA motor would be powerful enough, even at higher altitude? Or should I really limit myself to the XTs? And it sounds like the Element is pretty much out for the Rocky Mountain area, would you agree? It also doesn't look like there are any all terrain tires on Tire Rack for Foresters, at least in the stock tire size.

One option would be to wait until after I move out there. My dad has an Outback (2008 LL Bean, IIRC) as his second car that he rarely uses in the summer, so I could take it up for some hikes, see how it does, and make a decision from there. There's probably a greater availability out there too. The downside is that I'll have to continue to rely on other people to drive to trails in the meantime, or limit myself to trails that I know will have paved roads.

I'm not familiar with CO, but I am with UT and ID. The roads aren't great, so if you're buying something for the express purpose of hiking, I would definitely go for not-a-car. I think the Forester would do it in terms of clearance. You're probably not going to need to do any serious off-roading to get places, and even if you do, some finesse with get you there with a manual. The only thing you might think about is the Forester doesn't have a low range, so if you're in a tricky spot, you might have some trouble. However, these are trailheads, not off-road tracks, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I would not worry about the altitude, but power is a preference. Personally, I don't care about it in a car like this. You won't have trouble with not being able to get up stuff if that's what you're worried about. As for tires, yeah, with the Forester, I think you have to get 16" wheels and then get tires to fit. Kind of silly, but entirely worth it. I would say the Element is pretty much out, yeah.

XTerra is a pretty good idea. They're big, though. If money were no object to me, it's probably what I would get (assuming I could sleep in the back :lol: ).

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 08, 2015, 04:43:17 PM
So much hair though.

It will blow out with the wind. Also brush your dog and get swiffer cloths.

Old old Subies had ridiculously low 1st gear. Dunno about newer. :huh:

Quote from: Rupert on February 08, 2015, 04:48:42 PM
XTerra is a pretty good idea. They're big, though. If money were no object to me, it's probably what I would get (assuming I could sleep in the back :lol: ).

What about the 1st gen? They're smaller. There are a few around that are cheap and still have fairly low miles. Maybe less sleepable though.

You're making me think that it might not be a bad idea to have something that is a bit more off-road capable. You know. Just in case. :lol:

You should do a little more research into the area you'll be in in particular. It's possible that the roads in the Denver area are OK because of all the people. In Boise, a Forester would do it for 90% of the trailheads.

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 08, 2015, 06:25:49 PM
Old old Subies had ridiculously low 1st gear. Dunno about newer. :huh:

Not since at least the early '90s.. Some (all?) early Subarus even had a 2-speed transfer case.

(http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2006-bmw-x3-series-3-0i_100031536_m.jpg)


(http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/2005_honda_cr_v_se_100008114_l.jpg)


Real time 4WD isn't bad, but the diff doesn't get much power and it only works under acceleration.


I'm very surprised no one has said the Toyota FJ.

(http://image.automobilemag.com/f/62587330+q100+re0/2014-toyota-fj-cruiser-ultimate-edition-front-three-quarters-3.jpg)

FJ is a good idea, the others aren't enough, IMO.

LOL at trying to get an FJ for $13k. Those things don't depreciate.

Rare as shit in Manual, but

(http://www.netcarshow.com/Jeep-Liberty-2008-wallpaper.jpg)


Not sure if the Manual was 2WD only tho

(http://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/dodge/nitro/2011/oem/2011_dodge_nitro_4dr-suv_heat_fq_oem_1_500.jpg)


Also

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/2007_Hummer_H3_--_NHTSA.jpg)

Quote from: Rupert on February 08, 2015, 07:23:00 PM
FJ is a good idea, the others aren't enough, IMO.

The X3 isn't as good as a Forester off road? There is no such thing as a 2WD X3

Liberty was a good rig, don't buy a Hummer, though, geez.

Quote from: 2o6 on February 08, 2015, 07:26:11 PM
The X3 isn't as good as a Forester off road? There is no such thing as a 2WD X3

BMW AWD isn't good enough, IIRC. I think the only AWD system that you can really call an off road system is Subaru's system(s).

For what I think his need is, my guess is something like the CRV or X3 would minimally work. But since he's buying an SUV for the specific purpose of getting up what I'm pretty sure are rough roads to trailheads, it seems silly to not get something that will be good at it as opposed to minimally acceptable at it. The Forester's size, overhangs, and AWD system make up for not having a low range or really great clearance, IMO.

There's nothing wrong with the H3. It's cool looking and a lot of it's running gear comes from the Colorado and Trailblazer.

Quote from: 2o6 on February 08, 2015, 07:52:00 PM
There's nothing wrong with the H3. It's cool looking and a lot of it's running gear comes from the Colorado and Trailblazer.

Except it has that god awful I5 and next to no visibility.

No X3 - I don't want to deal with BMW maintenance bills.

No H3 just because I don't want to own a Hummer.

Maybe an FJ but probably too expensive.

I don't know much about Liberties. I thought they were supposed to be pretty soft, no? If I'm gonna consider giving up the manual transmission, I'd want it to be for something that's pretty capable.

Liberties were soft compared to the Cherokee, which was what gave them that reputation, but still a big step above a crossover. I'd run a search for the FJ earlier but the only one in the price range had 176k miles.

I wouldn't recommend a Nitro, either. Chrysler tried to turn the Liberty into a crossover and ended up with just a truck with less ability.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 08, 2015, 07:24:01 PM
LOL at trying to get an FJ for $13k. Those things don't depreciate.

Yup, I was gonna say FJ but looked at prices and ruled it out fast

This wouldn't be so bad.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&makeCode1=TOYOTA&startYear=1981&maxMileage=150000&numRecords=100&searchRadius=500&listingId=392694423&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&makeCode1=TOYOTA&startYear=1981&maxMileage=150000&numRecords=100&searchRadius=500&listingId=392694423&Log=0)


This one is in my area, though I'd rather have the V6 for the slightly better fuel economy.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&makeCode1=TOYOTA&startYear=1981&maxMileage=150000&numRecords=100&searchRadius=500&listingId=392364516&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&makeCode1=TOYOTA&startYear=1981&maxMileage=150000&numRecords=100&searchRadius=500&listingId=392364516&Log=0)

A liberty or Xterra are good bets although they aren't the most comfortable. The former can be had with a turbodiesel, which might be nice in the rockies and the elevation.

Wranglers hold their value way too much to even think about anything in your price range.

It is worth mentioning a Grand Cherokee, for your target price a 2005-2007 with reasonable miles can be had (even a V8 model). The drive system (with V8 models) will probably be better than all others mentioned and it will be comfortable and not lethargic like the others. One would expect it to more than handle the trailheads.

Quote from: SVT32V on February 08, 2015, 10:21:02 PM
It is worth mentioning a Grand Cherokee, for your target price a 2005-2007 with reasonable miles can be had (even a V8 model). The drive system (with V8 models) will probably be better than all others mentioned and it will be comfortable and not lethargic like the others.

Did they finally sort out the transmission by the third generation? My parents had 1993, 1994, and 2001 Grand Cherokees, and they all had transmission issues before 100,000 miles. That's a lot of the reason I'm so averse to automatics in general.

A lift and skidplates is only a few hundred $.  It won't be as extreme as below but it can be.


(http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/attachments/f102/39824d1347616449-want-lift-forester-need-advice-lifted-forester_9.jpg)


This one is fairly average prolly a 2in lift with just springs.

(http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/attachments/f104/38735d1343267204-lifted-2007-subaru-forester-xs-img_0961.jpg)

My Outback was painfully slow when I spent a week in the Rockies a couple of years ago...I'd recommend a turbo for sure. You will also probably have more options if you wait till you are there...the whole stick is just overrun with Subarus.

Quote from: SVT32V on February 08, 2015, 10:21:02 PM
A liberty or Xterra are good bets although they aren't the most comfortable. The former can be had with a turbodiesel, which might be nice in the rockies and the elevation.

Wranglers hold their value way too much to even think about anything in your price range.

It is worth mentioning a Grand Cherokee, for your target price a 2005-2007 with reasonable miles can be had (even a V8 model). The drive system (with V8 models) will probably be better than all others mentioned and it will be comfortable and not lethargic like the others. One would expect it to more than handle the trailheads.

I agree on the GC. I drove one all over the place for 30 kmiles without issue. No idea on the transmission problems, though.

Grand Cherokee, Xterra, FJ, and 4Runner would be good choices...

Aren't FJs tiny inside?

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 09, 2015, 06:29:46 AM
Aren't FJs tiny inside?

Not small but not large either.  They're also grossly overpriced.

Quote from: 68_427 on February 09, 2015, 06:30:22 AM
They're also grossly overpriced.

totally!

I've always loved them and would love one- except for that.

I forgot about the Xterra. Could be a very good option. Not as refined, is harder to find, and not quite as reliable vs. a 4Runner, but it will cost less and was available with 6MT. I'd skip the non-VQ first generation though - pretty gutless.

Hell yeah to the xterra

Although if you want to do some serious offroading, logic would dictate losing the manual transmission...

He didn't say he wanted to do any "serious" off roading

Quote from: r0tor on February 09, 2015, 11:46:27 AM
Although if you want to do some serious offroading, logic would dictate losing the manual transmission...

I'm leaning towards that more and more. I won't be doing serious offroading all the time, but being out in the Rockies, it would be nice to have the ability to do so. Even if the trails within driving distance of the Denver area are pretty good (no idea if they are or not), I can definitely see myself doing longer, excursion-type trips where the extra utility would come in handy.

It's looking like the 4Runner might be the right choice. 2nd gen XTerra automatics apparently had some transmission issues.

Quote from: CALL_911 on February 09, 2015, 11:51:50 AM
He didn't say he wanted to do any "serious" off roading

I'm reconsidering that stance. Around Atlanta, serious offroading is generally limited to rednecks with giant, lifted trucks who do it just for the sake of doing it. Most of the stuff worth seeing is pretty easy to do in a day hike.

But the Rockies are much more expansive and demanding, so while I probably won't be doing serious offroading just for the hell of it, there might be places I want to go that would be more demanding. Plus having something better for towing wouldn't be the worst idea in the world.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 09, 2015, 11:58:56 AM
It's looking like the 4Runner might be the right choice. 2nd gen XTerra automatics apparently had some transmission issues.

What about an Explorer/Tahoe/Durango or something? Might be able to get newer/less miles without the Toyota markup.

Quote from: hotrodalex on February 09, 2015, 12:13:12 PM
What about an Explorer/Tahoe/Durango or something? Might be able to get newer/less miles without the Toyota markup.

I've always been pretty "meh" on American SUVs. I'm especially weary of Chrysler products after the problems my parents have had with their Jeeps. I'd rather pay a premium for a car that I trust more, especially at 100k+ miles. Feel free to convince me otherwise, but that's why I haven't really been looking at them.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 09, 2015, 11:58:56 AM
I'm leaning towards that more and more. I won't be doing serious offroading all the time, but being out in the Rockies, it would be nice to have the ability to do so. Even if the trails within driving distance of the Denver area are pretty good (no idea if they are or not), I can definitely see myself doing longer, excursion-type trips where the extra utility would come in handy.

It's looking like the 4Runner might be the right choice. 2nd gen XTerra automatics apparently had some transmission issues.

Yea, been there and drew the same conclusion on an SUV transmission.  I wanted a manual and realized my search was drifting towards towing/off road ability and realize a manual would be more of a liability then asset.

I feel like even with opening up to automatics you're not going to get any more choices.

I need to take my 4Runner offroading to see what this "manual sux offroad" thing is all about.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 09, 2015, 01:17:33 PM
I feel like even with opening up to automatics you're not going to get any more choices.

I feel like you haven't spent much time looking at this market segment in this price range. :confused: :lol:

There are several additional models that can be found in auto, not to mention that there are many more examples of each model to choose from.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 09, 2015, 01:30:41 PM
I feel like you haven't spent much time looking at this market segment in this price range. :confused: :lol:

There are several additional models that can be found in auto, not to mention that there are many more examples of each model to choose from.

No, I mean you'll get a lot more options since automatics are more common, but you've ruled out american and German SUVs already, so what else is there really? Maybe a pathfinder?

Quote from: thecarnut on February 09, 2015, 01:43:08 PM
No, I mean you'll get a lot more options since automatics are more common, but you've ruled out american and German SUVs already, so what else is there really? Maybe a pathfinder?

A not old 4Runner.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 09, 2015, 12:28:57 PM
I've always been pretty "meh" on American SUVs. I'm especially weary of Chrysler products after the problems my parents have had with their Jeeps. I'd rather pay a premium for a car that I trust more, especially at 100k+ miles. Feel free to convince me otherwise, but that's why I haven't really been looking at them.

I would rather have a newer lower milage GC  than an overpriced high mileage 4runner, even if it needed trans work it would still be cheaper in the long run. At most $1K for the trans work. That plus 4runners have their own problems, probably end up with a timing belt replacement in the V6 that is going to feel gutless in the altitude anyway.

Now that you're looking at automatics, another car you might want to consider is the first-generation Kia Sorento, from before they turned it into a crossover. They don't have the best reliability record compared to other cars of the same age, but you can get one much newer and with much lower mileage than an alternative in your price range.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=SORENTO&driveCode=AWD4WD&showcaseOwnerId=100029468&startYear=2008&makeCode1=KIA&driveCodes=AWD4WD&maxMileage=100000&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BKIA%5BSORENTO%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=384951710&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=SORENTO&driveCode=AWD4WD&showcaseOwnerId=100029468&startYear=2008&makeCode1=KIA&driveCodes=AWD4WD&maxMileage=100000&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BKIA%5BSORENTO%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=384951710&Log=0)

Kia Borrego V8

Quote from: SVT32V on February 09, 2015, 03:59:38 PM
I would rather have a newer lower milage GC  than an overpriced high mileage 4runner, even if it needed trans work it would still be cheaper in the long run. At most $1K for the trans work. That plus 4runners have their own problems, probably end up with a timing belt replacement in the V6 that is going to feel gutless in the altitude anyway.

:confused:

Where do you take your car where an AT rebuild only costs a grand?

Not to mention, the issues my parents had were recurring. Again, they were older generations, but they make me paranoid.

There are a whole lot of them available with way lower miles than 4Runners though. I'll put some thought into them.

Quote from: ifcar on February 09, 2015, 04:35:28 PM
Now that you're looking at automatics, another car you might want to consider is the first-generation Kia Sorento, from before they turned it into a crossover. They don't have the best reliability record compared to other cars of the same age, but you can get one much newer and with much lower mileage than an alternative in your price range.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=SORENTO&driveCode=AWD4WD&showcaseOwnerId=100029468&startYear=2008&makeCode1=KIA&driveCodes=AWD4WD&maxMileage=100000&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BKIA%5BSORENTO%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=384951710&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2010&modelCode1=SORENTO&driveCode=AWD4WD&showcaseOwnerId=100029468&startYear=2008&makeCode1=KIA&driveCodes=AWD4WD&maxMileage=100000&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BKIA%5BSORENTO%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=384951710&Log=0)

Interesting thought, though they look really small. And, not gonna lie, the idea of owning a Kia isn't the most appealing thing in the world, lol. They are low mileage and surprisingly powerful *checks Edmunds*, but holy hell, that small and 4400 lbs? WTF? That seems like a lot. 

And yes, I actually did stop typing that sentence and to go check Edmunds. The rest of the sentence was my actual reaction.

In all seriousness, should I take a closer look at the other Americans? I don't really know enough about them to totally discount them. I don't want anything too huge, and the new Explorers seem pretty huge.

This is turning into a much more complicated problem than I thought it'd be. I was hoping I'd post this, everyone would say, "Yeah Forester!" and I'd be done with it. :lol:

the forester is a goddamn station wagon

Samurai

No one's mentioned Escapes/Tributes/Mariners yet either. Can they hold their own offroad?

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 09, 2015, 08:09:07 PM
No one's mentioned Escapes/Tributes/Mariners yet either. Can they hold their own offroad?

no

Quote from: 2o6 on February 09, 2015, 07:51:58 PM
the forester is a goddamn station wagon

Quote from: 2o6 on February 09, 2015, 08:12:57 PM
no

Well aren't you cheerful this evening?

I have a fuckload of homework and I'm using carspin as a distraction



The Tribute is just as "bad" as the CRV and RAV4 off road.





Suprisingly, the Compass and Patriot are actually pretty good off road. (Especially the Patriot)

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 09, 2015, 07:37:35 PM

Interesting thought, though they look really small. And, not gonna lie, the idea of owning a Kia isn't the most appealing thing in the world, lol. They are low mileage and surprisingly powerful *checks Edmunds*, but holy hell, that small and 4400 lbs? WTF? That seems like a lot. 

And yes, I actually did stop typing that sentence and to go check Edmunds. The rest of the sentence was my actual reaction.

They're not especially small -- they slotted above the Sportage, maybe a half-size bigger than a Forester (though probably about the same on the inside). It's definitely from the era before Kia mastered weight management, though, no question. Car and Driver had a whole "where's the beef?" infographic for the first-generation Sedona van, which came out at the same time and was similarly porky.

In order to make the cars ace US safety crash tests, early Kias IIRC are made of different steel, and super reinforced.


IIRC, the Gen 1 Sedona was somewhere like 2000 lbs heavier in the US compared to the European/Korean version.

I hope you meant 200 lbs, not 2000. :lol:

Quote from: hotrodalex on February 09, 2015, 08:48:49 PM
I hope you meant 200 lbs, not 2000. :lol:

Quick search shows it's like 1000 lbs.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 09, 2015, 11:58:56 AM
I'm leaning towards that more and more. I won't be doing serious offroading all the time, but being out in the Rockies, it would be nice to have the ability to do so. Even if the trails within driving distance of the Denver area are pretty good (no idea if they are or not), I can definitely see myself doing longer, excursion-type trips where the extra utility would come in handy.

It's looking like the 4Runner might be the right choice. 2nd gen XTerra automatics apparently had some transmission issues.

4Runner is a great choice, but go look at the 2001?3? to ? Explorer. Good size, great ride, pretty good quality all around, pretty bomber everything. Has an IRS but real 4WD (high and low range, center diff locks). My folks have a 2007? and I love it. Much higher quality stuff than mine.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 09, 2015, 01:17:33 PM
I feel like even with opening up to automatics you're not going to get any more choices.

I need to take my 4Runner offroading to see what this "manual sux offroad" thing is all about.

It's not that manual sucks and makes it impossible to do any off road driving (low range is especially good to have), it's that an automatic makes it easier.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 09, 2015, 08:09:07 PM
No one's mentioned Escapes/Tributes/Mariners yet either. Can they hold their own offroad?

No, they certainly cannot.

Quote from: Rupert on February 09, 2015, 09:05:28 PM
It's not that manual sucks and makes it impossible to do any off road driving (low range is especially good to have), it's that an automatic makes it easier.

I really want to try using the starter to get over stuff.

I would have to be stuck for 3 hours before I convinced myself to use the starter.

Quote from: Rupert on February 09, 2015, 09:03:31 PM
4Runner is a great choice, but go look at the 2001?3? to ? Explorer. Good size, great ride, pretty good quality all around, pretty bomber everything. Has an IRS but real 4WD (high and low range, center diff locks). My folks have a 2007? and I love it. Much higher quality stuff than mine.

There's a 2002-2005 and a 2006-2010. The 2006s and up look huge but the 02-05s might not be so bad. Definitely cheaper than 4Runners, though equally difficult to find one with low miles.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 09, 2015, 09:56:02 PM
I really want to try using the starter to get over stuff.

Ha I was daydreaming about that today

Quote from: hotrodalex on February 09, 2015, 09:57:08 PM
I would have to be stuck for 3 hours before I convinced myself to use the starter.

My 4Runner has a clutch bypass switch on the dash meant for just that. :huh:

Someone mentioned it but if AT is an option I really like the pre boxy Pathfinders. The last couple of model years had the vq.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 09, 2015, 09:59:15 PM
There's a 2002-2005 and a 2006-2010. The 2006s and up look huge but the 02-05s might not be so bad. Definitely cheaper than 4Runners, though equally difficult to find one with low miles.

Ah, so there are. Wiki says they're pretty much the same size, and my folks' looks pretty much the same size as mine. I wouldn't worry about that.

Yeah..pretty sure the 2002-2010 uses the same basic structure / body with only the front clip being entirely different.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 09, 2015, 09:56:02 PM
I really want to try using the starter to get over stuff.

We've been over this, and that is a dumb idea. That switch is for bump starting. You will not be able to get up anything any better using the starter vs. the engine. You're still limited to the gearing in the truck, and you'll have little control with the starter. You can try it, but you'd be an idiot, and no, it's not a hardcore super offroader secret. ;)

If you do go out "off roading", make sure you go with someone to pull you out, because you will get stuck. :lol:

Quote from: thecarnut on February 09, 2015, 10:16:27 PM
My 4Runner has a clutch bypass switch on the dash meant for just that. :huh:

No.

Quote from: TBR on February 09, 2015, 10:45:13 PM
Yeah..pretty sure the 2002-2010 uses the same basic structure / body with only the front clip being entirely different.

There are very minor size and weight differences (most notably, the 02-05 has a bit more ground clearance and is a bit lighter), and it looks like the 2006- got an upgraded V8, but otherwise they're pretty similar.

I'm slowly working on building a spreadsheet to compare all the different models/engines/trims/years of cars I'm looking at. So far, the JGC looks like the best balance on paper, but everywhere I look online that's not on a Jeep forum pretty much says that their reliability and build quality are pretty bad.

Other than that, the 4Runner still looks like the best choice, though I still have a lot of specs to research. I might have to seriously consider bumping up my price range, as much as I don't want to. I'll have a better idea after my annual review next week.

I also need to do some research into exactly how bad the Xterra's transmission problems were. If they aren't that serious, they're looking like the best balance of price/capability/size/reliability.

Quote from: Rupert on February 09, 2015, 10:48:01 PM
We've been over this, and that is a dumb idea. That switch is for bump starting. You will not be able to get up anything any better using the starter vs. the engine.

You're doing it wrong then

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 12, 2015, 05:53:11 PM
You're doing it wrong then

I'm not doing it at all, for obvious reasons.

That just sounds like a great way to burn up and ruin a starter.


I ruined my friends Corolla AE86 starter when it got stuck on for 30 seconds

Quote from: Rupert on February 09, 2015, 10:48:01 PM
We've been over this, and that is a dumb idea. That switch is for bump starting. You will not be able to get up anything any better using the starter vs. the engine. You're still limited to the gearing in the truck, and you'll have little control with the starter. You can try it, but you'd be an idiot, and no, it's not a hardcore super offroader secret. ;)

If you do go out "off roading", make sure you go with someone to pull you out, because you will get stuck. :lol:

Why would you need a clutch bypass button to bump start? You're supposed to actually use[ the clutch to bump start a car. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to know that since you sold your old Jeep because you thought it was broken and didn't know how to bump start it. ;) (see, I can be condescending too)

A quick 5 minute Google search shows people on various offroading forums saying that clutch bypass systems are meant to be used on steep inclines or any place where rolling back wouldn't be an option. Obviously it's not great for the starter but that's exactly what it was designed to do.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 14, 2015, 03:53:47 PM
Why would you need a clutch bypass button to bump start? You're supposed to actually use[ the clutch to bump start a car. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to know that since you sold your old Jeep because you thought it was broken and didn't know how to bump start it. ;) (see, I can be condescending too)

A quick 5 minute Google search shows people on various offroading forums saying that clutch bypass systems are meant to be used on steep inclines or any place where rolling back wouldn't be an option. Obviously it's not great for the starter but that's exactly what it was designed to do.

I though clutch bypass systems were used when installing remote starters.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 14, 2015, 03:53:47 PM
Why would you need a clutch bypass button to bump start? You're supposed to actually use[ the clutch to bump start a car. Then again, I wouldn't expect you to know that since you sold your old Jeep because you thought it was broken and didn't know how to bump start it. ;) (see, I can be condescending too)

A quick 5 minute Google search shows people on various offroading forums saying that clutch bypass systems are meant to be used on steep inclines or any place where rolling back wouldn't be an option. Obviously it's not great for the starter but that's exactly what it was designed to do.

Well I was wrong to be so snarky-- went back and looked at the previous discussion, and it wasn't as black and white as I'd thought. However...

How far back did you have to search to find that old chestnut? ;) That actually was not the reason I sold that massive pile of shit Jeep, and of course I know how to bump start a car. Could be I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the clutch switch was on the ignition wire as well (i.e. prevents the car from starting at all, not just the starter from spinning). If that's the case, then yes, you would need to bypass the switch to bump start.

Link me if you like, but again, that's not what you're supposed to use it for. If you've stopped on an incline so steep you can't start off again in 4lo without stalling or before rolling off the road of something, you've already fucked it up. Roll to the bottom and try again. If you can't roll to the bottom, use the e-brake to hold you as you get moving. If you can't do that (e-brake is busted, but then why are you even out there in a place you might need it), then maybe I can see a reason to use the clutch bypass. You would start the car in gear, with much lurching and out-of-controlness, and it might not work. But you would never use only the starter intentionally to climb something, that's ridiculous. It's not a first choice thing, you don't just go, gee, this is kind of steep, better use the starter.

So sorry for being an ass for no reason, but you still don't seem to know what you're talking about.

Quote from: Rupert on February 09, 2015, 10:48:01 PM
We've been over this, and that is a dumb idea. That switch is for bump starting. You will not be able to get up anything any better using the starter vs. the engine. You're still limited to the gearing in the truck, and you'll have little control with the starter. You can try it, but you'd be an idiot, and no, it's not a hardcore super offroader secret. ;)

If you do go out "off roading", make sure you go with someone to pull you out, because you will get stuck. :lol:

Starter motors are DC motors and thus do not have any inherent current limiting nature. They'll draw enough amps to burn themselves up if they're loaded up enough which is exactly what happens when it is tasked with moving a car vs. just turning the engine. Further, all that additional torque output will put huge stress on the gears/shaft/bearings of the solenoid and motor, which is asking to jam the works.

Between an e-brake, 4Lo, and decent clutch skills I see no utility in using the starter for anything other than turning the engine, even if there weren't any risk of damaging it. I think mfrs put 'em for practical reasons - imagine wearing some big ass work boots - would be a PITA or maybe impossible to depress the clutch to the floor to trigger the start switch (I had that issue with Sorels when driving my Tacoma).

Quote from: Rupert on February 14, 2015, 05:03:37 PM
Well I was wrong to be so snarky-- went back and looked at the previous discussion, and it wasn't as black and white as I'd thought. However...

How far back did you have to search to find that old chestnut? ;) That actually was not the reason I sold that massive pile of shit Jeep, and of course I know how to bump start a car. Could be I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the clutch switch was on the ignition wire as well (i.e. prevents the car from starting at all, not just the starter from spinning). If that's the case, then yes, you would need to bypass the switch to bump start.

Link me if you like, but again, that's not what you're supposed to use it for. If you've stopped on an incline so steep you can't start off again in 4lo without stalling or before rolling off the road of something, you've already fucked it up. Roll to the bottom and try again. If you can't roll to the bottom, use the e-brake to hold you as you get moving. If you can't do that (e-brake is busted, but then why are you even out there in a place you might need it), then maybe I can see a reason to use the clutch bypass. You would start the car in gear, with much lurching and out-of-controlness, and it might not work. But you would never use only the starter intentionally to climb something, that's ridiculous. It's not a first choice thing, you don't just go, gee, this is kind of steep, better use the starter.

So sorry for being an ass for no reason, but you still don't seem to know what you're talking about.

"Three-footing the clutch, brake, and gas on a steep hill is difficult, especially when your buddy parked his freshly painted rig two millimeters behind you. Sometimes you want to start your rig in gear, without losing any position on the obstacle. Sometimes it is convenience, but other times it is darn near necessary for safety. With the clutch safety switch bypassed, turning the key spins the starter -- and holding the key turned to the start position keeps the engine slowly turning until it fires and the vehicle idles off (all without stomping on any of the pedals).

4-wheelers with low gears want to be able to start in low gear -- as noted before, sometimes safety almost requires it -- but it also may be their lowest gear. Think about it... many starters have an additional set of reduction gears built into them, and electric motors develop their peak torque regardless of RPM. If the starter motor can turn against the load of the vehicle, the truck will move up the obstacle. This is pretty rough on the starter, and lengthy use of the starter as the sole means of motivation for the rig will dramatically reduce the life of your starter."

http://www.4x4wire.com/tech/minutemods/clutchbypass/ (http://www.4x4wire.com/tech/minutemods/clutchbypass/)

If you search for "clutch safety bypass" on google, the vast majority is for off-road vehicles (Jeeps, Xterras, etc). Why would that be the case if it weren't used for offroading? And why does mine (and older Jeeps and I'm sure others) come with one stock? The newer Wranglers have a simple "mod" that just requires a fuse to be able to use the clutch bypass, which is even referred to in the owners manual.

I've bump started 4-5 different cars and none of them have had anything that prevented the motor from spinning over when bump started. Hell, I've done it on my old Volvo 240 and my NC Miata.

Oh, and I'm not dumb. I remember Run Away telling you to bump start the Jeep, and you not being able to (or didn't understand how to). The dudes who bought it just bumped it and drove away. ;)

The clutch pedal interlock only locks out the starter motor, not the ignition.  If it did the latter, the car would stall as soon as you let the clutch out.  Bump starting uses the wheels to turn the engine over instead of the starter motor.  Provided the ignition is on and you have fuel, the motor will start if you can turn it over fast enough.

As to using the starter when rock crawling, yes, it's pretty common practice.  It's only supposed to be done when in 1-lo (crawler gear) where torque multiplication is so high that there is minimal strain on the starter.  It can also be beneficial getting unstuck on a slick surface since an electric motor can create torque at 0 rpm.

Quote from: thecarnut on February 14, 2015, 08:18:45 PM
"Three-footing the clutch, brake, and gas on a steep hill is difficult, especially when your buddy parked his freshly painted rig two millimeters behind you. Sometimes you want to start your rig in gear, without losing any position on the obstacle. Sometimes it is convenience, but other times it is darn near necessary for safety. With the clutch safety switch bypassed, turning the key spins the starter -- and holding the key turned to the start position keeps the engine slowly turning until it fires and the vehicle idles off (all without stomping on any of the pedals).

4-wheelers with low gears want to be able to start in low gear -- as noted before, sometimes safety almost requires it -- but it also may be their lowest gear. Think about it... many starters have an additional set of reduction gears built into them, and electric motors develop their peak torque regardless of RPM. If the starter motor can turn against the load of the vehicle, the truck will move up the obstacle. This is pretty rough on the starter, and lengthy use of the starter as the sole means of motivation for the rig will dramatically reduce the life of your starter."

http://www.4x4wire.com/tech/minutemods/clutchbypass/ (http://www.4x4wire.com/tech/minutemods/clutchbypass/)

If you search for "clutch safety bypass" on google, the vast majority is for off-road vehicles (Jeeps, Xterras, etc). Why would that be the case if it weren't used for offroading? And why does mine (and older Jeeps and I'm sure others) come with one stock? The newer Wranglers have a simple "mod" that just requires a fuse to be able to use the clutch bypass, which is even referred to in the owners manual.

I've bump started 4-5 different cars and none of them have had anything that prevented the motor from spinning over when bump started. Hell, I've done it on my old Volvo 240 and my NC Miata.

Oh, and I'm not dumb. I remember Run Away telling you to bump start the Jeep, and you not being able to (or didn't understand how to). The dudes who bought it just bumped it and drove away. ;)

1) That's all way more hardcore offroading than your 4Runner is capable of (note especially extra-low gears and situations your car will never be able to get into), and 2) it's still a stupid idea. I admit I have no idea why Toyota installed that switch as stock, but if you use it for, uh, anything, you're Doing It Wrong, for all the reasons previously outlined. I suspect marketing.

I have no idea about who said what when about that Jeep, it was almost 10 years ago. It had a lot of problems, and was getting sold no matter if or how it started. The guy who bought it did indeed bump start it and drive away. I'm more concerned with why you have to bump start so many cars.

I'd rather use a winch to get out than kill my starter.

As to starting on a hill - one won't ever be able to exactly time disengaging the starter and hitting the gas which means one has two options - stalling the engine or overspeeding the starter.

If a starter was meant to be used to do any material work in moving a vehicle it would be 10x beefier and have dual batteries.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 15, 2015, 01:43:48 PM
As to starting on a hill - one won't ever be able to exactly time disengaging the starter and hitting the gas which means one has two options - stalling the engine or overspeeding the starter.

If a starter was meant to be used to do any material work in moving a vehicle it would be 10x beefier and have dual batteries.

If the goal is trying to crawl out of a loose surface hill with low traction, you're not going to be giving it the gas.  If the starter has enough grunt to move the vehicle, then engine idle is all you need in crawler gear to move.

Tasks for today:

-Test drive Exploder
-Test drive 4Runner

Also starting to wonder if I should take a serious look at pick-ups. Tacomas are too expensive (even worse than 4Runners), but F-150s might be feasible.

Dark horse: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&modelCode1=RIDGELINE&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=98720&startYear=1981&makeCode1=HONDA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BHONDA%5BRIDGELINE%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=391034445&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&modelCode1=RIDGELINE&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=98720&startYear=1981&makeCode1=HONDA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BHONDA%5BRIDGELINE%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=391034445&Log=0)

Pickup with a cap might be decent.

Hummer H1 or go home.

Quote from: ifcar on February 21, 2015, 09:17:07 AM
Dark horse: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&modelCode1=RIDGELINE&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=98720&startYear=1981&makeCode1=HONDA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BHONDA%5BRIDGELINE%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=391034445&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&modelCode1=RIDGELINE&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=98720&startYear=1981&makeCode1=HONDA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BHONDA%5BRIDGELINE%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=391034445&Log=0)

With real time 4WD


So it's useless off road

Quote from: 2o6 on February 21, 2015, 01:31:21 PM

With real time 4WD


So it's useless off road

Nah, it'd be fine for pot-holed gravel roads and moderately deep snow. Smooth quiet ride. Lots of interior room. Will rival the 4Runner in reliability (but will have the timing belt issue at 105k). It also has locking t-case functionality and limited slip rear (not sure if it's on all models though). It's a good option.

I have no idea about the Ridgeline, other than it's not well-thought of, but he's probably going to encounter more than potholed gravel roads. I would expect lots of unsurfaced roads with ruts and gullies and washouts.

I think a Ridgeline would work for any trail he'd feel comfortable driving on.

Then look at other car based SUV's, too.

Looking into it, the VTM4 is really similar to the RT4WD. The limits are low (not much rear power) and it generally is FWD unless slip is detected. The Fake low range only works under like 8mph and it'll transition to the front wheels ASAP. And IIRC it'll only work under accel, like RT4WD on the CR-V.




I'm not seeing a real big benefit over an Element. It seems a little meh to look at that and shit on other cheaper car based SUV's.

If it has the same system as the CRV et al., then it's not worth it. I think he's on the right track with the 4Runner and Explorer (and maybe still the Forester?).

Quote from: Laconian on February 21, 2015, 12:17:01 PM
Hummer H1 or go home.

All joking aside, the H3 is supposed to be pretty capable offroad.

Also, it not already mentioned:
FJ Cruiser
Nissan Xterra
Nissan Pathfinder (the old truck-based ones, not the newer crossover models).

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 21, 2015, 09:07:18 AM
Tasks for today:

-Test drive Exploder
-Test drive 4Runner

Also starting to wonder if I should take a serious look at pick-ups. Tacomas are too expensive (even worse than 4Runners), but F-150s might be feasible.

Drove:

2006 Exploder V8 Eddie Bauer (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&maxPrice=16000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BFORD%5BEXPLOR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1424532957000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=EXPLOR&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=50757774&makeCode1=FORD&startYear=2006&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=391376368&Log=0) - Pleasantly surprised. Did not feel like a vehicle with 130,000+ miles on it. Plush, good acceleration, nice features. If I go for Exploder, I will probably specifically look for an Eddie Bauer. While it wouldn't be used a ton, I could definitely see the third row being used for day-hike type events, and they're easy to fold away when not being used. Not sure how the third row affects cargo room, but the car is big enough that I'm not worried about it. Heated seats definitely a plus for my Colorado future. Reliability is still probably not as good as a 4Runner, but build quality is no longer suspect, and the difference in price would probably make up for the cost of any additional repairs. That advantage is probably much smaller when future resale is factored in, but I tend to keep cars for a long time, which would help shrink the resale gap.

2006 Exploder V6 Eddie Bauer (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&maxPrice=16000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BFORD%5BEXPLOR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1424532957000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=EXPLOR&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=50757774&makeCode1=FORD&startYear=2006&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=387550049&Log=0) - Not sure if it was really the engine or if it was the transmission gearing/programming, but I felt like, with any sort of moderately aggressive throttle input, it was revving awfully high before upshifting. It felt okay at low RPMs though, so maybe alright for off roading and mountainy roads? I don't really know - could use some input here. Otherwise same as above. 

2007 4Runner V6 SR5 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=6CLDR&maxPrice=16000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1424532957000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=2002&makeCode1=TOYOTA&engineCodes=6CLDR&maxMileage=100000&searchRadius=200&listingId=389506910&Log=0) - Definitely felt truckier than the Exploders, though I don't consider that a bad thing. This particular car was pretty beat up. In general (after looking at a 2006 4Runner and a GX470 on the same lot), I got the impression that the dealership specializes in buying the auction cars that no one else wanted, attempting to spruce them up, and selling them at "good deal" prices so that people ignore their shortcomings. Based on the aftermarket head unit and what I'm 95% sure was an aftermarket exhaust, I'm guessing the previous driver was some rich kid who did stupid stuff with it. Still, I like how it handled and the V6, while not as good as the Ford V8, felt much better than the Ford V6. Steering was a bit vague, and when I thought back to the Exploder, I don't remember thinking about the steering at all, so it must have been better. I'm definitely going to find a better example of a 4Runner though and see how big of a difference it makes.

Are you concerned with gas mileage at all? I think the V8 is pretty thirsty. As far as the transmission shifting, I'm not sure what it supposed to feel like, but for off highway driving (and for going up and down mountains in general), you'll want to limit the gear, anyway.

What off road goodies did they have? LSD, lockers, hill descent?

Quote from: Rupert on February 21, 2015, 06:15:40 PM
Are you concerned with gas mileage at all? I think the V8 is pretty thirsty. As far as the transmission shifting, I'm not sure what it supposed to feel like, but for off highway driving (and for going up and down mountains in general), you'll want to limit the gear, anyway.

What off road goodies did they have? LSD, lockers, hill descent?

Fuel consumption for Ford's V6 isn't particularly good either.  When it was still being used in the Mustang, it only got 1-2 mpg better than the V8.

Apparently, the Explorer 4.6 V8 gets almost the same mileage as the Cologne 4.0 V6...which is a bit of a dated engine.  The advice from the Explorer forum is "go with the V8".  As for the 4Runner, really don't know...other than repairs will, likely, be more expensive.

Quote from: Rupert on February 21, 2015, 06:15:40 PM
What off road goodies did they have? LSD, lockers, hill descent?

Didn't really ask for specifics. I was more just trying to see how they felt to drive. To be honest, I'm not really sure what I should be looking for... lol

Apparently the V8 also has a 6-speed transmission vs a 5-speed in the V6.

Quote from: MX793 on February 21, 2015, 06:23:22 PM
Fuel consumption for Ford's V6 isn't particularly good either.  When it was still being used in the Mustang, it only got 1-2 mpg better than the V8.

It was even worse with the pushrod V6 (that I have). What a piece that engine is...

Looking at the mileage figures, they're apparently the same, so there you go.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 21, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
Didn't really ask for specifics. I was more just trying to see how they felt to drive. To be honest, I'm not really sure what I should be looking for... lol

Rear locker would be good, but really not at all necessary. I was just curious. :lol:

Quote from: FoMoJo on February 21, 2015, 06:24:35 PM
Apparently, the Explorer 4.6 V8 gets almost the same mileage as the Cologne 4.0 V6...which is a bit of a dated engine.  The advice from the Explorer forum is "go with the V8".  As for the 4Runner, really don't know...other than repairs will, likely, be more expensive.

FYI, unless it's massively improved, the Explorer forum is possibly the worst place to go on the internet for Explorer advice.

Check out the Buick Encore Luxury Subcompact Crossover Utility Vehicle!

So we're talking about affordable used offroad capable SUV's and not a single mention of a wrangler?

Would a manual really be that bad? Cuz FJ.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnlyActual=true&modelCode1=FJCRUIS&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5BFJCRUIS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=391449341&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnlyActual=true&modelCode1=FJCRUIS&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5BFJCRUIS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=391449341&Log=0)

Also, here's a less-shitty looking 4Runner in my area. I think I'll check it out tomorrow.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&maxPrice=16000&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5BFJCRUIS%5B%5D4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=FJCRUIS&photosOnlyActual=true&makeCode2=TOYOTA&modelCode2=4RUN&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=391184595&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&maxPrice=16000&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5BFJCRUIS%5B%5D4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=FJCRUIS&photosOnlyActual=true&makeCode2=TOYOTA&modelCode2=4RUN&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=391184595&Log=0)

Quote from: SVT_Power on February 21, 2015, 07:18:45 PM
So we're talking about affordable used offroad capable SUV's and not a single mention of a wrangler?

Wranglers are hardly affordable. Those things hold their value like crazy.

Quote from: SVT_Power on February 21, 2015, 07:18:45 PM
So we're talking about affordable used offroad capable SUV's and not a single mention of a wrangler?

And thank god for that!

FJ's are good, but they seems like they don't have the space inside that their exterior dimensions suggest. Also visibility is bad. Check one out, though! My boss drives one and likes it.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 21, 2015, 07:35:57 PM
Wranglers are hardly affordable. Those things hold their value like crazy.

http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/628355371/overview/ (http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/628355371/overview/)

At the $13k cap but under 70k miles. The indestructible I6 + 5 speed  :huh:

Quote from: SVT_Power on February 21, 2015, 07:49:56 PM
http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/628355371/overview/ (http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/628355371/overview/)

At the $13k cap but under 70k miles. The indestructible I6 + 5 speed  :huh:

Point taken. 

Maybe if I were staying in the south east and were just looking for a car to day trips to the mountains. But out in Colorado, it will be my primary car several months of the year.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 21, 2015, 07:58:54 PM
Point taken. 

Maybe if I were staying in the south east and were just looking for a car to day trips to the mountains. But out in Colorado, it will be my primary car several months of the year.

Ah okay. I was gonna say if you were gonna DD this SUV, then maybe the wrangler wouldn't be a good idea. I thought this was just gonna be a weekend hiking trip kinda vehicle.

Maybe in the future when I'm rich, I could own three cars, or if I end up coming back to the southeast. I've always loved Wranglers but I've never had a good reason to own one.

EDIT: Typos.

Quote from: Rupert on February 21, 2015, 06:45:07 PM
It was even worse with the pushrod V6 (that I have). What a piece that engine is...

Looking at the mileage figures, they're apparently the same, so there you go.

MPG is mostly a function ovehicle weight. When you get into trucks/SUVs the % weight difference between a V6 and V8 engine is so small relative to overall weight it really doesn't matter.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 21, 2015, 07:29:52 PM
Would a manual really be that bad? Cuz FJ.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnlyActual=true&modelCode1=FJCRUIS&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5BFJCRUIS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=391449341&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnlyActual=true&modelCode1=FJCRUIS&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5BFJCRUIS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=391449341&Log=0)

Also, here's a less-shitty looking 4Runner in my area. I think I'll check it out tomorrow.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&maxPrice=16000&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5BFJCRUIS%5B%5D4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=FJCRUIS&photosOnlyActual=true&makeCode2=TOYOTA&modelCode2=4RUN&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=391184595&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&maxPrice=16000&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5BFJCRUIS%5B%5D4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=FJCRUIS&photosOnlyActual=true&makeCode2=TOYOTA&modelCode2=4RUN&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=391184595&Log=0)

People sure love their FJs but IMO the 4Runner is a much better vehicle.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 21, 2015, 09:05:10 PM
People sure love their FJs but IMO the 4Runner is a much better vehicle.

I'm gonna go test drive them both tomorrow.

I'll admit, both the manual and the cool factor of the FJ are a large part of the appeal. The fact that it's a grand cheaper doesn't hurt either, especially since they're both stretching the original budget. As an all around vehicle, the 4Runner is almost certainly better.

Personally, I would buy the Explorer, hand down, but I have the odd requirement of >= 6'2" of flat room in the back for sleeping.

Quote from: Rupert on February 21, 2015, 09:30:57 PM
Personally, I would buy the Explorer, hand down, but I have the odd requirement of >= 6'2" of flat room in the back for sleeping.

Roof rack.

I'm not gonna lie... the idea of doing an S2000 / FJ Cruiser photoshoot is pretty awesome.

I would have to get a couple grand off that 4Runner. I really can't spend more than $16k out the door. Not right now anyway. 

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 21, 2015, 09:48:46 PM
Roof rack.

I took mine off for gas mileage.

Quote from: Rupert on February 21, 2015, 10:00:26 PM
I took mine off for gas mileage.

Extra legroom?

http://www.truck-bedz.com/suv-tent-rightline-gear/ (http://www.truck-bedz.com/suv-tent-rightline-gear/)

I keep a sleeping bag in Accent, and I have slept in it a couple of times. No tent, no huge truck. Whatevs.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 21, 2015, 10:07:28 PM
Extra legroom?

http://www.truck-bedz.com/suv-tent-rightline-gear/ (http://www.truck-bedz.com/suv-tent-rightline-gear/)

Jesus gods no. If I wanted to set up a tent, I would just use a tent!

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 21, 2015, 10:16:34 PM
I keep a sleeping bag in Accent, and I have slept in it a couple of times. No tent, no huge truck. Whatevs.

I want to actually sleep, though.

Quote from: Rupert on February 21, 2015, 10:29:52 PM
I want to actually sleep, though.

(http://www.proof66.com/images/hires/201110241906094ea5ef610af03.jpg)

(http://www.mountainside-medical.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/i/diphenhydramine-25-mg-caplets-allergy-relief-pills.jpg)

Fair point.

You'd be surprised at the places that subie awd will go. I'd be interested to see comparisons of actual off-roading.

FJs are kind of cool. A good friend of mine ( car dude that raced in some series at mid ohio in a Miata) sold his garage of like 5 cars, bought an FJ. He's got it all lifted and  plans to move to Colorado too.

I looked into them and ended up not getting one for two reasons. 1. They're expensive as hell. 2. The interior is really cramped. For being a 2nd, practical vehicle, they sure as hell aren't very practical. The back seats and cargo area and both nearly worthless.

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 22, 2015, 05:22:00 AM
You'd be surprised at the places that subie awd will go. I'd be interested to see comparisons of actual off-roading.

Subarus are hurt by low-ish ground clearance, on-road suspension, lame stock tires (and some of them require new wheels in order to get good tires), and most of all, no low range. They exceed at traction. I've seen them struggle a bit to get through stuff that a regular truck with a low range just rolls through. Traction is important, but it's not the only thing. If they had a low range, IMO the other stuff would come out in the wash.

That said, yes, a Forester will get you there most of the time, but you'll be more likely to have a hard time at it.

The dealership with the FJ Cruiser couldn't find the keys, so no test drive.

The 4Runner I drove today (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=6CLDR&maxPrice=16000&showcaseListingId=393712388&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1424563437000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=670995&startYear=2002&makeCode1=TOYOTA&engineCodes=6CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=391184595&Log=0) was much better than the one I drove yesterday. Great car. V6 was plenty powerful. Still, too damn expensive. This particular one's asking price was only a few bucks short of my out-the-door limit, and they seemed very unwilling to negotiate. I'm keeping them on the list just in case one pops up for a really good deal, but I don't think I'm going to find one in the price range that I'm comfortable with

Did some more research into the Xterra's transmission issues... if the problem occurs - it occurs bad. Like, several thousand dollars bad. That said, I'm going to keep digging into the issue to see if there's a way around it. If I can get the transmission checked when I buy the car, and fix whatever the problem was before it happens, the Xterra is looking like a great choice.

Other than that, I'm pretty much down to the Explorer or a Cherokee. The only reason reason I'm reconsidering the Cherokee is that they can be found for like 6-7 grand with reasonably low mileage (~100k), making my accounts very happy.

Cheapness is mighty persuasive.

Liberty?

Quote from: 2o6 on February 22, 2015, 02:53:29 PM
Liberty?

Still in the back of my mind. I've read less-than-great reports of build quality and reliability, though I haven't really looked into them too much.

Quote from: Rupert on February 22, 2015, 02:18:34 PM
Cheapness is mighty persuasive.

Yes, yes it is. (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?maxPrice=14000&trim1=ELEMENT%7CEX&lastExec=1422831522000&modelCode1=PILOT&modelCode2=SUBOUTBK&makeCode2=SUB&modelCode3=CHER&makeCode1=HONDA&maxMileage=150000&makeCode3=JEEP&endYear=2016&zip=30363&photosOnly=true&driveCodes=AWD4WD&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BHONDA%5BELEMENT%5BELEMENT%257CEX%5DPILOT%5B%5DRIDGELINE%5B%5D%5D%5B%5DSUB%5BFOREST%5BFOREST%257C2.5XT%5EFOREST%257C2.5XT%2BLimited%5EFOREST%257C2.5XT%2BPremium%5EFOREST%257C2.5XT%2BTouring%5DSUBOUTBK%5BSUBOUTBK%257C2.5XT%5ESUBOUTBK%257C2.5XT%2BLimited%5D%5D%5B%5DJEEP%5BCHER%5BCHER%257CBriarwood%5ECHER%257CChief%5ECHER%257CClassic%5ECHER%257CCountry%5ECHER%257CLaredo%5ECHER%257CLatitude%5ECHER%257CLimited%5ECHER%257CPioneer%5ECHER%257CSport%5ECHER%257CTrailhawk%5D%5D%5B%5DTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5DFJCRUIS%5B%5DLC%5B%5D%5D%5B%5DLEXUS%5B%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&photosOnlyActual=true&driveCode=AWD4WD&sortBy=mileageASC&startYear=1981&showcaseOwnerId=98720&numRecords=100&searchRadius=100&listingId=389492505&Log=0) And part of me is saying "you've been DDing an S2000 for the past two years - you don't need creature comforts!" Then I remember how nice that Explorer Eddie Bauer was. But for 5-7 grand more? Is it worth it? 

Also, if I go for slightly higher mileage there are some Lexus GX470s (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?maxPrice=14000&trim1=ELEMENT%7CEX&lastExec=1422831522000&modelCode1=PILOT&modelCode2=SUBOUTBK&makeCode2=SUB&modelCode3=CHER&makeCode1=HONDA&maxMileage=150000&makeCode3=JEEP&endYear=2016&zip=30363&photosOnly=true&driveCodes=AWD4WD&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BHONDA%5BELEMENT%5BELEMENT%257CEX%5DPILOT%5B%5DRIDGELINE%5B%5D%5D%5B%5DSUB%5BFOREST%5BFOREST%257C2.5XT%5EFOREST%257C2.5XT%2BLimited%5EFOREST%257C2.5XT%2BPremium%5EFOREST%257C2.5XT%2BTouring%5DSUBOUTBK%5BSUBOUTBK%257C2.5XT%5ESUBOUTBK%257C2.5XT%2BLimited%5D%5D%5B%5DJEEP%5BCHER%5BCHER%257CBriarwood%5ECHER%257CChief%5ECHER%257CClassic%5ECHER%257CCountry%5ECHER%257CLaredo%5ECHER%257CLatitude%5ECHER%257CLimited%5ECHER%257CPioneer%5ECHER%257CSport%5ECHER%257CTrailhawk%5D%5D%5B%5DTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5DFJCRUIS%5B%5DLC%5B%5D%5D%5B%5DLEXUS%5B%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&photosOnlyActual=true&driveCode=AWD4WD&sortBy=mileageASC&startYear=1981&showcaseOwnerId=98720&numRecords=100&searchRadius=100&listingId=363591816&Log=0) creeping into the upper end of my price range. Another Example (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?maxPrice=14000&trim1=ELEMENT%7CEX&lastExec=1422831522000&modelCode1=PILOT&modelCode2=SUBOUTBK&makeCode2=SUB&modelCode3=CHER&makeCode1=HONDA&maxMileage=150000&makeCode3=JEEP&endYear=2016&zip=30363&photosOnly=true&driveCodes=AWD4WD&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BHONDA%5BELEMENT%5BELEMENT%257CEX%5DPILOT%5B%5DRIDGELINE%5B%5D%5D%5B%5DSUB%5BFOREST%5BFOREST%257C2.5XT%5EFOREST%257C2.5XT%2BLimited%5EFOREST%257C2.5XT%2BPremium%5EFOREST%257C2.5XT%2BTouring%5DSUBOUTBK%5BSUBOUTBK%257C2.5XT%5ESUBOUTBK%257C2.5XT%2BLimited%5D%5D%5B%5DJEEP%5BCHER%5BCHER%257CBriarwood%5ECHER%257CChief%5ECHER%257CClassic%5ECHER%257CCountry%5ECHER%257CLaredo%5ECHER%257CLatitude%5ECHER%257CLimited%5ECHER%257CPioneer%5ECHER%257CSport%5ECHER%257CTrailhawk%5D%5D%5B%5DTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5DFJCRUIS%5B%5DLC%5B%5D%5D%5B%5DLEXUS%5B%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&photosOnlyActual=true&driveCode=AWD4WD&sortBy=mileageASC&startYear=1981&showcaseOwnerId=98720&numRecords=100&searchRadius=100&listingId=385955914&Log=0)

Well shit, I might have to act on this.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&driveCodes=AWD4WD&maxPrice=14000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BJEEP%5BCHER%5BCHER%257CBriarwood%5ECHER%257CChief%5ECHER%257CClassic%5ECHER%257CCountry%5ECHER%257CLaredo%5ECHER%257CLatitude%5ECHER%257CLimited%5ECHER%257CPioneer%5ECHER%257CSport%5ECHER%257CTrailhawk%5D%5D%5B%5DTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5DFJCRUIS%5B%5DLC%5B%5D%5D%5B%5DLEXUS%5BGX460%5B%5DGX470%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1422831522000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&photosOnlyActual=true&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=mileageASC&driveCode=AWD4WD&makeCode2=LEXUS&modelCode2=GX460&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&modelCode3=CHER&numRecords=100&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=100&makeCode3=JEEP&listingId=393959590&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&driveCodes=AWD4WD&maxPrice=14000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BJEEP%5BCHER%5BCHER%257CBriarwood%5ECHER%257CChief%5ECHER%257CClassic%5ECHER%257CCountry%5ECHER%257CLaredo%5ECHER%257CLatitude%5ECHER%257CLimited%5ECHER%257CPioneer%5ECHER%257CSport%5ECHER%257CTrailhawk%5D%5D%5B%5DTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5DFJCRUIS%5B%5DLC%5B%5D%5D%5B%5DLEXUS%5BGX460%5B%5DGX470%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1422831522000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&photosOnlyActual=true&modelCode1=4RUN&sortBy=mileageASC&driveCode=AWD4WD&makeCode2=LEXUS&modelCode2=GX460&showcaseOwnerId=94609&startYear=1981&makeCode1=TOYOTA&modelCode3=CHER&numRecords=100&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=100&makeCode3=JEEP&listingId=393959590&Log=0)

I think I would avoid modern luxury SUVs-- seems like a lot to go wrong and do so expensively.

Check out that 4Runner, though!

A base model Lexus GX470 would be ideal.  Nice interior, not much luxury.  It has leather seats, birds eye maple wood trim, and fantastic headlights.  The only complicated thing on them is the rear air suspension.  Aside from that, it's as simple as a 4Runner...because it IS a 4Runner.

Quote from: Rupert on February 22, 2015, 02:18:34 PM
Cheapness is mighty persuasive.

Cheapness isn't instantaneous though ;). Sure you're gonna pay quite a bit more for a 4Runner but add in fewer repairs and less depreciation and it's probably gonna be about the same.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 22, 2015, 02:12:13 PM
The dealership with the FJ Cruiser couldn't find the keys, so no test drive.

The 4Runner I drove today (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=6CLDR&maxPrice=16000&showcaseListingId=393712388&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1424563437000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=670995&startYear=2002&makeCode1=TOYOTA&engineCodes=6CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=391184595&Log=0) was much better than the one I drove yesterday. Great car. V6 was plenty powerful. Still, too damn expensive. This particular one's asking price was only a few bucks short of my out-the-door limit, and they seemed very unwilling to negotiate. I'm keeping them on the list just in case one pops up for a really good deal, but I don't think I'm going to find one in the price range that I'm comfortable with

Did some more research into the Xterra's transmission issues... if the problem occurs - it occurs bad. Like, several thousand dollars bad. That said, I'm going to keep digging into the issue to see if there's a way around it. If I can get the transmission checked when I buy the car, and fix whatever the problem was before it happens, the Xterra is looking like a great choice.

Other than that, I'm pretty much down to the Explorer or a Cherokee. The only reason reason I'm reconsidering the Cherokee is that they can be found for like 6-7 grand with reasonably low mileage (~100k), making my accounts very happy.

So how did you negotiate exactly?  You should be able to knock 10-15% off easily.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 22, 2015, 06:03:16 PM
Cheapness isn't instantaneous though ;). Sure you're gonna pay quite a bit more for a 4Runner but add in fewer repairs and less depreciation and it's probably gonna be about the same.

Considering the Cherokee was about half price or less, and the Cherokee is super simple compared to a more modern car, I'm not so sure about that. For example, all in, I've spent way less on my 1999 Explorer than the ~$15k it would cost for a newer Explorer, and it's not as if a newer, but still few years old Explorer is going to be trouble free. Not to mention the difference in cost of repairs (i.e. difference in complexity). And I didn't even buy it in particularly good condition.

Quote from: CJ on February 22, 2015, 05:38:27 PM
A base model Lexus GX470 would be ideal.  Nice interior, not much luxury.  It has leather seats, birds eye maple wood trim, and fantastic headlights.  The only complicated thing on them is the rear air suspension.  Aside from that, it's as simple as a 4Runner...because it IS a 4Runner.

I don't think the 4runner and land cruiser/LX are the same underneath. However I believe the 4Runner and the GX are based off the same thing.

Quote from: SVT_Power on February 22, 2015, 07:16:08 PM
I don't think the 4runner and land cruiser/LX are the same underneath. However I believe the 4Runner and the GX are based off the same thing.

Yeah, that sounds right from what I've read. Is your point that you don't think the GX has the air suspension?

EDIT: So the internet definitely says that the GX has the air suspension. So I guess I'm not sure what your point was?

Fancy suspension in an SUV (without $10k cash in reserve to fix it) = no bueno.

Quote from: Rupert on February 22, 2015, 09:23:15 PM
Fancy suspension in an SUV (without $10k cash in reserve to fix it) = no bueno.

Shit, just because I have 10 grand sitting around doesn't mean I want to spend it on an SUV suspension. So scratch those off the list.

It might not actually be $10k... But most complex suspension systems fail sooner than later and cost a lot to fix, or at least that's the impression I have.

Yeah I'd stay away from air suspension.

Quote from: SVT_Power on February 22, 2015, 07:16:08 PM
I don't think the 4runner and land cruiser/LX are the same underneath. However I believe the 4Runner and the GX are based off the same thing.

That's why I said the GX and 4Runner are the same.

Actually, the Lexus GX is not 4Runner based, it is a Toyota Prado with a bit of flair.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2015, 12:19:51 AM
Actually, the Lexus GX is not 4Runner based, it is a Toyota Prado with a bit of flair.

According to Wikipedia, the 4Runner is also based on the Prado, though I don't think it's as similar to the Prado as the GX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_4Runner#Fourth_generation_.28N210.3B_2002.E2.80.932009.29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_4Runner#Fourth_generation_.28N210.3B_2002.E2.80.932009.29)

The GX and Prado are the same thing.  The 4Runner is based off of that.  Therefore, the GX and 4Runner are the same.  That's how my brain works.

The 4Runner and Prado/GX are entirely different - different chassis/wheelbase, wholly unrelated sheet metal/glass, different suspension, etc. Just like the LX is a gussied up Land Cruiser and the RX is a gussied up Harrier, the GX is a gussied up Prado (i.e., 4Runner is not in the equation).

Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2015, 08:41:16 AM
The 4Runner and Prado/GX are entirely different - different chassis/wheelbase, wholly unrelated sheet metal/glass, different suspension, etc. Just like the LX is a gussied up Land Cruiser and the RX is a gussied up Harrier, the GX is a gussied up Prado (i.e., 4Runner is not in the equation).

No.

Everything I can find indicates that the 4Runner, FJ, Prado, GX, and Tacoma are all based on the LC120 chassis. Yes, the GX is really just a re-badging job, so is much closer to the Prado than the other ones. But the 4Runner does share a chassis and suspension with the GX and LWB Prado, with the same wheelbase. The rear air suspension was even optional on the 4Runner, apparently.

According to Toyota and Lexus websites the wheelbases are quite different - GX/Prado @ 112.2" vs. 4Runner @ 109.8" (= different chassis).

These are BOF rigs.  Changing wheelbase doesn't make them unrelated platforms any more than a short cab/ short bed Silverado vs an extended cab / long bed Silverado.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2015, 10:25:13 AM
According to Toyota and Lexus websites the wheelbases are quite different - GX/Prado @ 112.2" vs. 4Runner @ 109.8" (= different chassis).

I thought we were talking about the previous generations? Per Edmunds, both were at 109.8. Looks like the 2nd gen GX (and equivalent Prado) got stretched a bit.

Quote from: TBR on February 23, 2015, 11:46:33 AM
I thought we were talking about the previous generations? Per Edmunds, both were at 109.8. Looks like the 2nd gen GX (and equivalent Prado) got stretched a bit.

Yeah, that's what I was referring to.

Silverado incarnations however share glass and many body panels.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2015, 12:13:54 PM
Silverado incarnations however share glass and many body panels.

But they don't necessarily share as much with their GMC counterpart, or their Yukon/Tahoe cousins.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2015, 12:13:54 PM
Silverado incarnations however share glass and many body panels.

So different body panels = different chassis now? :confused:

All I know is GX = Prado not 4Runner.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 23, 2015, 12:44:27 PM
All I know is GX = Prado not 4Runner.

You know we're talking about the 2002-2009 vehicles, right? They're all the same platform.

Wikipedia comes in handy here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_4Runner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_4Runner)

Quote from: Rupert on February 22, 2015, 04:17:16 PM
I think I would avoid modern luxury SUVs-- seems like a lot to go wrong and do so expensively.

Check out that 4Runner, though!

Emailed the dealership - rebuilt title. Knew it was too good to be true.

Ugh, too bad.

It would be stupid to buy a pre-modded Cherokee, right? Especially since I don't really know what to look for in terms of quality mods?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&engineCode=6CLDR&maxPrice=10000&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BJEEP%5BCHER%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=CHER&photosOnlyActual=true&showcaseOwnerId=71953&makeCode1=JEEP&startYear=1981&engineCodes=6CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=100&listingId=392707198&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&engineCode=6CLDR&maxPrice=10000&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BJEEP%5BCHER%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=CHER&photosOnlyActual=true&showcaseOwnerId=71953&makeCode1=JEEP&startYear=1981&engineCodes=6CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=100&listingId=392707198&Log=0)

I'm starting to seriously think about this one. I could buy it tomorrow and not feel financially stretched at all. And then go hiking this weekend!

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&engineCode=6CLDR&maxPrice=10000&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BJEEP%5BCHER%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=CHER&photosOnlyActual=true&showcaseOwnerId=71953&makeCode1=JEEP&startYear=1981&engineCodes=6CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=100&listingId=389492505&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&engineCode=6CLDR&maxPrice=10000&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BJEEP%5BCHER%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=CHER&photosOnlyActual=true&showcaseOwnerId=71953&makeCode1=JEEP&startYear=1981&engineCodes=6CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=100&listingId=389492505&Log=0)

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 23, 2015, 07:47:25 PM
It would be stupid to buy a pre-modded Cherokee, right? Especially since I don't really know what to look for in terms of quality mods?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&engineCode=6CLDR&maxPrice=10000&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BJEEP%5BCHER%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=CHER&photosOnlyActual=true&showcaseOwnerId=71953&makeCode1=JEEP&startYear=1981&engineCodes=6CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=100&listingId=392707198&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&engineCode=6CLDR&maxPrice=10000&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BJEEP%5BCHER%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=CHER&photosOnlyActual=true&showcaseOwnerId=71953&makeCode1=JEEP&startYear=1981&engineCodes=6CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=100&listingId=392707198&Log=0)

Yes, that is a terrible terrible idea. No telling the quality of the work or the parts, and a significant reduction in the already terrible ride and handling for no material performance benefit (i.e. the stock Cherokee is going to be more than enough).

One thing about Cherokees in general-- they aren't very good at gravel and especially at washboard. They skitter around the road a lot.

Quote from: Rupert on February 23, 2015, 08:07:05 PM
One thing about Cherokees in general-- they aren't very good at gravel and especially at washboard. They skitter around the road a lot.

When I make a budget-conscious decision, as this would be, I'm okay with some shortfalls.

That's a big one, IMO, but YMMV, so proceed.

Quote from: Rupert on February 23, 2015, 08:33:24 PM
That's a big one, IMO, but YMMV, so proceed.

Is it that bad?

Eh, I probably wouldn't worry about it. Lots of people drive them all over those kinds of roads.

I'll say it again


Liberty?

Quote from: 2o6 on February 23, 2015, 09:33:55 PM
I'll say it again


Liberty?

Everything I've read about the Liberty seems very "meh" and it doesn't seem to have a great reliability record.

I'll say it again

Explorer

Mine has been rock solid and has taken me over some pretty rough terrain with no problems.

I'll say it again



Yeah, no, just buy what makes sense to you. You're on the right track.

(http://cdn.lamborghini.com/content/masterpieces/LM/L0223_1920x1080.jpg)

Quote from: SVT666 on February 23, 2015, 10:33:18 PM
I'll say it again

Explorer

Mine has been rock solid and has taken me over some pretty rough terrain with no problems.

My parents had a '03, which I assume is the previous gen to yours? I'll also say the Explorer is a solid choice, I did some stupid shit in that car and it held up without a single mechanical issue. Always felt like a solid car.

However, right around the 100k miles mark, something went wonky with the dashboard and the whole cluster had to be replaced - that was a pricey fix.

Quote from: SVT_Power on February 23, 2015, 11:37:09 PM
My parents had a '03, which I assume is the previous gen to yours? I'll also say the Explorer is a solid choice, I did some stupid shit in that car and it held up without a single mechanical issue. Always felt like a solid car.

However, right around the 100k miles mark, something went wonky with the dashboard and the whole cluster had to be replaced - that was a pricey fix.

Yeah, and that's the problem with buying cars around the 100k mark. Nearly every car performs well for the first 80k or so.

The Explorer is still definitely in consideration. They seem to be at the upper end of reliability, though you can still find people who have had major problems without looking too hard. But the Cherokee is just soooo cheap, and should be very dependable. :lol:

Maybe I missed something, but why are you assuming that a 15-year-old Cherokee will be reliable while you worry about a bunch of much newer Fords and Nissans?

On the other hand, if this is still available this weekend...

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&maxPrice=15000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1424787041000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&makeCode1=TOYOTA&startYear=2002&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=394045187&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&maxPrice=15000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1424787041000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&makeCode1=TOYOTA&startYear=2002&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=394045187&Log=0)

Quote from: ifcar on February 24, 2015, 07:11:21 AM
Maybe I missed something, but why are you assuming that a 15-year-old Cherokee will be reliable while you worry about a bunch of much newer Fords and Nissans?

The problem with the Xterra/Pathfinder/Frontier is that coolant can leak into the transmission, and if that happens, you'll basically eventually need a new transmission. It looks like the internet has figured out how to fix the problem before it occurs, but I don't think there's a good way of knowing if the problem previously occurred, and it's likely that someone fixed the coolant leak without fixing the underlying damage to the transmission, which can take awhile to fail. As capable as these cars are, there's a reason they're as cheap as they are. This is the reason.

Like I said, the Explorers seem to be pretty good overall, but still not as good as the 4Runner. It's not hard to find reviews from people online who have had major problems with their Explorers. Definitely fewer than most cars, but many more problems than 4Runners have had.

Cherokees are consistently reviewed as some of the most dependable cars on the road, and the fact that they're basically half the cost of an Explorer makes any potential repairs much easier to stomach.

Some older cars acquire a reputation for dependability that may not be entirely deserved. "My car is still on the road at 300,000 miles (though it needed lots of repairs to get there)" or "oh yeah, sure, well, THAT breaks, but what do you expect for something so old?"

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 23, 2015, 12:52:34 PM
You know we're talking about the 2002-2009 vehicles, right? They're all the same platform.

Hmmm. I see. Well, what with different body panels, glass, etc., they're still not really close to the same vehicle, and it's a stretch to even say one is related to the other, when compared against GX vs. Prado (which are basically the same).

I'm gonna agree with Rupert and ifcar here. A newer Nissan or Ford will be far more reliable/dependable than than a 15+ year old Cherokee first sold in 1984.

Review you'll read about 15+ year-old vehicle will probably be from dedicated fanboys. In the past I've known many that have owned the Cherokee, and in committing the sin of anecdote, they are troublesome to own for people who just want a vehicle to drive. The engine and transmission (built by Toyota actually) are solid but pretty much everything else (esp. cooling and electrical) is trouble. Sure it was refined throughout its production run but it's still a vehicle designed in the late '70s/early '80s.

As to Nissan, they're cheaper because they are generally considered to not as "good" as a Honda or Toyota but they are still good - much better on average than a Cherokee.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 24, 2015, 10:06:42 AM
As to Nissan, they're cheaper because they are generally considered to not as "good" as a Honda or Toyota but they are still good - much better on average than a Cherokee.

Unless I can find a way to guarantee that a particular example never encountered the coolant-in-transmission issue, I'm not going anywhere near them. It's a common and very expensive problem.

Based on the track record of friends and family who have owned Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep products over the past 15 years, "dependable" is not a word I'd attribute to them.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 24, 2015, 10:23:10 AM
Unless I can find a way to guarantee that a particular example never encountered the coolant-in-transmission issue, I'm not going anywhere near them. It's a common and very expensive problem.

I checked my area on AutoTrader - lots of M/T Xterras out there with under 100,000 miles and under $20k.

Quote from: GoCougs on February 24, 2015, 01:38:02 PM
I checked my area on AutoTrader - lots of M/T Xterras out there with under 100,000 miles and under $20k.

Haha - if my budget were 20k, this whole ordeal would be a lot easier!

Good point though - there's one MT in my area under the original $13k price point. Maybe I'll take a look this weekend if its still there.

Actually, I didn't want to drive that way today because traffic normally sucks, but everyone stayed home today due to a light dusting of snow this morning :rolleyes:, so maybe I'll go by after work today.

I have test driven Xterra! Well, two of them, actually.

The first one (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&modelCode1=XTERRA&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=54757618&startYear=1981&makeCode1=NISSAN&transmissionCode=MAN&transmissionCodes=MAN&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BNISSAN%5BXTERRA%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=392076829&Log=0) was a 2006 2WD manual for $7,999. I think it was a base model - lots of buttons that weren't actually buttons lol. Drove really well. Shifter was pretty good - didn't have to hunt for gears or anything. Good ride. Great engine - lots of pep... dare I say fun? Honestly, if this had been a 4x4, I'd probably be taking it by my mechanic tomorrow to get it checked out.

The second one (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&modelCode1=XTERRA&sortBy=distanceASC&showcaseOwnerId=54757618&startYear=1981&makeCode1=NISSAN&transmissionCode=MAN&transmissionCodes=MAN&searchRadius=25&maxPrice=13000&mmt=%5BNISSAN%5BXTERRA%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&listingId=393632951&Log=0) was a 2008 4WD manual Offroad Edition (Bilstein shocks, fog lamps, first aid kit, offroad rims and tires). Lots of the same as above. The ride was definitely softer, I'm assuming because of the shocks, and it was just slightly slower but still more than adequate. The first one's suspension was better for on-road driving, but otherwise I really liked this car. One cool feature (honestly not sure if stock or left in by the PO) - it had a pop-up Garmin mount just above the radio. Only real problem with it was that it very much smelled like the PO was a smoker - not sure how hard that'd be to clean out. If someone can convince me that it's not that bad, I might have to go take it for a longer test drive.

But... even if I don't buy that second one, I think I've found the answer. They're cheapish, newish, comfortable, have personality, and seem to be pretty reliable with the manual transmission. I might just have to wait around to get a good deal on a manual one. I also asked on an Xterra forum if there's a way of guaranteeing that the ATs haven't had the coolant leak problem, but no response yet.

EDIT: Fixed link for "The second one."

Didn't even know you could get the XTerra with 2wd. Figured they were all 4WD considering the model image  :huh:

Quote from: SVT_Power on February 24, 2015, 06:41:03 PM
Didn't even know you could get the XTerra with 2wd. Figured they were all 4WD considering the model image  :huh:

Yeah, it seems a bit odd, but I guess there were people who bought them for the image.

There are a handful of 2WD Wranglers floating around the world too, which seems even more silly.

Sweet. This thread has me thinking of going back to a dual vehicle household.

Getting smoke out will be a lot of work BTDT - new carpet, steam clean all cloth surfaces, and disassemble interior and scrub everywhere esp. interior panels.

Nice. Too bad about the auto trans, but you wanted a stick, anyway... :lol:

No way on the smokey car, though. That's a 100% immediate fail for me. My Explorer still smells like Mexican perfume from the previous owner sometimes.

The worst part about buying a smoker's car is the HVAC.  The smell never comes out of the HVAC system.  You can cover it up for a bit by spraying Lysol into the air intake at the base of the windshield , but it always comes back. Trust me, my Explorer is one of those vehicles. I've had it 5 years now and it wasn't until recently that I can go more than 8 months without emptying a can of Lysol into it. When we first got it, the dealership had done a good job of covering up the smell with the smell of automotive shampoo.  It was 2 weeks later that the smell started to appear and the battle began.  The dealership dickheads lied to us about the smoking thing and I couldn't take the truck back since I bought it in the US.

Have you guys ever tried an ozone generator? Reviews on them seem pretty good.

Nope. Explorer is too cheap to care.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 24, 2015, 09:08:37 PM
Have you guys ever tried an ozone generator? Reviews on them seem pretty good.

PLASMACLUSTER! Trep's favorite feature.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01900/Hammonds-Police-Ca_1900853i.jpg)

Quote from: Submariner on February 24, 2015, 09:47:10 PM
<good suggestion>

(http://image.trucktrend.com/f/features/consumer/163_1211_suzuki_trucks_and_suvs/40955435/suzuki-x-90-rear.jpg)

Quote from: Laconian on February 24, 2015, 09:39:55 PM
PLASMACLUSTER! Trep's favorite feature.

Oh man, whatever happened to that kid?

Quote from: Laconian on February 24, 2015, 09:39:55 PM
PLASMACLUSTER! Trep's favorite feature.

That's what Plasmacluster is?

Quote from: CALL_911 on February 24, 2015, 10:11:51 PM
That's what Plasmacluster is?

No the Plasmacluster is an "ionizer" style air filter. Ozone generators put ozone into the air, which react with things that smell and turn them into things that don't smell. Ozone is not exactly healthy for you though, so you wouldn't want it running all the time.

No, I get what an ozone generator does, but I always thought Plasmacluster was a special display or something for the Camry's climate control.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 24, 2015, 09:53:54 PM
Oh man, whatever happened to that kid?

I'm sure he's a multiple-Toureg owner now.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on February 24, 2015, 09:08:37 PM
Have you guys ever tried an ozone generator? Reviews on them seem pretty good.

Yes.  Worked for about 9 months or so, then the smell came back.  Lysol is cheaper.

Quote from: CALL_911 on February 24, 2015, 10:31:01 PM
No, I get what an ozone generator does, but I always thought Plasmacluster was a special display or something for the Camry's climate control.

Dumb brand name for an ionizer.

Any reason I shouldn't consider a vehicle that was registered out of the country? The low miles on this Explorer are... intriguing. There's a free link to the CarFax if you want to see specifically what I mean by registered out of the country... looks like it was a vehicle owned by a military family.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=8CLDR&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BFORD%5BEXPLOR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1425391253000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=EXPLOR&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=50757774&startYear=2006&makeCode1=FORD&engineCodes=8CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=393964679&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=8CLDR&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BFORD%5BEXPLOR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1425391253000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=EXPLOR&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=50757774&startYear=2006&makeCode1=FORD&engineCodes=8CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=393964679&Log=0)

Is that really a white interior?

Quote from: Rupert on March 03, 2015, 02:16:00 PM
Is that really a white interior?

I think it's a light tan. Not the same car, but this is what I found searching for "Camel" as is listed there:

(http://images.dealerrevs.com/gallery/photo.php?id=23617668)

Is that an autotragic shifter, or is the car just happy to see you?

Yeah, but the ladies love it.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 03, 2015, 03:43:09 PM
I think it's a light tan. Not the same car, but this is what I found searching for "Camel" as is listed there:

(http://images.dealerrevs.com/gallery/photo.php?id=23617668)

That's the colour of my Explorer's interior, though the seat colours are reversed in mine.  The bolsters are light and the seat is dark and my center stack is faux carbon fiber rather than the wood. Only problem with the colour is the steering wheel shows the wear really bad.  Other than that, the interior holds up really well.

At least it's not true white. Lighter colors show dirt more (so what), but it will also be a cooler interior after sitting in the hot sun all day while you're hiking.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 03, 2015, 08:19:25 AM
Any reason I shouldn't consider a vehicle that was registered out of the country? The low miles on this Explorer are... intriguing. There's a free link to the CarFax if you want to see specifically what I mean by registered out of the country... looks like it was a vehicle owned by a military family.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=8CLDR&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BFORD%5BEXPLOR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1425391253000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=EXPLOR&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=50757774&startYear=2006&makeCode1=FORD&engineCodes=8CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=393964679&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=8CLDR&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BFORD%5BEXPLOR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1425391253000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=EXPLOR&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=50757774&startYear=2006&makeCode1=FORD&engineCodes=8CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=393964679&Log=0)

Definitely military family. Looks like they bought it while they were in Germany through one of the programs that ship US-spec cars to servicemembers. ((friend bought a us-spec BMW while in Germany, it was built in the US then shipped to Germany.   :nutty: )

BUT that history just looks wacky, they moved back and forth alot?!?   (usually overseas tours are 3years if you take your family)

Quote from: AutobahnSHO on March 04, 2015, 09:12:29 AM
Definitely military family. Looks like they bought it while they were in Germany through one of the programs that ship US-spec cars to servicemembers. ((friend bought a us-spec BMW while in Germany, it was built in the US then shipped to Germany.   :nutty: )

BUT that history just looks wacky, they moved back and forth alot?!?   (usually overseas tours are 3years if you take your family)

To summarize for people who don't want to go look up the CarFax, this is what I can tell:

2005 - Shipped from Maryland, US to Germany
2006 - "Vehicle Purchase Reported" at GA DMV (note that Georgia otherwise doesn't appear on the report until 2014)
[not reported] - Moved from Germany to UK somewhere between 2005 and 2010
2010 - Shipped from UK to South Carolina, US
2011 - Shipped from South Carolina, US back to Germany
[not reported] - Shipped back to US somewhere between 2011 and Dec 2014
2014 - Titled in Georgia
2015 - Listed for sale

So if the tours were like 2006 - 2009 and 2011 - 2014, it doesn't look all that strange. The only weird part is that it has a 2006 "Vehicle purchase reported" record from GA, but I'm wondering if they just needed to provide a date to the GA DMV to get the title last year since it looks like 2014 was the first time it was given a US title.

The problem is that this car is like an hour and a half away from me, so not only would it be a pain to go check out to begin with, but I can't get it looked at by my normal mechanic until after I took it home (and I'm guessing that the dealership wouldn't let me do a 200 mile round trip just for a pre-purchase inspection, and I wouldn't really want to in case they find issues - at that point it'll be a whole day wasted).

That said, I could probably get a Ford dealership in the area to do a pre-purchase inspection on it before committing. It's a good price (though listed right at KBB value - I thought the low miles would bump up the KBB value) and the low mileage is attractive. I guess it couldn't hurt to email the dealership to get more information.

For those who have been playing along, I've saved three different AutoTrader searches:

Xterras with manual
Explorers
4Runners and FJ Cruisers

And on a side note, that FJ Cruiser I posted a few pages back is still for sale. I might go check it out this weekend (probably should have gone last Saturday to try and pressure them into an end-of-month sale, but oh well).

Good list. I'll be curious to know what you think of the FJ's interior space and window size.

Quote from: Rupert on March 04, 2015, 10:58:53 PM
Good list. I'll be curious to know what you think of the FJ's interior space and window size.

When I drove it, I absolutely fucking hated it.  The interior materials are absolute garbage and the windows are so small you can't see around the truck.  It looks cool on the outside and I really wanted to like it, but once I drove it, I hated it.

Quote from: SVT666 on March 05, 2015, 10:05:33 AM
When I drove it, I absolutely fucking hated it.  The interior materials are absolute garbage and the windows are so small you can't see around the truck.  It looks cool on the outside and I really wanted to like it, but once I drove it, I hated it.

Yeah, I don't have my heart set on it or anything, but I figure I might as well check one out before I rule them out completely. The spartan interior I can deal with (a lot of people say the same thing about the Xterra and I didn't have any problem with it), but the size and visibility might be a problem.

Jesus, how can someone hate a car?

The FJ Cruiser is fine and good and was available with M/T. I don't care for the looks and would opt for 4Runner though.

My only hesitation on the FJ is the interior size and the price.  Otherwise, they're pretty awesome vehicles.  :rockon:

Element was literally like double the interior volume and cheaper, that's why I went with one.  Looking back, I probably would have been happier with an FJ though.  Unfortunately, that back seat space kind of kills the utility of it though.

Quote from: MrH on March 05, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
Looking back, I probably would have been happier with an FJ though. 

I told you so

Quote from: MrH on March 05, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
My only hesitation on the FJ is the interior size and the price.  Otherwise, they're pretty awesome vehicles.  :rockon:

Element was literally like double the interior volume and cheaper, that's why I went with one.  Looking back, I probably would have been happier with an FJ though.  Unfortunately, that back seat space kind of kills the utility of it though.

Why does it kill the utility? You're driving the car solo 98% of the time, right? :huh:

Quote from: Laconian on March 05, 2015, 02:46:53 PM
Why does it kill the utility? You're driving the car solo 98% of the time, right? :huh:

What's the point of having two cars if neither can be used for road trips or carrying things?

The FJ can't be that bad, can it? Are your friends all 90%ile height?

Quote from: MrH on March 05, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
Unfortunately, that back seat space kind of kills the utility of it though.

The way I see it - if I'm using my gas and putting wear and tear on my vehicle, my friends don't get to complain about legroom. :lol:

But yeah, they aren't huge if you have the front seats all the way back. Luckily, I'm only 5'10" and like to sit slightly closer to the wheel than most people do.

(http://www.durafitcovers.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/FJ%20CRUISER.JPG)

Oh shit that is tiny. POS

Quote from: Laconian on March 05, 2015, 03:21:42 PM
The FJ can't be that bad, can it? Are your friends all 90%ile height?

Actually, they probably are.  I'm one of the shortest in my group of friends.  I'm 6'2".

Interesting. Apparently the manual FJ Cruisers have a full time 4WD system, where as the automatics are either 2WD or part-time 4WD that can be damaged by using it in full-grip situations.

The one I'm looking at has rear parking censors and a locking rear diff too. The only problem is that some of the 2007 and 2008 examples had an issue with part of the body cracking on the interior of the front fenders. I need to do some more research into that and take a real close look to make sure they're OK on this car.

Definitely going to try to go drive it tomorrow though.

I think you guys are exaggerating on calling the FJ small


It beats the brakes off a Wrangler, and is on par with a Cherokee.

Most of the FJ haterade is that it looks much larger outside than it really is.

I really dig them but unless I was driving on dirt every week, I think they are a waste..

I saw a nice new Cherokee yesterday so I built one online. Trailhawk w/ V6, black exterior and brown interior, decent options = $39k. :mask:

Those BOF IRS Explorers are actually pretty nice. Decent steering, good ride, pretty quiet, nice seats. Economy is abysmal with either engine though.

Jesus, are you guys giants or something? Rear of the FJ has plenty of space for normal people - it's the doors that are a bit of a PITA.

Quote from: GoCougs on March 06, 2015, 04:15:19 PM
Jesus, are you guys giants or something? Rear of the FJ has plenty of space for normal people - it's the doors that are a bit of a PITA.

Not a giant, but you must be tiny...

Quote from: MrH on March 05, 2015, 06:11:22 PM
Actually, they probably are.  I'm one of the shortest in my group of friends.  I'm 6'2".

Solution: Stop hanging out with mutants/professional basketball players. Make new, shorter friends. Buy car designed for normal humans.  :ohyeah:

Look at the size of that C pillar!

Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 05, 2015, 03:33:31 PM
(http://www.durafitcovers.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/FJ%20CRUISER.JPG)

In the FJ, it's called a C-wall.

Quote from: thewizard16 on March 06, 2015, 10:32:42 PM
Solution: Stop hanging out with mutants/professional basketball players. Make new, shorter friends. Buy car designed for normal humans.  :ohyeah:

Our club basketball team in college was pretty dominant though :lol:

Dat corn.

A healthy diet of milk and poptarts is the reason I'm the tallest in my family.

I am 5'10", which I believe is the actual average height of American men. It's actually pretty nice to be the exact height that everything is designed around.

Any reason I should consider a 2002 4Runner? I accidentally put the wrong year as my search limit and one popped up. Low miles and lighter than the 2003-2009, but a weaker engine (only 183hp/217lb-ft mated to a 4-speed) and still comes with the 4Runner mark-up. I'd be much better off with a newer Explorer, right?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&maxPrice=15000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5DFJCRUIS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1425740570000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&makeCode1=TOYOTA&startYear=2002&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=394798776&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&maxPrice=15000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BTOYOTA%5B4RUN%5B%5DFJCRUIS%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1425740570000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=4RUN&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=94609&makeCode1=TOYOTA&startYear=2002&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=394798776&Log=0)



Also, I didn't get a chance to check out the FJ. That dealership seems to be completely disorganized. The first time I went by, I didn't call ahead or anything, and I spent twenty minutes waiting around so that they could tell me that another salesperson took the keys to church with him, even though the car was on the lot. :confused: So I talked to someone around 10:30 AM on Saturday to make sure they had the keys. They took my number and said they'd text me when they found the keys. Finally got a call (not a text as they said?) around 2:30 PM from a different woman who said she had "Great news!" and I should call her back (was driving - didn't answer), without leaving any details. Then I was hungover on Sunday from a wedding Saturday night so I didn't feel like driving up. Maybe if it's still around this weekend I'll try again.

3rd gen is the best looking 4runner IMO.

Quote from: Lebowski on March 09, 2015, 08:48:47 AM
3rd gen is the best looking 4runner IMO.

I agree, but it seems like that's really the only reason to consider it.

Oh god. My 4Runner with the 5 speed is barely adequate. It would be a complete dog with the auto. I know that the 2002 has 33 more hp than mine, but with a 4 speed you're not going anywhere, especially since it weighs more.

Lebowski's right though, the 3rd gen facelifted 4Runner is the best looking of the bunch (although I'm still more partial to the pre facelift 2nd gen).

I like the 4th gen styling more than 3rd gen.

3rd gen are sweet but painfully slow plus they need a timing belt so unless the dealer provides a receipt/guarantee that it was changed you're gonna want to get it changed ($1,000+). 4th gen are far better vehicles.

Quote from: thecarnut on March 09, 2015, 09:59:12 AM
Oh god. My 4Runner with the 5 speed is barely adequate. It would be a complete dog with the auto. I know that the 2002 has 33 more hp than mine, but with a 4 speed you're not going anywhere, especially since it weighs more.

Lebowski's right though, the 3rd gen facelifted 4Runner is the best looking of the bunch (although I'm still more partial to the pre facelift 2nd gen).

Quote from: GoCougs on March 09, 2015, 10:29:49 AM
3rd gen are sweet but painfully slow plus they need a timing belt so unless the dealer provides a receipt/guarantee that it was changed you're gonna want to get it changed ($1,000+). 4th gen are far better vehicles.

Cool, that's all I needed to hear.

STRONG CANDIDATE LOCATED.

Fairly low miles. Local. In my price range. Dirty at the moment, but the dealership just got it in. I will be visiting this dealership before the week is up, methinks.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=8CLDR&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BFORD%5BEXPLOR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1425996340000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=EXPLOR&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=50757774&startYear=2006&makeCode1=FORD&engineCodes=8CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=395025698&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=8CLDR&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BFORD%5BEXPLOR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1425996340000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=EXPLOR&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=50757774&startYear=2006&makeCode1=FORD&engineCodes=8CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=395025698&Log=0)

I think you need a Bimmer M3.

Quote from: Laconian on March 10, 2015, 02:49:09 PM
I think you need a Bimmer M3.

lol - I think I first used this screen name when I was 15. My racecar driver/instructor uncle has one that I've always been fond of. I even drove it to my senior prom back in the day. If I hadn't fallen in love with convertibles, I'd probably have gotten an E46 M3 in lieu of the S2k. I even considered a Z4M roadster (same engine), but they were still a bit of our my price range at the time.

Why does there appear to be circles drawn around the passenger's corner of that Explorer?  Were they highlighting damage?

Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 10, 2015, 02:46:16 PM
STRONG CANDIDATE LOCATED.

Fairly low miles. Local. In my price range. Dirty at the moment, but the dealership just got it in. I will be visiting this dealership before the week is up, methinks.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=8CLDR&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BFORD%5BEXPLOR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1425996340000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=EXPLOR&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=50757774&startYear=2006&makeCode1=FORD&engineCodes=8CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=395025698&Log=0 (http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=30363&endYear=2016&photosOnly=true&engineCode=8CLDR&maxPrice=13000&showcaseListingId=0&pricesOnly=true&mmt=%5BFORD%5BEXPLOR%5B%5D%5D%5B%5D%5D&lastExec=1425996340000&vehicleStyleCodes=AWD4WD&modelCode1=EXPLOR&photosOnlyActual=true&sortBy=mileageASC&showcaseOwnerId=50757774&startYear=2006&makeCode1=FORD&engineCodes=8CLDR&maxMileage=150000&searchRadius=200&listingId=395025698&Log=0)

That's pricey for a 9 year old Explorer.

Quote from: SVT666 on March 10, 2015, 06:01:18 PM
That's pricey for a 9 year old Explorer.

Thinking about it, mine was 10 years old when I got it, it had 45 kmiles more, and it was $3500. It needed a little bit, though, and this one is a much better vehicle by default.

Quote from: MX793 on March 10, 2015, 04:03:02 PM
Why does there appear to be circles drawn around the passenger's corner of that Explorer?  Were they highlighting damage?

That's my guess. I don't mind - gives me an idea of where to look if I go check out the car. :lol:

Quote from: SVT666 on March 10, 2015, 06:01:18 PM
That's pricey for a 9 year old Explorer.

It's pretty consistent with similar vehicles in the area, and not too much higher than the average of four different used car value sites. Plus it's a 1 owner vehicle that's always been serviced by a Ford dealership (according to the CarFax - free to view from the AutoTrader page).

KBB: 13,466 (11,906 - 15,025)
Edmunds: 9,506 (I've yet to find an 06 or newer Explorer V8 with under 100k miles in my area for less than 10k, so not sure what they're basing this on)
Cars.com "Black Book": 10,250
NADA: 11,750

Average: 11,243

Quote from: BimmerM3 on March 11, 2015, 08:59:40 AM
That's my guess. I don't mind - gives me an idea of where to look if I go check out the car. :lol:

It's pretty consistent with similar vehicles in the area, and not too much higher than the average of four different used car value sites. Plus it's a 1 owner vehicle that's always been serviced by a Ford dealership (according to the CarFax - free to view from the AutoTrader page).

KBB: 13,466 (11,906 - 15,025)
Edmunds: 9,506 (I've yet to find an 06 or newer Explorer V8 with under 100k miles in my area for less than 10k, so not sure what they're basing this on)
Cars.com "Black Book": 10,250
NADA: 11,750

Average: 11,243

Interesting.  I bought my Explorer XLT when it was 3 years old with just 35,000 miles on it for $18K.  This just seems high to me.

Quote from: SVT666 on March 11, 2015, 09:57:58 AM
Interesting.  I bought my Explorer XLT when it was 3 years old with just 35,000 miles on it for $18K.  This just seems high to me.

I think it's just that they're aren't many proper 4x4s that haven't had major reliability problems. This is still MUCH cheaper than comparable 4Runners are listed as, especially with a documented dealership service history, and is even less than the manual Xterra I drove a few weeks ago. There are auto Xterras out there with similar mileage going for less, but those fall into the "have had major reliability problems" category.

The V6s tend to be a grand or two cheaper, but I drove a V6 and either the engine was too weak or the transmission timing was horrible, and the gas mileage was only marginally better.

I also haven't been keeping an eye on the used market as a whole, but it's possible that the entire market has gone up.

Finally got to test drive that Explorer. Drove well. Pretty clean interior (plus they hadn't finished detailing it yet). Heated leather seats, sunroof, built in navigation (which I could take or leave, but I like the big screen for the radio display), tow package, new tires. If it had the 3rd row, it'd be exactly the Explorer I want, but that's much more of a want than a need. It also has the cleanest CarFax report I've ever seen for a car that age - single owner, no incidents of any kind, and always maintained at a Ford dealership.

The best offer they gave me was just under $12,700 out the door. That makes the price before taxes and fees right around $11,200, which I think is pretty good based on other listings in the area. I'm gonna sleep on it before making a final decision, but I think I'm gonna get it checked out by my mechanic tomorrow and as long as there aren't any major issues, go ahead and pull the trigger.

Sounds great.

Cool

Not bad indeed.

NEW TIRE TIME.

I'm thinking I will BLIZZAKS on the current wheels for winter. Then come spring time, get a set of A/Ts on new wheels.

I was kind of hoping to keep the current tires for road trips just because they're basically brand new, but to make that even a little practical, I'd have to either swap them out with the BLIZZAKS every season or get a third set of wheels, which just seems silly.

What increases the expense is adding TPMS sensors to every set of wheels

For winter wheels, it can be a good idea to get a more narrow wheel and tire set, especially if you currently have relatively wide/sporty size on a lightweight vehicle.

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 05, 2015, 03:19:57 PM
What increases the expense is adding TPMS sensors to every set of wheels

For winter wheels, it can be a good idea to get a more narrow wheel and tire set, especially if you currently have relatively wide/sporty size on a lightweight vehicle.

The stock size is 235/65R18, and Explorer isn't exactly lightweight. Should I go narrower?

And yeah, TPMS is part of the reason I don't want to get new wheels yet. I don't quite have that much $$$ in my car stuff fund. But by spring I should be able to save plenty for tires + wheels including TPMS.

Quote from: BimmerM3 on October 05, 2015, 03:28:34 PM
The stock size is 235/65R18, and Explorer isn't exactly lightweight. Should I go narrower?

And yeah, TPMS is part of the reason I don't want to get new wheels yet. I don't quite have that much $$$ in my car stuff fund. But by spring I should be able to save plenty for tires + wheels including TPMS.

That size is probably fine, but you could see what other sploder guys do on their forum

Explorer's rear seats don't quite fold flat, so I'm going to build a platform so that I can sleep in the back of the Explorer for camping and road tripping.

The idea is to build it in two separate pieces - one for the entire width of the trunk area that I'll be able to leave in the car and still be able to use the full back seat. The second piece will go over the middle and passenger-side rear seats when they're folded to complete the sleeping platform, with a little bit of storage underneath too. The driver-side rear seat will still be unobstructed so that I can choose to use it as extra storage or just as a place to sit - it's quite roomy with the front seat all the way up, which I've conveniently set as the 2nd saved seat position.

The platform will be ~6" high in the trunk area to give a little room for storage underneath. I'm just going to use a plastic bin or two for storage, so no fancy built in drawers or anything. The other piece will be a little trickier since I'll probably need to build the front end to be supported by the rear floor instead of the back of the seat, but I'm not actually worried about that.

Anyway, I want to cover the platforms in some sort of fabric that's relatively close to the stock tan trunk carpet, to give it a cleaner look and to help cut down on rubbing and vibration against the interior. Any idea on where I could find that type of fabric?

Search "trunk fabric" in Google or on Amazon.  Plenty of options, but didn't see a tan option in a brief search, just blacks and grays.

Either Jo Ann Fabric, ebay, or google tan automotive carpet. Speaker cabinet carpet may work too. I've ordered some from Parts Express, but I think they only have black/gray.

I'll use gray if I have to but it'd be nice if it were relatively stock looking.

Should I build the frame out of 2x4s or just pieces of plywood? 2x4s would leave bigger gaps front to back, but would be wider left to right.

2x4s if you're gonna be sleeping on it.

Biscuit seems like pretty close to the right color.

If I order two yards, you think it'll come as a single, 80"x72" sheet? Because that would be ideal. I'd probably get three yards just to be safe.

http://www.upholsterysupplyonline.com/products/1655-Bisciut-Flexform-Carpet-80%22-Wide.html

EDIT:

Or this. More carpet less speaker cover.

http://www.upholsterysupplyonline.com/products/9029-Tan-72%22-Wide.html

Probably.

Satin rainbow cheetah sheets from wally world $20 and you'll be crushing pussy

Yeah, get something cool.  Tan is boring.

You're boring.

If you use 2x6s you'll have the right height by default. I would run them front to back, and cut them at a taper to level off the top where they go over the rear seats, then cut them where the rear seats bend up for removeability (keeping in mind that at 6" tall, the rear seats likely slope back enough to interfere if cut them too close). You could either run two or three located in from the edges, use 2x2s for cross pieces and 3/4 inch ply on top, or you could use two at the edges and use 2x4 cross pieces.

Few considerations might be that 6+3/4+carpet height is almost 7", so you might want to rip the 2x6s to 5" first, that 6" might not leave much room to sit up (I would measure 6" down from the roof and see what that's like), and like you kind of alluded to, the rear seats might not be stable enough to use to support the platform. Would be cool to just have the thing on a piano hinge so you could keep it in all in the back.

I ordered a storage bin that *crosses fingers* should fit well in underneath. So I'm going to wait until that arrives before I figure out exactly how tall it'll be.

Either way, I'll have plenty of room to sleep, but I won't be able to sit up fully, which is why I want to leave the driver-side seat clear.

Phase 1 complete.

(http://i.imgur.com/cB7DENS.png)

Nice.

I'm actually pretty amazed that the bins fit in there so perfectly. I was planning on using a bin on one side and then just having the other side be an open slot with whatever room was left over, but this is better.

EDIT: Thanks for the 2x6 suggestion, BTW. My original solution was gonna be waaaay more complicated.

that's going to be super awesome!

Quote from: BimmerM3 on May 02, 2017, 11:13:03 PM
I'm actually pretty amazed that the bins fit in there so perfectly. I was planning on using a bin on one side and then just having the other side be an open slot with whatever room was left over, but this is better.

EDIT: Thanks for the 2x6 suggestion, BTW. My original solution was gonna be waaaay more complicated.

Yeah, no prob.

I wish all my projects like that would work out that neatly. :lol:

Phase 2 complete.

I probably should have used actual plywood instead of MDF, but I got excited at Home Depot and bought the MDF before I really thought about it. If it's not strong enough or gets too messed up from moisture or whatever, it'll be pretty easy to replace. I'll also probably have to sand down the corners a little more if I actually end up carpeting it.

The only sorta issue at this point is that the plastic trim around the trunk is raised compared to the actual trunk floor, so I have to lift the platform slightly to get the bins in and out. Not a huge deal but kind of annoying. If only 2x6s were actually 2" x 6" - the extra half inch would solve the issue completely, I think.

(http://i.imgur.com/8nLgFyD.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/UL9gJdq.png)

Sand the corners down and be sure it doesn't get too damp and you'll be fine for a while. Sweet camping rig!

Ooo, MDF. Hmm. Spraying some lacquer on the top might extend the life of it?

What about screwing some rubber spacers into the edges of the 2x6es? You'd get a bit of extra height and it might keep things from clattering.

Yeah, just fir up the 2x6s to the right height. You can use a 2x4 that you rip to half inch strips or whatever the right height would be. Glue them on and then drill (to prevent splitting) and screw down in a few places.

MDF will soak up so much lacquer or polyurethane it's not even funny, especially on the edges.  Wrap it in duct tape.  :lol:

Quote from: Rupert on May 05, 2017, 12:17:57 AM
Yeah, just fir up the 2x6s to the right height. You can use a 2x4 that you rip to half inch strips or whatever the right height would be. Glue them on and then drill (to prevent splitting) and screw down in a few places.

This is a good idea but it would probably be easier to just use 1x2s rather than ripping down 2x4s.

I'll probably have enough MDF left over to just use that.

Yeah, all true.

Phase 3 complete - Explorer is ready to explore.

(http://i.imgur.com/T7IkPN5.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/WyZDElm.png)

Nice. 

Looks good! I'll be curious to know if there are any rattles after some miles on bumpy roads.

Really clean Exploder. Nice to see some people taking care of them.  :ohyeah:

Quote from: Rupert on May 27, 2017, 04:22:48 PM
Looks good! I'll be curious to know if there are any rattles after some miles on bumpy roads.

Might try putting some weatherstripping around the outside of the MDF platform if any of it contacts the stock interior bits.

Quote from: Rupert on May 27, 2017, 04:22:48 PM
Looks good! I'll be curious to know if there are any rattles after some miles on bumpy roads.

Quote from: Soup DeVille on May 27, 2017, 05:41:00 PM
Might try putting some weatherstripping around the outside of the MDF platform if any of it contacts the stock interior bits.

Both pieces are pretty snug against various interior pieces, so no issues so far. I might either carpet them at some point too.

Quote from: shp4man on May 27, 2017, 04:37:08 PM
Really clean Exploder. Nice to see some people taking care of them.  :ohyeah:

Thanks! Though most of the credit goes to the previous owner and dealership who cleaned it up. It was in amazing condition when I bought it.