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Lexus builds a hybrid luxury liner with more spark than bite

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Lexus isn't after high-income buyers with the 2008 Lexus LS 600h L.

"These people don't have income," one Lexus official told us about the target buyer for the LS 600h. "They have wealth. Money isn't the concern. Instead they're concerned about prestige, appearance and the statement their car makes about them."

In other words, they don't buy a Lexus. In fact, Lexus says the company's V8-powered LS 460 isn't even considered. "These people have a very short shopping list and we're not on it" is the way one Lexus executive put it. "The sedans they buy are the 12-cylinder Mercedes S600, BMW 760Li and Audi A8."

To compete, Lexus needed a new flagship, one with a six-figure price tag and more power. So the company has created the LS 600h L, a V8-powered hybrid sedan that is first and foremost a luxury liner. It's built to provide the world's wealthiest citizens the same sort of serene, seamless and abundant thrust they would get in a 12-cylinder ultraluxury sedan, only without resorting to all those additional cylinders.

To accomplish this, Lexus has combined its largest ever V8 with a supplementary electric motor and battery pack. The result is the most expensive Lexus ever built and the only car in the ultraluxury class that qualifies as a Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle (SULEV).

Dense-Pack Technology
At 202.8 inches, the LS 600h L is the same length as its near-twin LS 460 L, but it's not particularly vast compared to the Mercedes S600, which stretches out 205.0 inches. In addition to all the equipment that an LS 460 L carries, the hybrid adds all-wheel drive with a front differential and a Torsen center differential, an additional planetary gearset, two "motor generator" electric motors, a power inverter, a nickel-metal hydride battery, and a long tangle of wires and cables. All of which weighs a ton.

Well, not really a ton, but it all does add 887 pounds to the car, which crushed our scales to the tune of 5,219 pounds. That's 887 pounds more than an LS 460 L, and 344 pounds more than the curb weight Mercedes claims for the S600 V12. And all that weight mutes this jumbo hybrid's performance.

It also leaves this big sedan with very little trunk. Hey, all that stuff has to go somewhere, and accommodating the batteries and motors shrinks trunk space 35 percent from the LS 460's 18 cubic feet to just 11.7.

Bigger V8
To compensate for the weight increase, Lexus has added stroke to the all-aluminum 4.6-liter V8 it uses in the LS 460. It now displaces 5.0 liters, but the two engines are otherwise nearly identical, with double-overhead cams, 32 valves and variable valve-timing. Rated at 389 horsepower, nine more than the LS 460 V8, the engine feeds a continuously variable transmission that in turn is plumbed into the drivetrain, parallel with the electric motors.

With the V8 and the electric motors working together, there's a total (Lexus tells us) of 438 hp available to push around the LS 600h L. That's identical to BMW's claimed output for the 760Li's 6.0-liter V12, but behind the 510-hp Mercedes claims for the S600's 5.5-liter V12.

Fast, But Not Faster
The LS 600h L's hybrid system operates in three modes: "Hybrid," "Power" or "Snow." The default setting is "Hybrid," which is supposed to provide smooth operation. Meanwhile, "Power" sharpens accelerator response and "Snow" softens response to make acceleration on slippery surfaces more manageable.

Our best acceleration times in the preproduction test car came with the system set on "Power" and the transmission in Sport mode. The 0-to-60-mph sprint took 6.0 seconds and the quarter-mile went by in 14.3 seconds at 101 mph. For a big, heavy sedan, that's not bad, but the conventional LS 460 L is just as quick. It hits 60 mph in 5.9 seconds and rips through the quarter-mile in the same 14.3 seconds.

This isn't much of a surprise, since the LS 600h L and LS 460 L have similar power-to-weight ratios. Each of the hybrid's 438 ponies must lug 11.9 pounds, while each of the LS 460 L's carries 11.4, and the cheaper car doesn't have to overcome the parasitic drag inherent in an all-wheel-drive system.

Still Thirsty
Of course the compensating virtue of the hybrid drivetrain should be fuel economy. And since it will run solely on its battery at low speeds and shut off its V8 whenever the car comes to a stop, the LS 600h L does have an advantage in stop-and-go traffic. Lexus predicts that final EPA mileage ratings will have the hybrid LS rated at 20 mpg in the city compared to 18 mpg for the LS 460 L and 19 mpg for the shorter LS 460.

But on the highway, where the LS 600h L's larger V8 is always running ? always hauling around 887 additional pounds, and always churning all four wheels ? the advantage is clearly with the LS 460 models. Both the LS 460 and LS 460 L are rated by the EPA at a commendable 27 mpg on the highway while the LS 600h L (Lexus predicts), will carry a so-so 22 mpg rating on the highway.

Clearly what fuel economy benefits the LS 600h L might have depend on conditions. Driven like a New York City taxicab, the LS 600h L probably drinks less fuel than an LS 460 L. But on the open highway, the laws of physics work against it, and the conventional car will be more parsimonious.

Lavish, Luscious and Creamy
Like all the cars in this lofty class of transportation, the LS 600h L comes loaded with equipment ranging from power everything to a Mark Levinson sound system that seems to put the Duke Ellington Orchestra in the backseat. There's also a navigation system, abundant safety systems and enough tiny little switches strewn about the cockpit to intimidate a veteran pilot of a Boeing 747.

The seats are covered in buttery leather and they're all heated (the fronts are cooled, too). And if that's not enough, buyers can opt for the "Executive Class Seating Package" which turns the rear seat into a mobile office and massage center. Trouble is, there's virtually no amenity available on the LS 600h L that isn't also optional on the LS 460.

And of course, this is the car that parks itself.

Not a Sport Sedan
If the Lexus LS has been criticized for anything it's a lack of passion in its driving experience, and the same can be said for the LS 600h L. The machinations of the hybrid system, while subdued, add another layer of insulation between the driver and the road. As an automotive isolation chamber, the LS 600h is among the world's best, but this is not a sport sedan by any stretch of the imagination.

But it's not meant to be. It's responsive and it handles well, but even with the standard air suspension set in Sport mode this is a softly sprung car. And the electric power steering, while accurate, is numb despite being connected to the road by big 245/45R19 tires.

Those big tires, all-wheel drive and the optional antiroll system Lexus calls Active Power Stabilizer System do make the LS 600h L more athletic than an LS 460 L. It recorded 0.82g on our skid pad and snaked through our slalom at 62.6 mph. Neither performance is exactly in the sporting category, but they both represent improvements over the LS 460 L.

The larger brakes from the LS 460 L Touring package are also standard and stop this heavy sedan in just 120 feet, some 16 feet shorter than the LS 460 L which wore the standard brakes.

Tough To Justify
In a class where exclusivity counts, the $104,715 hybrid LS should rattle a few cages. Only 2,000 will be built this year for sale in the United States, and we have little doubt each will be sold quickly.

Still, this car is hard to justify on its merits. It's no quicker or more refined than its far cheaper, conventional brother, the LS 460 L, and it has a smaller trunk. Even its fuel economy advantage is conditional at best.

Truth be told, for those who want a socially responsible luxury car, the LS 600h L isn't even the best choice at the Lexus store. The slightly smaller GS 450h is also a hybrid, but uses a V6 instead of a V8 and consequently gets better fuel economy ? an EPA-rated 25 mpg in the city and 28 mpg on the highway. An argument can even be made that the base LS 460 is the "green" LS model. It's simpler to assemble, uses fewer energy-intensive parts, should be easier to recycle at the end of its life, and gets 19 mpg city and 27 mpg highway.

With the word "Hybrid" boldly displayed on each of its rear doors, the LS 600h L certainly makes a unique and strong statement in the luxury-car world. It's certainly the world's first politically correct luxury automobile, but we think it should be more than that.

Vehicle Tested:
2008 Lexus LS 600h Hybrid 4dr Sedan
MSRP of Test Vehicle: $111,715

What Works:
Beautiful and comfortable interior; amazingly quiet; elegant composure.

What Needs Work:
Heavy and feels it; not as fuel-efficient as you expect a hybrid to be; dinky trunk; not quick enough to be competition for a V12.

Bottom Line:
An interesting technological exercise.

any initial sales figures?

i'm all for choice. if i had the money, i'd have a 12 cylinder mercedes-benz s-class in my 8 car garage (my fantacy). however, if all of my neighbors in palm beach, fl, owned a new 'benz, i might very well go with the luxus to be distinct. i would worry about the significant decrease in truck size on the lwb lexus, though, due to rear aircondioned, reclining maybach-like seating.

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

I WANT ONE

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 21, 2007, 05:51:09 PM
:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

I WANT ONE

chrysler intrepid? must be from canada, where many, if not all, dodges are badged chryslers.

I'd never buy this car.  The added weight, complexity and money don't add up.

"Hard to Justify" from Edmunds talking about a Toyota product, is a scathing criticism.

Quote from: Atomic on April 21, 2007, 05:58:19 PM
chrysler intrepid? must be from canada, where many, if not all, dodges are badged chryslers.

Either that or I"m a ricer.


J/K. Toronto.

Quote from: Catman on April 21, 2007, 06:02:59 PM
I'd never buy this car.  The added weight, complexity and money don't add up.

With disadvantages like the cut trunk space and no better fuel economy, it's a horrible choice in this market.  Actually, all Lexus hybrids are.

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 21, 2007, 06:11:07 PM
Either that or I"m a ricer.


J/K. Toronto.

toronto? that explains it! a ricer :huh: ? isn't it you who has a parent that just aquired a brand new 2007 camry? guess you're both, dude  :evildude: !

Quote from: sandertheshark on April 21, 2007, 06:08:46 PM
"Hard to Justify" from Edmunds talking about a Toyota product, is a scathing criticism.

yeah they make a good point, though...there's no reason I would buy this over a 460L. if I wanted to save 2 mpg, I wouldn't be in the market for a $100k car

Yawn....boring. I would be so distracted by those pretty displays and lights all over. Anyway, this can't touch any mercedes, Audi, or BMW. Too boring and over--thought. Driving purity is more important than gizmos. Imagine this car breaking down, might as well scrap it right there if the electrics go down.

Man, that car looks so good.

Fuck this.

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 21, 2007, 05:51:09 PM
:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

I WANT ONE

are you serious?

So you could possibly save 2 mpg in town, and qualify SULEV, but return 5mpg worse on the highway, weigh more, be slower, have less trunkspace and the same interior as a LS460 L?



:wtf:

They wanted to compete with German V-12's?  Do they realize they are half a second behind the A8 and 760 in terms of 0-60, and nearly 2 seconds behind the S-600?

Granted, 0-60 times are not the most important aspect of a large luxury Saloon, but I assume that was the point of this addition of power (it clearly wasn't for economy)

Brilliant, Lexus.  :rolleyes:

Lexus really screwed up on this one. It's funny just how dumb it is.

Finally, a hybrid that breaks the mold. A hybrid that says "You've arrived." A hybrid that gets worse mileage than it's gasoline counterparts. It's just another first from Lexus. Lexus, the passionate pursuit of perfection.

Quote from: mazda6er on April 21, 2007, 10:51:13 PM
Finally, a hybrid that breaks the mold. A hybrid that says "You've arrived." A hybrid that gets worse mileage than it's gasoline counterparts. It's just another first from Lexus. Lexus, the passionate pursuit of perfection.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I wonder what the douchebag who speaks in their commercials is going to sound like talking about this one...

At least the car looks sweet, the back end looks awesome with that exhaust.

What a laughably pointless car.

Plus:  It's the ultimate luxury car, no doubt.

Minuses:  Trunk space, price, it isn't a Mercedes, acceleration, fuel economy, German factor, etc.

Seriously, if I ponied up $140k for an S600, what's the point of the LS600h?  Seriously?  It isn't like someone in this price range couldn't finance another $30k.

Quote from: JYODER240 on April 21, 2007, 08:06:41 PM
are you serious?

My uncle at one point wanted to swap the S550 for an LS460L, but I convinced him against it.

Quote from: the Teuton on April 22, 2007, 03:56:26 AM
Plus: hybrid badge to impress your trust-fund, fair-weather, faux-granola "friends"

Minuses:  everything

^ :praise:

It's a very nice car. It's also a very stupid idea. At that price range, I can't see the hybrid image being very valuable, especially since it isn't impressively more efficient, and it's not any quicker than the regular 460L. If they wanted to compete with the V12 ultra-lux sedans, they should have built a V12. They can afford it, and I'm willing to bet it would have gotten more attention from that crowd than this will.

Quote from: thewizard16 on April 22, 2007, 03:25:22 PM
It's a very nice car. It's also a very stupid idea. At that price range, I can't see the hybrid image being very valuable, especially since it isn't impressively more efficient, and it's not any quicker than the regular 460L. If they wanted to compete with the V12 ultra-lux sedans, they should have built a V12. They can afford it, and I'm willing to bet it would have gotten more attention from that crowd than this will.

Who knows?  The name "Hybrid" might make it a big image seller. 

"Oh, yes.  It's a Prius for the country club!"

Quote from: Raza ?link=topic=8718.msg425508#msg425508 date=1177284099
Who knows?? The name "Hybrid" might make it a big image seller.?

"Oh, yes.? It's a Prius for the country club!"

Maybe at your country club!

This is nothing more than a bragging exercise for the engineering department.  "Look at all we managed to cram into one vehicle and it WORKS!!"  Yet, according to Lexus, the first years run is already sold out.  What's that saying about a fool and his money.......

Nothing like being a magazine racer, but most likely your average exec (Mark Mullaly) will blow about $20k in options on that car.  So let's assume the OTD price will be something like $125k.  Your average Benz owner should be OTD for around $150k, I would imagine.  The Benz in real world driving should be good for about 12-15 mpg.  The Lexus will get 17-21ish, probably.  The Lexus has a claimed 0-60 time of 5.8 seconds, while we know that the Benz will do the same thing as quickly as a Ferrari F430.  Who's going to be happier with their car?  Answer honestly.

Quote from: the Teuton on April 22, 2007, 11:47:21 PM
Who's going to be happier with their car?? Answer honestly.

The dude who didn't spend $125 Grand on a Lexus.

Quote from: Raza  on April 21, 2007, 06:59:23 PM
With disadvantages like the cut trunk space and no better fuel economy, it's a horrible choice in this market.  Actually, all Lexus hybrids are.

The trunk space is the least of the problems of this car. The real problem is LOAD CAPACITY, which is a big fat ZERO.

In German tests, the standard LS460 was criticized for having a pathetic load capacity of 400 kg. That means four average adults of 80 kg each and maybe a woman's purse in the trunk.

The LS600h, which is heavier, will have a much lower load capacity. PATHETIC.

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 22, 2007, 07:34:17 AM
My uncle at one point wanted to swap the S550 for an LS460L, but I convinced him against it.

Good man.  :praise:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 23, 2007, 01:56:35 AM
The trunk space is the least of the problems of this car. The real problem is LOAD CAPACITY, which is a big fat ZERO.

In German tests, the standard LS460 was criticized for having a pathetic load capacity of 400 kg. That means four average adults of 80 kg each and maybe a woman's purse in the trunk.

The LS600h, which is heavier, will have a much lower load capacity. PATHETIC.

That's the exact same as my 14 year-old economy car.  I have hauled much more though so:

Subaru, 1.  Lexus, 0.  :rockon:

I am sorry, but this is probably the most retarded car/image statement I have ever seen.  Not only is it not faster than its cheaper cousin, it gets worse gas mileage on the highway as well.  They even include little earth logos on the main navigation and info screen to help with the deception..... :nono:

Toyota, if you are listening, get your sh*t together.  Thanks  :ohyeah:.

I find it interesting that the review of a car that is "hard to justify" has already been justified by the buyers with every single example built being sold out for 1 year already.

I can totally understand the enormous appeal of this car, it's got an X-factor and a coolness that a cookie cutter Mercedes or BMW simply cannot touch. 

The truth is, a Toyota Camry already provides everything you could really need in terms of sheer luxury ( in relation to quietness, smoothness, acceleration, etc).  Everything else that more expensive cars offer is just icing on the cake.  Most automakers have been putting on icing in the form of performance and sportiness.  Yet I find this paradoxical considering often sportiness and luxury don't go hand in hand.  Take the M3 for example.  BMW started with a well riding, quiet BMW 3 series and proceeded to tune all the compliance out of it until it rides just as harshly, and sounds just as loud as a sports car.

Does one really need their 5000+ pound luxury car to do 0-60 in 4 seconds?  Hardly.  Yet it seems like what most automakers seem to be offering on their top of the line luxury barges.

Does this Lexus offer icing that's more useful?  No, it's just as useless as 500+HP in your luxury barge.  But at least it's different and unqiue.  The fact that it's engine turns off at stop lights, the fact it is indeed a hybrid, the fact it's the hot new thing. Since all these various extras are just for self satisfaction, who cares if one is backed by 0-60 times and one isn't.

The fact is, as nonsensical as this Lexus seems, it's got one big thing going for it that no one else has.  They are the ONLY hybrid luxury vehicles on the market.   

Quote from: 565 on April 24, 2007, 12:01:27 AM
The fact is, as nonsensical as this Lexus seems, it's got one big thing going for it that no one else has.? They are the ONLY hybrid luxury vehicles on the market.? ?

.... Which doesn't matter unless you're one of those crazy environmentalist types.

Quote from: 850CSi on April 24, 2007, 12:27:07 AM
.... Which doesn't matter unless you're one of those crazy environmentalist types.

And 500HP doesn't matter unless you are one of those crazy horsepower types (which I admit to being).

Personally I don't give a crap about the enivronment seeing how I drive hugely polluting and gas guzzling cars and crazy over hors.  But the idea of environmental responsible driving is becoming more mainstream by the minute.

Quote from: the Teuton on April 23, 2007, 09:52:52 AM
That's the exact same as my 14 year-old economy car.? I have hauled much more though so:

Subaru, 1.? Lexus, 0.? :rockon:

:praise:

Quote from: 565 on April 24, 2007, 12:01:27 AM
I find it interesting that the review of a car that is "hard to justify" has already been justified by the buyers with every single example built being sold out for 1 year already.

If I recall correctly, this fact was announced by Lexus before they announced the official pricing. I bet there are quite a few buyers who have reconsidered as they are not willing to spend $100k for a "Lexus".

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 01:29:04 AM
If I recall correctly, this fact was announced by Lexus before they announced the official pricing. I bet there are quite a few buyers who have reconsidered as they are not willing to spend $100k for a "Lexus".

I doubt that will be much of a problem, people silly enough to spend this much money on a luxury hybrid aren't going to mind. With the right car, I think Lexus, at least in the US, can sell a six figure car. This car is nice enough interior wise perhaps, however it does not have the right combination of power/image(style)/being unique at all.

If the car was good enough, I'd pay $100k for a Lexus.

Quote from: thewizard16 on April 24, 2007, 01:40:54 AM
I doubt that will be much of a problem, people silly enough to spend this much money on a luxury hybrid aren't going to mind. With the right car, I think Lexus, at least in the US, can sell a six figure car. This car is nice enough interior wise perhaps, however it does not have the right combination of power/image(style)/being unique at all.

You could be right, but I always looked at Lexus customers as being extremely value-oriented. I honestly don't think an LS600h is worth $100k, just like every car here. It's the prestige factor and pricing that drives the price up.

Lexus has no prestige IMO, at least when compared to the Euro brands. Got to go to Munich now...

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 01:43:41 AM

You could be right, but I always looked at Lexus customers as being extremely value-oriented. I honestly don't think an LS600h is worth $100k, just like every car here. It's the prestige factor and pricing that drives the price up.

Lexus has no prestige IMO, at least when compared to the Euro brands. Got to go to Munich now...

Meh, Lexus isn't much cheaper on their normal models (IS, ES, GS, GX, RX), if any cheaper, than their european competitors. The only place they ever play the value card is the top-end car, and they can't even do that very much anymore. Lexus has been successful as being viewed as an "expensive luxury car" by the mainstream public (not you, or most people here) and that's about as much prestige as they need here for a while. They're compared to Mercedes and BMW, even by people who don't know what an Acura is or where an Audi comes from, so I think they could pull it off. History doesn't seem to be all that valuable here (I wouldn't buy an inferior, or even equal car, for more money just because of the brand history) when it comes to selling luxury cars. If it was, Cadillac would have never had trouble.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 01:43:41 AM

You could be right, but I always looked at Lexus customers as being extremely value-oriented. I honestly don't think an LS600h is worth $100k, just like every car here. It's the prestige factor and pricing that drives the price up.

Lexus has no prestige IMO, at least when compared to the Euro brands. Got to go to Munich now...

I was just there!

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 01:43:41 AM
Lexus has no prestige IMO, at least when compared to the Euro brands. Got to go to Munich now...[/size]

That may be true in Europe, but that is most definitely not true here in the US.  It is impossble to rank luxury brands for prestige, since different people have different opinions.

But...

This reminds me of a recent thread over at C&D, where that luxury institute or whatever tried to rank the brands in terms of prestige,

http://forums.caranddriver.com/auto/board/message?board.id=21&message.id=190218#M190218

I see you've made your opinions there as well about how "pathetic" Americans are if we think Lexus is as prestigious as Mercedes Benz and more prestigious than BMW.  But to be honest, it reflects pretty accurately what I see.  Prestige is simply a matter of opinion, we are not "pathetic" no matter which way we choose.

Quote from: 565 on April 24, 2007, 01:23:52 AM
And 500HP doesn't matter unless you are one of those crazy horsepower types (which I admit to being).

:praise:

I think it's pretty easy to rank luxury cars here, save for Jaguar, which is a wildcard.  To some, the Britishness sort of puts it higher, to others, the Ford connection sticks it towards the bottom of the list.  If I had to make a rough estimate (of what other people consider):

Mercedes
BMW
Jaguar
Lexus
Audi
Cadillac
Acura
Infiniti
Lincoln
Buick
Mercury

^I pretty much agree with that, but I think it's Jaguar's perceived poor reliability that has hurt its reputation more than anything. I doubt most people reallly know enough about cars to know about the Ford connection.

Quote from: thewizard16 on April 24, 2007, 01:50:57 AM
Meh, Lexus isn't much cheaper on their normal models (IS, ES, GS, GX, RX), if any cheaper, than their european competitors. The only place they ever play the value card is the top-end car, and they can't even do that very much anymore. Lexus has been successful as being viewed as an "expensive luxury car" by the mainstream public (not you, or most people here) and that's about as much prestige as they need here for a while. They're compared to Mercedes and BMW, even by people who don't know what an Acura is or where an Audi comes from, so I think they could pull it off. History doesn't seem to be all that valuable here (I wouldn't buy an inferior, or even equal car, for more money just because of the brand history) when it comes to selling luxury cars. If it was, Cadillac would have never had trouble.

I find that really sad that Lexus is perceived to be on the same level as BMW and especially Mercedes-Benz. Anyone who appreciates history and heritage will without doubt never even speak of Lexus as being comparable with Mercedes-Benz in that department, never in a million years. The Golden Era of cars is over, and Lexus was not in it, Mercedes practically dominated much of that era and hence rightfully deserves a place among the world's greatest automobile brands.

What has Lexus done in their short history when compared to Mercedes? Nothing. They've not participated in motorsports of any kind, except NASCAR I believe and immediately the Lexus fanboys are comparing Lexus "racing history"  to that of Mercedes-Benz. Here's a word to those guys, DOESN'T EVEN COMPARE AND NEVER WILL. Don't even get me started on the other fantastic events in the history of Mercedes-Benz. Lexus is just totally raped here.  :praise:

All Lexus has done was offer a superior car with more standard equipment and better value and that's it. This hardly makes them as prestigeous as Mercedes-Benz, much less the other Euro brands. I'd go as far and claim that brands like Fiat, Renault, Alfa Romeo, Lancia etc. have more prestige and pedigree than Lexus can ever hope to match. When you examine the history of these brands, their innovations, their contributions, their motorsport success, their classic cars etc., they just whoop Lexus in the ass thrice over. :ohyeah:


Like I said, I just don't see how Americans can  consider Lexus on par with these great European brands, especially since Lexus has done virtually nothing but copy Mercedes-Benz. Reliability and value aside, what has Lexus done?

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 11:08:05 AM
All Lexus has done was offer a superior car with more standard equipment and better value and that's it.

Oh, is that it?

You can't drive prestige, heritage, or pedigree, and none of those things prevent Lexus from building a good car.

Just because Benz and BMW have been doing it longer means they're the only ones who can? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Quote from: 565 on April 24, 2007, 07:10:54 AM
That may be true in Europe, but that is most definitely not true here in the US.  It is impossble to rank luxury brands for prestige, since different people have different opinions.

But...

This reminds me of a recent thread over at C&D, where that luxury institute or whatever tried to rank the brands in terms of prestige,

http://forums.caranddriver.com/auto/board/message?board.id=21&message.id=190218#M190218

I see you've made your opinions there as well about how "pathetic" Americans are if we think Lexus is as prestigious as Mercedes Benz and more prestigious than BMW.  But to be honest, it reflects pretty accurately what I see.  Prestige is simply a matter of opinion, we are not "pathetic" no matter which way we choose.

565,

I am not calling Americans "pathetic", but maybe my view of the situation is different because I consider myself a CAR ENTHUSIAST and I appreciate history and heritage and I like to also give credit where credit is due. I can't appreciate Lexus from a "brand prestige" POV because to me, they have none. There's more to a luxury car than rebadging Toyota's and selling them for less money (A fact aided by Japan's enormous purchasing of American Dollars to keep their currency artificially weak and make their products cheaper in the US market...).

If you read my reply to Wizard, I consider brands like Fiat, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Citroen, Renault, Peugeot, heck even Skoda to have more prestige than Lexus. Why? Because these companies started out with their own ideas and products and they had to work hard to get where they are. Lexus has had it so easy. Founded by Toyota in what? 1989? The early Lexus were rebadged Toyota's and the company basically aimed at being the Japanese Mercedes-Benz and heavily copied Mercedes-Benz philosophy and dare I say some styling cues. Passion? Where's the passion that Lexus so speaks off? They copied Mercedes-Benz and took some of their ideas or inventions and simply perfected them. Part of my reasoning is also in my response to Wizard, especially in regards to motorsport participation etc.

It has often been said that Lexus customers are not "enthusiasts". I think we can agree on that to a certain degree. As an enthusiast, I like to drive a car with a bit of history behind it from a brand that has respect and admiration on global scale. When I hop into my dad's Mercedes E320 or his 500SL, I feel that something from Benz & Cie. and Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft from the late 19th century has made it into this car. I feel that Mercedes-Benz built these cars with years of experienced gathered from that exact day in 1886 when Karl Benz invented the modern automobile. With a Lexus, you don't get that feeling. An enthusiast will note that Lexus' experience comes from Toyota, a brand that might be known for quality, but not for passionate cars (The older Celica's and older MR2's being an exception. I find the Supra's totally overrated street junk...).

Lexus are fine cars, but I would never ever consider them to be on the same level as Mercedes-Benz or BMW or Jaguar or Skoda or Fiat etc. from a prestige and brand image POV. Never. The old European brands have a high level of history when it comes to motorsport participation and success and innovation, classic cars, global appeal (most, not all) etc. Lexus has none of that and therefore cannot be considered on the same level as these brands in my book. I think that most enthusiasts will think along similar lines as me.

I also think Lexus has been so incredibly overrated in terms of prestige in America because of clueless people. Yep, you read that right. I've met some people who think the quiet engine of a Lexus LS430 makes the whole brand equal to the old and established European brands. I've met dumbasses who think the cheaper price and better equipment levels of a Lexus make the brand prestigeous. Sorry, that's all bullshit to me.

From an enthusiast standpoint, prestige comes from the general achievement of a brand over years. Lexus has shaken up the luxury market in North America, but they've not really done anything mindblowing when compared to the history of BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Aston Martin, heck Audi, Skoda, Fiat, Citroen etc. You name it. Hope you get what I am trying to say?  :ohyeah:

Wimmer, I don't know how much sympathy you're going to find for that point of view amongst an American audience. Generally speaking, I think we are more or less disgusted by European claims of "superior history" and "unrivaled prestige."

Quite frankly, it sounds like snobbish garbage.

Wimmer is just a troll. He won't buy a great car if it has the Lexus badge on it, but will buy absolute crap (C-class) because it has a Euro badge on it. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Tave on April 24, 2007, 11:28:10 AM
Oh, is that it?

You can't drive prestige, heritage, or pedigree, and none of those things prevent Lexus from building a good car.

Just because Benz and BMW have been doing it longer means they're the only ones who can? Doesn't make much sense to me.

We're talking about prestige here, and to me, BMW and Mercedes and brands like Fiat, Skoda, Citroen etc. have more prestige than Lexus can ever hope to achieve. Why? Because:

A) They've been around longer (during the Golden Era of cars)
B) They've brought about useful innovations
C) They've got global desireability (most, not all)
D) Long and glorious history in motorsport participation (one of the main features [dare I say "requirement'] for ANY luxury brand)
E) CLASSIC CARS (a testimony to the age of the brand)




Let's apply these criteria to Lexus here, shall we?

A) 1989...

B) Let's see, HYBRIDS? Showcased by Audi-VW in the mid 1980s, Toyota simply made it available to the masses. 8-speed automatic? Adding another cog to a 7-speed transmission is not innovation, it's an improvement. Self Parking? Been proposed and developed long before Lexus offered it in the LS. Ultra quiet V8 engines? Rolls Royce in the 1960s had engines that were considered the benchmark for low noise output.

C) Ask your average world citizen which car (a simple car, not even a luxury car) they would like to own and they will most likely say Mercedes-Benz, Rolls Royce, Bentley, BMW, Volkswagen or Toyota. Lexus? NOT EVEN ON THE LIST.

D) ZERO. Oh wait, they participated in NASCAR and won like a race or two, WOW! What a great motorsport history they have! NOT. Outside of America, nobody gives a damn about NASCAR. The real and accepted races which test the endurance of man and machine are Le Mans, Carrera Panamericana, Formula 1, Paris-Dakar (WRC). In how many of these is Lexus involved in? That's right, a big fat  Z E R O.

E) ZERO. The only Lexus I can think of which has the chance to become a classic is the original LS400, a car I actually like and thought had character of the ultra boring LS430 and even the LS460.



Now get my point? Lexus might be all that to people who have no clue about cars, but people who place emphasis on heritage know that a Lexus doesn't and will never compare prestige wise to some of the brands it competes against in North America or Europe.

Lexus makes fine cars with good quality and excellent value for money, but let's get real, they can't touch Mercedes-Benz etc. in terms of BRAND PRESTIGE. I don't give a shit what these "Brand Prestige Surveys" claim, because I know that once the housewife or the accountant is done with filling them out, they'll go back to whatever they do thinking how good their Lexus is because A) the engine is so super quiet and B) the car cost less and came better equipped than a comparable German car.

Quote from: Tave on April 24, 2007, 11:34:03 AM
Wimmer, I don't know how much sympathy you're going to find for that point of view amongst an American audience. Generally speaking, I think we are more or less disgusted by European claims of "superior history" and "unrivaled prestige."

I don't care about sympathy. I want people to see my point, my opinion of why I don't consider Lexus on the same level as the Europeans from an image POV. Technology wise, they're superior, but from a brand image POV, heck no.

Quote from: Tave on April 24, 2007, 11:34:03 AMQuite frankly, it sounds like snobbish garbage.

How does this sound snobbish? Do you get what I am trying to say? I'm saying that Lexus is not on the same level from a prestige POV.

Look, I even admit that Lexus makes a fine and superior and probably better car at the moment, but to me this still doesn't put them on the same level as the European brands because of the time frame and achievements. Look at the history of Mercedes-Benz, look at the hard times they went through. They went nearly bankrupt in the 1920s thanks to the Great Depression and hence Benz Cie. and Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft merged in 1926 to form Daimler-Benz. At the end of World War II, 75% of Daimler-Benz factories in Germany where bombed to hell, many of their top technicians were drafted into the army and died or were taken prisoner during the war - and yet the company managed to make a comeback in 1949. From then on, it was innovation, participation in motorsport etc. that defined what Mercedes-Benz is today. And this HISTORY, this HERITAGE is something Lexus can never match.

I don't see how this sounds snobbish. I am merely giving Mercedes-Benz the recognition in terms of their history and achivements. I cannot give the same recognition to Lexus, because Lexus has achieved nothing to me. For goodness sakes they were backed by Toyota - who has the cash funds. Lexus has had it easy, and therefore, I cannot and will not consider Lexus on the same level as Mercedes-Benz, or BMW, or Fiat or Citroen or Skoda from an image POV.

Get it?  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 11:41:47 AM
Wimmer is just a troll. He won't buy a great car if it has the Lexus badge on it, but will buy absolute crap (C-class) because it has a Euro badge on it. :rolleyes:

Screw you. :rolleyes:

What do you know about history of some of the worlds greatest brands? Tell me something about Alfa Romeo and their dominance in the early 1930s in European Motorsports? Tell me about Citroen and the gorgeous and innovative SM they produced together with Maserati. Enlighten me please about the achievements of brands like Skoda, Renault, Lancia etc. Let's hear it from your mouth, dipshit.

And maybe you should drive the Mercedes C-Class first, then talk. Troll.  :rolleyes:

The LS460 isn't a rebadge of any Toyota. Neither is the IS350 or the GS430/450h.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 11:47:17 AM

B) Let's see, HYBRIDS? Showcased by Audi-VW in the mid 1980s, Toyota simply made it available to the masses. 8-speed automatic? Adding another cog to a 7-speed transmission is not innovation, it's an improvement. Self Parking? Been proposed and developed long before Lexus offered it in the LS. Ultra quiet V8 engines? Rolls Royce in the 1960s had engines that were considered the benchmark for low noise output.

So you honestly did not care about MB coming out with a 7 speed? Innovation or improvement, Lexus did it first, so give them credit where credit is due.

QuoteD) ZERO. Oh wait, they participated in NASCAR and won like a race or two, WOW! What a great motorsport history they have! NOT. Outside of America, nobody gives a damn about NASCAR. The real and accepted races which test the endurance of man and machine are Le Mans, Carrera Panamericana, Formula 1, Paris-Dakar (WRC). In how many of these is Lexus involved in? That's right, a big fat Z E R O.

Better go tell those dummies at Lexus to stop racing these:
(http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2006-01/21685601.jpg)
huh? :rolleyes:
Those race in 24 hour series races. Tell me that doesn't test endurance. :rolleyes:

QuoteNow get my point? Lexus might be all that to people who have no clue about cars, but people who place emphasis on heritage know that a Lexus doesn't and will never compare prestige wise to some of the brands it competes against in North America or Europe.

Nope, still don't get your point.

QuoteLexus makes fine cars with good quality and excellent value for money, but let's get real, they can't touch Mercedes-Benz etc. in terms of BRAND PRESTIGE. I don't give a shit what these "Brand Prestige Surveys" claim, because I know that once the housewife or the accountant is done with filling them out, they'll go back to whatever they do thinking how good their Lexus is because A) the engine is so super quiet and B) the car cost less and came better equipped than a comparable German car.

So would you buy a turd if it had the MB badge on it because they have a better history? :rolleyes:
In that case, no new companies should ever be started because according to you, no one would buy it because of the brand history. :rolleyes:
And it's even harder for Lexus. They've had to fight against reputed and well known brands like BMW and MB. When MB was first started, they had no competition at all! The fact that Lexus has suceeded shows that people DON'T care about brand history and that Lexus DOES make good cars.
Face it Wimmer, if the LS600h was made by Mercedes, you'd be orgasming over it right now, saying it has the perfect balance of economy and performance coupled to the world's first 8 speed transmission. Because it has a Lexus badge, you're hating it. :rolleyes:
Nice "automotive enthusiast" you are. :rolleyes:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 11:47:17 AM
Lexus makes fine cars with good quality and excellent value for money, but let's get real, they can't touch Mercedes-Benz etc. in terms of BRAND PRESTIGE. I don't give a shit what these "Brand Prestige Surveys" claim, because I know that once the housewife or the accountant is done with filling them out, they'll go back to whatever they do thinking how good their Lexus is because A) the engine is so super quiet and B) the car cost less and came better equipped than a comparable German car.

that's all that matters, really. you can't seriously think that any significant portion of Mercedes owners bought their C-class to make them feel like Stirling Moss in the Mille Miglia while they sit in traffic.

for what their average buyers use them for, Lexus has proven to be just as good as Mercedes. they don't give a flying crap about pedigree, etc.

Sorry Wims; I'm against your argument here, I'm just too ired to write out a novel like these guys are.

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 24, 2007, 11:59:23 AM
The LS460 isn't a rebadge of any Toyota.

I never said it was, but the early LS and Lexus' were - and to any enthusiast this is not a good sign because it shows DEPENDANCE on a mother brand: Toyota in this case.

And yes, Lexus has recently started coming out with their own designs, but let's look at the facts here. I can never consider Lexus a true luxury brand because they started out as Toyota's with leather and have done nothing really amazing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why Lexus has done well in the US.

A) Good marketing...
B) Cheaper prices, more standard features (many of them useless gimmicks to get clueless people excited)...
C) JD Power and CR asskissing helps too...

Let's not forget that Lexus sales in the US are heavily dependant on the Toyota Harrier...I mean, uh, Lexus RX! The car of choice for a soccer mom or a daddy's girl who thinks this car is all that. I think 60% of all Lexus sold in the US were RX SUVs closely followed by the ES. If you look at Lexus sedan sales, it's not as impressive as some people make it out to be. And even if they outsell their German competitors, they're cheaper and that is a major reason for their success.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 11:58:39 AM

Screw you. :rolleyes:

What do you know about history of some of the worlds greatest brands? Tell me something about Alfa Romeo and their dominance in the early 1930s in European Motorsports? Tell me about Citroen and the gorgeous and innovative SM they produced together with Maserati. Enlighten me please about the achievements of brands like Skoda, Renault, Lancia etc. Let's hear it from your mouth, dipshit.

And maybe you should drive the Mercedes C-Class first, then talk. Troll. :rolleyes:

Know what? I don't give a shit about prestige or what some company did 80 years ago. How is that at all relavant to what they're producing today?
If i HONESTLY thought a Chinese car was better than its competition, that's where my money's going. Not to some other car because it has a certain badge or has history. :rolleyes:
I don't know and don't care about what a certain company raced in or won what. Seriously, those race cars have nothing to do with the company's production cars, and other than for entertainment, i couldn't care less about racing either. If you seriously think a company's race car is a reflection of their production cars, you've got some serious problems.
I'm the dipshit? You are, Wimmer. Every Lexus thread you post in you spew anti-Lexus or anti-Toyota bullshit. I don't like Lexus either, they don't produce the kinds of cars that i like, but i appreciate what they do too.

... This thread went downhill really fast...

It's a Lexus thread and Wimmer came in here. What do you expect?

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 12:00:59 PM
So you honestly did not care about MB coming out with a 7 speed? Innovation or improvement, Lexus did it first, so give them credit where credit is due.

When Mercedes came out with the 7Gtronic, what did I do? Did I go around the forums screaming: "Look at this marvelous innovation from the greatest company on the planet! Yay!" Did I do that? NO. I said nothing, because I know that adding another cog is not an innovation at all, it's an improvement. I'm no fanboy.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 12:00:59 PMBetter go tell those dummies at Lexus to stop racing these:
(http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2006-01/21685601.jpg)
huh? :rolleyes:
Those race in 24 hour series races. Tell me that doesn't test endurance. :rolleyes:

WHAT'S THAT? A NASCAR Lexus racecar? The day Lexus participates in Formula 1, Le Mans, Carrera Panamericana, Paris-Dakar etc., you ring me up, ok? Mercedes doesn't officially participate in the Paris-Dakar Rally, and neither does BMW. Yet you have a group of enthusiasts racing with a modified ML350 from Mercedes and a X3 3.0i from BMW. It's good advertising.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 12:00:59 PMNope, still don't get your point.
So would you buy a turd if it had the MB badge on it because they have a better history? :rolleyes:

That's a pretty dumb question. The issue at hand is brand prestige, and how some clueless people with zero knowledge of history think Lexus is just as prestigeous as Mercedes. Total BS if you ask me. I've said and admitted it often enough, Lexus is on the same level from a technology POV, but from an image POV, no chance in hell. The achievements of Mercedes or other European brands totally whoop Lexus and Toyota as well. Toyota really has done nothing innovative from a technological POV. Toyota simply improved production methods and introduced the JIT and Kaizen philosophy's. That's it.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 12:00:59 PMIn that case, no new companies should ever be started because according to you, no one would buy it because of the brand history. :rolleyes:
And it's even harder for Lexus. They've had to fight against reputed and well known brands like BMW and MB. When MB was first started, they had no competition at all! The fact that Lexus has suceeded shows that people DON'T care about brand history and that Lexus DOES make good cars.

You are completely misunderstanding me. I have nothing against Lexus being a challenging competitor to the German brands. My problem with Lexus is that EVERYONE is claiming that they're on the same level as Mercedes-Benz and above BMW from an IMAGE point of view - which to me is total bullshit because the history of Lexus is nothing when compared to the achivements of BMW or Mercedes.

There are many assholes out there who keep saying this gay piece of shit quote:

"It took the Germans over 100 years to get where they are, and it only took Lexus 18 years to get where they are."

You know what bugs me about this totally retarded gay ass quote? You figure it out. It's so incredibly stupid and gay.

And yes, some people don't care about brand history, and that's fine. What's not fine is that those same people consider Lexus on the same level as Mercedes in terms of BRAND PRESTIGE and IMAGE, and that's what bugs me, because it simply isn't true.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 12:00:59 PMFace it Wimmer, if the LS600h was made by Mercedes, you'd be orgasming over it right now, saying it has the perfect balance of economy and performance coupled to the world's first 8 speed transmission. Because it has a Lexus badge, you're hating it. :rolleyes:
Nice "automotive enthusiast" you are. :rolleyes:

Why would I orgasm over an LS600h? I thought that thing get's trashed by its cheaper LS460 stablemate in fuel economy and performance? I don't even orgasm over an S-Class. I like the S-Class, but I'd never get one and if I did, I'd get an S320 CDI because to me that is the perfect S-Class when it comes to a "perfect balance of economy and performance coupled to the world's first 7-speed automatic transmission".

Face it, Rag, if Mercedes made such a car, they'd first of all make sure that you have a decent LOAD CAPACITY and don't need to order a taxi to transport your luggage behind your LS600h. The fact that the standard LS460 has such a pathetic load capacity shows that Lexus isn't perfect and that someone at Lexus didn't think things out very well. Or maybe this car was designed solely for America and maybe Americans don't use their LS's to travel long distances or cross country with the family. I don't know.  :huh:

Fact is, both the LS460 and LS600h have a totally crap load capacity, poor brakes (LS460) and most magazines have not been able to achieve the claimed 0-60 times. What does that mean? The LS is a POS? Lexus screwed up? Edmunds is crap? Car and Driver has sissy testdrivers who can't get an automatic 8-speed LS to rock to 60 in what, 5.6 seconds? I don't know and I don't care. Lexus knows it doesn't have the heritage to compete with the Germans, so they dazzle their customers with their technology. They add self-parking, an 8-speed automatic, a condom dispenser, I don't know what else, but it all sounds "cool"  to their customers and the fact that it's standard and "free" makes the cars even more appealing. That's another way how Lexus has won over customers, but it still doesn't put them on the same level as Mercedes from an image POV.

I respect Lexus, but hey, from an image POV, they're NOT on the same level as Mercedes or other European brands, that's all I am saying. And just because it has a Lexus badge, I hate it? Huh? I've said it before that I like the GS and the current LS, but the Lexus brand as a whole is not and should not be put together with Mercedes-Benz from a prestige POV. That's what I am saying. Don't turn this shit around.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 11:55:39 AM
I don't care about sympathy. I want people to see my point, my opinion of why I don't consider Lexus on the same level as the Europeans from an image POV. Technology wise, they're superior, but from a brand image POV, heck no.


How does this sound snobbish? Do you get what I am trying to say? I'm saying that Lexus is not on the same level from a prestige POV.

Look, I even admit that Lexus makes a fine and superior and probably better car at the moment, but to me this still doesn't put them on the same level as the European brands because of the time frame and achievements. Look at the history of Mercedes-Benz, look at the hard times they went through. They went nearly bankrupt in the 1920s thanks to the Great Depression and hence Benz Cie. and Daimler Motoren Gesellschaft merged in 1926 to form Daimler-Benz. At the end of World War II, 75% of Daimler-Benz factories in Germany where bombed to hell, many of their top technicians were drafted into the army and died or were taken prisoner during the war - and yet the company managed to make a comeback in 1949. From then on, it was innovation, participation in motorsport etc. that defined what Mercedes-Benz is today. And this HISTORY, this HERITAGE is something Lexus can never match.

I don't see how this sounds snobbish. I am merely giving Mercedes-Benz the recognition in terms of their history and achivements. I cannot give the same recognition to Lexus, because Lexus has achieved nothing to me. For goodness sakes they were backed by Toyota - who has the cash funds. Lexus has had it easy, and therefore, I cannot and will not consider Lexus on the same level as Mercedes-Benz, or BMW, or Fiat or Citroen or Skoda from an image POV.

Get it?? :rolleyes:

I think you misunderstood me; I didn't mean to belittle your argument.

I was pointing out that an American audience isn't going to look at the situation that way. To us, it sounds like aristocratic nonsense. It's a cultural thing, we don't give social precedence to "established European dynasties." We're more utilitarian than that.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 12:25:35 PM
I'm no fanboy

:confused:

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 12:06:49 PM
Know what? I don't give a shit about prestige or what some company did 80 years ago. How is that at all relavant to what they're producing today?

I'm not asking you to care, I'm asking you to use your God damn brain and read what the hell I am saying. I think I've expressed myself clearly enough. I've stated that the history and achievements behind a company like Mercedes-Benz are untouchable by Lexus, no matter what. The history behind Mercedes-Benz is one of PASSION and EMOTIONS. Lexus? ZERO PASSION. Created by Toyota etc. Where's the passion there? There's none. Toyota simply saw Lexus as a means of taking away some customers from the European luxury brands by means of cheaper prices initially. That's it. No passion whatsoever. The Toyota Celsior was a Mercedes W140 S-Class CLONE. Again, no passion. Or maybe the passionate pursuit of imitation would sound better?  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 12:06:49 PM
I don't know and don't care about what a certain company raced in or won what. Seriously, those race cars have nothing to do with the company's production cars, and other than for entertainment, i couldn't care less about racing either. If you seriously think a company's race car is a reflection of their production cars, you've got some serious problems.

These races, past and present, have everything to do with a company's production cars. Motorsports are some of the most demanding conditions any car can face. A lot of innovation is produced by participating in motorsports and a lot of this innovation is then used in production cars. Motorsport also enhances a company's prestige, especially if they're successful like Mercedes or BMW or Bentley or Alfa Romeo or Lancia etc. were.

Look at Toyota. Is their participation in F1 doing them any good? They're the laughing stalk of F1. Ralf Schumacher even criticized the Toyota F1 Management for lacking the experience. Guess what? The Toyota F1 car is also very unreliable according to an ADAC report I read a few weeks ago. Why does this not make it into the press? Toyota could use a little shake up in F1.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 12:06:49 PM
I'm the dipshit? You are, Wimmer. Every Lexus thread you post in you spew anti-Lexus or anti-Toyota bullshit. I don't like Lexus either, they don't produce the kinds of cars that i like, but i appreciate what they do too.

Yes you are a dipshit. It already starts out with your demented perception that RWD > FWD. Here's my question. WHAT THE FUCK? FWD has it's advantages, especially in the snow or in economy cars where weight-saving is an important issue. Some of the greatest classics the world has ever seen were FWD. Want me to name a few? Gladly.

The 1934 Citroen Traction Avant was one of the BEST-HANDLING and QUICKEST FWD cars in its day. Even the invading German Army was impressed with the car that many were used by the Germans themselves. This car was such a smash hit, production continued well into the late 1950s.

The 1939 DKW Front Luxus Sport, one of the first German FWD cars available to the masses at a good price with good performance and handling. Only the advent of World War II doomed it.

It's fair to say that the Honda Civic is a pretty sweet car, despite the FWD setup, even with a bit of extra power, the Civic still combines good performance with economy and much more.

Quote from: Tave on April 24, 2007, 11:28:10 AM
Oh, is that it?

You can't drive prestige, heritage, or pedigree, and none of those things prevent Lexus from building a good car.

Just because Benz and BMW have been doing it longer means they're the only ones who can? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I think he's right.  Prestige does come from heritage.  Being new in the game always leaves you at a disadvantage.  It's why Volkswagen bought Bugatti instead of making up a new brand for its ultra GT.  It's why Mercedes resurrected Maybach for its ultra luxury sedan.  It's why VW and BMW bought Bentley and Rolls Royce.  Lexus built its reputation by offering new value at a time when the luxury market had grown complacent.  But to some, it will never be prestigious as brands with history.  If Cadillac hadn't had such a long stretch of rubbishness, I'd have put them higher than Lexus.  To many in America, I'm sure it still is higher in prestige than Lexus. 

Hell, James May said it about Pagani and Lamborghini and all the "upstart" sports car makers; they'll never quite be the same as a Ferrari, since Ferrari is older and sparked it all. 

And quality often has little to do with prestige.  For decades Mercedes and BMW put out better cars than Rolls Royce and Bentley. 

Quote from: Tave on April 24, 2007, 12:31:44 PM
I think you misunderstood me; I didn't mean to belittle your argument.

I was pointing out that an American audience isn't going to look at the situation that way. To us, it sounds like aristocratic nonsense. It's a cultural thing, we don't give social precedence to "established European dynasties." We're more utilitarian than that.

I understand that. Most people are not car enthusiast and hence they don't care about history etc. And I do find that sad and frankly unfair to all those other great brands out there aside from Mercedes-Benz. Lexus get's all the recognition for literally copying and stealing Mercedes-Benz philosophy with a bit of their own thrown in. I find that very sad.  :frown:

Quote from: Raza  on April 24, 2007, 12:39:43 PM
I think he's right.  Prestige does come from heritage.  Being new in the game always leaves you at a disadvantage.  It's why Volkswagen bought Bugatti instead of making up a new brand for its ultra GT.  It's why Mercedes resurrected Maybach for its ultra luxury sedan.  It's why VW and BMW bought Bentley and Rolls Royce.  Lexus built its reputation by offering new value at a time when the luxury market had grown complacent.  But to some, it will never be prestigious as brands with history.  If Cadillac hadn't had such a long stretch of rubbishness, I'd have put them higher than Lexus.  To many in America, I'm sure it still is higher in prestige than Lexus. 

Hell, James May said it about Pagani and Lamborghini and all the "upstart" sports car makers; they'll never quite be the same as a Ferrari, since Ferrari is older and sparked it all. 

And quality often has little to do with prestige.  For decades Mercedes and BMW put out better cars than Rolls Royce and Bentley. 

Thanks for backing me up and a great post too!

Agree with the red...  :ohyeah:

Quote from: 565 on April 24, 2007, 12:33:52 PM
:confused:

You read that right...  :rolleyes:

Quote from: 850CSi on April 21, 2007, 11:18:03 PM
I wonder what the douchebag who speaks in their commercials is going to sound like talking about this one...

Available     at your Lexus dealer.   
The newest Lexus    that does nothing well.   
But   at this kind of money      you won't care.    It will still impress the neighbors

The all new Lexus    Driveway jewelry    elevated    to a higher level.   

Quote from: etypeJohn on April 24, 2007, 12:47:27 PM
Available     at your Lexus dealer.   
The newest Lexus    that does nothing well.   
But   at this kind of money      you won't care.    It will still impress the neighbors

The all new Lexus    Driveway jewelry    elevated    to a higher level.   

I think we can put that into a jingle.  Let me grab my guitar!

Quote from: Vinsanity on April 24, 2007, 12:01:43 PM
that's all that matters, really. you can't seriously think that any significant portion of Mercedes owners bought their C-class to make them feel like Stirling Moss in the Mille Miglia while they sit in traffic.

I don't expect that. But I don't understand what's so hard about this simple statement, which I have backed up with a passion.


PRESTIGE

Mercedes > Lexus


TECHNOLOGY

Mercedes = Lexus , Lexus = Mercedes

Quote from: Vinsanity on April 24, 2007, 12:01:43 PM
for what their average buyers use them for, Lexus has proven to be just as good as Mercedes. they don't give a flying crap about pedigree, etc.

That's the sad part. I don't care about them not caring for history - but once they ignore the history part, then it all falls to pieces because Lexus history is nothing when compared to the GLORIOUS history of Mercedes-Benz. This great history that Mercedes-Benz has (or BMW etc.) makes them prestigeous and this history is something Lexus can never touch or hope to match. Never.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 12:43:10 PM
I understand that. Most people are not car enthusiast and hence they don't care about history etc. And I do find that sad and frankly unfair to all those other great brands out there aside from Mercedes-Benz. Lexus get's all the recognition for literally copying and stealing Mercedes-Benz philosophy with a bit of their own thrown in. I find that very sad.? :frown:

I think Europeans can afford to be more interested in automotive history because all their great tracks and races are within reach. It's just physically infeasible for a lot of Americans to see a race in person.

Quote from: Tave on April 24, 2007, 12:50:36 PM
I think Europeans can afford to be more interested in automotive history because all their great tracks and races are within reach. It's just physically infeasible for a lot of Americans to see a race in person.

True.

We Europeans also look upon brands as prestigeous based on their history and how long they've been around. A base model C180 Kompressor is just as prestigeous as a fully loaded C350, the difference is only in the degree of luxury. What makes it prestigeous? The badge. Simple.  :ohyeah:

And I'll be posting over 650 pictures of a European Classic Car show soon. I hope you can see why I am so passionate about Mercedes and how irked I get when people claim Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes from an image and brand prestige POV, because it simply is not true. I think I lost my temper here too, sorry to all fo you if I have offended anyone. I guess this shows how passionate I am about my brand (guess I am a passionate Benz enthusiast  :devil:).  ;)

Bring on the pictures man. Your Cars from London series was what got me interested in reading the C&D boards.

Quote from: Tave on April 24, 2007, 12:58:55 PM
Bring on the pictures man. Your Cars from London series was what got me interested in reading the C&D boards.

Gimme 20-30 minutes!  :ohyeah:

Quote from: Tave on April 24, 2007, 12:58:55 PM
Bring on the pictures man. Your Cars from London series was what got me interested in reading the C&D boards.

Me too. :rockon:

The idea of prestige is entirely marketing-driven. I would argue that the buyers of a Lexus feel that their car has just as much 'prestige' as the buyers of a Mercedes perceive their own car, irrespective of the opinions of those on this forum. It has been proven many a time that the buyers of a given brand perceive their brand equally to that of buyers of another brand - Lexus buyers, on average, would see their brand as just as prestigious as Mercedes buyers would see their own brand. The very fact that so-called 'fanboys' exist supports this idea - irrespective of measurable and objective data, one side perceives their own brand as superior to the other. Pepsi drinkers, for example, think their product is better than Coke; Coke buyers think their product is better than Pepsi.

How can we seek to establish one as better than the other, when priorities of given buyers remain inherently different? How can prestige be used as a measure of a luxury brand when the term itself cannot be properly defined and agreed upon by a majority of buyers? Prestige, from my perspective, is not defined by the history of a brand; rather, it is entirely dependent on the material quality and driving ability of a car. Wimmer's idea of prestige is largely driven by a brand's history, and its motorsport achievements - and the very fact that our notions of prestige differ implies that one cannot apply the idea of prestige as the sole measure of a worthy luxury brand. Neither perception is better than the other; I might be entirely wrong, but my idea continues to exist, and continues to influence the market. This is why a brand must try to appeal to a wide market - to limit oneself to a small portion of the population assumes that all people within that market think alike, and this is not the case. Certainly, it is all but impossible to measure.

The idea of brand image is nonsensical when it is applied to all buyers - to assume that Lexus buyers are clueless, and non-enthusiasts, and lacking in proper purchasing research is at best a dangerous generalisation - I would argue that most buyers of most products are largely inept at appropriate research in the purchasing decision process. It is rare that a given buyer will seek out the appropriate, objective, correct and entire information when making a decision; factors like brand salience, word of mouth and past buying occasions are far more influential than any pre-purchase information search. Yes, BMW buyers (on aggregate) may well argue that their car is more dynamically apt than a Lexus, but that perception is more influenced by brand salience and years of marketing-driven campaigns related to driving ability than actual data. Yes, Lexus buyers may well argue that their car is quieter and more refined than a BMW, but I would argue that such a belief is influenced by marketing activities ad personal experience rather than any statistically defensible, factual information.

In effect, a Lexus buyer will say their car is the best, and a Mercedes buyer will say their car is the best. Perception does not come before behaviour; perception comes after - just because a person holds a negative view of a certain car does not mean that they will not buy it.? Similarly, just because a person likes a given car does not mean they will buy it. Even though I think Coles supermarkets suck, I still buy from them; even though I think Toyotas are boring and inept, I still drive one every day. Even though Raza loves a Lotus Elise more than anything else doesn't mean that he owns one; even though a Pontiac GTO might be more entertaining to drive than a Volkswagen GTI doesn't mean that he will buy it. Perception does not drive buyer behaviour; a purchase decision influences perception. It seems logical to say that the enthusiast would not buy a Lexus - the supposed perception exists that a Lexus is less able at offering fun for the driver than comparable brands, but I guarantee you that enthusiast drivers have bought a Lexus, irrespective of their ideas on driving comptence.

People DO buy Lexuses. People DO think that a Lexus handles better than its opposition; people DO think that a Lexus is better built than its opposition; people DO think that a Lexus has more 'prestige' than comparable brands. Whether they are right or wrong is immaterial - once they have bought one, it is more likely they will think it is better than the opposition, and this cannot be dismissed by marketers as 'Well, they are wrong! Our brand is better!'. People of the United States do buy Lexuses in large numbers; people from Europe do not, but is one brand fundamentally worse than the other? I suggest not; the respective buyers of a given brand just think theirs is better than the other, regardless of actual data, and this is entirely natural.

That's an excellent post for a drunkard!

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 12:49:42 PM
But I don't understand what's so hard about this simple statement, which I have backed up with a passion.

PRESTIGE

Mercedes > Lexus

It's not that we don't understand, it's that we don't agree.  In your European world, prestige might be backed up with European racing heritage, European automotive history, all the stuff that your average American car buyer doesn't know squat about anyway.

Here in America, it doesn't work out so nicely.  Alot of those classic Mercedes cars were primarily sold in Europe.  Alot of those motorsport achievements don't matter here in America because simply we've never even heard of them.  Tell your average luxury car buyer about all those racing achievements and all he'll hear are a bunch of foreign names and numbers, none of which mean anything at all.

Mercedes heritage might mean alot to you, and people like you.  But people like you are a minority in America.

A reverse example to this would be Corvette.  Corvette has alot of brand history here in America.  Many people of this generation grew up with Stingrays, Makosharks, and know of the many motorsport achievements Corvette has achieved in it's 50 years.  Very very few car models have survived 50+ years, not even the Porsche 911.  Thus Chevy has no real problem selling lots of Corvettes here, and the Corvette nameplate has become America's premire sports car nameplate.  But Corvette is struggling in Europe because all of that history and all of those racing wins simple don't mean anything to Europeans.   Corvette has pretty much zero prestige in Europe, and earned little respect until recently with consecutive LeMans wins (notice it took wins in a high profile European setting to capture the European audience).

The same idea holds here.  Your image of Mercedes simply does that translate easily to Americans.  All those racing wins you listed were in events that most Americans know little about. 

Quote from: omicron on April 24, 2007, 01:15:35 PM
The idea of prestige is entirely marketing-driven. I would argue that the buyers of a Lexus feel that their car has just as much 'prestige' as the buyers of a Mercedes perceive their own car, irrespective of the opinions of those on this forum. It has been proven many a time that the buyers of a given brand perceive their brand equally to that of buyers of another brand - Lexus buyers, on average, would see their brand as just as prestigious as Mercedes buyers would see their own brand. The very fact that so-called 'fanboys' exist supports this idea - irrespective of measurable and objective data, one side perceives their own brand as superior to the other. Pepsi drinkers, for example, think their product is better than Coke; Coke buyers think their product is better than Pepsi.

How can we seek to establish one as better than the other, when priorities of given buyers remain inherently different? How can prestige be used as a measure of a luxury brand when the term itself cannot be properly defined and agreed upon by a majority of buyers? Prestige, from my perspective, is not defined by the history of a brand; rather, it is entirely dependent on the material quality and driving ability of a car. Wimmer's idea of prestige is largely driven by a brand's history, and its motorsport achievements - and the very fact that our notions of prestige differ implies that one cannot apply the idea of prestige as the sole measure of a worthy luxury brand. Neither perception is better than the other; I might be entirely wrong, but my idea continues to exist, and continues to influence the market. This is why a brand must try to appeal to a wide market - to limit oneself to a small portion of the population assumes that all people within that market think alike, and this is not the case. Certainly, it is all but impossible to measure.

The idea of brand image is nonsensical when it is applied to all buyers - to assume that Lexus buyers are clueless, and non-enthusiasts, and lacking in proper purchasing research is at best a dangerous generalisation - I would argue that most buyers of most products are largely inept at appropriate research in the purchasing decision process. It is rare that a given buyer will seek out the appropriate, objective, correct and entire information when making a decision; factors like brand salience, word of mouth and past buying occasions are far more influential than any pre-purchase information search. Yes, BMW buyers (on aggregate) may well argue that their car is more dynamically apt than a Lexus, but that perception is more influenced by brand salience and years of marketing-driven campaigns related to driving ability than actual data. Yes, Lexus buyers may well argue that their car is quieter and more refined than a BMW, but I would argue that such a belief is influenced by marketing activities ad personal experience rather than any statistically defensible, factual information.

In effect, a Lexus buyer will say their car is the best, and a Mercedes buyer will say their car is the best. Perception does not come before behaviour; perception comes after - just because a person holds a negative view of a certain car does not mean that they will not buy it.  Similarly, just because a person likes a given car does not mean they will buy it. Even though I think Coles supermarkets suck, I still buy from them; even though I think Toyotas are boring and inept, I still drive one every day. Even though Raza loves a Lotus Elise more than anything else doesn't mean that he owns one; even though a Pontiac GTO might be more entertaining to drive than a Volkswagen GTI doesn't mean that he will buy it. Perception does not drive buyer behaviour; a purchase decision influences perception. It seems logical to say that the enthusiast would not buy a Lexus - the supposed perception exists that a Lexus is less able at offering fun for the driver than comparable brands, but I guarantee you that enthusiast drivers have bought a Lexus, irrespective of their ideas on driving comptence.

People DO buy Lexuses. People DO think that a Lexus handles better than its opposition; people DO think that a Lexus is better built than its opposition; people DO think that a Lexus has more 'prestige' than comparable brands. Whether they are right or wrong is immaterial - once they have bought one, it is more likely they will think it is better than the opposition, and this cannot be dismissed by marketers as 'Well, they are wrong! Our brand is better!'. People of the United States do buy Lexuses in large numbers; people from Europe do not, but is one brand fundamentally worse than the other? I suggest not; the respective buyers of a given brand just think theirs is better than the other, regardless of actual data, and this is entirely natural.

Good post. 10/10.  :rockon:

Quote from: 565 on April 24, 2007, 01:16:27 PM
It's not that we don't understand, it's that we don't agree.  In your European world, prestige might be backed up with European racing heritage, European automotive history, all the stuff that your average American car buyer doesn't know squat about anyway.

Here in America, it doesn't work out so nicely.  Alot of those classic Mercedes cars were primarily sold in Europe.  Alot of those motorsport achievements don't matter here in America because simply we've never even heard of them.  Tell your average luxury car buyer about all those racing achievements and all he'll hear are a bunch of foreign names and numbers, none of which mean anything at all.

Mercedes heritage might mean alot to you, and people like you.  But people like you are a minority in America.

A reverse example to this would be Corvette.  Corvette has alot of brand history here in America.  Many people of this generation grew up with Stingrays, Makosharks, and know of the many motorsport achievements Corvette has achieved in it's 50 years.  Very very few car models have survived 50+ years, not even the Porsche 911.  Thus Chevy has no real problem selling lots of Corvettes here, and the Corvette nameplate has become America's premire sports car nameplate.  But Corvette is struggling in Europe because all of that history and all of those racing wins simple don't mean anything to Europeans.   Corvette has pretty much zero prestige in Europe, and earned little respect until recently with consecutive LeMans wins (notice it took wins in a high profile European setting to capture the European audience).

The same idea holds here.  Your image of Mercedes simply does that translate easily to Americans.  All those racing wins you listed were in events that most Americans know little about. 

Good post and I fully agree. And yes, your Corvette analogy is a good example. Desired in America, overlooked in Europe. I'm tired after all this typing, night night.  ;)

Wimmer, I think where we all disagree with you on is the importance of past events. Hitler-sponsored racing innovations from 70 years ago have little to no bearing on today's product line. the mentality of placing that much importance on pedigree and history is essentially a caste system for cars: outdated and irrelevant.

The past is the past. Time to move on. ;)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 12:25:35 PM
WHAT'S THAT? A NASCAR Lexus racecar? The day Lexus participates in Formula 1, Le Mans, Carrera Panamericana, Paris-Dakar etc., you ring me up, ok? Mercedes doesn't officially participate in the Paris-Dakar Rally, and neither does BMW. Yet you have a group of enthusiasts racing with a modified ML350 from Mercedes and a X3 3.0i from BMW. It's good advertising.

Uhm wimmer, that's from the Rolex 24 hour series. Not NASCAR. See, that car in the pic is making a right turn. :ohyeah:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 12:38:58 PM
I'm not asking you to care, I'm asking you to use your God damn brain and read what the hell I am saying. I think I've expressed myself clearly enough. I've stated that the history and achievements behind a company like Mercedes-Benz are untouchable by Lexus, no matter what. The history behind Mercedes-Benz is one of PASSION and EMOTIONS. Lexus? ZERO PASSION. Created by Toyota etc. Where's the passion there? There's none. Toyota simply saw Lexus as a means of taking away some customers from the European luxury brands by means of cheaper prices initially. That's it. No passion whatsoever. The Toyota Celsior was a Mercedes W140 S-Class CLONE. Again, no passion. Or maybe the passionate pursuit of imitation would sound better? :rolleyes:

Yes, MB has more passion than Lexus, that's true. But what I'm saying is that i don't care about history and old racing and what not, it's irrelavant, and you aren't understanding that. :rolleyes:

Quote
Yes you are a dipshit. It already starts out with your demented perception that RWD > FWD. Here's my question. WHAT THE FUCK? FWD has it's advantages, especially in the snow or in economy cars where weight-saving is an important issue. Some of the greatest classics the world has ever seen were FWD. Want me to name a few? Gladly.

The 1934 Citroen Traction Avant was one of the BEST-HANDLING and QUICKEST FWD cars in its day. Even the invading German Army was impressed with the car that many were used by the Germans themselves. This car was such a smash hit, production continued well into the late 1950s.

The 1939 DKW Front Luxus Sport, one of the first German FWD cars available to the masses at a good price with good performance and handling. Only the advent of World War II doomed it.

It's fair to say that the Honda Civic is a pretty sweet car, despite the FWD setup, even with a bit of extra power, the Civic still combines good performance with economy and much more.

See, I asked that question because I didn't think you were one to call people names, but apparently I'm mistaken.
First of all, WTF does my sig have to do with any of this?
Second of all, it's my OPINION. I don't care if you agree with it or not but don't try and push your idea that FWD is the best on me. I've worked on FWD cars and RWD cars, and working on FWD cars is a pain in the ass. I"m not dealing with that when i get a car. Plus, RWD is much more balanced than FWD.
At least i don't go into threads now spewing how a car isn't RWD anymore. And you've barged into many Lexus threads saying "That's a Lexus! It's sooo boring!". Even if you're joking, it gets really lame after a while.


I'm going to stop arguing now and say that it's different in America and Germany/ Europe.

AWD > RWD

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 24, 2007, 06:00:33 PM
AWD > RWD

Having had both, No.

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 24, 2007, 06:00:33 PM
AWD > RWD

Spoken like someone afraid of RWD cars.

AWD is heavy and saps power, and for lower power applications you don't really even need it.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 06:09:57 PM
AWD is heavy and saps power, and for lower power applications you don't really even need it.

... unless you insist on using summer-tires and you live on an ice-rink.

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 24, 2007, 06:00:33 PM
AWD > RWD

Damn straight!  :rockon:

You have FWD too, so well spoken!

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 24, 2007, 11:59:23 AM
The LS460 isn't a rebadge of any Toyota. Neither is the IS350 or the GS430/450h.

The GS is a reengineered Avalon.

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 24, 2007, 06:00:33 PM
AWD > RWD

Why's that?

Quote from: JYODER240 on April 24, 2007, 07:29:54 PM
The GS is a reengineered Avalon.

Right, the RWD car is based on an FWD one, right? :rolleyes:

Quote from: JYODER240 on April 24, 2007, 07:29:54 PM
The GS is a reengineered Avalon.

No it's not. :huh:

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 24, 2007, 07:35:27 PM
No it's not. :huh:

He should've said ES.

Depends on whether the 2005 Avalon was redesigned on the 2002-2006 or the 2007 Camry/ES platform. But it's definitely closer to the truth.

I know the Avalon is FWD and the GS is AWD/RWD but I swear that I read somewhere that they are based on each other. Either way they share some componets.

Quote from: JYODER240 on April 24, 2007, 07:54:56 PM
I know the Avalon is FWD and the GS is AWD/RWD but I swear that I read somewhere that they are based on each other. Either way they share some componets.

I bet the Z and Maxima share SOMETHING but they aren't based off of each other.

Quote from: JYODER240 on April 24, 2007, 07:54:56 PM
I know the Avalon is FWD and the GS is AWD/RWD but I swear that I read somewhere that they are based on each other. Either way they share some componets.

Same V6, but that's it.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 07:55:42 PM
I bet the Z and Maxima share SOMETHING but they aren't based off of each other.

No kidding Sherlock :rolleyes:

I'll try to find where i read it, it might have been some literature from work but I don't really remember it was awhile ago.

Quote from: rjm on April 24, 2007, 07:48:35 PM
He should've said ES.

No. The ES is a rebadged Camry.

That doesn't make any sense at all.

Quote from: ifcar on April 24, 2007, 07:56:44 PM
Same V6, but that's it.

Yes, but almost all Toyotas now share that 3.5. The Camry, Avalon, Sienna, IS350, ES350, GS350, RX350

Quote from: JYODER240 on April 24, 2007, 07:57:53 PM
No kidding Sherlock :rolleyes:

I'll try to find where i read it, it might have been some literature from work but I don't really remember it was awhile ago.

You're supposed to say "No shit, Sherlock", because it rhymes. Duh.? :rolleyes:

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 24, 2007, 07:58:45 PM
Yes, but almost all Toyotas now share that 3.5. The Camry, Avalon, Sienna, IS350, ES350, GS350, RX350

I know. So?

Quote from: ifcar on April 24, 2007, 07:59:47 PM
I know. So?

Sorry; I thought you were trying to say that just because they share the engine they're a very similar car. My mistake.

Quote from: NACar on April 24, 2007, 07:59:44 PM
You're supposed to say "No shit, Sherlock", because it rhymes. Duh.? :rolleyes:

:confused: It rhymes? Are you sure about that?

I think the word you're looking for is "alliteration."  :ohyeah:

Quote from: JYODER240 on April 24, 2007, 07:30:14 PM
Why's that?

Don't know, he'll probably come up with some ridiculous excuse having to do with "Canadian Winters".

Quote from: Tave on April 24, 2007, 08:02:23 PM
:confused: It rhymes? Are you sure about that?

I think the word you're looking for is "alliteration."? :ohyeah:

Tomato, Potato. Rhyme, schmime. Bananas, pajamas. Alliteration, obliteration.   :P

Quote from: NACar on April 24, 2007, 08:03:54 PM
Tomato, Potato. Rhyme, schmime. Bananas, pajamas. Alliteration, obliteration.? ?:P

Which is not to be confused with onomatopoeia.

Quote from: rjm on April 24, 2007, 08:07:54 PM
Which is not to be confused with onomatopoeia.

That's FUCKED UP!

I know you were just joking but I heard those EXACT SAME words 6 hours and 15 minutes ago. Talk about deja vu!

Quote from: Tave on April 24, 2007, 08:34:38 PM
That's FUCKED UP!

I know you were just joking but I heard those EXACT SAME words 6 hours and 15 minutes ago. Talk about deja vu!

Sorry.  Just popped into my head!

Quote from: Vinsanity on April 24, 2007, 01:47:35 PM
Wimmer, I think where we all disagree with you on is the importance of past events. Hitler-sponsored racing innovations from 70 years ago have little to no bearing on today's product line. the mentality of placing that much importance on pedigree and history is essentially a caste system for cars: outdated and irrelevant.

The past is the past. Time to move on. ;)

I can't accept that.

You're essentially telling me that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz from a prestige POV simply because they offer a superior product. In my book, this doesn't work that way.

What are we going to do about the great past achievements of Mercedes-Benz? Just forget about them? We're just going to say that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz because they offer leather and an 8-speed automatic but are $1 million cheaper or something? Doesn't work that way in my book. Those achievements and that history is what made Mercedes a great brand. Lexus achievements cannot be compared to Mercedes.

Mercedes-Benz was an innovator, Lexus was a copier. At a time when the automobile was new, when safety features and this and that had not been developed, Mercedes-Benz was a pioneer in almost all fields whether it be engine technology, safety etc. Fast forward to 1989, Lexus is created by Toyota. Do they have to worry about safety? Or engine technology? Or this or that? No, because it has already been invented. Lexus doesn't have to invent it, they simply can afford to take it and improve on it, whatever it is. Get what I am saying? Lexus has had it so easy. Unfairly easy I should add. Their quick route to success means nothing to me, especially considering that they're significantly cheaper.

And all of a sudden Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes from an image POV because of being successful in the USA? I cannot accept that because to me, as someone who judges brand prestige based on history and achievements and global desireability, a Lexus is not even in the same class image wise as a Mercedes or a BMW or even a Skoda or Fiat.

In the US, it doesn't matter who's done something the longest, it matters who's doing it the best right now as long as there's enough history for name recognition and trust.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 05:32:49 PM
Yes, MB has more passion than Lexus, that's true. But what I'm saying is that i don't care about history and old racing and what not, it's irrelavant, and you aren't understanding that. :rolleyes:

You might not care, and that's fine, and I don't care if the average Lexus buyer doesn't care either. My problem is that these same people who don't care about the past claim that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz from an image POV. And here's the problem. They make such a bullshit statement because they don't know the history of Mercedes (or Lexus or BMW etc.). Seriously, I can respect Lexus, but I cannot respect such bullshit claims that Lexus prestige and brand image is on the same level as Mercedes, because to me it is clearly not. There's not even a comparison. Lexus get's whooped thrice over.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 05:32:49 PMSee, I asked that question because I didn't think you were one to call people names, but apparently I'm mistaken.

I apologize, I lost my cool.  :ohyeah:

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 05:32:49 PMFirst of all, WTF does my sig have to do with any of this? Second of all, it's my OPINION. I don't care if you agree with it or not but don't try and push your idea that FWD is the best on me. I've worked on FWD cars and RWD cars, and working on FWD cars is a pain in the ass. I"m not dealing with that when i get a car. Plus, RWD is much more balanced than FWD.

You have your opinion about FWD, and I can respect that. However I've seen posts were you bash a car for the sole purpose of it being FWD. That almost sounds like Car and Driver when they complain about the best times and handling of a Cadillac Escalade on the Nuremberg Ring. Maybe you can work for them.  :lol:  :devil:

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 05:32:49 PMAt least i don't go into threads now spewing how a car isn't RWD anymore. And you've barged into many Lexus threads saying "That's a Lexus! It's sooo boring!". Even if you're joking, it gets really lame after a while.

I don't think I called a Lexus boring, I think I called them a "rebadged Toyota".  :devil:

And yeah, I know it get's old and I stopped doing it. In fact, check my first replies in this thread. I didn't bash Lexus in the sense that I called the car crap etc. I complained about the poor load capacity of the LS460. The Mercedes S-Class for example is a heavy car, yet it can carry nearly 200 kg more weight (600 kg total) than the LS460.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 05:32:49 PMI'm going to stop arguing now and say that it's different in Americ
a and Germany/ Europe.

It is a difference in culture. Europeans are passionate about cars, that's no secret. The Classic Car Show I attended, the people there knew their stuff. You overhear people talk and they know the history of the cars at the show etc. I don't know about America...

Quote

People who go to classic car shows here also tend to know what they're talking about. They just don't tend to represent the population as a whole.

Quote from: ifcar on April 25, 2007, 06:10:19 AM
People who go to classic car shows here also tend to know what they're talking about. They just don't tend to represent the population as a whole.

Good point.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 24, 2007, 12:56:19 PM
A base model C180 Kompressor is just as prestigeous as a fully loaded C350, the difference is only in the degree of luxury. What makes it prestigeous? The badge. Simple.

Wimmer, I'm sorry but that's bullshit.  I agree with some of your arguments, but just because you think something doesn't mean all of 'us Europeans' think the same thing. ;)

Because people are gonna get it twisted.  Not ALL Europeans hate Lexus and not ALL Americans love it.

I do think you have a valid point about Lexus' lack of brand history, but I do think you could be a bit more tolerant sometimes - you don't need to flame every thread about a Lexus.  I'd rather read your wicked classic car posts to be honest  :ohyeah:

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on April 25, 2007, 07:03:00 AM
Wimmer, I'm sorry but that's bullshit.  I agree with some of your arguments, but just because you think something doesn't mean all of 'us Europeans' think the same thing. ;)

Because people are gonna get it twisted.  Not ALL Europeans hate Lexus and not ALL Americans love it.

I do think you have a valid point about Lexus' lack of brand history, but I do think you could be a bit more tolerant sometimes - you don't need to flame every thread about a Lexus.  I'd rather read your wicked classic car posts to be honest  :ohyeah:

Consider this, rich people buy the C180 Kompressor and equip it with leather and God knows what else. This is not bullshit. I've read the Mercedes marketing reports when I was working for them two years ago as a summer job. I was allowed to read salesmans guide to selling a C, E, S, ML and SL-Class. I am NOT bullshitting. I don't like to make up fairy tales.  :rolleyes:

The C180 Kompressor is just as bit luxurious as a C350 if equipped properly. The only difference is in performance and fuel economy. And as yoyu should be aware, quick 0-60 times are not so important overhere as they are in North America. A 10 second 0-100 km/h is completely accepted for luxury cars in Europe. What matters is the badge and even a C180K has the Benz badge. And I am pretty sure it's the same deal in the UK. When I was in London, I saw tons of C180K and C200Ks that had high-spec equipment levels like leather, navigation, memory seats etc. Trust me, a C180K is just as prestigeous as a C350 in everything except performance.

This is like the BMW "fans" who claim that a "4-cylinder BMW is not a real BMW". These fans should be beaten and ass whooped because if they knew their BMW history, they'd see that 4-cylinders are a big and glorious part of BMW's history. Heck, BMW has even won entire racing championships with a "sissy" 4-cylinder engine.

I see that Mercedes/ BMW, etc is just like the GM's, Fords, etc of America. They have been here forever and have there own history. Mercedes has been around since the mid late 1800's and Toyota has been around since the early 1930's. I think each has there own history and prestige. For an auto nameplate to evolutionize is prestige to me.

Being European and growing up in Regensburg (1 of BMW's plants is there) I just viewed Mercedes/ BMW/ Audi as regular cars. I didnt drop to the ground seeing one on the road. Plus I remember alot of the cars were cloth interior, hubcaps, etc.  We currently have an Audi A6 2.0 tdi with cloth seats in the garage.

I remember coming to the states and seeing them the German 3. I realized more of the prestige. Americans dont buy one of those 3 stripped down. Even just looking at them here seemed alot different here than Germany. Yes there are alot of nice models on the road in Germany but  in the states (California) it overpasses in my views.  So I really dont see how Europeans have this prestige. Someone recently posted sales of autos from Germany and comparing it to the states, Americans buy a ton more of the higher end German cars than Germany itself.

Lexus is a fine auto but European tastes do not want fully loaded cars with all the options and I think that what hurt sales. You can buy a stripped down Mercedes, etc. but not with Lexus. Lexus needs to develop this in Europe too but not having plants throughout Europe its unfavorable to do. I dont think Toyota for now will build a plant to build auto suiting more for individual tastes.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 25, 2007, 08:05:19 AM

Consider this, rich people buy the C180 Kompressor and equip it with leather and God knows what else. This is not bullshit. I've read the Mercedes marketing reports when I was working for them two years ago as a summer job. I was allowed to read salesmans guide to selling a C, E, S, ML and SL-Class. I am NOT bullshitting. I don't like to make up fairy tales.  :rolleyes:

The C180 Kompressor is just as bit luxurious as a C350 if equipped properly. The only difference is in performance and fuel economy. And as yoyu should be aware, quick 0-60 times are not so important overhere as they are in North America. A 10 second 0-100 km/h is completely accepted for luxury cars in Europe. What matters is the badge and even a C180K has the Benz badge. And I am pretty sure it's the same deal in the UK. When I was in London, I saw tons of C180K and C200Ks that had high-spec equipment levels like leather, navigation, memory seats etc. Trust me, a C180K is just as prestigeous as a C350 in everything except performance.

This is like the BMW "fans" who claim that a "4-cylinder BMW is not a real BMW". These fans should be beaten and ass whooped because if they knew their BMW history, they'd see that 4-cylinders are a big and glorious part of BMW's history. Heck, BMW has even won entire racing championships with a "sissy" 4-cylinder engine.

I have to disagree Wimmer.   In London, there are far many S500s and S600s around than S320, for example.  Do people buy this because they need to do 0-60 in 5 seconds around Marble Arch?  No.  They have money to burn and want to buy what is perceived as the best they can get.

Anyway, you're missing my point.  I didn't say that the smaller engine variants weren't 'proper' Mercedes.  Just that more expensive, larger engined models were more prestigious than those cheaper variants.

If your argue was to hold water, then people would consider the A-Class to be as prestigious as an S-Class.   A CLK 55 AMG would be no more prestigious than a CLK 200.  If you think that is true, you must be pretty deluded.

Plus, how a company sees itself and how a customer sees them can be two very different things.  Since you have read many marketing reports, you surely should know that.

I accept that things might be different in Germany, but at the end of the day you can't take one example to generalise the whole of Europe, just because that's where Mercs are made.

Quote from: Yawn on April 25, 2007, 08:18:05 AM
I see that Mercedes/ BMW, etc is just like the GM's, Fords, etc of America. They have been here forever and have there own history. Mercedes has been around since the mid late 1800's and Toyota has been around since the early 1930's. I think each has there own history and prestige. For an auto nameplate to evolutionize is prestige to me.

Being European and growing up in Regensburg (1 of BMW's plants is there) I just viewed Mercedes/ BMW/ Audi as regular cars. I didnt drop to the ground seeing one on the road. Plus I remember alot of the cars were cloth interior, hubcaps, etc.  We currently have an Audi A6 2.0 tdi with cloth seats in the garage.

I remember coming to the states and seeing them the German 3. I realized more of the prestige. Americans dont buy one of those 3 stripped down. Even just looking at them here seemed alot different here than Germany. Yes there are alot of nice models on the road in Germany but  in the states (California) it overpasses in my views.  So I really dont see how Europeans have this prestige. Someone recently posted sales of autos from Germany and comparing it to the states, Americans buy a ton more of the higher end German cars than Germany itself.

Lexus is a fine auto but European tastes do not want fully loaded cars with all the options and I think that what hurt sales. You can buy a stripped down Mercedes, etc. but not with Lexus. Lexus needs to develop this in Europe too but not having plants throughout Europe its unfavorable to do. I dont think Toyota for now will build a plant to build auto suiting more for individual tastes.

I do agree that Mercedes, Audi, and BMW are probably not seen as luxury as they are in the US.  But they still do have a premium image.  A lot of people will pay more for what they see as a superior product, despite an A3/1 Series being much more comparatively expensive than a Ford, Toyota, Vauxhall etc.

Quote from: ifcar on April 25, 2007, 06:10:19 AM
People who go to classic car shows here also tend to know what they're talking about. They just don't tend to represent the population as a whole.

Depends on the show.  I have shown in several multi marque shows and you get people who know more about my car than I do down to people who don't know what they are looking at until I tell them or they read the script on the bootlid.

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on April 25, 2007, 08:29:13 AM
I have to disagree Wimmer.   In London, there are far many S500s and S600s around than S320, for example.  Do people buy this because they need to do 0-60 in 5 seconds around Marble Arch?  No.  They have money to burn and want to buy what is perceived as the best they can get.

Anyway, you're missing my point.  I didn't say that the smaller engine variants weren't 'proper' Mercedes.  Just that more expensive, larger engined models were more prestigious than those cheaper variants.

If your argue was to hold water, then people would consider the A-Class to be as prestigious as an S-Class.   A CLK 55 AMG would be no more prestigious than a CLK 200.  If you think that is true, you must be pretty deluded.

Plus, how a company sees itself and how a customer sees them can be two very different things.  Since you have read many marketing reports, you surely should know that.

I accept that things might be different in Germany, but at the end of the day you can't take one example to generalise the whole of Europe, just because that's where Mercs are made.

I should have been more specific. I am not generalizing the whole of Europe but there appears to be a large segment of consumers for whom a C180K is just as good as a C350. A C180K is a Mercedes-Benz, a C350 is a Mercedes-Benz. They're both C-Classes from a prestigeous make, the only major difference being engine and equipment levels. To most Europeans, equipment levels are not much of a big deal, especially when it comes to excessive equipment like electric seats for example. Most cars are equipped with the basic features the average European consumer wants or will need when they purchase this car. I am one of these people. I'd rather own a C180K than a C350 because it gets you from A to B just as fast and with lower costs for example.

And people with money to burn don't necessarily go for the big toys. Many rich people in my area go for an S320 CDI for example. A sleazy lawyer I know in this town has a BMW X5 3.0d and a Mercedes CLS320 CDI, the base models essentially. A Baroness in nearby T??ling has a base model Volkswagen Golf SDI (naturally aspirated diesel). A wealthy doctor has a C180 Kompressor (W203 pre-facelift) and an SL280 (R129) - and this guy could easily afford something more expensive. The point is that a lot of wealthy people don't see the need to go for something "excessive".

London is different and hard to categorize. Many S500s are owned by diplomats or foreigners, often Arabs who have the $$$ and don't care. The C180K or C200Ks I am talking about, in London, where owned by your typical Mr. John Smith Englishman in his late 60s who seems to be the a conservative fellow. I've spoken to a few of these people because I wanted to know why they bought a C180K. The answer I got was the one I gave you in my last sentence in the first paragraph.

Also, an S320 CDI is an S-Class, it is a prestigeous and luxurious vehicle. The S500 boasts more power and a few more options, but do we really need these options? The S320 CDI or S350 comes decently equipped with all the options you'd ever need. The S500 might be a little more luxurious, but prestige wise, both the S320 CDI and S500 are S-CLASSES.

I'd love to write more, but I got to post Part II and do stuff for my town. :ohyeah:

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on April 25, 2007, 07:03:00 AM
Wimmer, I'm sorry but that's bullshit.  I agree with some of your arguments, but just because you think something doesn't mean all of 'us Europeans' think the same thing. ;)

Because people are gonna get it twisted.  Not ALL Europeans hate Lexus and not ALL Americans love it.

I do think you have a valid point about Lexus' lack of brand history, but I do think you could be a bit more tolerant sometimes - you don't need to flame every thread about a Lexus.  I'd rather read your wicked classic car posts to be honest  :ohyeah:

Awesome post nick, awesome post. :clap:

To defend Wimmer I bit, I understand where he is coming from, and I have respect for Mercedes as an automotive company. Anyone who doesn't should visit their musem. However, I, I think like most American consumers with a bit of knowledge, am not willing to pay more for a car that I view as equal or inferior to a car of lesser price simply because it's from a company with an illustrious history. If I consider the cars of similar to identical quality, and they both fit my needs similarly, I will go with the less expensive car every time, especially when both are viewed as prestigious cars by the common public and I know there's little to no difference in perception (if we go from the badge image concious buyer standpoint). You can't produce cars that are about the same as everyone else and charge more for them because you did something in the past, regardless of how significant or impressive it might have been. (Toyota may very well learn this lesson soon about quality.) The only Mercedes models I feel that price is an issue with is the upper end models, or very high trim lines of each model. I feel most of them are pretty competitively priced and that it shouldn't be a major issue to the average luxury buyer.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 25, 2007, 06:03:33 AM
You might not care, and that's fine, and I don't care if the average Lexus buyer doesn't care either. My problem is that these same people who don't care about the past claim that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz from an image POV. And here's the problem. They make such a bullshit statement because they don't know the history of Mercedes (or Lexus or BMW etc.). Seriously, I can respect Lexus, but I cannot respect such bullshit claims that Lexus prestige and brand image is on the same level as Mercedes, because to me it is clearly not. There's not even a comparison. Lexus get's whooped thrice over.

I didn't see any Lexus fanboys here (does CarSPIn even have any?) saying that Lexus has just as good of a history as BMW or Mercedes...
And most people don't really take brand history into account when they buy a car. Prestige, sure (like my mom, she wants a 7 series. :rolleyes:), but not brand history, at least not here.

QuoteI apologize, I lost my cool. :ohyeah:

Yeah, it's cool.

QuoteYou have your opinion about FWD, and I can respect that. However I've seen posts were you bash a car for the sole purpose of it being FWD. That almost sounds like Car and Driver when they complain about the best times and handling of a Cadillac Escalade on the Nuremberg Ring. Maybe you can work for them. :lol: :devil:

I'd love a job at C/D. :devil:
But as I said, i've stopped coming into every thread saying that the car sucks because it's FWD and not RWD. I don't even bring up that argument anymore.

Quote

It is a difference in culture. Europeans are passionate about cars, that's no secret. The Classic Car Show I attended, the people there knew their stuff. You overhear people talk and they know the history of the cars at the show etc. I don't know about America...

I'd say that Americans know as much about cars as Europeans do, i'm just saying that maybe for Europeans, brand history is more important. I don't know really.

Brand prestige is much more complicated than the history of the company associated with it.  It also deals with the current interpretation and impression that the brand makes on the consumer. 

It is not as easy as saying "Mercedes has been around longer, has more race wins, and has made more innovations than Lexus, therefore they are more prestigous"...... :ohyeah:

Quote from: Raghavan on April 24, 2007, 12:00:59 PM

Better go tell those dummies at Lexus to stop racing these:
(http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2006-01/21685601.jpg)
huh? :rolleyes:
Those race in 24 hour series races. Tell me that doesn't test endurance. :rolleyes:

To be fair, that is only a Lexus engine (and maybe transmission) in a Riley chassis, so I wouldn't give too much credit to Lexus....

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 25, 2007, 05:43:56 AM
I can't accept that.

You're essentially telling me that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz from a prestige POV simply because they offer a superior product. In my book, this doesn't work that way.

What are we going to do about the great past achievements of Mercedes-Benz? Just forget about them? We're just going to say that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz because they offer leather and an 8-speed automatic but are $1 million cheaper or something? Doesn't work that way in my book. Those achievements and that history is what made Mercedes a great brand. Lexus achievements cannot be compared to Mercedes.

Mercedes-Benz was an innovator, Lexus was a copier. At a time when the automobile was new, when safety features and this and that had not been developed, Mercedes-Benz was a pioneer in almost all fields whether it be engine technology, safety etc. Fast forward to 1989, Lexus is created by Toyota. Do they have to worry about safety? Or engine technology? Or this or that? No, because it has already been invented. Lexus doesn't have to invent it, they simply can afford to take it and improve on it, whatever it is. Get what I am saying? Lexus has had it so easy. Unfairly easy I should add. Their quick route to success means nothing to me, especially considering that they're significantly cheaper.

And all of a sudden Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes from an image POV because of being successful in the USA? I cannot accept that because to me, as someone who judges brand prestige based on history and achievements and global desireability, a Lexus is not even in the same class image wise as a Mercedes or a BMW or even a Skoda or Fiat.

sorry, but that's just how industry works. you develop products relevant to the market as it exists today, not try to replicate the history of another company. you can't expect Lexus to keep reinventing the wheel when they debut a new car. :rolleyes:

if it's any consolation, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

Quote from: Yawn on April 25, 2007, 08:18:05 AM
Lexus is a fine auto but European tastes do not want fully loaded cars with all the options and I think that what hurt sales. You can buy a stripped down Mercedes, etc. but not with Lexus. Lexus needs to develop this in Europe too but not having plants throughout Europe its unfavorable to do. I dont think Toyota for now will build a plant to build auto suiting more for individual tastes.

This is one of the reasons they don't do well in Europe. They're selling American luxury in Europe, where people are bit more conscious of what is in their car. Also, the fact that Lexus vehicles are pretty much fuel inefficient for European tastes doesn't help either.

Quote from: thewizard16 on April 25, 2007, 04:17:31 PM
To defend Wimmer I bit, I understand where he is coming from, and I have respect for Mercedes as an automotive company. Anyone who doesn't should visit their musem. However, I, I think like most American consumers with a bit of knowledge, am not willing to pay more for a car that I view as equal or inferior to a car of lesser price simply because it's from a company with an illustrious history. If I consider the cars of similar to identical quality, and they both fit my needs similarly, I will go with the less expensive car every time, especially when both are viewed as prestigious cars by the common public and I know there's little to no difference in perception (if we go from the badge image concious buyer standpoint). You can't produce cars that are about the same as everyone else and charge more for them because you did something in the past, regardless of how significant or impressive it might have been. (Toyota may very well learn this lesson soon about quality.) The only Mercedes models I feel that price is an issue with is the upper end models, or very high trim lines of each model. I feel most of them are pretty competitively priced and that it shouldn't be a major issue to the average luxury buyer.

Good post. I see your point and I do agree and what people buy is up to them. No doubt Lexus has their own prestige, but my point is that their prestige is nowhere on the same level as Mercedes-Benz if we examine history. Lexus might be all that in the US, but the average global citizen is not won over by a name which stands for nothing if you know what I mean. ;)

Quote from: Raghavan on April 25, 2007, 05:22:21 PM
I didn't see any Lexus fanboys here (does CarSPIn even have any?) saying that Lexus has just as good of a history as BMW or Mercedes...
And most people don't really take brand history into account when they buy a car. Prestige, sure (like my mom, she wants a 7 series. :rolleyes:), but not brand history, at least not here.

TheIntrepid is a Lexus fanboy!  :devil: :lol:

Quote from: Raghavan on April 25, 2007, 05:22:21 PM
I'd say that Americans know as much about cars as Europeans do, i'm just saying that maybe for Europeans, brand history is more important. I don't know really.

I think there are plenty of Americans that love the cache of a Audi, BMW or Mercedes or a European car and who feel that a Lexus, Acura or Infiniti are just superior "imitations" of these cars. It's pretty obvious that some people don't care about history, or maybe they do but they can't afford a German luxury car, hence they go for a cheaper and better equipped Japanese luxury car. There are many situations for this scenario...

Quote from: Vinsanity on April 27, 2007, 10:10:40 AM
sorry, but that's just how industry works. you develop products relevant to the market as it exists today, not try to replicate the history of another company. you can't expect Lexus to keep reinventing the wheel when they debut a new car. :rolleyes:

if it's any consolation, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

I understand, I really do, but all I am saying is that Lexus prestige is not on the same level as Mercedes-Benz, and will never be given the history behind Mercedes. Lexus has their own kind of prestige, but it is nowhere near the level that Mercedes is on and the reason for that is history. Lexus simply took existing ideas from Mercedes-Benz and developed their own image out of it. So what if they're better equipped or more reliable? The past achievements of a brand are a major contributing factor to the prestige levels of a brand, and Mercedes has a lot to show there.

Perhaps I can live with the general average American perception of Lexus, because it is good to know that outside of North America, Lexus is probably not seen on the same level as Mercedes-Benz from an image POV.

Outside of the first LS400, what Lexus model is an "imitation" of a M-B?

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 09:22:59 AM
Outside of the first LS400, what Lexus model is an "imitation" of a M-B?

Even the second one had similar proportions. Otherwise, the only think I can reallly think of is that the LS is a blatant 7-Series imitation and that's BMW not MB.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 04:25:27 AM
TheIntrepid is a Lexus fanboy! :devil: :lol:

I think there are plenty of Americans that love the cache of a Audi, BMW or Mercedes or a European car and who feel that a Lexus, Acura or Infiniti are just superior "imitations" of these cars. It's pretty obvious that some people don't care about history, or maybe they do but they can't afford a German luxury car, hence they go for a cheaper and better equipped Japanese luxury car. There are many situations for this scenario...

I don't see how they are imitations though. They aren't like the Chinese brands, just copying the designs of another manufacturer 100%. They've been innovative too. Some cars have been close or imitations if you'd like to call it to other German designs, but Acura, Infiniti, etc aren't imitating German brands just because they were started after those companies.

Wimmer, you really need to read an essay called "Utopia Achieved" by Jean Baudrillard.  For some odd reason, you Europeans all share some similar opinion concerning what would be an American mentality.  Because it doesn't have the prestige, the history, the culture, and the style of the Europeans, it can't be as good.  But concurring with the opinions in the essay I'm forcing you to read (it's 30 pages long), American taste, while superficial, gaudy, "uncultured," and not really carrying a history, does have a place in the world.  Lexus, while Japanese, is basically an American company.  The only way it could ever be as successful as it has been is because it was designed around our tastes.  Apparently in Europe, nothing American or like it truly fits.

Quote from: 850CSi on April 28, 2007, 09:25:05 AM
Even the second one had similar proportions. Otherwise, the only think I can reallly think of is that the LS is a blatant 7-Series imitation and that's BMW not MB.

Outside of the rear tail light from the side profile view, how else is the LS a "blatant 7-Series" imitation? So basically Lexus is an imitation brand based off of 1 car? I see...in that case, is the latest S-Class a "blatant imitation" of the Ford Focus? I mean good lord, look at those headlights! The wheel arches! Rip off! I'll have to find pictures, but there is an M-B SUV that looks strikingly similar "proportionally" to the Toyota Highlander as well.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 09:22:59 AM
Outside of the first LS400, what Lexus model is an "imitation" of a M-B?

The whole Lexus company is a Japanese imitation of Mercedes-Benz, except with traditional Japanese values such as value-for-money, better equipped cars etc.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 10:42:53 AM
The whole Lexus company is a Japanese imitation of Mercedes-Benz, except with traditional Japanese values such as value-for-money, better equipped cars etc.

How so?

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 10:42:53 AM
The whole Lexus company is a Japanese imitation of Mercedes-Benz, except with traditional Japanese values such as value-for-money, better equipped cars etc.

Yes, because they're a luxury brand, right? :rolleyes:
You can't blame Toyota for wanting a bit of the luxury market.  Business is business and they're going to come into the market whether you like it or not, and it is no way an imitation.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 28, 2007, 09:32:12 AM
I don't see how they are imitations though. They aren't like the Chinese brands, just copying the designs of another manufacturer 100%. They've been innovative too. Some cars have been close or imitations if you'd like to call it to other German designs, but Acura, Infiniti, etc aren't imitating German brands just because they were started after those companies.

Did Lexus have innovate or create like Mercedes or other older brands had too? No. They've had a "bank" support them (Toyota) with money and more money and they simply ripped ideas from Mercedes and other brands. In 1989, there wasn't much to innovate or invent anymore as power steering or automatic transmissions have been around for ages for example.

There's a reason some people claim Lexus have no soul. Because the company has no history and there's evidence that they're not even trying to create history. Lexus to me simply seems to be supplying well-equipped cars to the North American market (mainly) at a cheaper price and that's it. No participation in motorsports, no innovative design features (been ripping the Hoffmeister kink of BMWs lately...), nothing. Lexus = no passion.

Passion is another factor which makes a brand prestigeous. BMW has it. Mercedes has it. Jaguar has it. Heck, even Cadillac has it. Lexus? Nein.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 10:48:26 AM
Did Lexus have innovate or create like Mercedes or other older brands had too? No. They've had a "bank" support them (Toyota) with money and more money and they simply ripped ideas from Mercedes and other brands. In 1989, there wasn't much to innovate or invent anymore as power steering or automatic transmissions have been around for ages for example.

There's a reason some people claim Lexus have no soul. Because the company has no history and there's evidence that they're not even trying to create history. Lexus to me simply seems to be supplying well-equipped cars to the North American market (mainly) at a cheaper price and that's it. No participation in motorsports, no innovative design features (been ripping the Hoffmeister kink of BMWs lately...), nothing. Lexus = no passion.

Passion is another factor which makes a brand prestigeous. BMW has it. Mercedes has it. Jaguar has it. Heck, even Cadillac has it. Lexus? Nein.

Actually Lexus has no passion or soul because their cars are boring to drive. That's it.
Sure, Lexus had all the money they wanted from Toyota, but Mercedes Benz had the entire car market basically by coming out with the first car.

Quote from: the Teuton on April 28, 2007, 09:44:39 AM
Wimmer, you really need to read an essay called "Utopia Achieved" by Jean Baudrillard.  For some odd reason, you Europeans all share some similar opinion concerning what would be an American mentality.  Because it doesn't have the prestige, the history, the culture, and the style of the Europeans, it can't be as good.  But concurring with the opinions in the essay I'm forcing you to read (it's 30 pages long), American taste, while superficial, gaudy, "uncultured," and not really carrying a history, does have a place in the world.  Lexus, while Japanese, is basically an American company.  The only way it could ever be as successful as it has been is because it was designed around our tastes.  Apparently in Europe, nothing American or like it truly fits.

Got a copy of this essay?

I'm not a snobby a European, I am simply stating that this whole idea that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes-Benz (and above BMW) in terms of prestige is BULLSHIT. BULLSHIT. BMW and Mercedes have HISTORY. If we examine this history, we'll see a million things which made these companies great or gave them their name. Motorsport heritage, innovation, safety features, global appeal etc. etc. etc. How can Lexus even be considered on the same level as these two German brands if they don't even satisfy most of these criteria? Global appeal? NONE. Motorsport heritage? NONE. Innovations? FEW. Safety features? RIPPED FROM MERCEDES-BENZ. I was totally pissed off at Lexus when I saw an advertisement where they claimed to have "invented"  their Pre-Crash safety system. Total bullshit. That idea was clearly ripped from Mercedes-Benz. They even copied the name, word-for-word. Mercedes calls their's "PRE-SAFE", Lexus calls theirs "Pre-Crash". How innovative.  Guess what? Pre-Crash has the same features as Pre-Safe from Mercedes, except Lexus added a few of their own ideas to it as well. So, Lexus took an existing idea of Mercedes, improved upon it, and then releases adverts that claim that they invented this system. SCREW YOU LEXUS. :rolleyes:

Yes, Lexus was created for America, there's no denying that and that's the reason they're flopping big time in Europe. Only the sales of the IS are keeping them in the picture, and the IS220d is totally outclassed by the A4, 3er and C-Class diesels. The IS220d doesn't even offer an automatic transmission option. The IS220d doesn't even come with the whole safety package that the IS250 comes with (it only comes with 1/3 of the safety features). Lexus has their whole European market strategy totally messed up.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 10:47:25 AM
How so?

When Lexus started out, they ripped their ideas and philosophy mainly from Mercedes-Benz. They didn't target BMW or Audi (their cars handled way too poorly and had no AWD options AFAIK), their target was clearly the brand with the three-pointed-star. Except since Lexus couldn't compete against Mercedes-Benz on prestige pricing (since they had zilch), they took a different route, the Japanese route: more standard features for less money.

Only now has Lexus begun to develop their own ideals, but you can't deny where their inspiration came from. I believe the founder of Toyota or a high-ranking official, when asked about their Lexus brand said, "The greatest honor for an original (Mercedes-Benz) is a copy (Lexus)."

Enough said.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 10:48:26 AM
Did Lexus have innovate or create like Mercedes or other older brands had too? No. They've had a "bank" support them (Toyota) with money and more money and they simply ripped ideas from Mercedes and other brands. In 1989, there wasn't much to innovate or invent anymore as power steering or automatic transmissions have been around for ages for example.

There's a reason some people claim Lexus have no soul. Because the company has no history and there's evidence that they're not even trying to create history. Lexus to me simply seems to be supplying well-equipped cars to the North American market (mainly) at a cheaper price and that's it. No participation in motorsports, no innovative design features (been ripping the Hoffmeister kink of BMWs lately...), nothing. Lexus = no passion.

Passion is another factor which makes a brand prestigeous. BMW has it. Mercedes has it. Jaguar has it. Heck, even Cadillac has it. Lexus? Nein.

GM didn't invent the automobile and neither did BMW, so can we say every car either of those companies has ever produced is a rip off too? I mean wow, look at that 3-Series! 4 wheels! A trunk! A hood! Windows! A steering wheel! Seats! Holy crap, BMW sucks because they couldn't come up with the concept of the automobile before M-B did! You're right, by the time Toyota had the money to create a luxury division, there really weren't many innovations left. Considering Japan didn't have much of a car industry to begin with, how do you just create one out of thin air overnight? They made hybrids mainstream but let's not mention that because it would go against your anti-Toyota crusade right? And besides the LS, what else did Lexus rip from M-B and other companies? Does M-B suck because the new S-Class looks like a Ford Focus?

Aesthetically they do need some work but their desire to make L-Finesse their design language is a great step in the right direction. Lexus's legacy is to create the highest quality, most comfortable luxury cars around. That is their passion, that is their interpretation of the automobile. You may not care for it but that doesn't mean they lack "soul". It's just not the kind of soul you like or even want to be open minded enough to appreciate.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 28, 2007, 10:47:53 AM
Yes, because they're a luxury brand, right? :rolleyes:

Well, YES! Toyota was inspired by Mercedes-Benz because of their global appeal and reputation. They wanted a piece of the market and hence Lexus was created. They saw that the philosophy at Mercedes-Benz was working and Lexus was Toyota's way emulating that with a few changes here and there.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 28, 2007, 10:47:53 AMYou can't blame Toyota for wanting a bit of the luxury market.  Business is business and they're going to come into the market whether you like it or not, and it is no way an imitation.

I don't blame Toyota for anything, business is business. I blame the notion some people have that Lexus is just as prestigeous as Mercedes and above BMW because that is utter bullshit. I can freely admit that Lexus has their prestige, but let's face it, it can't match up to that of BMW or Mercedes, never.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 11:04:50 AM
When Lexus started out, they ripped their ideas and philosophy mainly from Mercedes-Benz. They didn't target BMW or Audi (their cars handled way too poorly and had no AWD options AFAIK), their target was clearly the brand with the three-pointed-star. Except since Lexus couldn't compete against Mercedes-Benz on prestige pricing (since they had zilch), they took a different route, the Japanese route: more standard features for less money.

Only now has Lexus begun to develop their own ideals, but you can't deny where their inspiration came from. I believe the founder of Toyota or a high-ranking official, when asked about their Lexus brand said, "The greatest honor for an original (Mercedes-Benz) is a copy (Lexus)."

Enough said.

So any company who desires to make the highest quality luxury car possible is ripping off Mercedes. Gotcha.

Wimmer, if you were to launch a luxury brand today from your own backyard, how would you do it? Please enlighten me on how you can do so by using absolutely zero ideas from other auto companies that have been in place for over 100 years.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 11:07:51 AM
GM didn't invent the automobile and neither did BMW, so can we say every car either of those companies has ever produced is a rip off too? I mean wow, look at that 3-Series! 4 wheels! A trunk! A hood! Windows! A steering wheel! Seats! Holy crap, BMW sucks because they couldn't come up with the concept of the automobile before M-B did! You're right, by the time Toyota had the money to create a luxury division, there really weren't many innovations left. Considering Japan didn't have much of a car industry to begin with, how do you just create one out of thin air overnight? They made hybrids mainstream but let's not mention that because it would go against your anti-Toyota crusade right? And besides the LS, what else did Lexus rip from M-B and other companies? Does M-B suck because the new S-Class looks like a Ford Focus?

Where do I claim that other car companies "suck"  because they didn't invent the automobile before Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler did? Where? Please point that out to me.  :rolleyes:

My problem with Lexus is this whole notion that they're on the same level with Mercedes-Benz from a prestige point of view. How often do I have to repeat myself. Mercedes-Benz literally began in 1886, Lexus in 1989. From 1886 until now, Mercedes has brought us many interesting cars, features, classics, innovations in motorsport that filtered down into the mainstream car etc. There's a lot of history between 1886 and 2007. Lexus? 1989-2007. Please tell me things that Lexus has done that would put them on the same level as Mercedes (and above BMW) in terms of prestige. What have they done?

All they did was shake up the US luxury market with cheaper and better equipped and more reliable cars. That hardly justifies the impression that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes. The clueless fanboys who think that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes and then give me some bullshit answer are pissing me off.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 11:07:51 AMAesthetically they do need some work but their desire to make L-Finesse their design language is a great step in the right direction. Lexus's legacy is to create the highest quality, most comfortable luxury cars around. That is their passion, that is their interpretation of the automobile. You may not care for it but that doesn't mean they lack "soul". It's just not the kind of soul you like or even want to be open minded enough to appreciate.

Yes, Lexus is coming out with their own design language and that's a good thing, but it doesn't change the fact that they'll never be on the same level as Mercedes-Benz or Bentley or Rolls Royce etc. when it comes to prestige. Old world luxury cars with a lot of history simply destroy Lexus in that area. Do you think a Bentley customer actually cares about a Lexus? The Lexus might be technically more advanced, it might be more reliable, it might be cheaper, but what does the Lexus name mean in comparison against Bentley or Rolls Royce? It means jack shit here. People who buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce clearly care about the status and the brand image the car gives them, to a high degree, that's also true with shoppers of Mercedes or BMW or Aston Martin or Jaguar. These cars have status because of their history and their achievements. Lexus is achieving at the moment, but their achievements pale in comparison to these old European brands and that's the reason Lexus will never have the status or prestige that the European brands have and will always have due to their history.

And personally I think the L-Finesse design is bland as sin.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 11:10:00 AM
Well, YES! Toyota was inspired by Mercedes-Benz because of their global appeal and reputation. They wanted a piece of the market and hence Lexus was created. They saw that the philosophy at Mercedes-Benz was working and Lexus was Toyota's way emulating that with a few changes here and there.


I don't blame Toyota for anything, business is business. I blame the notion some people have that Lexus is just as prestigeous as Mercedes and above BMW because that is utter bullshit. I can freely admit that Lexus has their prestige, but let's face it, it can't match up to that of BMW or Mercedes, never.

Great Britain has more history than the United States (heck, Americans even "copied" the British) but I think it's clear who has more "prestige" in the world today. The world is ever changing and you can't rest on your laurels or you will get passed by. I'm just surprised that someone of your thinking ability makes such a closed-minded statement such as "it can't match up to that of BMW or Mercedes, never." Wasn't it the M-B CEO that once said Toyota would never ever pass up D-C to take the #3 position in worldwide sales?

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 11:17:24 AM
So any company who desires to make the highest quality luxury car possible is ripping off Mercedes. Gotcha.

I said they started out by ripping ideas from Mercedes and I never said other manufacturers copied Mercedes. There's a rule in business that says that if something is invented, it will be copied.

Yet, BMW started out as a manufacturer of aircraft engines. Cadillac started out as America's first luxury brand along with Duesenberg, Studebaker, Lincoln, Imperial etc. I don't think these companies copied Mercedes directly, they simply started out and did THEIR THING and had their own ideas.

Lexus started out by BLATANTLY COPYING Mercedes-Benz in their philosophy and dare I say some design cues. I always wondered how they got away with the older Lexus GS (Toyota Aristo) which was such a blatant E-Class copy. I'm surprised Mercedes didn't sue them. Heck, even the Lexus names are a blatant copy of the Mercedes numbering and lettering system. :confused:

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 11:17:24 AMWimmer, if you were to launch a luxury brand today from your own backyard, how would you do it? Please enlighten me on how you can do so by using absolutely zero ideas from other auto companies that have been in place for over 100 years.

If I were to launch my own luxury car company today, I would try and come up with my own ideas and try to rip off as little as possible from other brands. That's all I can say, but you're not getting what I am trying to say, obviously. Lexus ripped their early ideas and company philisophy from Mercedes hands down. They achieved their success through this and their own little input.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 11:21:07 AM
Where do I claim that other car companies "suck"  because they didn't invent the automobile before Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler did? Where? Please point that out to me.  :rolleyes:

My problem with Lexus is this whole notion that they're on the same level with Mercedes-Benz from a prestige point of view. How often do I have to repeat myself. Mercedes-Benz literally began in 1886, Lexus in 1989. From 1886 until now, Mercedes has brought us many interesting cars, features, classics, innovations in motorsport that filtered down into the mainstream car etc. There's a lot of history between 1886 and 2007. Lexus? 1989-2007. Please tell me things that Lexus has done that would put them on the same level as Mercedes (and above BMW) in terms of prestige. What have they done?

All they did was shake up the US luxury market with cheaper and better equipped and more reliable cars. That hardly justifies the impression that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes. The clueless fanboys who think that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes and then give me some bullshit answer are pissing me off.

Yes, Lexus is coming out with their own design language and that's a good thing, but it doesn't change the fact that they'll never be on the same level as Mercedes-Benz or Bentley or Rolls Royce etc. when it comes to prestige. Old world luxury cars with a lot of history simply destroy Lexus in that area. Do you think a Bentley customer actually cares about a Lexus? The Lexus might be technically more advanced, it might be more reliable, it might be cheaper, but what does the Lexus name mean in comparison against Bentley or Rolls Royce? It means jack shit here. People who buy a Bentley or Rolls Royce clearly care about the status and the brand image the car gives them, to a high degree, that's also true with shoppers of Mercedes or BMW or Aston Martin or Jaguar. These cars have status because of their history and their achievements. Lexus is achieving at the moment, but their achievements pale in comparison to these old European brands and that's the reason Lexus will never have the status or prestige that the European brands have and will always have due to their history.

And personally I think the L-Finesse design is bland as sin.

Well if we think of it like that, Mercedes will NEVER have the prestige of an Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, or a Ferrari because their accomplishments PALE IN COMPARISON to those companies, and Mercedes will FOREVER be stuck selling taxis and sub 120K cars UNTIL OBLIVION.

The thing is I'm not even a Lexus fan...and M-B's make me puke whenever I see them.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 11:30:03 AM
Well if we think of it like that, Mercedes will NEVER have the prestige of an Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, or a Ferrari because their accomplishments PALE IN COMPARISON to those companies, and Mercedes will FOREVER be stuck selling taxis and sub 120K cars UNTIL OBLIVION.

The thing is I'm not even a Lexus fan...and M-B's make me puke whenever I see them.

Don't you drive an IS350? :lol:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 11:28:07 AM
If I were to launch my own luxury car company today, I would try and come up with my own ideas and try to rip off as little as possible from other brands. That's all I can say, but you're not getting what I am trying to say, obviously. Lexus ripped their early ideas and company philisophy from Mercedes hands down. They achieved their success through this and their own little input.

Much easier said than done, man.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 11:24:31 AM
Great Britain has more history than the United States (heck, Americans even "copied" the British) but I think it's clear who has more "prestige" in the world today. The world is ever changing and you can't rest on your laurels or you will get passed by. I'm just surprised that someone of your thinking ability makes such a closed-minded statement such as "it can't match up to that of BMW or Mercedes, never." Wasn't it the M-B CEO that once said Toyota would never ever pass up D-C to take the #3 position in worldwide sales?

I don't think you're understanding my thinking. My point is always that the past history of Mercedes or BMW has given these companies a prestige advantage over Lexus or any other newcomer. Is Infiniti more prestigeous than BMW simply for offering more reliable, better equipped and cheaper cars? Hell no. When Lexus is 1,000 years old, then Mercedes is 1,100 years old. During this time, you can rest assured that Mercedes will be innovating or bringing products to the market along with Lexus that will increase both their prestige. However, the accumulated prestige will always favor Mercedes because they're older and that gives them the lead. Even if Lexus or Mercedes products in the year 2345 are dead equal to each other, in my mind, Mercedes will always have the edge because of their achievements in an era where Lexus wasn't even around. GET WHAT I AM SAYING?

Here's my thinking in simple terms.

Mercedes-Benz
1886
H
I
S
T
O
R
Y
2007


Lexus
1989
H
I
S
T
O
R
Y
2007

I get that Lexus has less prestige than the others but I don't understand how they're imitating the others anymore. Sure, they're "imitating" by offering a luxury car, but that's about it.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 11:28:07 AM
I said they started out by ripping ideas from Mercedes and I never said other manufacturers copied Mercedes. There's a rule in business that says that if something is invented, it will be copied.

Yet, BMW started out as a manufacturer of aircraft engines. Cadillac started out as America's first luxury brand along with Duesenberg, Studebaker, Lincoln, Imperial etc. I don't think these companies copied Mercedes directly, they simply started out and did THEIR THING and had their own ideas.

Lexus started out by BLATANTLY COPYING Mercedes-Benz in their philosophy and dare I say some design cues. I always wondered how they got away with the older Lexus GS (Toyota Aristo) which was such a blatant E-Class copy. I'm surprised Mercedes didn't sue them. Heck, even the Lexus names are a blatant copy of the Mercedes numbering and lettering system. :confused:

If I were to launch my own luxury car company today, I would try and come up with my own ideas and try to rip off as little as possible from other brands. That's all I can say, but you're not getting what I am trying to say, obviously. Lexus ripped their early ideas and company philisophy from Mercedes hands down. They achieved their success through this and their own little input.

What exactly is M-B's philosophy? Build ugly, overpriced cars that last 2 months before going to the junkyard? I'm not sure about Lexus now, but the original LS was designed to be an engineering marvel which it was for a luxury car.

GS being a blatant E-Class copy? Really?

Lexus GS from 1991:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Lexus-GS-1.jpg/800px-Lexus-GS-1.jpg)

Mercedes E-Class from the same year:

(http://images.consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/autoreview/400x266/1990-95-Mercedes-Benz-300-E-Class-90603191990101.jpg)

What are some of these ideas for your luxury company? If it has 4 wheels, a trunk, a steering wheel, you do realize you're being a blatant copy since the automobile has in place for over 100 years, right? Are they going to ride soft? Mercedes, Buick, and Lexus already have that covered. Sporty RWD? BMW or Infiniti copy. AWD? Audi. FWD? Acura. Come up with an exterior design and I bet I can find at least a dozen cars it's a "blatant copy" of. Every company "rips" off another, yet when any company but Lexus does it, they are "inspired" or "using design cues", yet when Lexus does it, they are "total rip offs".

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 11:30:03 AM
Well if we think of it like that, Mercedes will NEVER have the prestige of an Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, or a Ferrari because their accomplishments PALE IN COMPARISON to those companies, and Mercedes will FOREVER be stuck selling taxis and sub 120K cars UNTIL OBLIVION.

I think I have valid arguments and I am backing them up with my opinions and insights.  :rolleyes:

And FYI, it's the other way around. The achivements of Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce or Ferrari pale in comparison to Daimler-Benz.

And anyone who knows their Mercedes history will know that the taxi aspect was one of the biggest enhancers of their prestige.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 28, 2007, 11:39:39 AM
I get that Lexus has less prestige than the others but I don't understand how they're imitating the others anymore. Sure, they're "imitating" by offering a luxury car, but that's about it.

I said their lately adding their own ideas to their brand. My point was that they started out imitating Mercedes-Benz philosophy.

Quote from: TheIntrepid on April 28, 2007, 11:33:47 AM
Don't you drive an IS350? :lol:

Nope, 2000 Honda Civic that my sister sold me when she went to Iraq after my Sentra got totalled. Looking at a bunch of different cars after I graduate this fall though.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 11:41:17 AM
I said their lately adding their own ideas to their brand. My point was that they started out imitating Mercedes-Benz philosophy.

Sure, selling luxury cars. How is that a bad thing? In that case, every other auto manufacturer, luxury or not, copied MB.

Wimmer, I can't find the essay, but it was originally written in French by a Frenchman.  I just sold my lit book yesterday.  I'm sure it's an easy find in Europe at Borders or Barnes and Noble or whatever you have.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 11:40:33 AM
What exactly is M-B's philosophy? Build ugly, overpriced cars that last 2 months before going to the junkyard? I'm not sure about Lexus now, but the original LS was designed to be an engineering marvel which it was for a luxury car.

GS being a blatant E-Class copy? Really?

Lexus GS from 1991:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Lexus-GS-1.jpg/800px-Lexus-GS-1.jpg)

Mercedes E-Class from the same year:

(http://images.consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/autoreview/400x266/1990-95-Mercedes-Benz-300-E-Class-90603191990101.jpg)

What are some of these ideas for your luxury company? If it has 4 wheels, a trunk, a steering wheel, you do realize you're being a blatant copy since the automobile has in place for over 100 years, right? Are they going to ride soft? Mercedes, Buick, and Lexus already have that covered. Sporty RWD? BMW or Infiniti copy. AWD? Audi. FWD? Acura. Come up with an exterior design and I bet I can find at least a dozen cars it's a "blatant copy" of. Every company "rips" off another, yet when any company but Lexus does it, they are "inspired" or "using design cues", yet when Lexus does it, they are "total rip offs".

Are you getting what I am trying to tell you? I'm wasting my time talking here because you don't seem to get it. I said Lexus started out COPYING Mercedes philosophy and to a degree some design trends. I guess that would also mean Toyota since the Toyota Aristo was a Lexus GS. :rolleyes:

By the way, the fact that Lexus started out using rebadged Toyota's is another reason why their prestige level is not on the same level as Mercedes-Benz, or BMW or Fiat or Citroen or Renault or Alfa Romeo or whatever company that had ORIGINAL designs when they started out.

This is what I am talking about by the way.

(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-E-Class_1999_photo_01.jpg)

(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Lexus-GS300_2004_photo_01.jpg)


You know, some dumbass Lexus fanboys on another forum claimed that Mercedes ripped off the four-eyed design from Lexus. Sure.  :rolleyes:

(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-280_E_1976_photo_01.jpg)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 11:35:42 AM
I don't think you're understanding my thinking. My point is always that the past history of Mercedes or BMW has given these companies a prestige advantage over Lexus or any other newcomer. Is Infiniti more prestigeous than BMW simply for offering more reliable, better equipped and cheaper cars? Hell no. When Lexus is 1,000 years old, then Mercedes is 1,100 years old. During this time, you can rest assured that Mercedes will be innovating or bringing products to the market along with Lexus that will increase both their prestige. However, the accumulated prestige will always favor Mercedes because they're older and that gives them the lead. Even if Lexus or Mercedes products in the year 2345 are dead equal to each other, in my mind, Mercedes will always have the edge because of their achievements in an era where Lexus wasn't even around. GET WHAT I AM SAYING?

Here's my thinking in simple terms.

Mercedes-Benz
1886
H
I
S
T
O
R
Y
2007


Lexus
1989
H
I
S
T
O
R
Y
2007

History alone isn't what determines prestige in my opinion. It's history and what you are doing now that does that but if you're going to judge a company based on what they have or have not done the last 100 years, be my guest.

They aren't really rebadged Toyotas because they're just  based on the same platform but have totally different interiors and exteriors.

And one more thing.

Lexus is also incredibly overrated in some regards. I like how the press praises the IS for a "quality interior" when in reality, the IS interior is hunk of cheap plastics mixed together and colored silver to give the impression of a sporty quality interior. Doesn't work on me. I've sat in this car at a Lexus show and the interior screamed cheap as shit to me. I'm no dashstroaker, but the IS is overrated in that department. The only car in this class with an even worse interior is the BMW 3-Series. Heck, the IS has a better interior than the 3er, but it's still cheap as crap.

Also, I recently sat in the new LS460 at the local Toyota-Lexus dealership, but I was not allowed to take pictures of the car inside or out. Anyway, compared to the Audi A8 or the S-Class, the LS interior is also overrated, heavily overrated. Cheap plastics in a tacky silver color and a terrible design too that lacks any sort of elegance most buyers demand in this class.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 11:48:22 AM
History alone isn't what determines prestige in my opinion. It's history and what you are doing now that does that but if you're going to judge a company based on what they have or have not done the last 100 years, be my guest.

Current history is also important, but let's face it, the past history and achievements of Mercedes or BMW etc. and their current achievements are giving them a big edge over Lexus.

DO YOU AGREE? :rolleyes:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 11:54:34 AM
Current history is also important, but let's face it, the past history and achievements of Mercedes or BMW etc. and their current achievements are giving them a big edge over Lexus.

DO YOU AGREE? :rolleyes:

No, not really. I'm more interested in what the company is doing now, not what they've done 100 years before.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 11:46:29 AM
Are you getting what I am trying to tell you? I'm wasting my time talking here because you don't seem to get it. I said Lexus started out COPYING Mercedes philosophy and to a degree some design trends. I guess that would also mean Toyota since the Toyota Aristo was a Lexus GS. :rolleyes:

By the way, the fact that Lexus started out using rebadged Toyota's is another reason why their prestige level is not on the same level as Mercedes-Benz, or BMW or Fiat or Citroen or Renault or Alfa Romeo or whatever company that had ORIGINAL designs when they started out.

This is what I am talking about by the way.

(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-E-Class_1999_photo_01.jpg)

(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Lexus-GS300_2004_photo_01.jpg)


You know, some dumbass Lexus fanboys on another forum claimed that Mercedes ripped off the four-eyed design from Lexus. Sure.  :rolleyes:

(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-280_E_1976_photo_01.jpg)

Actually I must be one of those dumbass Lexus fanboys (who doesn't even really like Lexus) because I still don't get what you're trying to say. What M-B philosophies did Lexus "rip off"? As for the GS, this car came out before that E-Class did:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/SC400.jpg)

You don't think maybe they were trying to create a single design language across the board, do you? Oh wait, scratch that, since it's Lexus everything they do is a rip off.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 28, 2007, 11:48:30 AM
They aren't really rebadged Toyotas because they're just  based on the same platform but have totally different interiors and exteriors.

This is what they started out as.

Wow, this company is so prestigeous... :rolleyes:

TOYOTA
(http://www.automarket.bg/wallpaper/toyota_Altezza_Gita_1.jpg)

LEXUS
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Lexus-IS300_SportDesign_Edition_2004_photo_04.jpg)


TOYOTA
(http://www.japcar.ru/autowallpapers/toyota_aristo_800x600_2.jpg)

LEXUS
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Lexus-GS300_2004_photo_01.jpg)


TOYOTA
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Toyota-Land_Cruiser_5d_2003_photo_01.jpg)

LEXUS
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Lexus-GX470_2003_photo_02.jpg)


TOYOTA
(http://autooboz.omega.kz/foto/toyota/toyota_celsior(2000).jpg)

LEXUS
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Lexus-LS430_2001_photo_04.jpg)


TOYOTA
(http://www.abbotsfordjapanauto.com/images/celsior-003_cover.jpg)

LEXUS
(http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/Lexus1stGen/Images/LeftFront.jpg)



TOYOTA
(http://www.japancar.ru/data/images/_baseauto/001081/in1151284207-25336_drtxt.jpg)

LEXUS
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a7/LC_LX_450.JPG)


TOYOTA
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/2004_Toyota_Land_Cruiser.jpg)

LEXUS
(http://intorg.netfirms.com/Cars1/00_lx470/lx6.jpg)


DID I MISS ANYTHING?

Quote from: Raghavan on April 28, 2007, 11:55:33 AM
No, not really. I'm more interested in what the company is doing now, not what they've done 100 years before.

So just because Lexus is doing good now, they are on the same level as BMW or Mercedes?  :rolleyes:

That's exactly what I am trying to discredit because that is simply not true. The achievements of the past are a major source of where a companies prestige comes from. These guys had to start out too and they did it in style etc.

Casio watches are more reliable, easier to use and cheaper than Rolex watches. Casio's outsell Rolex watches by the millions. Is Casio more prestigeous than Rolex? Is Casio on the same prestige level with Rolex? NO.

Same damn thing with Lexus and Mercedes.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 11:54:34 AM
Current history is also important, but let's face it, the past history and achievements of Mercedes or BMW etc. and their current achievements are giving them a big edge over Lexus.

DO YOU AGREE? :rolleyes:

No I don't agree. I would attribute this "big edge" over Lexus on a worldwide level to more expressive design and a larger number of trim and engine choices. Most buyers of these cars could care less what that company did 100 or even 10 years ago. If they don't have the car optioned out in the manner that customers want now, they'll go elsewhere. All Lexus has to do, IMHO, is offer more variety and bolder exterior design and their worldwide sales will increase dramatically. Toyota is finally starting to make headway in Europe and was one of the top selling brands in Australia too, I believe.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 11:59:20 AM
Actually I must be one of those dumbass Lexus fanboys (who doesn't even really like Lexus) because I still don't get what you're trying to say. What M-B philosophies did Lexus "rip off"? As for the GS, this car came out before that E-Class did:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/SC400.jpg)

You don't think maybe they were trying to create a single design language across the board, do you? Oh wait, scratch that, since it's Lexus everything they do is a rip off.

Ummm, the second generation Toyota Aristo, excuse me, Lexus GS, came out in 1998. The W210 E-Class, it's direct competitor, was released to the public in 1996 (and I'm talking Europe). Basically two years before the Lexus GS. Yeah, Lexus came out first with this design....excuse me, Toyota.... :rolleyes:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:07:11 PM
So just because Lexus is doing good now, they are on the same level as BMW or Mercedes?  :rolleyes:

That's exactly what I am trying to discredit because that is simply not true. The achievements of the past are a major source of where a companies prestige comes from. These guys had to start out too and they did it in style etc.

Casio watches are more reliable, easier to use and cheaper than Rolex watches. Casio's outsell Rolex watches by the millions. Is Casio more prestigeous than Rolex? Is Casio on the same prestige level with Rolex? NO.

Same damn thing with Lexus and Mercedes.

GM has more history than Toyota, yet Toyota is now #1. I'd say most people would equate Toyota at the very least being on the same level as GM, if not higher.

Your Casio/Rolex comparison is terrible because Rolexes cost thousands more than Casios and they're targeted to different markets.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:10:53 PM
Ummm, the second generation Toyota Aristo, excuse me, Lexus GS, came out in 1998. The W210 E-Class, it's direct competitor, was released to the public in 1996 (and I'm talking Europe). Basically two years before the Lexus GS. Yeah, Lexus came out first with this design....excuse me, Toyota.... :rolleyes:

But that SC came out before that E class.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:07:51 PM
No I don't agree. I would attribute this "big edge" over Lexus on a worldwide level to more expressive design and a larger number of trim and engine choices. Most buyers of these cars could care less what that company did 100 or even 10 years ago. If they don't have the car optioned out in the manner that customers want now, they'll go elsewhere. All Lexus has to do, IMHO, is offer more variety and bolder exterior design and their worldwide sales will increase dramatically. Toyota is finally starting to make headway in Europe and was one of the top selling brands in Australia too, I believe.

Most buyers these days care more about value, true. But that still doesn't put Lexus on the same level as BMW or Mercedes. What's so hard about understanding that?

Also, global success for this brand won't happen overnight. Lexus sales are poor in Europe not only because they offer zero engine and trim choices, their cars don't appeal to Europeans. Someone with money in Europe wants to spend their cash on a known luxury car with brand image. And Lexus doesn't fit the bill. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Lexus flopping in Japan too? I did a case study on Japan once in college for a market entry project and one of the discoveries was that the wealthy Japanese are very image conscious. In terms of practical luxury cars, that means mostly BMW, Cadillac, Jaguar and Mercedes. I guess we can add Audi to that list nowadays as well. Lexus? Not even on the list.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:10:53 PM
Ummm, the second generation Toyota Aristo, excuse me, Lexus GS, came out in 1998. The W210 E-Class, it's direct competitor, was released to the public in 1996 (and I'm talking Europe). Basically two years before the Lexus GS. Yeah, Lexus came out first with this design....excuse me, Toyota.... :rolleyes:

Actually the 2nd generation GS came out in 1997.

And I'm sorry, it's this condescending attitude that makes me have a difficult time loving German cars. There are a few I like but it's the snobbish owners who think anything that is non-German is below them that really piss me off. I don't blame Raza one bit, despite our philisophical differences, for never buying a BMW. No matter how good the cars are, the owners really rub s**t all over the brand.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:12:38 PM
GM has more history than Toyota, yet Toyota is now #1. I'd say most people would equate Toyota at the very least being on the same level as GM, if not higher.

Your Casio/Rolex comparison is terrible because Rolexes cost thousands more than Casios and they're targeted to different markets.

Most people without a clue of GM's history (or Toyota) would equate Toyota as being on the same level as GM. Same deal with the luxury cars we're discussing. I think car enthusiasts would think differently, especially real enthusiasts.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:15:12 PM
Most buyers these days care more about value, true. But that still doesn't put Lexus on the same level as BMW or Mercedes. What's so hard about understanding that?

Also, global success for this brand won't happen overnight. Lexus sales are poor in Europe not only because they offer zero engine and trim choices, their cars don't appeal to Europeans. Someone with money in Europe wants to spend their cash on a known luxury car with brand image. And Lexus doesn't fit the bill. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Lexus flopping in Japan too? I did a case study on Japan once in college for a market entry project and one of the discoveries was that the wealthy Japanese are very image conscious. In terms of practical luxury cars, that means mostly BMW, Cadillac, Jaguar and Mercedes. I guess we can add Audi to that list nowadays as well. Lexus? Not even on the list.

So you're basing the tastes of Japanese luxury car owners on the fact that Lexus is about 1 year old in Japan. Sound research I'd say.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:17:56 PM
Most people without a clue of GM's history (or Toyota) would equate Toyota as being on the same level as GM. Same deal with the luxury cars we're discussing. I think car enthusiasts would think differently, especially real enthusiasts.

Right, real enthusiasts who condemn others for car choices different from their own. People that we all want to be just like.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 28, 2007, 12:13:46 PM
But that SC came out before that E class.

You're forgetting that the W124 E-Class came out in 1985. The moment this car is released, the designer immediately begin concept drawings of the next generation model (the W210). It's safe to say that they weren't even aware of the Toyota Soarer / Lexus SC300/400.

Either way, this came out when Lexus wasn't even around yet. Look at the headlights... :rolleyes:

(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-280_E_1976_photo_01.jpg)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:22:22 PM
You're forgetting that the W124 E-Class came out in 1985. The moment this car is released, the designer immediately begin concept drawings of the next generation model (the W210). It's safe to say that they weren't even aware of the Toyota Soarer / Lexus SC300/400.

Either way, this came out when Lexus wasn't even around yet. Look at the headlights... :rolleyes:

(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-280_E_1976_photo_01.jpg)

They're rectangular. :huh:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:22:22 PM
You're forgetting that the W124 E-Class came out in 1985. The moment this car is released, the designer immediately begin concept drawings of the next generation model (the W210). It's safe to say that they weren't even aware of the Toyota Soarer / Lexus SC300/400.

Either way, this came out when Lexus wasn't even around yet. Look at the headlights... :rolleyes:

(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-280_E_1976_photo_01.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/70/XJ6_S2_1980.jpg)

And this came out in 1973. Who's copying who now?

:lol:

Wait wait, I have more.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Bmw_e21_bc_v_sst.jpg/800px-Bmw_e21_bc_v_sst.jpg)

1975.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/BMW-E36-sedan.jpg/800px-BMW-E36-sedan.jpg)

1992.

I see that all car manufacturers are original and have never "borrowed" design cues from another, ever.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:16:43 PM
Actually the 2nd generation GS came out in 1997.

And I'm sorry, it's this condescending attitude that makes me have a difficult time loving German cars. There are a few I like but it's the snobbish owners who think anything that is non-German is below them that really piss me off. I don't blame Raza one bit, despite our philisophical differences, for never buying a BMW. No matter how good the cars are, the owners really rub s**t all over the brand.

What's wrong with pointing out the truth? The early Lexus' were rebadged Toyota's. And now people are telling me that Lexus is on the same prestige level as Mercedes and above BMW? LMAO.  :rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm loosing my cool because I simply don't agree that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes and above BMW. BMW has more history and has achieved more during their existence than Lexus. Lexus has had it so easy. They carefully studied the luxury market in the US before entering it and hence their success. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a cheaper car with more options will sell better. That has been one of Lexus' strongest points and one of the major reasons their cars sell.

And thanks for thinking I am some snobby aristocratic European...  :rolleyes:

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:18:31 PM
So you're basing the tastes of Japanese luxury car owners on the fact that Lexus is about 1 year old in Japan. Sound research I'd say.

Let's put it this way. In time, Lexus will probably appeal more and more to the Japanese. But the Japanese still associate "foreign products" as more luxurious, especially a company like Mercedes or BMW who have a powerful and prestigeous history.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 28, 2007, 12:23:10 PM
They're rectangular. :huh:

(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9753/untitled1cv9.jpg)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:27:19 PM
And thanks for thinking I am some snobby aristocratic European... :rolleyes:

No offense, but it's kind of true. All you've been doing is putting down Lexus. OK, so they didn't have it as hard as MB, but according to you, if history and prestige is all that matters, then how'd Lexus become so popular? No one would've bought their stuff because according to you, they have no prestige or history, and the fact that they succeeded is no small feat, no matter what you think.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:27:19 PM
What's wrong with pointing out the truth? The early Lexus' were rebadged Toyota's. And now people are telling me that Lexus is on the same prestige level as Mercedes and above BMW? LMAO.  :rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm loosing my cool because I simply don't agree that Lexus is on the same level as Mercedes and above BMW. BMW has more history and has achieved more during their existence than Lexus. Lexus has had it so easy. They carefully studied the luxury market in the US before entering it and hence their success. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a cheaper car with more options will sell better. That has been one of Lexus' strongest points and one of the major reasons their cars sell.

And thanks for thinking I am some snobby aristocratic European...  :rolleyes:

So if Lexus cars are rebadged Toyotas, are you insinuating that Toyota had it easy? They originally made textiles, their home country was nuked twice, and had to overcome a reputation of cheap, poorly built, throwaway cars for years. Toyota/Lexus has had anything but an easy path. People want to think of Toyota and Lexus as the same when it's convenient to support their argument, separate them when it's not. Which is it?

Wimmer, read your posts and find a reason why someone might NOT think you're a "snobby aristocratic European".

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:24:38 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/70/XJ6_S2_1980.jpg)

And this came out in 1973. Who's copying who now?

Ah, you want to play this silly game? Ok.  :rolleyes:

1951
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-300_S_1951_photo_02.jpg)

1954
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-220_a_1954_photo_01.jpg)

Is that a three-pointed-star on the hood? :rolleyes:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:28:32 PM
Let's put it this way. In time, Lexus will probably appeal more and more to the Japanese. But the Japanese still associate "foreign products" as more luxurious, especially a company like Mercedes or BMW who have a powerful and prestigeous history.

I'm sure they will. By the way, how is VW doing in Japan?

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:34:42 PM
Ah, you want to play this silly game? Ok.  :rolleyes:

1951
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-300_S_1951_photo_02.jpg)

1954
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-220_a_1954_photo_01.jpg)

Is that a three-pointed-star on the hood? :rolleyes:

So does that make Jaguar a rip off of M-B?

Quote from: Raghavan on April 28, 2007, 12:33:42 PM
No offense, but it's kind of true. All you've been doing is putting down Lexus. OK, so they didn't have it as hard as MB, but according to you, if history and prestige is all that matters, then how'd Lexus become so popular? No one would've bought their stuff because according to you, they have no prestige or history, and the fact that they succeeded is no small feat, no matter what you think.

I don't think I've been really putting down Lexus in this thread. Like I said earlier, they studied the American luxury market before they entered. They studied the technical and service mistakes and faults of the Europeans. They priced their cars right. They offered more for less money. They made sure they hired friendly folks for their dealers. They made sure the dealership waiting lounge had condom dispensors, a coffee machine and God knows what else ( :tounge:). Doesn't take a genius to figure out why they did so well in the US.

Now take Lexus in Europe. Better equipped and cheaper. They're flopping. European customers with the money to spend rank Lexus down there with Cadillac. Last on the shopping list.

And about the LS600h, let's be honest. 330 liters of trunk space and 200 kg of load capacity? That's just embarassing and somewhat of a rip off. No wait, it is a rip off. What happens when an overweight American who lives next to Burger King or MacDonalds wants to buy this car and bring his fat and overweight wive and kids along?  :lol:

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:33:59 PM
So if Lexus cars are rebadged Toyotas, are you insinuating that Toyota had it easy? They originally made textiles, their home country was nuked twice, and had to overcome a reputation of cheap, poorly built, throwaway cars for years. Toyota/Lexus has had anything but an easy path. People want to think of Toyota and Lexus as the same when it's convenient to support their argument, separate them when it's not. Which is it?

Wimmer, read your posts and find a reason why someone might NOT think you're a "snobby aristocratic European".

Well then, how about BMW or Mercedes-Benz then? After World War II, over 75% of Mercedes factories were bombed. BMW lost one of their largest production facilities in East Germany to the Soviets. Both BMW and Mercedes-Benz were on the verge of bankruptcy. Both BMW and Mercedes used slave labor. The same thing applied to Toyota. Their factories were bombed, they used POW's or slaves in horrible working conditons and they were on the verge of bankruptcy (well into the early 1950s). All three of these companies were stuck in the shit after World War II.  :rolleyes:

I'm trying to be objective and non-biased here and I think I am doing a decent job. I am backing up my claims as to why I think Lexus doesn't compare in terms of prestige.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:35:24 PM
I'm sure they will. By the way, how is VW doing in Japan?

No idea. If you're hinting at their performance compared to Toyota, then without question, Toyota is leading sales in Japan.

Same thing in Germany: VWs outsell Toyota's in this market big time.

Domestic first.

Not the case with luxury cars in Japan it seems.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:34:42 PM
Ah, you want to play this silly game? Ok. :rolleyes:

1951
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-300_S_1951_photo_02.jpg)

1954
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-220_a_1954_photo_01.jpg)

Is that a three-pointed-star on the hood? :rolleyes:

Those look more like foglights instead of real 4 eyed designs.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:36:14 PM
So does that make Jaguar a rip off of M-B?

Of course not.

But I find it extremely hard to believe that Toyota came up with the front of their Aristo just like that, especially when they were watching Mercedes closely at the time in question (for their Lexus brand). And let's not forget, the Japanese have never been original in terms of design with a few exceptions. Notice how the Japanese cars in the 1950s until the early 1980s were virtually inspired by American designs, in small cases European.

The Toyota 2000GT was designed by a German for God's sake (Albrecht Goertz), originally for Datsun I believe. Datsun refused to build it, but Toyota snapped up the design.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:43:54 PM
Well then, how about BMW or Mercedes-Benz then? After World War II, over 75% of Mercedes factories were bombed. BMW lost one of their largest production facilities in East Germany to the Soviets. Both BMW and Mercedes-Benz were on the verge of bankruptcy. Both BMW and Mercedes used slave labor. The same thing applied to Toyota. Their factories were bombed, they used POW's or slaves in horrible working conditons and they were on the verge of bankruptcy (well into the early 1950s). All three of these companies were stuck in the shit after World War II.  :rolleyes:

I'm trying to be objective and non-biased here and I think I am doing a decent job. I am backing up my claims as to why I think Lexus doesn't compare in terms of prestige.  :rolleyes:

Mercedes had an automotive history for 50 years prior to that. Germany was also already a highly industrialized nation for many years prior. I'm not a fan of Japan the country but they were pretty traditional prior to the war.

And no, you haven't been very objective or non-biased in this thread. You do have some points but refuse to acknowledge anyone else's who doesn't agree with you. Like I said before, I really liked reading your articles on C&D and Automobear awhile back and thought you had a great future in the automotive industry but this new Wimmer sounds like nothing more than an advertisement for Mercedes and anything anti-Toyota/Lexus.

Quote from: Raghavan on April 28, 2007, 12:48:10 PM
Those look more like foglights instead of real 4 eyed designs.

Does it matter? They're positioned so close together the design could pass for a four eyed look.

Like I said, it's a silly game. I did back up my opinion and thoughts on the Toyota Aristo / Lexus GS in my last post.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:45:30 PM

No idea. If you're hinting at their performance compared to Toyota, then without question, Toyota is leading sales in Japan.

Same thing in Germany: VWs outsell Toyota's in this market big time.

Domestic first.

Not the case with luxury cars in Japan it seems.

Maybe because prior to last year there were no Japanese luxury cars in Japan in the first place?

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:50:29 PM
Mercedes had an automotive history for 50 years prior to that. Germany was also already a highly industrialized nation for many years prior. I'm not a fan of Japan the country but they were pretty traditional prior to the war.

And no, you haven't been very objective or non-biased in this thread. You do have some points but refuse to acknowledge anyone else's who doesn't agree with you. Like I said before, I really liked reading your articles on C&D and Automobear awhile back and thought you had a great future in the automotive industry but this new Wimmer sounds like nothing more than an advertisement for Mercedes and anything anti-Toyota/Lexus.

Germany was virtually bombed to ruins by 1945 and the occupying Allies forbade mass industrialization until well into the mid to late 1950s (ever hear of the Wirtschaftswunder?).

My refusing to accept your or other ideas has to do with me being convinced of own beliefs. And I think I've backed up enough WHY I think this. Lexus is a great brand and their future is bright, but so is BMW or Mercedes. And both BMW and Mercedes have a past history Lexus can never hope to match. Do you agree?

Lexus can only match the current history of these brands and yes they're doing well, but BMW and Mercedes are improving from the dark days of the mid 1990s and the future looks bright for all three.

Despite this, BMW and Mercedes still have the edge in terms of history and thus prestige. My logic. Especially since their past achievements are something most carmakers would envy. You agree?

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:49:39 PM
Of course not.

But I find it extremely hard to believe that Toyota came up with the front of their Aristo just like that, especially when they were watching Mercedes closely at the time in question (for their Lexus brand). And let's not forget, the Japanese have never been original in terms of design with a few exceptions. Notice how the Japanese cars in the 1950s until the early 1980s were virtually inspired by American designs, in small cases European.

The Toyota 2000GT was designed by a German for God's sake (Albrecht Goertz), originally for Datsun I believe. Datsun refused to build it, but Toyota snapped up the design.

Yet you didn't acknowledge the picture of the SC which had a "4 headlight" design. The new Mustang was designed by a Vietnamese man, and the latest Viper was designed by an Asian guy as well. Pininfarina had a Japanese guy work there for a number of years. Does that mean they're Asian designs?

And when cars from manufacturers in the same country or region start to look alike, is that any better than a company from another country "ripping off" the design?

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:51:29 PM
Maybe because prior to last year there were no Japanese luxury cars in Japan in the first place?

I think Lexus will catch on eventually, but let's face it, the Japanese are amongst some of the most image conscious luxury car buyers in the world and that's a big problem for Lexus or any other new luxury brand.

There was an article about a year ago on Business Week about how the wealthy Japanese, despite the appealing techno gadgetry in their Lexus', still prefer mostly German luxury cars simply because they feel that these cars are a demonstration of status, power and prestige. Why? Because the history of say Mercedes of BMW is well known globally, especially of the former. Can a Lexus offer the same thing in Japan for example? Status? Probably not. Power? An expensive car, but "cheap" compared to its German competition. Prestige. Absolutely not. Too new and unproven. The least a Lexus can do in Japan is make his owner feel good that he has a car that is better equipped and cheaper than the German competition.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 12:54:26 PM
Germany was virtually bombed to ruins by 1945 and the occupying Allies forbade mass industrialization until well into the mid to late 1950s (ever hear of the Wirtschaftswunder?).

My refusing to accept your or other ideas has to do with me being convinced of own beliefs. And I think I've backed up enough WHY I think this. Lexus is a great brand and their future is bright, but so is BMW or Mercedes. And both BMW and Mercedes have a past history Lexus can never hope to match. Do you agree?

Lexus can only match the current history of these brands and yes they're doing well, but BMW and Mercedes are improving from the dark days of the mid 1990s and the future looks bright for all three.

Despite this, BMW and Mercedes still have the edge in terms of history and thus prestige. My logic. Especially since their past achievements are something most carmakers would envy. You agree?

I agree all 3 manufacturers have bright futures. Yes, Lexus at this point in time cannot match M-B and BMW's history simply because they were around longer and the German marques have made great contributions to the automobile industry. However, I don't agree that Lexus/Toyota will NEVER match because you don't know what automotive technologies have yet to be discovered. You don't know what products they have coming down the pipeline. And at this point there isn't much that separates the 3 companies in the segments they compete in. A few more features or creases here and there and either one can be the top dog. But the past is the past. I don't live in the past and I don't think alot of people do or want to. The future is where it's at and that's what everyone is pushing to be successful in.

In my opinion, history does not equate to prestige. In my opinion, there is a double standard because the US/German manufacturers can rip off whatever designs they want, yet when a Japanese or Korean company does the same thing, their entire existence is is a lie, a fake, a copy.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:56:37 PM
Yet you didn't acknowledge the picture of the SC which had a "4 headlight" design. The new Mustang was designed by a Vietnamese man, and the latest Viper was designed by an Asian guy as well. Pininfarina had a Japanese guy work there for a number of years. Does that mean they're Asian designs?

And when cars from manufacturers in the same country or region start to look alike, is that any better than a company from another country "ripping off" the design?

What's there to say about the Lexus SC? It's got a four eyed design with the biggest difference being the two central lights, which are circular. The outer two are not.

I don't usually accuse other carmakers of copying. I personally think it is silly and childish, honestly. But in the case of the Toyota Aristo / Lexus GS, it just smells suspicious and I've given my reasons why. During this time, Lexus was still watching Mercedes very closely.

Does it matter which country the designer came from? Many of the Mercedes' in the 1960s and 1970s were designed by Paul Bracq, a Frenchman. Beginning in the 1980s until around 1999, Bruno Sacco took over (an Italian). The current Mercedes design chief, Peter Pfeiffer, is German. And yet, a Mercedes W123 from 1976 is referred to as "Germanic / Teutonic" looking.

The new Ford Mustang still looks like a typical "American retro design", despite a Vietnamese guy having styled it as you claim. The Toyota 2000 GT looks very European if you have not noticed, almost like an Opel GT. I don't know what I am trying to say with that last sentence... :tounge:

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 01:04:18 PM
I agree all 3 manufacturers have bright futures. Yes, Lexus at this point in time cannot match M-B and BMW's history simply because they were around longer and the German marques have made great contributions to the automobile industry. However, I don't agree that Lexus/Toyota will NEVER match because you don't know what automotive technologies have yet to be discovered. You don't know what products they have coming down the pipeline. And at this point there isn't much that separates the 3 companies in the segments they compete in. A few more features or creases here and there and either one can be the top dog. But the past is the past. I don't live in the past and I don't think alot of people do or want to. The future is where it's at and that's what everyone is pushing to be successful in.

In my opinion, history does not equate to prestige. In my opinion, there is a double standard because the US/German manufacturers can rip off whatever designs they want, yet when a Japanese or Korean company does the same thing, their entire existence is is a lie, a fake, a copy.

Think of it this way. I even said this earlier. Let's say Lexus matches BMW and Mercedes in the year 2050. On a prestige scale of 10, everyone has a 10 right now, just as an example.


It's...

Lexus 10/10

BMW 10/10

Mercedes 10/10


But, BMW and Mercedes have been around much longer than Lexus. So we look back into time and we...

1) Factor in a classic 1954 BMW 502 V8 sedan for example.

or

2) For Mercedes, we factor in the top three victory placings in the 1938 Grand Prix de Tripoli (1st: lang, 2nd: von Brauchitsch, 3rd: Caracciola).


Now the prestige scale looks like this:

Lexus 10/10

BMW 11/10

Mercedes 11/10


Repeat this with other achievements and you instantly have Lexus left behind big time in the overall prestige department. That's basically much of what I was trying to say.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 01:04:43 PM
What's there to say about the Lexus SC? It's got a four eyed design with the biggest difference being the two central lights, which are circular. The outer two are not.

I don't usually accuse other carmakers of copying. I personally think it is silly and childish, honestly. But in the case of the Toyota Aristo / Lexus GS, it just smells suspicious and I've given my reasons why. During this time, Lexus was still watching Mercedes very closely.

Does it matter which country the designer came from? Many of the Mercedes' in the 1960s and 1970s were designed by Paul Bracq, a Frenchman. Beginning in the 1980s until around 1999, Bruno Sacco took over (an Italian). The current Mercedes design chief, Peter Pfeiffer, is German. And yet, a Mercedes W123 from 1976 is referred to as "Germanic / Teutonic" looking.

The new Ford Mustang still looks like a typical "American retro design", despite a Vietnamese guy having styled it as you claim. The Toyota 2000 GT looks very European if you have not noticed, almost like an Opel GT. I don't know what I am trying to say with that last sentence... :tounge:

I give up, you're right, Lexus copied the E-Class to a T. Wheels, windshield, windows, and even the logo. All M-B designs are totally original and they have never copied off of anyone, ever.

If the country of origin of the designer doesn't matter, why did you bring up the fact that the 2000GT was penned by a German?

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 01:12:22 PM
Think of it this way. I even said this earlier. Let's say Lexus matches BMW and Mercedes in the year 2050. On a prestige scale of 10, everyone has a 10 right now, just as an example.


It's...

Lexus 10/10

BMW 10/10

Mercedes 10/10


But, BMW and Mercedes have been around much longer than Lexus. So we look back into time and we...

1) Factor in a classic 1954 BMW 502 V8 sedan for example.

or

2) For Mercedes, we factor in the top three victory placings in the 1938 Grand Prix de Tripoli (1st: lang, 2nd: von Brauchitsch, 3rd: Caracciola).


Now the prestige scale looks like this:

Lexus 10/10

BMW 11/10

Mercedes 11/10


Repeat this with other achievements and you instantly have Lexus left behind big time in the overall prestige department. That's basically much of what I was trying to say.

History, yes. Prestige, no. A monkey might be my ancestor but I'm not going to sit here and bow down to one all day just because they came out first.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 01:15:30 PM
I give up, you're right, Lexus copied the E-Class to a T. Wheels, windshield, windows, and even the logo. All M-B designs are totally original and they have never copied off of anyone, ever.

Ok, now you're really acting like a kid.  :devil:

Like I said, I am hardly someone to accuse certain carmakers of copying others. I might say "This design reminds me of ____ from this angle...", but that's it. One of my few exceptions is here with the Lexus GS. I am convinced that Toyota was inspired by the W210 E-Class.

From this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Lexus-GS-1.jpg/800px-Lexus-GS-1.jpg)

To this in 1998, two years after the W210 E-Class debuted. It just reeks of suspicion. Maybe the 2nd generation GS was supposed to look like an evolution of the 1st generation GS. "
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Lexus-GS.jpg/800px-Lexus-GS.jpg)

"But what's that? A new Mercedes, and one that will compete with our GS. Hey, maybe we should change the headlight design of our GS so people are slightly reminded of this new E-Class. Might help sales!?"  :devil:

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 01:15:30 PM
If the country of origin of the designer doesn't matter, why did you bring up the fact that the 2000GT was penned by a German?

Because I wanted to sound like a smartass.  :ohyeah:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 01:21:24 PM
Ok, now you're really acting like a kid.  :devil:

Like I said, I am hardly someone to accuse certain carmakers of copying others. I might say "This design reminds me of ____ from this angle...", but that's it. One of my few exceptions is here with the Lexus GS. I am convinced that Toyota was inspired by the W210 E-Class.

From this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Lexus-GS-1.jpg/800px-Lexus-GS-1.jpg)

To this in 1998, two years after the W210 E-Class debuted. It just reeks of suspicion. Maybe the 2nd generation GS was supposed to look like an evolution of the 1st generation GS. "
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Lexus-GS.jpg/800px-Lexus-GS.jpg)

"But what's that? A new Mercedes, and one that will compete with our GS. Hey, maybe we should change the headlight design of our GS so people are slightly reminded of this new E-Class. Might help sales!?"  :devil:


Because I wanted to sound like a smartass.  :ohyeah:

Actually you are one to accuse companies of copying off of others. Whenever the subject of Toyota/Lexus pops up, that's all you ever say. That GS came out in 97 by the way, and the SC which I believe it was inspired from (was even built on the same platform) came out before that E-Class did.

So now you're calling me a kid yet you're trying to defend your hypocritical statements by simply saying you were a smartass. I suppose that works.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 01:19:16 PM
History, yes. Prestige, no. A monkey might be my ancestor but I'm not going to sit here and bow down to one all day just because they came out first.

Again, you don't seem to understand what I am trying to say.

This car when it came out stunned the world for example, even America. It gave Mercedes a lot of prestige.
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-540_K_Luxury_Roadster_1937_photo_01.jpg)

The same can be said about the first generation LS400 (a car which I like, incidentally) and certainly the GS450h, LS460 and LS600h and just maybe the IS350 and IS-F. But, open your history books on Mercedes-Benz and look what else they had. While these cars add a degree of prestige to the Lexus brand, Mercedes has hundreds of cars and achievements in the past that give them the edge in this department.

Past history is important to prestige, as is current. But Lexus has no great past achievements so to speak off before 1989, and thus their prestige is simply not equal to that off Mercedes, BMW etc.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 01:25:25 PM
Actually you are one to accuse companies of copying off of others. Whenever the subject of Toyota/Lexus pops up, that's all you ever say. That GS came out in 97 by the way, and the SC which I believe it was inspired from (was even built on the same platform) came out before that E-Class did.

Have we not already established that Jaguar kicked off the whole four headlight design crap in 1971? Or was it that 1951 Mercedes 300 Cabrio?  :rolleyes:  :huh:

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 01:25:25 PMSo now you're calling me a kid yet you're trying to defend your hypocritical statements by simply saying you were a smartass. I suppose that works.

Did you see that...what do we call them? Smiley next to it? :rolleyes:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 01:26:02 PM
Again, you don't seem to understand what I am trying to say.

This car when it came out stunned the world, even America. It gave Mercedes a lot of prestige.
(http://photo.netcarshow.com/Mercedes-Benz-540_K_Luxury_Roadster_1937_photo_01.jpg)

The same can be said about the first generation LS400 (a car which I like, incidentally) and certainly the GS450h, LS460 and LS600h and just maybe the IS350 and IS-F. But, open your history books on Mercedes-Benz and look what else they had. While these cars add a degree of prestige to the Lexus brand, Mercedes has hundreds of cars and achievements in the past that give them the edge in this department.

Past history is important to prestige, as is current. But Lexus has no great past achievements so to speak off before 1989, and thus their prestige is simply not equal to that off Mercedes, BMW etc.

That's great but I don't see any difference between that car and any other that came out in the early 1900's. Seems like everyone was copying that design. Either way, what does that have to do with the brand now? I can't drive the car you just showed, there are cars today that look alot better and go alot faster, handle nicer too, so what does that have to do with the average luxury car buyer's purchase decision? Mercedes will always have more HISTORY. I'll agree with that. But that car you showed has nothing to do with whether a person will buy an S-Class or an LS and the fact that the LS competes in the same segment as the S-Class and does so very well is why I believe they have similar prestige.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 28, 2007, 01:28:14 PM

Have we not already established that Jaguar kicked off the whole four headlight design crap in 1971? Or was it that 1951 Mercedes 300 Cabrio?  :rolleyes:  :huh:


Did you see that...what do we call them? Smiley next to it? :rolleyes:

If Lexus copied M-B, then so did Jaguar. If Lexus is a copycat brand, so is Jaguar. That we can agree on then, yes? Or because one of us hates Lexus, we can brand them whatever we want?

So smilies, rolling eyes, and "hey I was being a smartass!" are your responses to questions you can't or won't answer. Yet you push your point and refuse to listen to anyone else's.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 01:31:44 PM
That's great but I don't see any difference between that car and any other that came out in the early 1900's. Seems like everyone was copying that design. Either way, what does that have to do with the brand now? I can't drive the car you just showed, there are cars today that look alot better and go alot faster, handle nicer too, so what does that have to do with the average luxury car buyer's purchase decision? Mercedes will always have more HISTORY. I'll agree with that. But that car you showed has nothing to do with whether a person will buy an S-Class or an LS and the fact that the LS competes in the same segment as the S-Class and does so very well is why I believe they have similar prestige.

The car I posted was a simple example of what Mercedes offered in the past. That 1937 540K Roadster I posted today is a classic car with an estimated price ranging well into the $1.5 million dollar region. It was exclusive for its time and featured unheard of technology such as activating the supercharger while the car was in motion (provided you were driving under 100 km/h), and it certainly is very exclusive today. A car like this enhances a company's prestige - and Mercedes has tons of classic cars, whether it be mainstream or motorsport, that have enhanced the company's prestige. And this is why Lexus simply cannot compete in terms of history and thus current overall prestige. Lexus is a prestigeous company, but it is not, I repeat, NOT, on the same prestige level as Mercedes-Benz. Period.

I'm going to log off now. Dead tired. Been fun arguing with you. Let's continue tomorrow.  :devil:

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 01:37:09 PM
If Lexus copied M-B, then so did Jaguar. If Lexus is a copycat brand, so is Jaguar. That we can agree on then, yes? Or because one of us hates Lexus, we can brand them whatever we want?

I don't exactly hate Lexus. Competition is good, makes the others improve their products. I'd never buy a Lexus for my personal needs because the cars don't appeal to me. They seem to be made for those who want total isolation from the outside world. I prefer the blend between sport and luxury in most Mercedes'.

Plus I don't need self-parking.  :evildude:

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 01:37:09 PMSo smilies, rolling eyes, and "hey I was being a smartass!" are your responses to questions you can't or won't answer. Yet you push your point and refuse to listen to anyone else's.

I refuse to accept your view because you seem to be ignoring the past achivements of BMW or Mercedes. That's my whole point. The past achievements give these two the edge over Lexus in overall prestige.

Good night!

I read this, and noticed a few things:

1. BMW pwns.
2. Wimmer's just as biased against Lexus, as he is towards MB
3. Wimmer, do you seriously think anyone who buys a Benz actually knows jack shit about the 540K, or Stirling Moss, or the Mille Miglia, or Targa Florio? I think not.
4. Lexus does indeed have motorsports in their accomplishments.
5. Mercedes' aren't exactly the sportiest things around. I bet an IS350 is sportier than a C-class.

All in all, it's a useless battle, with bullshit arguments. Keep in mind that I actually like MB a lot more than Lexus.

Oh yeah, and I read that the 8-speed is an improvement. I think the 7G-Tronic is just an improvement over the first ZF 6AT, which was in turn an improvement over a 5AT, and so on.

Quote from: ro51092 on April 28, 2007, 01:55:20 PM
I read this, and noticed a few things:

1. BMW pwns.
2. Wimmer's just as biased against Lexus, as he is towards MB
3. Wimmer, do you seriously think anyone who buys a Benz actually knows jack shit about the 540K, or Stirling Moss, or the Mille Miglia, or Targa Florio? I think not.
4. Lexus does indeed have motorsports in their accomplishments.
5. Mercedes' aren't exactly the sportiest things around. I bet an IS350 is sportier than a C-class.

All in all, it's a useless battle, with bullshit arguments. Keep in mind that I actually like MB a lot more than Lexus.

#1.  :praise:
#2. Duh  :lol:
#3. No, very few buyers do.  As someone who has come from a family of Mercedes, and as someone who loves them dearly, my knowledge only scratches the surface (and I know a lot!)
#4. Lexus barely has a motorsport history.  Mercedes, BMW and Audi are eons ahead of them in that department.
#5. Nearly every Mercedes built today is more of a drivers car than it's Lexus counterpart.

Quote from: Submariner on April 28, 2007, 02:01:42 PM
#1.  :praise:
#2. Duh  :lol:
#3. No, very few buyers do.  As someone who has come from a family of Mercedes, and as someone who loves them dearly, my knowledge only scratches the surface (and I know a lot!)
#4. Lexus barely has a motorsport history.  Mercedes, BMW and Audi are eons ahead of them in that department.
#5. Nearly every Mercedes built today is more of a drivers car than it's Lexus counterpart.

4. If Lexus = Toyota like so many suggest, shouldn't we include Toyota's racing history as well?
5. Nearly every Lexus built today is more comfortable and reliable than its Mercedes counterpart and nearly every BMW built today is more of a driver's car than it's M-B counterpart. Shouldn't make M-B's any less of cars IMHO. Different target markets.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 02:47:04 PM
4. If Lexus = Toyota like so many suggest, shouldn't we include Toyota's racing history as well?
5. Nearly every Lexus built today is more comfortable and reliable than its Mercedes counterpart and nearly every BMW built today is more of a driver's car than it's M-B counterpart. Shouldn't make M-B's any less of cars IMHO. Different target markets.

Fixed.

Quote from: ro51092 on April 28, 2007, 02:59:00 PM
Fixed.

After extensive wheel time in both the E-65 760 and the W-220 S-600, I can safely say the S-class is more of the drivers car. 

I'm not being biased here.  I adore BMW's too, but I just feel that the E-65 is less of the drivers car. 

Do you have a 760i or a 760Li? If you have an Li, you have an E66. Dumbass.  :rolleyes:



:lol:

Quote from: ro51092 on April 28, 2007, 04:04:33 PM
Do you have a 760i or a 760Li? If you have an Li, you have an E66. Dumbass.  :rolleyes:



:lol:

My parents had an Li

I was just testing to see if you knew you're BMW chassis codes.  ;)








:rolleyes: :lol:

:P

Ro51092 knows as much about BMW as Wimmer does about Benz, and I do about...


























Toyota :mask:

What was the only Japanese car used in a James Bond movie?

2000GT

Which is simply a stunning vehicle, Jaguar rip-off or not.

Quote from: ro51092 on April 28, 2007, 04:55:26 PM
What was the only Japanese car used in a James Bond movie?

Toyota 2000GT

Nah nah nanna boo boo

I beat you

Oh. My bad. :mask:

(http://www.mmjp.or.jp/60srace/2000GTHosoya2.jpg)

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 09:47:32 AM
Outside of the rear tail light from the side profile view, how else is the LS a "blatant 7-Series" imitation? So basically Lexus is an imitation brand based off of 1 car? I see...in that case, is the latest S-Class a "blatant imitation" of the Ford Focus? I mean good lord, look at those headlights! The wheel arches! Rip off! I'll have to find pictures, but there is an M-B SUV that looks strikingly similar "proportionally" to the Toyota Highlander as well.

First of all, you have to be blind to claim that the LS doesn't bear an enormous resemblance to the E65 7-Series... the side profiles are almost identical.

Second, I didn't say that makes "an imitation based off of 1 car", I haven't put words into your mouth, and I would appreciate the same courtesy.

Quote from: HurricaneSteve on April 28, 2007, 12:16:43 PM
I don't blame Raza one bit, despite our philisophical differences, for never buying a BMW. No matter how good the cars are, the owners really rub s**t all over the brand.

:rolleyes:

I would love to see someone actually prove this, because, myself excluded (as I cannot judge my own character), the current and former BMW owners on this forum are some of the nicer guys on here.

Man, how did I get drawn back into this?

Quote from: 850CSi on April 28, 2007, 07:50:36 PM
:rolleyes:

I would love to see someone actually prove this, because, myself excluded (as I cannot judge my own character), the current and former BMW owners on this forum are some of the nicer guys on here.

Personally, I think you're a huge douche-bag.  :evildude:

Quote from: 850CSi on April 28, 2007, 07:50:36 PM
:rolleyes:

I would love to see someone actually prove this, because, myself excluded (as I cannot judge my own character), the current and former BMW owners on this forum are some of the nicer guys on here.

You've never ever seen another BMW on the road, have you?

I haven't noticed that BMW drivers have any worse attitudes than other luxury car buyers.

Quote from: JYODER240 on April 28, 2007, 08:55:05 PM
I haven't noticed that BMW drivers have any worse attitudes than other luxury car buyers.

I have a few stories...

Quote from: Submariner on April 28, 2007, 09:00:40 PM
I have a few stories...

Of course, but i'm sure there's just as many stories with Lexus, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc drivers.

Quote from: Submariner on April 28, 2007, 09:00:40 PM
I have a few stories...

You're a BMW driver dude.

A prick is going to be a prick, whether they drive a BMW or a Daewoo.

Quote from: chevyguy06 on April 28, 2007, 10:14:54 PM
A prick is going to be a prick, whether they drive a BMW or a Daewoo.

BMWs give people a sense of entitlement.  They feel it's their right to be an asshole.  And the exercise it.

I wouldn't think it would just be BMWs, but luxury car drivers in general. It's not like BMWs are the ultimate cars.

Quote from: chevyguy06 on April 28, 2007, 10:29:10 PM
I wouldn't think it would just be BMWs, but luxury car drivers in general. It's not like BMWs are the ultimate cars.

It's the worst with BMW drivers.

I don't really think it is...like someone said before, you're going to have nice BMW drivers and asshole BMW drivers. It's not based on what car you drive, but just that person in general.

If you really judge someone based on the brand of car they drive, you're either a fucking stupid moron or a douchebag. Take your pick.

Quote from: Raza ?link=topic=8718.msg432853#msg432853 date=1177812706
You've never ever seen another BMW on the road, have you?

No, never. I live on a farm and there isn't a single BMW for hundreds of miles.

Quote from: Raza ?link=topic=8718.msg433015#msg433015 date=1177820440
BMWs give people a sense of entitlement.? They feel it's their right to be an asshole.? And the exercise it.

And owning a Mercedes or any other expensive prestige-brand car doesn't.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote from: 850CSi on April 28, 2007, 11:27:18 PM
And owning a Mercedes or any other expensive prestige-brand car doesn't.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Nothing like the assholeishness involved with owning a BMW.

Quote from: ro51092 on April 28, 2007, 01:55:20 PM
3. Wimmer, do you seriously think anyone who buys a Benz actually knows jack shit about the 540K, or Stirling Moss, or the Mille Miglia, or Targa Florio? I think not.

I don't expect them to know these things. For the record, I am just mentioning past achievements of Mercedes to demonstrate how they have more prestige than Lexus. Always have and always will. It's that simple to me.

Quote from: ro51092 on April 28, 2007, 01:55:20 PM5. Mercedes' aren't exactly the sportiest things around. I bet an IS350 is sportier than a C-class.

Are you talking about the W203 or W204? Because the W204 is pretty improved in the sports department while still offering impressive comfort. The W203 C-Class sold well, despite being very unsporty prior to the facelift.

Quote from: ro51092 on April 28, 2007, 01:56:29 PM
Oh yeah, and I read that the 8-speed is an improvement. I think the 7G-Tronic is just an improvement over the first ZF 6AT, which was in turn an improvement over a 5AT, and so on.

Adding another cog to a transmission is not an innovation, it's an improvement. I thought I said that earlier?  :confused:

The invention of the automatic transmission (I think that honor goes to Cadillac) was an innovation. The adding of extra gear cogs isn't.

Marketers of the world are all delighting in the fact that everyone is licking up their propaganda.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 29, 2007, 12:10:28 PM
Adding another cog to a transmission is not an innovation, it's an improvement. I thought I said that earlier?  :confused:

The invention of the automatic transmission (I think that honor goes to Cadillac) was an innovation. The adding of extra gear cogs isn't.

Then, other than stuff like PRE-SAFE and other BS like that, what has Mercedes innovated in the last 10 years?

BTW, I think MB is more prestigious than Lexus, but most people around here don't think so. Maybe it's because the interiors on Lexuses look nice compared to the MB's?

(http://www.lexus.com/lexus-share/images/gallery/models/GX/photos/interior/g_int1.jpg)
versus
(http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/MercedesML350/Images/Dash.jpg)

(Personally, I don't care, and I think they both look awesome, but people tell me about how awesome Lexus interiors are.)

Quote from: ro51092 on April 29, 2007, 12:39:43 PM
Then, other than stuff like PRE-SAFE and other BS like that, what has Mercedes innovated in the last 10 years?

BTW, I think MB is more prestigious than Lexus, but most people around here don't think so. Maybe it's because the interiors on Lexuses look nice compared to the MB's?

(Personally, I don't care, and I think they both look awesome, but people tell me about how awesome Lexus interiors are.)

Mercedes has done a lot over the last 10 years, I'm too tired to name them all but let's just mention PRE-SAFE, BLUETEC and NANOLACK for now.

Lexus interiors are some of the most overrated in the industry. I personally think the only beautiful Lexus interior is fund in the GS and ES. They look HQ. The LS460, which I recently checked out seems cheap as hell compared to the GS. Don't get me started on the IS. :devil:

BTW, basing prestige on interiors is pretty stupid.

FYI ro51092, Lexus interiors are awesome!  I don't know if anybody has ever told you that before, so now you know.




:lol:

What the hell is NANOLACK?

Quote from: ro51092 on April 29, 2007, 12:44:46 PM
What the hell is NANOLACK?

It's a scratch resistant paint process, IIRC.


That blue S class AMG posted a few days back had it.

Quote from: ro51092 on April 29, 2007, 12:44:46 PM
What the hell is NANOLACK?

Nanolack is a more resistant (to scratches and microscopic tears) car coloring laquer. It debuted on the facelifted E-Class if I recall correctly.

For some reason, all the links I get in Google are in German. Can you read German?  :devil:

Didn't Nissan come out with something like that a few years ago?
(http://www.pickuptruck.com/IMAGES/stories/nails/nails_l_001.jpg)

The Nails concept.

Quote from: ro51092 on April 29, 2007, 12:57:32 PM
Didn't Nissan come out with something like that a few years ago?
(http://www.pickuptruck.com/IMAGES/stories/nails/nails_l_001.jpg)

The Nails concept.

What does this car have to do with scratch resistant metal lacquer?  :P

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 29, 2007, 12:49:37 PM

For some reason, all the links I get in Google are in German.

Because no-one outside Germany has ever heard of it  :devil:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 29, 2007, 01:22:31 PM
What does this car have to do with scratch resistant metal lacquer?  :P

Because that car had that paint thing in like 2000.

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on April 29, 2007, 04:20:53 PM
Because no-one outside Germany has ever heard of it :devil:

:lol:

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on April 29, 2007, 04:20:53 PM
Because no-one outside Germany has ever heard of it  :devil:

Tell me about it. Bunch of 3rd world countries. :devil:

Quote from: ro51092 on April 29, 2007, 04:22:01 PM
Because that car had that paint thing in like 2000.

Impossible. You're talking about Nissan here! :rolleyes:

:devil: :devil: :devil:

:lol:

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 30, 2007, 06:07:26 AM
Impossible. You're talking about Nissan here! :rolleyes:

:devil: :devil: :devil:

:lol:

INFINITI 2010!!!   :rockon:

Actually I remember the thread back at C&D about Nissan's scratch resistant paint and its implications.

Though they sound similar in concept, and purpose, Nissan's and Mercedes's approach to scratch resistance are entirely OPPOSITE solutions to the same problem.  Nissan's idea is quite a bit more sci-fi and cool sounding.

Mercedes scratch resistant paint is basically really hard coating.  It is very rigid (after it dries) and works to prevent scratches from happening.

"Microscopically small ceramic particles provide a layer of protection. Remarkable advances in the area of nano-technology have allowed tiny ceramic particles - each less than a millionth of a millimetre in size - to be integrated into the molecular structure of the binding agent. These particles float around freely at first in the liquid clearcoat, before cross-linking as the drying process takes effect. The particles link in with one another in such a way as to create an extremely dense and smoothly structured network at the paint surface. This provides a protective layer and ensures that the new nano-particle clearcoat is considerably more scratch-resistant than conventional paintwork. "


Nissan takes the opposite approach.  Instead of making the coating super hard, coating is actually elastic and can repair itself over time. 

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2005/_STORY/051202-01-e.html

"?Scratch Guard Coat? contains a newly developed high elastic resin that helps prevent scratches from affecting the inner layers of a car?s painted surface. With ?Scratch Guard Coat? a car?s scratched surface will return to its original state anywhere from one day to a week, depending on temperature and the depth of the scratch."

It's available on the JDM X-trail SUV

http://www2.nissan.co.jp/X-TRAIL/T30/0512/SCRATCH/index.html

That's just plain cool.  Too bad the Japanese keep the best stuff for themselves.

Quote from: cawimmer430 on April 30, 2007, 06:05:26 AM
Tell me about it. Bunch of 3rd world countries. :devil:

THE THIRD REICH. :mask:

I don't know if this has been posted here (I am too lazy to read through all the posts), but C&D recorded significantly better acceleration times for the LS600h L than the LS460 in their latest issue.

Quote from: LonghornTX on April 30, 2007, 05:04:45 PM
I don't know if this has been posted here (I am too lazy to read through all the posts), but C&D recorded significantly better acceleration times for the LS600h L than the LS460 in their latest issue.

(http://eit.utoledo.edu/LSG/Images/thumbs_up.jpg)

What he means to say was; do you want a cookie? :lol:

(http://images2.auction123.com/sizequalitypredef/20056880-7278-49f5-b496-8ef4569b80d3/WDDNG79XX7A121235/01.jpg?webimage001l)

(http://www.mbusa.com/media/images/main/models/gallery/photo_gallery/s/sedan_ext_5_main.jpg)

(http://www.speedsportlife.com/photopost/data/672/medium/2007_Mercedes-Benz_Saks_Fif.jpg)

Face it: The new S is a grand slam.

Exactly, Benz Boy.
(http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/2006_bmw_alpina_b7.jpg)

Not to hijack the thread, but I have to post pics of my favorite sedan of all time:

(http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/100-greatest/03-large/15-bentley-arnage-rl.jpg)

(http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/dennis/20061206/11/1791487585-bentley-arnage.jpg)

(http://www.krystal-limousines.com/images/BentleyInterior.jpg)

(http://www.ecacp.com/inventory/productimages/t-3353741054B-3_big.jpg)

I'll take an Anarge T in either black or red and this in pearl white:

(http://autos.rnr.id.au/MotorShow06/Bentley_Azure.jpg)

Arnage :wub:

Arnage!!! :wub: :wub: :wub:

Quote from: BENZ BOY15 on April 30, 2007, 11:01:50 PM
[img]
Face it: The new S is a grand slam.

Too bad it's ugly.

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on May 01, 2007, 05:16:42 PM
Too bad it's ugly.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on May 01, 2007, 05:16:42 PM
Too bad it's ugly.

This coming from someone who drives a SEAT!? :devil: :devil: :devil:

(http://www.connox.de/media/elmar-floetotto/easy_chair/easy_chair_schwarz_original.jpg)

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 02, 2007, 12:35:28 PM
This coming from someone who drives a SEAT!? :devil: :devil: :devil:

(http://www.connox.de/media/elmar-floetotto/easy_chair/easy_chair_schwarz_original.jpg)

:evildude:     :mask:

The 02-04 E65 is more of a drivers car then the same generation 01-04 MB S class. So I strongly disagree with you.

Quote from: Submariner on April 28, 2007, 03:32:03 PM
I'm not being biased here.? I adore BMW's too, but I just feel that the E-65 is less of the drivers car.?

Quote from: 1 BAD 7 on May 05, 2007, 01:19:51 PM
The 02-04 E65 is more of a drivers car then the same generation 01-04 MB S class. So I strongly disagree with you.

Maybe if you add some 22" wheels it is.

No it will be far better if we add more heavy 14 inch ones to it :evildude:

Quote from: JYODER240 on May 05, 2007, 01:20:46 PM
Maybe if you add some 22" wheels it is.