GM has released some teaser Pics of the New Camaro.
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2016-chevrolet-camaro-teased-at-naias-four-other-new-models-to-be-revealed-this-year-91176.html#agal_2 (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/2016-chevrolet-camaro-teased-at-naias-four-other-new-models-to-be-revealed-this-year-91176.html#agal_2)
Will it come with a periscope? The windows look even smaller, vertically, than the current car.
Quote from: MX793 on January 19, 2015, 06:44:45 PM
Will it come with a periscope? The windows look even smaller, vertically, than the current car.
Yeah it looks like there will be no improvement visibility wise.
More spy pics.
http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/2016-chevrolet-camaro-first-spy-photos-news#1 (http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/2016-chevrolet-camaro-first-spy-photos-news#1)
Looks like this rendering pretty much nailed it (the tires are too narrow though).
Definitely looks smaller. I think it looks sharp, and the look has definitely been toned down to be more subtle, which I think was the best way to go. It's also a bit surprising considering what the C7 went in the opposite direction. It's a bit tricky in what to do with retro styling and I think this is a much better job than what Ford did with the Mustang. Add in the move to a smaller platform and the new LT1 and BOOM.
(http://i1.minus.com/ibc0L2w2bxVQjL.jpg)
The front bumper cover in the teaser pic looks really aggressive! I hope that's for V8 models only!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on January 19, 2015, 07:03:38 PM
The front bumper cover in the teaser pic looks really aggressive! I hope that's for V8 models only!
Its probably the new Ecotec 4-cylinder model. They need to compete with the Ecoboost Mustang.
BLAH! Keep the base front bumper for 6 and 4 cylinder models.
Wasn't this in the last transformers movie?
Ugh, those vents in front of the rear wheel look awful. So tacky.
Can someone just post the teaser picture so I don't have to go through the whole gallery on my phone?
Images are blocked here, but they should have went 80s retro. 928 style rear hatch and all.
Quote from: r0tor on January 20, 2015, 05:49:36 AM
Wasn't this in the last transformers movie?
No. That was a current gen Camaro with a squinty grill and some other superficial body bits.
Stylistically, that differs from this how?
Quote from: r0tor on January 20, 2015, 11:16:13 AM
Stylistically, that differs from this how?
Bigger, different platform.
Quote from: r0tor on January 20, 2015, 11:16:13 AM
Stylistically, that differs from this how?
In every way pretty much.
Except for the lack of visibility
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 20, 2015, 10:09:42 AM
Images are blocked here, but they should have went 80s retro. 928 style rear hatch and all.
:nutty:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on January 20, 2015, 03:33:29 PM
:nutty:
I liked the gen 3 Camaro. It was one of the aesthetic bright spots of the early to mid 80s.
Quote from: MX793 on January 20, 2015, 04:19:17 PM
I liked the gen 3 Camaro. It was one of the aesthetic bright spots of the early to mid 80s.
Me too! But we all know Americans DO NOT buy hatchbacks!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on January 20, 2015, 08:39:41 PM
Me too! But we all know Americans DO NOT buy hatchbacks!
It's not a hatchback, it's a lift back. Same as the Corvette.
Quote from: MX793 on January 21, 2015, 04:44:53 AM
It's not a hatchback, it's a lift back. Same as the Corvette.
Tomato Tomahto.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on January 21, 2015, 06:25:46 AM
Tomato Tomahto.
And Americans love SUVs, which are all proper hatchbacks.
Quote from: MX793 on January 21, 2015, 06:32:21 AM
And Americans love SUVs, which are all proper hatchbacks.
wagons. :lol:
Quote from: MX793 on January 20, 2015, 04:19:17 PM
I liked the gen 3 Camaro. It was one of the aesthetic bright spots of the early to mid 80s.
IROC-Z :rockon:
Quote from: SVT666 on January 21, 2015, 08:39:20 AM
No, there is a big difference.
Break it down for me? Corvette,3rd and 4th gen F Bodies,Fox Body Mustangs and 928/944 Posches (As Sporty mentioned) were all hatchbacks so how is a Liftback any different? Unless you're referring to Rear/Mid Engined cars like the F40.
Here's what I found in a quick search of Liftback vs Hatchback... :huh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatchback (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatchback)
Marketing.. hatchback = econocar while liftback = sporty coupe.
Exactly.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on January 21, 2015, 11:45:46 AM
Break it down for me? Corvette,3rd and 4th gen F Bodies,Fox Body Mustangs and 928/944 Posches (As Sporty mentioned) were all hatchbacks so how is a Liftback any different? Unless you're referring to Rear/Mid Engined cars like the F40.
The difference is body style. One is a, for lack of a better term, a wagon, while the other is a coupe or has a coupe like roofline. If you don't want to distinguish between them, then coupe and wagon are the same as well.
(http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/hatchbacks/1104_2012_hyundai_accent_look/36577101/2012-hyundai-accent-hatchback-side-view-with-hatch-open.jpg)
(http://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/03/12/5521ac7c-2f15-4e4f-a5a1-17013a9d6cc8/resize/770x578/d93f0403ab71f239e0e4c245a57ec81a/2014audirs7quattro25.jpg)
Oooh, pointy. :rolleyes:
(http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/classified-ads/47259d1250607276-2002-acura-rsx-red-power-cold-ac1.jpg)
And this is a hatchback :huh:...
marketing..
In the end they're all hatchbacks. It's like calling a Hood an Engine Cover.....
GM boss says "ZL1 satisfaction" from 2016 Camaro SS (http://www.torquenews.com/106/gm-boss-promises-zl1-satisfaction-next-gen-camaro-ss).
That means 0-60 in ~4.0 sec, 1/4 mile in the lows 12s, and MagneRide control. Whatever follows (ZL1, Z28) is gonna be monster. I'd much rather see an "LT7" Camaro (L88?) with ~550-575 N/A hp though.
I never saw the point of two FR cars but whatever...
The Rustang GT "dominace" will be short lived!
Quote from: GoCougs on February 07, 2015, 11:38:35 PM
GM boss says "ZL1 satisfaction" from 2016 Camaro SS (http://www.torquenews.com/106/gm-boss-promises-zl1-satisfaction-next-gen-camaro-ss).
That means 0-60 in ~4.0 sec, 1/4 mile in the lows 12s, and MagneRide control. Whatever follows (ZL1, Z28) is gonna be monster. I'd much rather see an "LT7" Camaro (L88?) with ~550-575 N/A hp though.
QuoteThe 2016 Chevrolet Camaro is rumored to debut at the Detroit Auto Show in January, so hopefully we will only be waiting and speculating for another model or so.
Did I miss something :confused:.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on February 08, 2015, 10:01:14 AM
The Rustang GT "dominace" will be short lived!
"Dominance" of course = sorta catching up to the seven-year-old Camaro ;).
Until GM addresses the low rent interior and horrible outward visibility, being a bit faster isn't going to be enough to topple the Mustang. The new Mustang still doesn't quite match up to the outgoing Camaro in performance, yet it still frequently is held up as the better overall car. Based on the mules, they've done little to address the gunslit windows. We'll see how they managed with the interior.
And LOL at thinking the new SS will match the outgoing ZL1. "Satisfaction" is not performance. I agree with much of the article's speculation. LT-1 power, optional magne-ride (likely part of the 1LE package) and likely Brembos. It'll be quicker than the current car and the 1LE package should offer all of the on-track performance of the current 1LE without the compromise of on-road harshness if fitted with magne-ride. I'm not sure just how much lighter to expect. It'll be a force to be reckoned with, no doubt. But not ZL1 level. ZL1 handling with straight line performance somewhere above but closer to the current car than the ZL1.
So how do you mean topple? The Since '09 the Camaro has been the better seller and the better performer.
If they do use the 460 hp LT1 and get the Camaro to 3,400-3,500 lbs, yes, it will about match ZL1 performance (that's the base C7's stats and it about matches ZL1 in performance).
I highly doubt it will be 3400-3500 lbs. Based on the ATS-V, probably more like 3700 lbs.
Quote from: MX793 on February 08, 2015, 02:30:34 PM
I highly doubt it will be 3400-3500 lbs. Based on the ATS-V, probably more like 3700 lbs.
The 3.6L V6 ATS Coupe with AT is shown at 3,530 lbs. Swap out the luxury/NVH bits for a bit beefier chassis/drive line, swap out AT for MT, swap out DOHC V6 for pooprod V8, and 3,400-3,500 lb is IMO realistic.
IMO the ATS-V is too heavy for comparison (turbo stuff + associated HW).
Quote from: GoCougs on February 08, 2015, 12:19:56 PM
"Dominance" of course = sorta catching up to the seven-year-old Camaro ;).
My point exactly!!! :cheers:
Camaro and Mustang have gotten to a point where they are fast enough. I just want kickass steering feel now.
Another reveal (3 o'clock position). Looking smaller and more svelte with a front end that isn't nearly so blunt. Most renderings though show a rear window that doesn't look right but we'll know soon - rumored to debut next month and the NYIAS.
(http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/cms/autos/Boldride/Chevy-Cars.jpg)
The Rustangs time is coming to an end!
Quote from: GoCougs on March 06, 2015, 08:52:36 AM
(http://media.zenfs.com/en-US/cms/autos/Boldride/Chevy-Cars.jpg)
Tough to be a GM fan these days, their newest, baddest vette gets owned by an 8 yr old gtr.
Then they get their d!cks kicked in at the detroit auto show with the unveiling of the GT, Raptor and GT350. Followed a couple weeks later with the Focus RS.
This lineup will probably look best kept in this dark lighting, what a boring, blob-like looking bunch.
Ford vs GM is soooo 1950's. Why do the two keep bickering as the rest of the automotive world passes them by.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 07, 2015, 05:59:43 PM
Ford vs GM is soooo 1950's. Why do the two keep bickering as the rest of the automotive world passes them by.
Ford isn't being passed by.
Yes. Lap 2 after the car has gone into limp mode.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 07, 2015, 05:59:43 PM
Ford vs GM is soooo 1950's. Why do the two keep bickering as the rest of the automotive world passes them by.
Yep, agreed.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 07, 2015, 07:52:27 PM
Yes. Lap 2 after the car has gone into limp mode.
:deadhorse" You better hope the new GT doesn't get creamed by the Z06.......
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on March 07, 2015, 05:59:43 PM
Ford vs GM is soooo 1950's. Why do the two keep bickering as the rest of the automotive world passes them by.
Last I checked GM was very competitive! From the Caddys on down to the Chevys! They just won TOTY also.
Quote from: SVT32V on March 07, 2015, 05:46:06 PM
Tough to be a GM fan these days, their newest, baddest vette gets owned by an 8 yr old gtr.
Then they get their d!cks kicked in at the detroit auto show with the unveiling of the GT, Raptor and GT350. Followed a couple weeks later with the Focus RS.
This lineup will probably look best kept in this dark lighting, what a boring, blob-like looking bunch.
The GTR that beat the Z06 was a 150K Nismo version of the GTR that uses CURRANT tech. :huh: As far as debuts GM doesn't have a lot this year but soes that make them any less of a company! :rolleyes: In the past couple years GM has debut plenty of nice cars like the C7/Z06, CTS-V/ATS-V, All new full size trucks and SUVs, and All new mid size Pickups!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on March 07, 2015, 08:27:18 PM
:deadhorse" You better hope the new GT doesn't get creamed by the Z06.......
The Z06 just gets slower and slower with every lap, so the chances of that are non-existent.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 07, 2015, 08:33:50 PM
The Z06 just gets slower and slower with every lap, so the chances of that are non-existent.
Time will tell my good friend! Time will tell...... :cheers:
Quote from: SVT32V on March 07, 2015, 05:46:06 PM
Tough to be a GM fan these days, their newest, baddest vette gets owned by an 8 yr old gtr.
Then they get their d!cks kicked in at the detroit auto show with the unveiling of the GT, Raptor and GT350. Followed a couple weeks later with the Focus RS.
This lineup will probably look best kept in this dark lighting, what a boring, blob-like looking bunch.
No, not really. The C7 Z06 is a C6 ZR1 + 10% for 30% less cost. That was always its goal and it does it supremely well, gets loads of accolades, and it's selling like hotcakes as a result.
Meh, GM doesn't really care those cars. Sure they're sorta interesting but those don't advance brands in any material manner, esp. given their lack of scalability (trying to repair/elevate EcoBoost image doesn't count).
GM is simply building more and better performance vehicles in total, esp. those that count. The new Camaro in all its incarnations and the upcoming ZR1 are going to be tough on Ford fanboys of delicate constitution.
And c'mon, bro, trying to dangle the Focus RS as a carrot? That's more than telling. But really, either way, punching walls ain't gonna help your cause. GM is out in front and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on March 07, 2015, 08:27:18 PM
:deadhorse" You better hope the new GT doesn't get creamed by the Z06......
Well considering the previous GT couldn't best the vastly cheaper C6 Z06 (and got murdered by the moderately cheaper ZR1), yeah, Ford fanboys should be hoping. And whatever the new ZR1 is, wow, that's gonna be rough on them.
Quote from: SVT666 on January 21, 2015, 12:29:01 PM
The difference is body style. One is a, for lack of a better term, a wagon, while the other is a coupe or has a coupe like roofline. If you don't want to distinguish between them, then coupe and wagon are the same as well.
(http://image.motortrend.com/f/roadtests/hatchbacks/1104_2012_hyundai_accent_look/36577101/2012-hyundai-accent-hatchback-side-view-with-hatch-open.jpg)
(http://cnet2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2014/03/12/5521ac7c-2f15-4e4f-a5a1-17013a9d6cc8/resize/770x578/d93f0403ab71f239e0e4c245a57ec81a/2014audirs7quattro25.jpg)
Where is the coupe in this post, I see 2 hatchbacks
My Z is a hatchback
The back has a hatch
Hatch
Back
Doesn't matter what the angle of the hatch is. "Liftback" is a marketing term that died in 1989... its a subclass of hatchback.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 07, 2015, 09:42:32 PM
Well considering the previous GT couldn't best the vastly cheaper C6 Z06 (and got murdered by the moderately cheaper ZR1), yeah, Ford fanboys should be hoping. And whatever the new ZR1 is, wow, that's gonna be rough on them.
Exactly! :cheers:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on March 06, 2015, 02:34:38 PM
The Rustangs time is coming to an end!
The GT350R begs to differ.
Quote from: thecarnut on March 08, 2015, 12:48:33 PM
The GT350R begs to differ.
We will see! I'm willing to bet it's no faster than the currant Z28....
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on March 08, 2015, 12:56:09 PM
We will see! I'm willing to bet it's no faster than the currant Z28....
How much? :mrcool:
Chevy release audio of the Camaro's LT1. Damn this sounds good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPsj-8Xke3M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPsj-8Xke3M)
Apparently it's a fair bit different from the Corvette. 20% different packaging. Completely different headers.
The 5/16 unveiling date doesn't correspond with any major auto show. With an unveiling that late in the year, this thing may not show up at dealers until November or December. Unless Chevy's trying to keep things as quiet as possible as late as possible so Ford doesn't have a chance to respond with any kind of sophomore enhancements to the 2016 Mustang.
Sounds damn good!
Another Teaser....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdQ3VTczVaY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdQ3VTczVaY)
Oh, boy, this is gonna be huge. Sure looks smaller. Still not a big fan of any of the recent renderings but if they can hold the line - ~3,500 lbs, 460 hp, under $35k - it's a game changer for the whole of the auto industry.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 20, 2015, 09:10:41 PM
Oh, boy, this is gonna be huge. Sure looks smaller. Still not a big fan of any of the recent renderings but if they can hold the line - ~3,500 lbs, 460 hp, under $35k - it's a game changer for the whole of the auto industry.
No, it won't be a game changer. These are niche vehicles.
This is just the rumormill, but damn I hope it's true.
http://www.hotrod.com/news/1503-exclusive-we-have-performance-numbers-on-the-2016-chevrolet-camaro-zl2/ (http://www.hotrod.com/news/1503-exclusive-we-have-performance-numbers-on-the-2016-chevrolet-camaro-zl2/)
Sounds like nothing more than fanboi gossip.
Forgot gossip is only acceptable when it makes the Mustang look good.
Quote from: hotrodalex on April 01, 2015, 06:56:17 PM
Forgot gossip is only acceptable when it makes the Mustang look good.
:golfclap:
So this thing is still going to be 3800lbs in moderately equipped v8 trims.
Lame
Quote from: hotrodalex on April 01, 2015, 06:56:17 PM
Forgot gossip is only acceptable when it makes the Mustang look good.
Carbon fiber body panels, 808 hp, 3400 lbs, etc. I will believe it when I see it.
The current ZL1 has a 7:41 'Ring lap time yet despite ~230 more hp, ~300 fewer pounds, and undoubtedly improvements to chassis, handling and brakes, and all the ZL2 can manage is a 7:31? Something doesn't add up, but either way, judging by GM's current and recent hi-po efforts, take whatever is happening today with the competition, and the new Camaro in all its forms will be better.
Like the LT6 and 396 monikers but at that price point F/I is the only way to get big power like that (and turbos are generally cheaper than supercharging - sigh). This speaks to the ZR1 motor as well.
It probably goes into limp mode after the 2nd mile of the Ring...
Quote from: r0tor on April 02, 2015, 07:37:51 AM
It probably goes into limp mode after the 2nd mile of the Ring...
:lol:
:lol:
Quote from: r0tor on April 02, 2015, 07:37:51 AM
It probably goes into limp mode after the 2nd mile of the Ring...
:deadhorse"
Limp mode? What does that even mean?
Quote from: SVT666 on April 02, 2015, 04:26:06 PM
Laugh a little.
Oh I'll be laughing when this Camaro whips the rustangs ass! :cheers:
Quote from: SVT666 on April 02, 2015, 04:26:06 PM
Laugh a little.
That joke was old two months ago.
Corvette has quite a few carbon fiber bits and the GT350R has carbon wheels, I don't see what's so crazy about a CF hood, roof, or decklid on a top trim Camaro.
808 HP might be a bit extreme, but it'll be more than the GT350. And the 3400 lbs might be a bit of light estimate, just like the Miata estimates were lighter than the production car. But none of that stuff is impossible. I sure hope they get as close to all it if as they can.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on April 02, 2015, 04:27:34 PM
Oh I'll be laughing when this Camaro whips the rustangs ass! :cheers:
Well they have some work to do, the current mustang GT absolutely leaves the ss standing still, 5 sec faster to 130 is an eternity.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on April 02, 2015, 04:27:34 PM
Oh I'll be laughing when this Camaro whips the rustangs ass! :cheers:
A given since the new Mustang used the current (old) Camaro as its bogey (and didn't quite hit it, at least in performance).
Quote from: SVT32V on April 02, 2015, 05:17:30 PM
Well they have some work to do, the current mustang GT absolutely leaves the ss standing still, 5 sec faster to 130 is an eternity.
lol you just cherrypicked the one stat that the Mustang wins in.
Camaro is faster in the 1/4 mi.
Quote from: hotrodalex on April 02, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
lol you just cherrypicked the one stat that the Mustang wins in.
Camaro is faster in the 1/4 mi.
Right! The Camaro is 6 years old and still runs neck and neck with the all new rustang!
Quote from: hotrodalex on April 02, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
lol you just cherrypicked the one stat that the Mustang wins in.
Camaro is faster in the 1/4 mi.
Trap speed is quite a bit higher in the mustang, driven to its potential it will take the quarter.
Further, it is just plain faster, there is no arguing against it.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 02, 2015, 07:47:05 PM
Trap speed is quite a bit higher in the mustang, driven to its potential it will take the quarter.
Further, it is just plain faster, there is no arguing against it.
Like I said before! We'll see who's laughing (Just like every year since the Camaro came back) when the 6th Gen car hits the streets!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on April 02, 2015, 07:32:57 PM
Right! The Camaro is 6 years old and still runs neck and neck with the all new rustang!
Not really, any roll race is going to the mustang, the ls3 just isn't up to the task like of the 392 hemi or the 5.0 ford.
It is dead last in the acceleration wars.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on April 02, 2015, 07:51:07 PM
Like I said before! We'll see who's laughing (Just like every year since the Camaro came back) when the 6th Gen car hits the streets!
Not sure why bowtie boys would be laughing, the coyote was always more than a match for the camaro and the 5.8 trinity is still king over any camaro in the speed dept. :evildude: :ohyeah:
We'll see what Ford does with the S550 chassis/platform as time passes. I'd point out that the first year of the gen 5 Camaro wasn't all that spectacular. Not as good as it is now. Took a couple of years and some fine tuning to really bring out its potential. S197 was similar. Decent when it came out, great after the 2010/2011 suspension and powertrain updates.
I'm eager to see real details on the Gen6 Camaro.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2015-ford-mustang-gt-vs-chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le-dodge-challenger-r-t-scat-pack-final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-5 (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2015-ford-mustang-gt-vs-chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le-dodge-challenger-r-t-scat-pack-final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-5)
Not seeing any Mustang domination. All 3 are pretty much neck and neck.
Which is the awesome thing about this era of pony cars. Can't go wrong with any of the choices, basically just pick the one that you think looks coolest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=156&v=rTJPDurLEKw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=156&v=rTJPDurLEKw)
Motortrend shows the mustang quite a bit faster in the 1/4. Anything above 1/4 spds and the mustang walks.
Quote from: hotrodalex on April 02, 2015, 07:19:17 PM
lol you just cherrypicked the one stat that the Mustang wins in.
Camaro is faster in the 1/4 mi.
Well, to be fair, of the half dozen or so legit comparo tests, it's about even with a tenth or so either way.
Philosophically of course it's a win for the Camaro, considering it's a 6 year old car with an 8 year old motor, whilst the Mustang in that time frame has had two major revamps ('11 w/5.0 and 6 MT, and all new '15 model), and still isn't quicker, and still loses on the track.
Quote from: SVT32V on April 02, 2015, 07:51:20 PM
Not really, any roll race is going to the mustang, the ls3 just isn't up to the task like of the 392 hemi or the 5.0 ford.
It is dead last in the acceleration wars.
lol what is this alternate reality
Quote from: SVT32V on April 02, 2015, 08:12:02 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=156&v=rTJPDurLEKw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=156&v=rTJPDurLEKw)
Motortrend shows the mustang quite a bit faster in the 1/4. Anything above 1/4 spds and the mustang walks.
2:16 in that video:
"Pony car diehards might be disappointed that you can't find a winner just with straight line performance"
Quote from: hotrodalex on April 02, 2015, 09:41:36 PM
2:16 in that video:
"Pony car diehards might be disappointed that you can't find a winner just with straight line performance"
All that video proves is all the test drivers like the Camaro more! :lol:
The performance levels of these cars are so high now, I don't think it really matters who is faster on a track. In the real world one is no faster than the other. I want the one that looks better and is more livable, and surprise surprise, that's the Mustang in my book.
Apparently the link I posted was an April fools joke posted on Mar 31...
But the chief engineer replied "Hmmmmm!" to it, implying a good possibility of twin turbos.
I was right. Complete BS.
Congrats? :huh:
Thank you.
http://wot.motortrend.com/1504_2016_chevrolet_camaro_rear_fender_aluminum_hood_teased.html (http://wot.motortrend.com/1504_2016_chevrolet_camaro_rear_fender_aluminum_hood_teased.html)
I just hope it looks good. A lot of the fanboy renderings I've seen don't do well with the rear window.
These cars are all based on SUV platforms so ear level window sills and chunky styling is a given. My buddy's Challenger SRT8 rips but the interior felt like sitting in a basement.
Lel @ 3400lbs and 800HP though, Porsche couldnt do that for a million dollars with a bespoke platform lel. If the V8 comes in under 3700lbs I will be thoroughly impressed, though it may be possible with this all new non-cop car platform.
Another teaser released today.
Okay, now this is looking good, or at least much better than the renderings I've seen recently.
(http://img.s-msn.com/tenant/amp/entityid/BBjBQC3.img?h=486&w=728&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=1362&y=898)
I'm betting it's gonna be a game changer - 460 hp N/A V8, 7sp M/T, MagneRide, 3,650 lbs, $34k MSRP.
BOOM.
460HP? Lel.
Magnaride and undercutting the Rustang in weight is more than enough.
Side profile looks like a KPGC10.....
460 hp? Do you prefer kW?
I'm also hoping it'll help reverse this dismal trend toward forced induction. I just read the 911 is gonna be all turbo very soon. WTF is happening. So very sad.
I highly doubt this will have the same horsepower as the Vette (and certainly not more, the Vette is rated at 455). For starters, they had to redesign the headers because the Corvette's headers wouldn't fit, which leads me to believe they aren't as optimal as the Vette's. Second, the Camaro has never made as much power as the Corvette when the two were sharing engines. Whether this was intentional detuning or the result of packaging constraints restricting power output (I'm guessing more the former), it's just never happened. It'll be down at least 5 hp on the Vette.
I'm curious to see what the final design looks like, though. The profile looks good, I just hope they didn't botch the details. The mid-cycle facelift on the current gen, particularly the front end and headlights, was a step backwards. If the headlights look anything like the renderings that have been floating around, I think I'll pass. I also hope they fixed the horrible outward visibility, but I'm not holding my breath. That was really the deal-breaker for me on the current car, which I loved and had my heart pretty much set on right up to the point I sat in it.
Quote from: MX793 on May 11, 2015, 07:18:45 PM
I highly doubt this will have the same horsepower as the Vette (and certainly not more, the Vette is rated at 455). For starters, they had to redesign the headers because the Corvette's headers wouldn't fit, which leads me to believe they aren't as optimal as the Vette's. Second, the Camaro has never made as much power as the Corvette when the two were sharing engines. Whether this was intentional detuning or the result of packaging constraints restricting power output (I'm guessing more the former), it's just never happened. It'll be down at least 5 hp on the Vette.
I'm curious to see what the final design looks like, though. The profile looks good, I just hope they didn't botch the details. The mid-cycle facelift on the current gen, particularly the front end and headlights, was a step backwards. If the headlights look anything like the renderings that have been floating around, I think I'll pass. I also hope they fixed the horrible outward visibility, but I'm not holding my breath. That was really the deal-breaker for me on the current car, which I loved and had my heart pretty much set on right up to the point I sat in it.
The new taillights were a big step back too. The taillights that debuted with the car were much nicer.
I liked the original gen5 tail lights, but the current ones more closely resemble those from the late 60s models that the car's styling draws heavily from.
Pics are out:
http://jalopnik.com/2016-chevrolet-camaro-this-is-it-1704694612 (http://jalopnik.com/2016-chevrolet-camaro-this-is-it-1704694612)
Looks pretty good but very conservative. Unfortunately doesn't look like they fixed the god awful tiny window syndrome the current one has.
Looks smaller and less radical but not so sure on the overall effect of the styling. I also saw notes that the LT1 will be bucked down to 440 hp. Not a huge deal, esp. if a 3,650 curb weight is achieved, but less is never better here.
The current car I'm sure was done with a budget in mind (esp. the interior) considering it was designed at the height of the financial meltdown and GM's bankruptcy, plus, not sure GM was convinced it was going to be as successful as it was, so I expected there will be big leaps in interior quality/refinement.
I like the front half, but the back half is weak.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 15, 2015, 12:24:55 PM
I like the front half, but the back half is weak.
I agree. I'll hold off till judgement I get a good look at it.
Backend looks like the last gen prelude, very generic and uninteresting(referring to the back end).
Not digging the rear end, but might also be the quality/angle of the picture. Front end seems OK in that shot, but I'll wait for better pictures before I make any real judgements. Curious as to the interior.
I hate to say it, but it looks heavy too.
The rear appears a bit cheap, esp. the taillights, which was the case on the current refresh. The original 4 pot taillights looked best, or at least more distinctive. Hard to tell the effect of overall styling from the BS leaks.
It's supposed to be unveiled today. Where is it?
I'm a Chevy fanboy and I'm pretty dissapointed in the rear end treatment. Profile looks nice, though, but the rear looks rental spec.
Eh I searched on Twitter and I guess it will be in the next hour or so at belle isle. I thought pictures and info would have been released at midnight last night but they must have kept the embargo til the event.
The reveal is at 4pm...
Fuck that. I'm not waking up at midnight for that shit. Jesus
A turbo 4 banger is offered... Cougs head will explode
And it has 45 fewer horsepower than the Mustang EcoBoost.
Quote from: r0tor on May 16, 2015, 11:28:57 AM
A turbo 4 banger is offered... Cougs head will explode
I think GM did it right, though. They made the 4-banger the base option and kept the V6 the mid-level option and they left enough of a power/performance difference between the motors to justify that positioning.
Ford pitched the 4-banger as their mid-level engine, but its performance is too close to the V6 to really stand out above the V6 on its own, so they had to hobble the V6 model with extremely limited feature/options content to entice buyers into the 4-banger. All traits considered, I think it's inferior to the V6 out of the box. For Ford's model structure of V6<Turbo-4 to work, the Ecoboost should have been making ~30 more hp than it does now so that it clearly stands above the V6 without having to resort to withholding feature content on the V6 to get people to buy the turbo.
Quote from: MX793 on May 16, 2015, 11:56:08 AM
I think GM did it right, though. They made the 4-banger the base option and kept the V6 the mid-level option and they left enough of a power/performance difference between the motors to justify that positioning.
Ford pitched the 4-banger as their mid-level engine, but its performance is too close to the V6 to really stand out above the V6 on its own, so they had to hobble the V6 model with extremely limited feature/options content to entice buyers into the 4-banger. All things beyond performance considered, I think it's inferior to the V6 out of the box. For Ford's model structure of V6<Turbo-4 to work, the Ecoboost should have been making ~30 more hp than it does now so that it clearly stands above the V6 without having to resort to withholding feature content on the V6 to get people to buy the turbo.
This makes sense:
270 hp turbo 4 and 3400 lbs.
330 hp N/A V6 and 3500 lbs.
440 hp N/A V8 and 3650 lbs.
Ford offering the Ecoboost 4 against their 3.5L N/A V6 in the same vehicle has been a failure - performance, MPG, price, segmentation - in all applications, beyond just the Mustang (Explorer, Edge, Taurus). Rumor is all Camaro engines will have availability of the bevy of tech/luxury/performance options save for MagneRide, which is something else Ford didn't do right on the new Mustang (neutering the V6 model).
Quote from: GoCougs on May 16, 2015, 12:09:00 PM
This makes sense:
270 hp turbo 4 and 3400 lbs.
330 hp N/A V6 and 3500 lbs.
440 hp N/A V8 and 3650 lbs.
Ford offering the Ecoboost 4 against their 3.5L N/A V6 in the same vehicle has been a failure - performance, MPG, price, segmentation - in all applications, beyond just the Mustang (Explorer, Edge, Taurus). Rumor is all Camaro engines will have availability of the bevy of tech/luxury/performance options save for MagneRide, which is something else Ford didn't do right on the new Mustang (neutering the V6 model).
True, Ford has generally managed the turbo-4 vs NA V6 powertrain and trim level differentiation poorly. The Mustang is the only car in which Ford offers the 2.3T vs the 3.5/3.7Duratec V6, and those two motors line up pretty closely to each other. In other offerings, it's the 2.0T against the 3.5, which is an even worse proposition since the 3.5L makes considerably more power than the 2.0T.
But you can chip it bro
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 16, 2015, 01:45:18 PM
But you can chip it bro
Not many Explorer or Taurus drivers looking to chip their 2.0T motors.
I like it! The interior looks to be improved also!
http://www.chevrolet.com/2016-camaro/ (http://www.chevrolet.com/2016-camaro/)
Interior looks much better than the Rustangs.
The rear even looks better in the official pics.
They've taken some steps to improve forward visibility by lowering the dash, but rearward visibility is reportedly even worse than the outgoing model. Lateral visibility is unlikely to be improved, as the side glass still looks like it was inspired by a Normandy pillbox.
Not loving the rear still, but it looks better than in the grainy leaked photos from yesterday. Don't like the high-waisted rear bumper (a trait shared with Infiniti G-coupes). Looks like the top of the bumper is about the same height off the ground as the door handles. Based on the trunk lid shape, the opening to the trunk is going to be uselessly small.
Front end, for me, varies from pretty good to meh depending on which grille the car is sporting. The SS front end treatment looks pretty good to me. The lesser cars, not so much, though not awful. Both are kind of Toyota-esque, IMO.
I generally like the interior aesthetics more than the outgoing model, but I'm not sure how I feel about having the center HVAC vents down at the bottom of the center stack (blowing right onto the shifter). Also not a fan of electric parking brakes.
Styling aside, the tech suite is pretty impressive. Multiple driving modes (like you get with the Mustang Premium), dual-mode exhaust (works with the driving modes), rev-matching 6MT (in the SS), and an optional 8" screen in the gauge cluster that displays navigation and performance data (I think the Mustang's is only like a 4.3" and only shows performance data). And, obviously, Magneride will be available on SS models.
Looks nice, especially the interior. Also, LT1!
Quote from: thecarnut on May 16, 2015, 02:48:30 PM
Interior looks much better than the Rustangs.
I like the way the trim rings on the heating/cooling vents control the temperatures!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on May 16, 2015, 03:03:52 PM
I like the way the trim rings on the heating/cooling vents control the temperatures!
Same, I really like the positioning of the vents, too. I don't know how useful they will be but if they are angled right they should be fine.
Quote from: thecarnut on May 16, 2015, 02:48:30 PM
Interior looks much better than the Rustangs.
Standard (?) 8" touchscreen infotainment system definitely one-ups Ford's dumpy-looking base stereo unit. The new S550 interior, particularly in premium trim guise (with the cool toggle switches and touchscreen infotainment system), is very nice. Even the base interior, minus the stereo unit, is pretty nice in the new Mustang. Although I'm not a huge fan of touchscreen systems (I like real buttons, easier to find by since you can use a quick glance to generally locate and then go by feel), the standard head unit Ford's using in their vehicles these days isn't very attractive.
If they've saved some of the ATS's handling, this will be great. It's a pity they didn't make it look a little more different, though, if the character of the car is improving as much as it seems it will.
Hmmm. Chevy had the same challenge as Ford - where to go with successful retro styling. Overall it looks more refined/upscale both in and out but at first blush I'm not entirely in love. The rear window looks small and otherwise there is a lot of real estate above the rear wheel. I'm also not a fan of virtual dash boards and the vertical infotainment screen looks odd. I'm sure I'll warm up to it. At least it looks smaller and is overall well proportioned.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 16, 2015, 05:18:14 PM
Hmmm. Chevy had the same challenge as Ford - where to go with successful retro styling. Overall it looks more refined/upscale both in and out but at first blush I'm not entirely in love. The rear window looks small and otherwise there is a lot of real estate above the rear wheel. I'm also not a fan of virtual dash boards and the vertical infotainment screen looks odd. I'm sure I'll warm up to it. At least it looks smaller and is overall well proportioned.
I agree about too much space above the rear wheel! Reminds me of the CTS Coupe.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 16, 2015, 05:18:14 PM
Hmmm. Chevy had the same challenge as Ford - where to go with successful retro styling. Overall it looks more refined/upscale both in and out but at first blush I'm not entirely in love. The rear window looks small and otherwise there is a lot of real estate above the rear wheel. I'm also not a fan of virtual dash boards and the vertical infotainment screen looks odd. I'm sure I'll warm up to it. At least it looks smaller and is overall well proportioned.
The speedo and tach are actual physical gauges, not "virtual". The rest of the IP (the space between the main gauges) is an LCD screen, which is apparently optional. Not sure what the IP looks like if you opt out of the screen. I'm guessing a smaller screen that just displays basic vehicle info (TPMS data, trip meter, etc)?
Yup, did nothing to improve lateral or rear 3/4 visibility. The window sill on the door is at chin-level and the rear 3/4 windows may as well not even be there.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DZqwLfAR5w0/VVelokxb_KI/AAAAAAAR7dE/jIqJ36774Vg/s1600/2016-Chevrolet-Camaro-26.jpg)
I wonder if a sunroof will be available? That reverse Mohawk roof doesn't look sunroof friendly!
I love that you rotate the trim ring around the vents to control the temperature.
I've said more than once that I doubt I'd buy another new car anytime soon but I might pick up one of these once I see the pricing. :mask:
The interior is a huge upgrade over the old, but I still don't like the interior styling.
From some angles the car looks almost plebeian...especially with the non-SS trim front fascia. In SS trim I quite like the front half, but the rear half is somewhat underwhelming.
Putting aside any hatred of GM, I honestly would never look at this car for purchase. I think the interior still looks gimmicky and horrid with the massive tacked on screen, visibility is god aweful, styling is old, useless rear seats... Bleh, I would rather have a ATS-v, and that's not saying much
Its game over for the Rustang. With this around why would anyone without a major brain injury even consider a Mustang at this point? The SS will be 200 pounds lighter than the current Camaro. Given that the current Mustang V8 is exactly the same weight as the Camaro, and the GT350 Shelby is a claimed 130 pounds lighter than the Mustang GT, then this Camaro SS will be lighter than the upcoming GT350 and likely the GT350R as well, and only about 45hp down. Add to the fact that the SS will have the magnetic dampers as an option, something that Ford made a big deal about with the GT350. Plus Ford is a Magneride noob, while GM practically invented the technology.
This new SS will devour the current Mustang GT and if you slap on comparable tires will probably give the GT350 a good run for its money. The new ZL1 and Z28 are just going to make Ford engineers cry. No wonder they advertising that are only making 100 GT350s and 37 GT350Rs this year, trying to bank on promised exclusivity and supposed rarity as a crutch for subpar engineering, just like Ford is trying to do with the new GT (400k, give me break), and the first GT500s (suckers paying 80K thinking they would be exclusive, and then finding out that they kept just rolling them out).
Is that anything new though? Save for curiosities here and there (Terminator Cobra, Boss 302 'till the 1LE) the Camaro has been the overall better performer since '93 yet people still bought plenty of Mustangs. If by the grace of the sweet baby Jesus the Camaro wasn't the better performer I'd still choose the Camaro (prefer the styling and tech).
This looks pretty good. Not so sure about the winged spoiler, though small as it may be. Overall effect seems to work well:
(http://www.topgear.com/uk/imageresize/image.jpg?OriginalImageUrl=%2fuk%2fassets%2fcms%2f805a9a83-2f8d-4028-a217-60c7711431d1%2fLarge+Image.jpg%3fp%3d150516_10%3a23&Width=615&Height=347)
Quote from: 565 on May 17, 2015, 08:39:26 AM
Its game over for the Rustang. With this around why would anyone without a major brain injury even consider a Mustang at this point? The SS will be 200 pounds lighter than the current Camaro. Given that the current Mustang V8 is exactly the same weight as the Camaro, and the GT350 Shelby is a claimed 130 pounds lighter than the Mustang GT, then this Camaro SS will be lighter than the upcoming GT350 and likely the GT350R as well, and only about 45hp down. Add to the fact that the SS will have the magnetic dampers as an option, something that Ford made a big deal about with the GT350. Plus Ford is a Magneride noob, while GM practically invented the technology.
This new SS will devour the current Mustang GT and if you slap on comparable tires will probably give the GT350 a good run for its money. The new ZL1 and Z28 are just going to make Ford engineers cry. No wonder they advertising that are only making 100 GT350s and 37 GT350Rs this year, trying to bank on promised exclusivity and supposed rarity as a crutch for subpar engineering, just like Ford is trying to do with the new GT (400k, give me break), and the first GT500s (suckers paying 80K thinking they would be exclusive, and then finding out that they kept just rolling them out).
That limited run is just for 2015 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the original GT350. For 2016 the numbers will be more like 10,000 for the regular GT350.
Since the SS has 440 hp and the GT350 will have 540 or so, it's down 100 hp, not 45.
Oh, and this is how you do the air vents control the temp thing...
(http://2015carreviews.com/wp-content/gallery/2016-audi-tt-and-tts/2016-Audi-TT-air-vents.jpg)
Quote from: 565 on May 17, 2015, 08:39:26 AM
Its game over for the Rustang. With this around why would anyone without a major brain injury even consider a Mustang at this point? The SS will be 200 pounds lighter than the current Camaro. Given that the current Mustang V8 is exactly the same weight as the Camaro, and the GT350 Shelby is a claimed 130 pounds lighter than the Mustang GT, then this Camaro SS will be lighter than the upcoming GT350 and likely the GT350R as well, and only about 45hp down. Add to the fact that the SS will have the magnetic dampers as an option, something that Ford made a big deal about with the GT350. Plus Ford is a Magneride noob, while GM practically invented the technology.
This new SS will devour the current Mustang GT and if you slap on comparable tires will probably give the GT350 a good run for its money. The new ZL1 and Z28 are just going to make Ford engineers cry. No wonder they advertising that are only making 100 GT350s and 37 GT350Rs this year, trying to bank on promised exclusivity and supposed rarity as a crutch for subpar engineering, just like Ford is trying to do with the new GT (400k, give me break), and the first GT500s (suckers paying 80K thinking they would be exclusive, and then finding out that they kept just rolling them out).
Wow
Meh, auto temp control in a car is worthless and actually dialing up a specific temp is a window dressing.
I overide the auto systems in every car I ever had.
Me too. I hate auto temp.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 17, 2015, 09:11:08 AM
This looks pretty good. Not so sure about the winged spoiler, though small as it may be. Overall effect seems to work well:
(http://www.topgear.com/uk/imageresize/image.jpg?OriginalImageUrl=%2fuk%2fassets%2fcms%2f805a9a83-2f8d-4028-a217-60c7711431d1%2fLarge+Image.jpg%3fp%3d150516_10%3a23&Width=615&Height=347)
Honestly, I think it looks pretty damn good. Much better than the Mustang's silly looking front end, but god damn that huge beltline and tiny windows and crazy amount of sheetmetal over the rear wheels ruins the car for me.
Rustang looks better but this appears to be a better car. Which has low key been the case for the two over the majority of their simultaneous existence. I would have to drive both but I could probably look past the looks and go with the Cmro.
I really wanted one last night. But I think I'll go with a '06/'07 Mustang GT. Still looks great and has decent handling and is about $25k cheaper.
Quote from: thecarnut on May 17, 2015, 09:58:12 AM
Honestly, I think it looks pretty damn good. Much better than the Mustang's silly looking front end, but god damn that huge beltline and tiny windows and crazy amount of sheetmetal over the rear wheels ruins the car for me.
I want to see one in person so I can see how the body lines effect the sheet metal over the rear wheels! I'm hoping it has a muscular look in the flesh.
Quote from: 565 on May 17, 2015, 08:39:26 AM
just like Ford is trying to do with the new GT (400k, give me break), and the first GT500s (suckers paying 80K thinking they would be exclusive, and then finding out that they kept just rolling them out).
My money would go to an Adventador without a doubt.
General Motors has revealed the all-new 2016 Chevrolet Camaro at a special media event at Detroit's Belle Isle, showing off a slimmer, sleeker pony car with a whole host of chassis and powertrain improvements.
First and foremost, the 2016 Camaro is lighter. Underpinned by GM's global Alpha platform, the new car is more than 200lbs lighter than its predecessor. Backing up that weight loss is a full suite of new and upgraded engines, topped off by a 455-horsepower, direct-injected, 6.2L LT1 V8.
Earlier reports were correct regarding the available engine configurations in the new Camaro, but weren't quite there on the horsepower figures. The V8's 455 horsepower is backed up by 455 lb-ft of torque. Next down the line from the V8 is a 3.6L V6 boasting 335 horsepower and 284 lb-ft of torque. The base engine is a two-liter, 275-horsepower, turbocharged four-cylinder.
For the first time, the Camaro SS will be available with GM's Magnetic Ride Control active suspension, previously available only on the supercharged ZL1. Drivers can switch between three different programs that manage damper adjustments for various conditions or driving styles. Engineers have also improved the Camaro's active exhaust system. Electronically-controlled valves can bypass the mufflers, improving performance and creating a louder sound. Alternatively, the valves can be set to a 'stealth' mode that is quieter than usual.
Also available on all Camaros will be a drive mode selector, allowing drivers to choose from modes that tailor multiple vehicle systems to varying conditions. Available modes will include "Snow/Ice," "Tour," and "Sport." SS models will also feature a "Track" mode.
The new Camaro's exterior styling is more evolutionary than revolutionary, carrying forward the vaguely retro-modern aethetic of the previous generation. Details here and there have been upgraded to accommodate new tech, including LED lighting.
The interior is all-new as well, featuring a "shifter-focused" center console, revised controls, and a flat-bottom steering wheel. GM promises higher quality materials throughout.
The engineering teams used structural modeling to improve stiffness by 28 percent compared to the current model, despite the chassis' weight reduction. Steering and suspension components are said to have been engineered without as much need to compensate for chassis flex. With a curb-weight reduction of more than 200 pounds, engineers were able to reduce unsprung weight by scaling the wheels, tires and brakes for the lighter vehicle. 70% of the chassis architecture is unique to the Camaro.
Looks like initial powertrain reports were off on the power production. The SS is going to be a fucking monster. My only question is regarding curb weight. If the weight loss is really that significant, where are the official numbers?
Wow. I like this a lot. First "pony car" Id ever consider. Looks substantially better than the current car. Any word on pricing yet? Fully loaded with magnaride will be around $45k I take it?
Quote from: MrH on May 17, 2015, 02:02:24 PM
Wow. I like this a lot. First "pony car" Id ever consider. Looks substantially better than the current car. Any word on pricing yet? Fully loaded with magnaride will be around $45k I take it?
Pretty much.
Thats pretty fucking beastly.
This thing and the inevitably revamped, wider front tire'd Rustang GT are going to give pretty much everything north of them and south of a.... GT4? I said this when the '11 GT scarred the last M3 coupe. But unless u absolutely need the badge/image, wat would u lose going from an M4 down to a Magnaride SS or even a plain old GT with wider front tires and an upgraded suspension?
On paper, I like this car a lot. The specs and content all look class-obliterating. But they didn't fix the horrible outward sight lines and the trunk opening looks like it will barely accommodate a gym bag. Both are a big deal for me. The sight-lines were a deal-breaker for me 5 years ago, and still are.
I'm very curious about weight. I'm wondering if this isn't going to be like the Aluminum F-150 where Ford claimed something like a 500 lbs drop in weight, but practically speaking it was closer to 300 lbs on higher end models/trims. Makes me question if the SS is truly 200 lbs lighter, or only 100 lbs lighter than the outgoing model. I'll be interested to see pricing, too. Camaro is currently a bit more than the Mustang when similarly equipped and this new one brings a lot more content, granted many of the features they are advertising (Magneride, dual-mode muffler, 8" display in the IP) are not standard equipment. Curious to see if they can keep the price in check or if it's going to balloon.
While I really liked the S550 Mustang I drove, and taken by itself it's a great car, Ford dropped the ball to some degree in the pony car battle. Particularly in weight management, which is the hardest thing to fix/change on a platform once the platform is designed and in production. You can always find a way to get more power from the motor or refine the ride quality, but dropping significant weight generally requires significant redesign of the core structure. It simply shouldn't have been heavier than the S197 when similarly equipped. Of course, GM had the benefit of platform sharing since they still build other RWD vehicles whereas the Mustang's platform is bespoke. Ford no doubt could have made S550 lighter than it is, but would have compromised affordability in the process. That Ford didn't feel inclined to attempt some kind of power upgrade for 2016 to try to counter the new Camaro is a bit of a :facepalm: as well, unless they've got something waiting in the wings for 2017. The Coyote was designed for DI. Not sure why they've been dragging their feet with adding it.
IMO limited platform strategy and the pony car price point isn't so much dropping the ball plus development of Ecoboost and all-aluminum F-150 the last 4-6 years no doubt sucked up at least some development dollars.
Adding DI takes some work though - beyond fitting the injectors, it'll need new pistons, valving, combustion chamber work, etc.
Quote from: MX793 on May 17, 2015, 03:46:58 PM
On paper, I like this car a lot. The specs and content all look class-obliterating. But they didn't fix the horrible outward sight lines and the trunk opening looks like it will barely accommodate a gym bag. Both are a big deal for me. The sight-lines were a deal-breaker for me 5 years ago, and still are.
C&D reported outward visibility was improved on the Mule they drove. How much is the question!
IMO, this vehicle makes it really hard to buy a new corvette. This will be substantially cheaper and really close in performance and have all the same goodies.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on May 17, 2015, 05:18:17 PM
C&D reported outward visibility was improved on the Mule they drove. How much is the question!
One of the other press releases I read said that forward visibility improved by virtue of relocating the center HVAC registers to the bottom of the center stack, but rearward visibility got worse (somewhat less problematic with a backup camera, but still makes lane changes a leap of faith). With how high the beltline is, lateral visibility will still be horrible.
EDIT: Found some pics
(http://blog-admin.cddev.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2016-Chevrolet-Camaro-prototype-106.jpg)
^^^Look at the driver's head through the side window. The window sill is at mouth level (nearly to the driver's ears)!
(http://media.caranddriver.com/images/14q3/623409/2015-ford-mustang-gt-photo-633821-s-986x603.jpg)
^^^ You can actually see the tops of the driver's shoulders above the window sill in the S550.
I'm glad that they were able to improve at least the visibility in one direction (front), since the Camaro5 had poor sightlines all around. When they improve the visibility out of the sides, I'll consider one.
I'm not in love with the styling, but this thing sounds fucking awesome
Quote from: MrH on May 17, 2015, 05:20:54 PM
IMO, this vehicle makes it really hard to buy a new corvette. This will be substantially cheaper and really close in performance and have all the same goodies.
Not really, corvette offers tons of benefits over a Camaro if your looking for performance and intend to use it (especially on a track)
The V8 Camaro has usually always been within a stone's throw of (base) Corvette performance, and sometimes even more so, esp. recently with the ZL1 and Z/28. FWIW I've always preferred the Camaro over the Corvette.
The better weight distribution, better aerodynamics and lower center of gravity of the corvette are just a few benefits that can't be denied and are not subjective. Also, it at least has the profile and design of a proper high performance car.
When will any of those things ever really come into play for the average driver. Cmero's back seat and lower cost of entry will be beneficial every day.
I don't concern myself about the incorrect actions of average people. :huh:
Quote from: MX793 on May 17, 2015, 05:37:12 PM
One of the other press releases I read said that forward visibility improved by virtue of relocating the center HVAC registers to the bottom of the center stack, but rearward visibility got worse (somewhat less problematic with a backup camera, but still makes lane changes a leap of faith). With how high the beltline is, lateral visibility will still be horrible.
EDIT: Found some pics
(http://blog-admin.cddev.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2016-Chevrolet-Camaro-prototype-106.jpg)
^^^Look at the driver's head through the side window. The window sill is at mouth level (nearly to the driver's ears)!
(http://media.caranddriver.com/images/14q3/623409/2015-ford-mustang-gt-photo-633821-s-986x603.jpg)
^^^ You can actually see the tops of the driver's shoulders above the window sill in the S550.
I'm glad that they were able to improve at least the visibility in one direction (front), since the Camaro5 had poor sightlines all around. When they improve the visibility out of the sides, I'll consider one.
Not so sure that's a legit occupant in the Camaro. Looks shopped to me. Either way the camo is definitely applied to the lower portion of the side window.
And that's one big fella in the Mustang ;).
The Camaro photo is from C&D's prototype/mule test drive. It's not a chop. I'm not sure there's any camo actually on glass on the Camaro pictured. Otherwise the window wouldn't be able to raise and lower (which is necessary even on mules). The camo does cover the window surround (which often makes windows look larger), but doesn't appear to be on any of the glass.
The guy in the Mustang is probably a bit bigger/taller than average, but every press photo I can find in C&D or MT or wherever clearly shows that the entirety of the driver's head, if not the top of the shoulder, is above the window sill level.
Here's one from MotorTrend
(http://image.motortrend.com/f/blogs/1410_2015_ford_mustang_rolls_into_dealerships/81893211+w670+h447+cr1+ar0/2015-ford-mustang-ecoboost-side-in-motion-02.jpg)
an early spy shot of a test mule
(http://www.modernreaders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/0403-Mustang-GT.jpg)
Lel.
(http://www.camaro6.com/forums/attachment.php?s=fb0ae50d0159f51bdebe9590ddc28a81&attachmentid=717013&d=1431814750)
Wow, looks like the entire trunk is quite small, not just the opening.
What the hell is between the trunk and the rear fenders
Maybe these things wont be so practical after all. Trunk looks like it wont hold more than a gallon of milk and a small cereal box
Quote from: GoCougs on May 17, 2015, 07:18:24 PM
Either way the camo is definitely applied to the lower portion of the side window.
That was my first thought as well, but when I went to look up a picture to prove it, it looks like the relation between the mirror and glass is the same:
(http://www.chevrolet.com/2016-camaro/img/2016-chevrolet-camaro-six-masthead-1-1480x551.jpg)
(http://blog-admin.cddev.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2016-Chevrolet-Camaro-prototype-106.jpg)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 17, 2015, 09:01:45 PM
Lel.
(http://www.camaro6.com/forums/attachment.php?s=fb0ae50d0159f51bdebe9590ddc28a81&attachmentid=717013&d=1431814750)
If that's as bad as it looks, it may prove to be yet another GM miscalculation about the value of providing some amount of utility even in a fun car. See Pontiac Solstice and Cadillac ATS as other examples. The Camaro's sales figures put it in the mainstream -- it can't be downright useless.
Quote from: ifcar on May 17, 2015, 09:32:08 PM
That was my first thought as well, but when I went to look up a picture to prove it, it looks like the relation between the mirror and glass is the same:
(http://www.chevrolet.com/2016-camaro/img/2016-chevrolet-camaro-six-masthead-1-1480x551.jpg)
(http://blog-admin.cddev.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2016-Chevrolet-Camaro-prototype-106.jpg)
Maybe. It just looks like there is a vertical strip of camo on the bottom of the window - not huge but definitely taller than the black framing.
Its def not much.... use the mirror handle as a reference point
either way visibility out is gonna be shit. It looks like a basement
If what I saw posted in the comments at MT is correct, this car has even less headroom than the old one and a full inch less than the Mustang.
Ha so a crawl space.
Holy crap that trunk is terrible.
On the plus side, the space between the trunk panels and fenders is probably handy for smuggling drugs and/or body parts.
These cars aren't any more practical than a Corvette, in reality. Though many do buy into the illusion of practicality because of the rear seats and "larger" passenger cabin.
Quote from: 68_427 on May 16, 2015, 07:40:26 PM
I love that you rotate the trim ring around the vents to control the temperature.
Me too. That's really neat.
Autoblog drove the prototype. They liked it. http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/17/2016-chevrolet-camaro-prototype-first-drive/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/17/2016-chevrolet-camaro-prototype-first-drive/)
QuoteAfter driving both, it's almost surprising how much better the 2016 model feels than the '15 we tested first for comparison. It stays buttoned-up at times when the old car would have been all over the place. The new Camaro is also about two inches shorter in length and wheelbase. It's hard to quantify that during a couple of hot laps, but judging by the car's improved reflexes, it seems to have helped. The last generation relied on raw power and sophisticated engineering to compete with the sporty Ford Mustang, but it also felt closer to Dodge's hefty Challenger. Now, the athletic 2016 Camaro is much more in step with the 'Stang.
Strange, C&D said the prototype was such a mess they couldn't get a feel for a lot of basic attributes.
Autoblog has always been low key puff piece journalism though so I'm not surprised.
So what manner of life do you guys stuff into your trunks???
An extra wheel/tire on a road trip, new tires shipped in from tire rack that I need to take to the tire shop (admittedly something I wouldn't really need to do in the U.S.) ... large deployment bags.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on May 18, 2015, 11:17:04 AM
An extra wheel/tire on a road trip, new tires shipped in from tire rack that I need to take to the tire shop ...
I guess I could see that working with a smaller car, but FWIW I cannot get my wheels/tires in to my car even with the seat folded down. I don't think I could get more than 1 to fit in the trunk by itself.
19 inch wheels/tires are simply too big. I think the Camaro comes with taller and fatter wheels than my car (255/35R19).
Just this weekend I loaded the Civic up with
- garage storage cabinets and drawers
- a whole heap of crap I left at the apartment (wood planks, computers, stationery, vacuum cleaner)
I dont think u could put a basketball in the Camaro's trunk. Thats pretty sad. I dont want to make this out to be another Z06gate but I think it's critical they make this thing at least somewhat usable.
Tires seems like once every few years. FWIW, I couldn't/can't fit four tires in either the Accord or G37 trunk - I can fit two, and even one takes up a lot of space.
I was able to deflate one of my tires and throw the wheel and tire into the trunk. I don't think you could even fit the Miata's 16" wheel/tire combo (or even the wheel alone) through that trunk opening on the Camaro... sad...
C'mon, guys, need to try harder than this.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 18, 2015, 11:57:39 AM
C'mon, guys, need to try harder than this.
Try harder than what?
(http://ericpetersautos.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/15-Mustang-trunk.jpg)
Look at how much bigger that trunk opening is. There is no reason the Camaro's trunk should be so tiny, especially since it's supposed to be more practical than the Corvette.
Complaining about a trunk, esp. its "opening" size, slots somewhere between complaining about cup holders and seat stitching.
I'd still need the car for runs to the airport :lol:
That's something I think the corvette would probably be easier to live with.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 17, 2015, 06:28:59 PM
The better weight distribution, better aerodynamics and lower center of gravity of the corvette are just a few benefits that can't be denied and are not subjective. Also, it at least has the profile and design of a proper high performance car.
Are those things worth $20k+ though? To most people, probably not.
All you fuckers complaining just buy a $2k beater waggin
Quote from: GoCougs on May 18, 2015, 12:13:07 PM
Complaining about a trunk, esp. its "opening" size, slots somewhere between complaining about cup holders and seat stitching.
The Camaro is presumably many people's daily driver and/or only car, not a weekend toy. It needs some measure of utility.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 18, 2015, 12:13:07 PM
Complaining about a trunk, esp. its "opening" size, slots somewhere between complaining about cup holders and seat stitching.
No. Trunk opening size is quite important for getting suitcases in and out.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 18, 2015, 11:44:45 AM
Tires seems like once every few years. FWIW, I couldn't/can't fit four tires in either the Accord or G37 trunk - I can fit two, and even one takes up a lot of space.
I fit all four tires in the back seat of our G.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 18, 2015, 11:04:15 AM
So what manner of life do you guys stuff into your trunks???
In recent memory:
-Had to carry a leaking tire to a shop to repair the leak
-Luggage for 2 people
-TV (it's only a 37", but in the box it's pretty bulky)
-Brought a bunch of boxes (produce boxes and large tupperware type boxes) of stuff that were in storage at my parents' to my place
I don't golf, but know a lot of people who do. I suspect even fitting a larger golf bag through the trunk opening would be a chore.
Old dudes in Camaros and Mustangs love golfing.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 18, 2015, 01:44:25 PM
No. Trunk opening size is quite important for getting suitcases in and out.
Yes, opening size and shape plays a huge role in defining how useful a trunk really is. That trunk opening is very strange; looks almost like an after thought. What's all the extra metal for between the opening itself and the struts? Rigidity?
Better, but you guys still to try harder still ;).
To wat? Demonstrate the usefulness of a trunk? Lol. No need, 100 years of cars already did that.
The hiking backpack I carry my gym gear in has more cargo space than this thing. MX793's motorcycle panniers have more cargo space than this thing.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 18, 2015, 07:41:12 PM
To wat? Demonstrate the usefulness of a trunk?
No no, any criticism of the Camaro is an anti-GM bias in which we're trying to tear down a perfect vehicle. Apparently we haven't yet succeeded at tearing it down, and must try harder.
Jesus. Complaining about a trunk is simply idiotic. It has nothing to do with the car.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 18, 2015, 08:31:51 PM
Jesus. Complaining about a trunk is simply idiotic. It has nothing to do with the car.
Sure, just like headroom or legroom in the passenger compartment.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 18, 2015, 08:31:51 PM
Jesus. Complaining about a trunk is simply idiotic. It has nothing to do with the car.
Well it is attached to the car.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 18, 2015, 08:31:51 PM
Jesus. Complaining about a trunk is simply idiotic. It has nothing to do with the car.
Because we all know all Camaro owners need to haul Dry Wall, 2x4s and 3 passengers (And their luggage) around on a daily basis! The trunk in my '99 Vert was half the size of this new one and it was fine. I traveled with my ex and 2 kids on the regualr and it held everything wee needed. This is a sports car fellas. Not a Camry......
Compromises.
Exactly! I've never heard anyone complain about the size of a Miatas trunk.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on May 18, 2015, 09:34:10 PM
Exactly! I've never heard anyone complain about the size of a Miatas trunk.
The trunk opening on a Miata is actually bigger :lol:
I guess the visibility isn't very good out of these things... Jalopnik already crashed one:
http://www.vettetv.com/first-public-crash-of-the-new-2016-camaro/ (http://www.vettetv.com/first-public-crash-of-the-new-2016-camaro/)
:lol:
Quote from: thecarnut on May 18, 2015, 10:18:33 PM
I guess the visibility isn't very good out of these things... Jalopnik already crashed one:
http://www.vettetv.com/first-public-crash-of-the-new-2016-camaro/ (http://www.vettetv.com/first-public-crash-of-the-new-2016-camaro/)
:lol:
:shakesfist: :lol:
"where is the wall!"
haha!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on May 18, 2015, 09:26:28 PM
Because we all know all Camaro owners need to haul Dry Wall, 2x4s and 3 passengers (And their luggage) around on a daily basis! The trunk in my '99 Vert was half the size of this new one and it was fine. I traveled with my ex and 2 kids on the regualr and it held everything wee needed. This is a sports car fellas. Not a Camry......
Actually, the Gen4 vert had roughly 75% of the trunk volume of the Gen5 coupe. Haven't seen figures yet for the Gen6, but I doubt it's larger than the Gen5.
And as many have repeatedly said, it's not just the size of the trunk that matters. Size and shape of the trunk opening is a major factor in what you can actually get into the trunk. A 20 cu ft trunk can hold a lot of stuff, but if the opening is only 6"x18", it severely limits what you can actually put in there. Items that technically fit in the trunk cavity won't fit through the opening. Miata has a small trunk, but the opening gives you full access to what space you have (and as noted, it seriously appears larger than both gen 5 and 6 Camaros). Gen 4 Camaros also had a large trunk opening relative to the trunk size (lift back ftw), and IIRC the convertibles also had a large trunk opening for their size.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on May 18, 2015, 09:26:28 PM
Because we all know all Camaro owners need to haul Dry Wall, 2x4s and 3 passengers (And their luggage) around on a daily basis! The trunk in my '99 Vert was half the size of this new one and it was fine. I traveled with my ex and 2 kids on the regualr and it held everything wee needed. This is a sports car fellas. Not a Camry......
As long as it does indeed have enough for that sort of normal use, like you used yours for, I don't think there's a problem. At least based on the pictures, it looks like it may not even have that.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on May 18, 2015, 09:34:10 PM
Exactly! I've never heard anyone complain about the size of a Miatas trunk.
People respond to the Miata's practicality level by not buying it. The Camaro sells at 10x the volume in no small part because it's more useful. It needs to stay that way to continue its current sales success.
Quote from: ifcar on May 19, 2015, 07:49:41 AM
As long as it does indeed have enough for that sort of normal use, like you used yours for, I don't think there's a problem. At least based on the pictures, it looks like it may not even have that.
People respond to the Miata's practicality level by not buying it. The Camaro sells at 10x the volume in no small part because it's more useful. It needs to stay that way to continue its current sales success.
Actually, it's just that 96% of Camaro buyers think Miatas are gay.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 18, 2015, 08:31:51 PM
Jesus. Complaining about a trunk is simply idiotic. It has nothing to do with the car.
LOL!
My initial impression is the exterior styling took a step back compared to the outgoing model. I preferred the looks of that one to the similar gen Mustang, but I like the new Mustang better than the new Camaro.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 19, 2015, 07:56:52 AM
Actually, it's just that 96% of Camaro buyers think Miatas are gay.
Count me in! LOL!!!
I guess it just boils to the fact that some people are real drivers and others just buy camaros. Different strokes i guess. :huh:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 19, 2015, 06:02:36 PM
I guess it just boils to the fact that some people are real drivers and others just buy camaros. Different strokes i guess. :huh:
:lol:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 19, 2015, 06:02:36 PM
I guess it just boils to the fact that some people are real drivers and others just buy camaros. Different strokes i guess. :huh:
Next time a Z28 laps you and your Miata on your local track I'll come by to help you pull your foot out your mouth. :cheers:
I think we just figured out who doesn't have a sense of humour.
Yes - those who are anxious about trunks and/or who would choose a Miata over a Camaro.
Plastic sway bar end links... Wow
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on May 19, 2015, 07:42:25 PM
Next time a Z28 laps you and your Miata on your local track I'll come by to help you pull your foot out your mouth. :cheers:
I don't think I've ever seen a new(5th or later) camaro at the track(the events I've gone to).
Edit: Maybe it has something to do with weight restrictions?
Quote from: SVT666 on May 19, 2015, 08:54:36 PM
I think we just figured out who doesn't have a sense of humour.
U must not have seen dude's FB feed.....
I think he was Bernie Mac's ghost writer....
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 20, 2015, 07:13:56 AM
I don't think I've ever seen a new(5th or later) camaro at the track(the events I've gone to).
Edit: Maybe it has something to do with weight restrictions?
Weight restrictions for the car or the driver?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 20, 2015, 08:54:36 AM
U must not have seen dude's FB feed.....
I think he was Bernie Mac's ghost writer....
I don't have FB.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 20, 2015, 08:54:36 AM
U must not have seen dude's FB feed.....
I think he was Bernie Mac's ghost writer....
Oh Snap! Was 666 talking about my sense of humor?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 20, 2015, 07:13:56 AM
I don't think I've ever seen a new(5th or later) camaro at the track(the events I've gone to).
Edit: Maybe it has something to do with weight restrictions?
:clap: Crafty. I'll let you have that one!
Seriously though, I've seen way more vettes at AutoX or expecially Road Course events than any other domestic vehicle. Never seen a camaro(new gen, seen a 4th gen).
It really just isn't a car that seems to attract that type of customer, IMO.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 20, 2015, 11:36:29 AM
Seriously though, I've seen way more vettes at AutoX or expecially Road Course events than any other domestic vehicle. Never seen a camaro(new gen, seen a 4th gen).
It really just isn't a car that seems to attract that type of customer, IMO.
I think people see Pony cars as drag racers while the Vette is viewed as a more capable handler.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on May 20, 2015, 11:38:50 AM
I think people see Pony cars as drag racers while the Vette is viewed as a more capable handler.
The cars themselves reflect that. I think they "see" them as they are. Granted the "pony cars"(I actually wish they would drop that) are getting more capable then ever. But the overall design choices still seem to support that mentality(drag racers, "Pony" cars).
I think dropping that persona, even from a corporate image point of view, and focusing on being actual sports cars(no mention of pony anywhere) would help with the way they are perceived and hopefully how they are actually designed.
True Dat!
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 20, 2015, 11:36:29 AM
Seriously though, I've seen way more vettes at AutoX or expecially Road Course events than any other domestic vehicle. Never seen a camaro(new gen, seen a 4th gen).
It really just isn't a car that seems to attract that type of customer, IMO.
I've been autocrossing regularly for 5 years. I've seen exactly one 5th gen Camaro at an autocross, despite the fact that they are hugely popular around here (by casual observation, significantly more popular/common than '10+ Mustangs). Off the top of my head, I've run against 4 other S197 Mustangs (including a Boss 302).
Quote from: MX793 on May 20, 2015, 03:09:10 PM
I've been autocrossing regularly for 5 years. I've seen exactly one 5th gen Camaro at an autocross, despite the fact that they are hugely popular around here (by casual observation, significantly more popular/common than '10+ Mustangs). Off the top of my head, I've run against 4 other S197 Mustangs (including a Boss 302).
I'm not really surprised at that. Now drive by your local golf course on a saturday and I'm sure you'd spot more than a few camaro's.
Not really a fan of the car as we've seen it so far, but this looks pretty rad.
(http://i.imgur.com/QfZOtsV.jpg)
Quote from: 68_427 on May 22, 2015, 12:36:33 AM
Not really a fan of the car as we've seen it so far, but this looks pretty rad.
(http://i.imgur.com/QfZOtsV.jpg)
Whoa, that looks fantastic.
Quote from: 68_427 on May 22, 2015, 12:36:33 AM
Not really a fan of the car as we've seen it so far, but this looks pretty rad.
(http://i.imgur.com/QfZOtsV.jpg)
It pains me to say this, but I might actually prefer the new Camaro over the new Mustang.
Quote from: mzziaz on May 22, 2015, 11:29:18 AM
It pains me to say this, but I might actually prefer the new Camaro over the new Mustang.
That picture is not stock.
Accentuating the fender bulge mitigates all that metal between the rear wheel and rear window. That just might be 'shopping though...
Still can't get over those fucking windows.
C'mon GM.
Looks cheesy. Might need black fenders to break up that visual mass.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/hemi666/Cars/2016-camaro-reveal-live-4_653_zpszjyd61gp.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/hemi666/Cars/2016-camaro-reveal-live-13_653_zpse1vaknst.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/hemi666/Cars/2016-camaro-reveal-live-12_653_zpsdg7mfneq.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/hemi666/Cars/2016-camaro-reveal-live-11_653_zps5mzc1eho.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/hemi666/Cars/2016-camaro-reveal-live-6_653_zpsxmbvakmt.jpg)
I don't like the back, or the front 3/4 shots.
Also GM is doing better, but the wheel gap(especially in the rear) is horrible.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 22, 2015, 02:02:54 PM
I don't like the back, or the front 3/4 shots.
Yeah I pretty much like profile shots best. Looks a bit bloated otherwise?
The rear has a Challenger feel to it. Not a good thing, since that's the part I dislike most about the Challenger.
The next gen Camaro will have no windows at all. You lay down inside of it and drive using a vision system.
The small windows is actually kind of ironic, since these cars are for the 4 wheeled equivalent of the harley guy revving his motor at a stoplight. You'd think they would optimize the car for the look at me factor.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 22, 2015, 03:38:40 PM
The small windows is actually kind of ironic, since these cars are for the 4 wheeled equivalent of the harley guy revving his motor at a stoplight. You'd think they would optimize the car for the look at me factor.
But that's why the car looks so cool. Maybe they'll have an optional seat lift with a roof bubble like the Pope Mobile.
Ed Welburn is a clown who wanted the roofline even lower on the 5th gen.
I was driving home from work today and thought I saw the new camaro. I couldn't believe it, i rubbed my eyes and sure enough it was just a passing locomotive heading downtown.
(http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2016-Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-line-drawing-side-view.jpg)
Hmmm. That doesn't make a lot of sense. The outgoing Camaro was 190.6" and that "diagram" shows the new Camaro to be ~3" longer.
Chubba Chedda took a preproduction model for a drive (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-prototype-drive-review). He says 133 lbs came off the the body shell and the rest is via AL in suspension and various bits. He also implies visibility has been improved via lower cowl and thinner A-pillars.
The V6 will kick the shit out of the Ecob00st
Quote from: 68_427 on May 23, 2015, 01:24:56 AM
The V6 will kick the shit out of the Ecob00st
but u cant chip the V6 brah
188"..... thats longer than a lot of roomier cars. Most notably the last M3 sedan. And this has a tiny trunk and back seat. The LT1 is tiny. Why is this thing so big? These things should all be fox body size.
Quote from: 68_427 on May 23, 2015, 01:24:56 AM
The V6 will kick the shit out of the Ecob00st
$28k for 335 hp and 3,450 lbs is a pretty big deal.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 23, 2015, 04:16:27 PM
$28k for 335 hp and 3,450 lbs is a pretty big deal.
Growing up, my dads 250 HP LS 400 was powerful, as was his 282 HP 740i. For a time he was looking at the 1st generation S55 (non-supercharged) with 354 HP. That was a big deal in 2002, and now you can get 335 HP in what amounts to a mainstream car. Amazing.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 23, 2015, 04:16:27 PM
$28k for 335 hp and 3,450 lbs is a pretty big deal.
Plus the sound and non shitty powerband
Prob will weigh a good bit less too. Damn Ford low key has a mess on its hands.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 23, 2015, 06:11:11 PM
Prob will weigh a good bit less too. Damn Ford low key has a mess on its hands.
Yeah, Ford dropped the ball in the weight department.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 23, 2015, 10:38:32 PM
Yeah, Ford dropped the ball in the weight department.
Powertrain strategy as well.
Quote from: 68_427 on May 23, 2015, 04:35:44 PM
Plus the sound and non shitty powerband
It's said to have available all SS performance options - Brembos, dual mode exhaust, wheels/tires, etc. - save for MagneRide.
I thought Magnaride was going to be available for all engine options? Maybe it was trim levels on the SS. Idk.
Quote from: MX793 on May 23, 2015, 10:48:32 PM
Powertrain strategy as well.
Yeah, that too. Ford did a great job on the GT (other than weight), but otherwise they really screwed up on the new Stang. The styling looks great too.
Walk around and interior review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv1nbeZoPY4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv1nbeZoPY4)
Outward visibility is greatly improved - look how low that dash is now...
There's more to outward visibility than straight ahead. And even that still doesn't look great on the Gen6. Lateral and rearward visibility both look abismal still. The rear window opening in particular looks like it may be even worse than the Gen5.
For comparison's sake, screen captures from POV vids of Gen6 Camaro and S550 Mustang test drives.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2z86iq1.jpg)
No wonder Jalopnik crashed it.
That header is really low. I sat in the new Mustang and I lowered the seat as far as it would go and it still felt like the header was really low, and the Camaro's is even lower. And the A-pillar in the Camaro is noticeably thicker, which is typical of most GM vehicles.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 26, 2015, 06:13:32 PM
That header is really low. I sat in the new Mustang and I lowered the seat as far as it would go and it still felt like the header was really low, and the Camaro's is even lower. And the A-pillar in the Camaro is noticeably thicker, which is typical of most GM vehicles.
S550's header is a little bit lower than the S197. But I still feel I could wear a helmet inside without the top of it rubbing on the ceiling. I also think Ford thinned out the A-pillars in S550, particularly the front corner where it meets the window sill (where the mirror adjustment joystick used to be). Setting the mirrors out a bit helped with the front quarter visibility as well.
To its credit, the Camaro's forward (straight ahead) visibility appears better from what I recall the Gen5's being. Still not what I'd call "good", though.
Quote from: SVT666 on May 26, 2015, 06:13:32 PM
That header is really low. I sat in the new Mustang and I lowered the seat as far as it would go and it still felt like the header was really low, and the Camaro's is even lower. And the A-pillar in the Camaro is noticeably thicker, which is typical of most GM vehicles.
The FOV of the shot of the Mustang is larger (i.e., the camera is further from the A-pillar, which will make it look relatively narrower WRT the Camaro). The Mustang hood is also more noticeable than in the Camaro when looking forward, which is minimized by the larger FOV.
Hah... Just read on C&D the "all great and conquering" 2015 Z28 has $4k of incentives on it right now because they can't get them off of dealer lots. Plus they are already putting a $2k rebate on 2016s...
In fairness, isn't the Z28 more of a showoff halo car that's only useful on a track, rather than something that people would actually want to own?
Quote from: r0tor on May 27, 2015, 06:22:52 AM
Hah... Just read on C&D the "all great and conquering" 2015 Z28 has $4k of incentives on it right now because they can't get them off of dealer lots. Plus they are already putting a $2k rebate on 2016s...
4K in rebates, sounds interesting. So I popped over to chevrolet.com to check it out.
Right off the bat, I can see some of the problems(for me). It's 72K MSRP, LOL. It has the LS7, I wonder if GM ever fixed that motor. It weights(this is the "track" camaro) 3800 FRICKIN POUNDS. LOL.
If I wanted a LS7, a C6 Z06 with less than 15K miles on it can be had for tens of thousands less. It also weighs 500 lbs less, looks much much much(much?) much better and no doubt will benefit from such things as better aerodynamics, lower center of gravity and better weight distribution(transaxle).
It would take a die hard camaro guy, or just a rich guy with tons of money(and little taste) to plop down 70K on one of those. I'd rather have a Z51 Stingray(see all the above) than the Z28.
Quote from: ifcar on May 27, 2015, 06:55:24 AM
In fairness, isn't the Z28 more of a showoff halo car that's only useful on a track, rather than something that people would actually want to own?
At ~$75k it was never meant to "sell" and now Camaro fanboys are all giddy over the stats of the soon-to-be-announced 6th gen Z/28.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 27, 2015, 11:41:13 AM
At ~$75k it was never meant to "sell" and now Camaro fanboys are all giddy over the stats of the soon-to-be-announced 6th gen Z/28.
All so they won't buy those either...
Quote from: r0tor on May 27, 2015, 06:22:52 AM
Hah... Just read on C&D the "all great and conquering" 2015 Z28 has $4k of incentives on it right now because they can't get them off of dealer lots. Plus they are already putting a $2k rebate on 2016s...
You're acting like GM is giving 40K off the retail price! 4K is around 5%! Anyone with half a brain could negotiate that much off of a 75K car that's gonna be replaced within the next year or so!
I like the look of the Mustang better but this *may* be the better driver.
POV driving 2016 Camaro V6 6MT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ3fDxMV8Wc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ3fDxMV8Wc)
V6 sounds pretty good - like an uncorked VQ actually. Interior looks very good though the totally vertical infotainment screen looks weird. Also, for whatever reason, while most automakers have ugly ass steering wheels but Chevy does not.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 27, 2015, 07:22:50 AM
4K in rebates, sounds interesting. So I popped over to chevrolet.com to check it out.
Right off the bat, I can see some of the problems(for me). It's 72K MSRP, LOL. It has the LS7, I wonder if GM ever fixed that motor. It weights(this is the "track" camaro) 3800 FRICKIN POUNDS. LOL.
If I wanted a LS7, a C6 Z06 with less than 15K miles on it can be had for tens of thousands less. It also weighs 500 lbs less, looks much much much(much?) much better and no doubt will benefit from such things as better aerodynamics, lower center of gravity and better weight distribution(transaxle).
It would take a die hard camaro guy, or just a rich guy with tons of money(and little taste) to plop down 70K on one of those. I'd rather have a Z51 Stingray(see all the above) than the Z28.
Yea the Z28 is like a boat, in that the best way to experience one is prob to have a friend with one
My gawd the tires alone prob cost $3K to replace. At least u can rotate them lmao.
So I saw a car in the distance, parked perpendicular, rear to the road. It first registered as "Lexus SC400." Then I got closer & for some reason it started looking a bit R34 Nissan Skyline. Then finally I realized "new Camaro." Very tasty looking.
Quote from: Morris Minor on May 29, 2015, 09:22:44 AM
So I saw a car in the distance, parked perpendicular, rear to the road. It first registered as "Lexus SC400." Then I got closer & for some reason it started looking a bit R34 Nissan Skyline. Then finally I realized "new Camaro." Very tasty looking.
Unless you saw a mule (or a 2015), the new 2016s aren't out for sale yet. They won't hit the streets until sometime this autumn.
Quote from: MX793 on May 29, 2015, 10:26:02 AM
Unless you saw a mule (or a 2015), the new 2016s aren't out for sale yet. They won't hit the streets until sometime this autumn.
I'm pretty sure it was the new one - it did not have license plates - my daily route home takes me on a side road running behind where all the major car dealers are located. It definitely triggered the hyperaware "have not seen that car before" circuitry that all SPINners have. :lol:
Quote from: Morris Minor on May 29, 2015, 12:11:24 PM
I'm pretty sure it was the new one - it did not have license plates - my daily route home takes me on a side road running behind where all the major car dealers are located. It definitely triggered the hyperaware "have not seen that car before" circuitry that all SPINners have. :lol:
If it's a 2016, it was a pre-pro or there for some kind of auto show. Production has not started on 2016s yet. Full specs aren't even out yet.
There have been a bunch of 2016s spotted
I haven't seen one yet, but I'm pretty sure I've felt a couple go by me when I was on the bridge occasionally.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on May 29, 2015, 02:20:02 PM
I haven't seen one yet, but I'm pretty sure I've felt a couple go by me when I was on the bridge occasionally.
You'd feel a Fiat go by if you in that miata.......
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/22/2016-chevy-camaro-convertible-leaked-photos/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/22/2016-chevy-camaro-convertible-leaked-photos/)
I have to see it in person. That front end isn't doing it for me at all.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on June 23, 2015, 10:08:48 PM
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/22/2016-chevy-camaro-convertible-leaked-photos/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/22/2016-chevy-camaro-convertible-leaked-photos/)
My, that is breathtakingly ugly.
The new Chevy Cruze looks better than the new Camaro.
(http://lln.mnmcdn.com/photos/content/october2014/thumbnailsnew/2016-chevy-cruze-05_2560.jpg)
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on June 23, 2015, 10:08:48 PM
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/22/2016-chevy-camaro-convertible-leaked-photos/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/22/2016-chevy-camaro-convertible-leaked-photos/)
That actually looks good (esp. with the top up) for a convertible (and I'm not a fan in general) - definitely better than most.
Quote from: SVT666 on June 25, 2015, 11:19:40 AM
The new Chevy Cruze looks better than the new Camaro.
:confused:
It looks like a Volt. Not bad, but nothing remotely similar to a Camaro. You may think the Volt looks better than the Camaro, but I doubt most people would agree. :lol:
Quote from: SVT666 on June 25, 2015, 11:19:40 AM
The new Chevy Cruze looks better than the new Camaro.
(http://lln.mnmcdn.com/photos/content/october2014/thumbnailsnew/2016-chevy-cruze-05_2560.jpg)
:nutty:
Another fan dreamer photoshop.
(http://i.imgur.com/Vkf7etE.jpg)
Windows are too big. DLO lets too much DL in the O.
I'm a little upset that this is a new platform and the styling is basically the same as the old csr
That ZL1 is a 'shop and mimics the wheels, hood bulge, spoiler and splitter from the 2015 car. I was a bit disappointed at first but though the new Camaro has the same styling cues as the old but put 'em next to each other and they are very different cars in and out. Evolutionary styling is the way to keep a marque alive - 911, Corvette, 3er, now Mustang.
I liked how the Mustang looked completely different with each iteration. Kept things interesting.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 05, 2015, 08:13:47 AM
I liked how the Mustang looked completely different with each iteration. Kept things interesting.
Well, sometimes the Mustang did, and sometimes it did not. Ford's error with the S197 is letting it languish for 5 years too long. The market these days won't put up with that (and sorta didn't considering the 5th Camaro easily bested it in sales for five years straight). Bold new styling is risky these days - the competition is absolutely insane for budget-ish performance cars - it's no longer just Camaro vs. Mustang.
Let the fun begin.
http://wot.motortrend.com/1508_spied_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_cant_hide_its_heat_extractor.html (http://wot.motortrend.com/1508_spied_chevrolet_camaro_zl1_cant_hide_its_heat_extractor.html)
Quote from: GoCougs on July 05, 2015, 08:36:05 PM
Well, sometimes the Mustang did, and sometimes it did not. Ford's error with the S197 is letting it languish for 5 years too long. The market these days won't put up with that (and sorta didn't considering the 5th Camaro easily bested it in sales for five years straight). Bold new styling is risky these days - the competition is absolutely insane for budget-ish performance cars - it's no longer just Camaro vs. Mustang.
Performance car markets are silo'd by image/configuration though. I have a single buddy with a Challenger SRT8. Works for him, he works from home, no responsibilities, doesn't do any kind of handy work. Has a custom license plate that reads "DIXI" :lol: He wouldnt be caught dead in a little hot hatch. Meanwhile as much as I respect and like muscle cars, their image still makes me snarl, their space inefficiency is deplorable and their impracticality is pretty much a deal breaker for me. So I think there are a lot of cars in the same price and performance bracket but there's not that much cross shopping outside of the little configuration silos. A Camaro SS and Golf R both cost like $37-40K and get to 60 in the low 4s... thats about where the similarities end.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 06, 2015, 01:03:52 PM
Performance car markets are silo'd by image/configuration though. I have a single buddy with a Challenger SRT8. Works for him, he works from home, no responsibilities, doesn't do any kind of handy work. Has a custom license plate that reads "DIXI" :lol: He wouldnt be caught dead in a little hot hatch. Meanwhile as much as I respect and like muscle cars, their image still makes me snarl, their space inefficiency is deplorable and their impracticality is pretty much a deal breaker for me. So I think there are a lot of cars in the same price and performance bracket but there's not that much cross shopping outside of the little configuration silos. A Camaro SS and Golf R both cost like $37-40K and get to 60 in the low 4s... thats about where the similarities end.
Not sure what you're stating. Used to be the Camaro + Mustang sold well more than 100,000/year each. Let's take 1986 - Mustang sold 226k and the Camaro 192k. Considering the market was far smaller then, that's like selling 350k+ each today. Why hasn't market share held? People still like budget(ish) performance cars, there are just far more available than in 1986 - Challenger, WRX, Genesis Coupe, (downmarket) 370Z, MS3, etc.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 06, 2015, 01:31:39 PM
Not sure what you're stating. Used to be the Camaro + Mustang sold well more than 100,000/year each. Let's take 1986 - Mustang sold 226k and the Camaro 192k. Considering the market was far smaller then, that's like selling 350k+ each today. Why hasn't market share held? People still like budget(ish) performance cars, there are just far more available than in 1986 - Challenger, WRX, Genesis Coupe, (downmarket) 370Z, MS3, etc.
Not necessarily..... back in 86, people absolutely loved coupes... it could def be argued that there is a ~$30K performance model from most brands that replaced old coupes from 86. Beretta-> Sonic RS, Daytona -> defunct SRT-4s, Probe/Thunderbird->Fieasta/Focus STs, Prelude -> Civic Si, 200SX->Juke NISMO etc. etc. So I wouldn't say there's much choice, the choice has just changed to people moving away from coupes. But the pony cars are icons so people are willing to put up with them. Other thing is back in 86 the only way to get a performance car was in coupe form. They lifted that barrier too.
All of the replacements you listed are FWD also. No real Pony Car fan would touch a FWD hot hatch!
27k base, and 37k for the SS
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/21/2016-chevy-camaro-pricing-official/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/21/2016-chevy-camaro-pricing-official/)
Hmmm. Eliminating the stripper LT and 10% price hike for the 1SS also slots it 10% above the Mustang's cost of entry.
Seems they're more interested in making it a niche (higher margin?) product....
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 06, 2015, 01:03:52 PM
Performance car markets are silo'd by image/configuration though.
this- TONS of people buy cars off of looks/image alone, and never read a review.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on August 21, 2015, 09:26:53 AM
27k base, and 37k for the SS
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/21/2016-chevy-camaro-pricing-official/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/21/2016-chevy-camaro-pricing-official/)
27K base and 37K SS....Are those the curb weights?
Quote from: HotRodPilot on August 21, 2015, 09:26:53 AM
27k base, and 37k for the SS
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/21/2016-chevy-camaro-pricing-official/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/21/2016-chevy-camaro-pricing-official/)
Pretty steep unless they're upping the content for 2016. The current 1SS is equipped only slightly better than the basic Mustang GT. Base GT is $32.3K, so that's roughly a 5K difference. A GT Premium is a grand cheaper than the 1SS. And the 1LT was only equipped slightly better than the basic Mustang V6 (and Ecoboost, they come with the same base equipment). I'll be curious how much extra they charge to upgrade to the V6 from the base 2.0T.
EDIT: I see now these prices include destination, so the 1SS costs basically the same as a GT premium (and ~4K more than a base Mustang GT).
I'm getting antsy for SS road tests.
It is serious contention for purchase by yours truly. I still have to resolve myself to having two cars though (in theory I would convert the G into a "beater" for snow/biking/skiing, etc.).
Quote from: GoCougs on August 21, 2015, 05:45:05 PM
He can't help but hate it.
Me????
Not at all, I love fat chicks.
Quote from: GoCougs on August 21, 2015, 06:07:03 PM
I'm getting antsy for SS road tests.
It is serious contention for purchase by yours truly. I still have to resolve myself to having two cars though (in theory I would convert the G into a "beater" for snow/biking/skiing, etc.).
Seems pointless. No track days, no drag strips. And like FBC is saying, it's gonna be heavy. Probably heavier than your G, but a million times less practical. U barely drive as is. What about a used Stingray?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 22, 2015, 07:35:20 AM
Seems pointless. No track days, no drag strips. And like FBC is saying, it's gonna be heavy. Probably heavier than your G, but a million times less practical. U barely drive as is. What about a used Stingray?
I wouldn't say A MILLION TIME LESS PRACTICAL! Im assuming Cougs is a single guy like me with no kids/wife to haul around. It would suit him just fine especially if he keeps the G as his DD.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 22, 2015, 07:35:20 AM
Seems pointless. No track days, no drag strips. And like FBC is saying, it's gonna be heavy. Probably heavier than your G, but a million times less practical. U barely drive as is. What about a used Stingray?
What is going on with this post.
This is neither a track nor drag car.
MY G weighs 3,850 lbs, so it's a match for the current Camaro SS.
I would keep a 2nd car of some sort.
You're not allowed to buy a sports car unless you do track days, duh. Sporty buys cars and talks about doing track days all the time (but never does, it seems, because he's too busy cooking rice frst), so you can't just buy a Camaro and not talk about track days. It's preposterous!
There are only a few legit track cars I can think of new from the factory - Z/28 and 911 GT3/RS and maybe a Ferrari special or w/e.
And if Sporty new track, he'd know the track tears up a car; tires, brakes and of course the risk of accident. Fun I'm sure, but not thanks.
Quote from: giant_mtb on August 22, 2015, 01:09:23 PM
You're not allowed to buy a sports car unless you do track days, duh. Sporty buys cars and talks about doing track days all the time (but never does, it seems, because he's too busy cooking rice frst), so you can't just buy a Camaro and not talk about track days. It's preposterous!
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/210/790/butt-hurt.jpg)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 22, 2015, 07:49:01 PM
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/210/790/butt-hurt.jpg)
Exactly. lol
While Shelby is charging 25 Large to add 25 ponies to a Turbo 4 Pot Stang the Camaro is kicking ass! :rockon: Here's the numbers.
http://jalopnik.com/the-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-is-stupid-quick-does-0-to-1730503112 (http://jalopnik.com/the-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-is-stupid-quick-does-0-to-1730503112)
GM figures and weight for each model.
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/sep/0914-camaro.html (http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/sep/0914-camaro.html)
Sweet baby Jesus they delivered on weight. Says the 3,685 lbs is for the 1SS, so the 2SS with the magnetic shocks will undoubtedly weigh more but still...
0-60 in 4.0 sec and 12.2 sec 1/4 mile is right there with the Corvette and M4, and about what I expected. The V6 though is faster than I expected - that is some serious performance for only ~$28k. Braking looks long to me though.
The Mustang and Challenger are quite literally a decade behind. Hard to say how the market will take to the styling and new higher price points but the Camaro is undoubtedly shaping up to be one of the best cars of 2016 and yet another huge performance win for GM.
The 4-banger is a bit quicker than I would have expected. I was expecting 5.6-5.7 to 60. Also a little surprised that the turbo is the only one that sees performance drop with an auto, since turbos typically benefit most from the power-shifting nature of a traditional auto (Ford's Ecoboost is a few ticks quicker with the 6AT than 6MT). And with the auto having a couple extra ratios... The 6 is pretty much on point. Those numbers are pretty similar to what mags were getting with the previous generation V6 Mustang with performance package, maybe a tick better. Makes me wonder what the Mustang autos will do when Ford dumps the 6AT for the new 10-speed they're working on, since right now the GT clocks the same numbers with either gearbox.
GT350 fighter?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9lI6OiIUe4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9lI6OiIUe4)
Sweet. Sounds better than the GT350 IMO. Looks better too (at least the body work - GT350 just has too much IMO).
1LE is gonna need the LS7 to run with the GT350.
I wanted a gt350 so bad, just can't get over the curb weight.
Maybe in a few generations the mustang will get down there, probably when they go all aloomineum.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on September 20, 2015, 09:09:14 AM
I wanted a gt350 so bad, just can't get over the curb weight.
Maybe in a few generations the mustang will get down there, probably when they go all aloomineum.
It's a steal at $48K. But you should have pre-ordered one.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 19, 2015, 07:20:32 PM
Sweet. Sounds better than the GT350 IMO. Looks better too (at least the body work - GT350 just has too much IMO).
1LE is gonna need the LS7 to run with the GT350.
1LE is just a handling package for the SS (analogous to the Mustang's Performance Pack). It won't be getting a different motor. GT350 is more of a Z/28 competitor than either a 1LE or ZL1. The GT500, when it shows up, will be a ZL1 competitor.
Quote from: MX793 on September 20, 2015, 11:15:25 AM
1LE is just a handling package for the SS (analogous to the Mustang's Performance Pack). It won't be getting a different motor. GT350 is more of a Z/28 competitor than either a 1LE or ZL1. The GT500, when it shows up, will be a ZL1 competitor.
That's the 1LE for the 5th gen. From what I can research no official announcement has been given on what the 1LE will be for the 6th gen (not surprising as it took a 3 years to appear on the 5th gen).
In 5th gen CamaroSpeak a 1LE with a bit more motor is closest to what would compete with the GT350 as the 5th gen Z/28 is far too $$/focused and the ZL1 is a big hp GT punisher. For the 6th gen, the 2SS will be available with MagneRide so significant handling chops are already there.
I doubt an 1LE w/LS7 happens happens since the Corvette has no such analog. I hope I'm wrong though.
Magnaride only addresses shock stiffness. The 5th gen 1LE was shocks, springs, stiffer sway bars, beefier brakes, shorter final drive and a more aggressive wheel and tire package. Also, 1LE was available on either SS trim, whereas I'm pretty sure Magneride will be optional only for the 2SS, and probably bundled as part of a package. So there's still room for a 1LE package in the line, perhaps priced comparably to or below whatever option gets you the Magneride shocks. And not just for the 1SS, but also the V6 if GM wants to make sure it has a leg up on the Ecoboost Mustang (which is available with a performance package). There was no performance or handling package offered on the entry-level gen5 Maro's from the factory.
MagnaRide is hugely more than shock "stiffness." It's a real time damper adjustment which enables advancements elsewhere - tires, springs, chassis stiffness.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 20, 2015, 11:23:46 PM
MagnaRide is hugely more than shock "stiffness." It's a real time damper adjustment which enables advancements elsewhere - tires, springs, chassis stiffness.
Not every model will have MR shocks (the large majority of Camaros sold will not), so chassis stiffness, etc will need to be designed to work well with traditional shocks. They can't optimize around them as they could if they were standard equipment. If it's like many other applications (such as the C6 Corvette), the MR shock option will be shocks-only and not be accompanied by uprated springs and sways. While upgrading to MR shocks will make noticeable improvements, it will not match a handling package that includes upgraded/stiffer springs and sways, as this (older) article shows: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/suspensions-of-disbelief-feature (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/suspensions-of-disbelief-feature)
As I said, there's only so much a shock absorber upgrade alone, even MR, can do. Also doesn't touch other aspects that the outgoing 1LE package upgraded like wider wheels and tires, bigger brakes, and shorter final drive. Ergo, even with the presence of the MRSC option, there's still room for the 1LE package.
Why would anyone want MRSC without all the other go fast goodies though
They should be bundled together IMO.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 23, 2015, 02:17:18 PM
Why would anyone want MRSC without all the other go fast goodies though
They should be bundled together IMO.
It offers benefits even by itself. Because they are dynamic, they can adapt to road surface imperfections on demand to offer a soft ride but reduce or eliminate bottoming out when you do smack a larger bump in the road that a traditional, fixed-rate shock absorber would experience. Response to rapid transient inputs (lane change maneuvers, sudden hard braking) will be similar to having stiffer springs and sways as the shocks can stiffen themselves up in sport mode or in response to certain inputs, but without the ride penalty when set in comfort mode. But because dampers resist velocity and not displacement, in slower transients (steady state cornering or otherwise long, sweeping corners) they cannot limit body motion like a setup with stiffer springs and sways will.
Quote from: MX793 on September 21, 2015, 04:34:36 AM
Not every model will have MR shocks (the large majority of Camaros sold will not), so chassis stiffness, etc will need to be designed to work well with traditional shocks. They can't optimize around them as they could if they were standard equipment. If it's like many other applications (such as the C6 Corvette), the MR shock option will be shocks-only and not be accompanied by uprated springs and sways. While upgrading to MR shocks will make noticeable improvements, it will not match a handling package that includes upgraded/stiffer springs and sways, as this (older) article shows: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/suspensions-of-disbelief-feature (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/suspensions-of-disbelief-feature)
As I said, there's only so much a shock absorber upgrade alone, even MR, can do. Also doesn't touch other aspects that the outgoing 1LE package upgraded like wider wheels and tires, bigger brakes, and shorter final drive. Ergo, even with the presence of the MRSC option, there's still room for the 1LE package.
Chassis stiffness can most definitely be tailored for an option package with relatively little work using add-ons such as bracing, bushings and sub frame connection methods (see ZL1, GT500, CTS-V, etc.).
Chassis performance is a holistic, systemic design endeavor and IMO MR alters chassis character too much to simply be an add-on. I'd bet a handsome sum that MR-optioned vehicles have accompanying changes at least somewhere - chassis stiffness and/or sways and/or springs and/or bushings and/or suspension geometry.
I'd also bet a 1LE will have to approach Z28 levels of (severe) compromise to best a MR-equipped SS. As such, my hunch is the 1LE package goes away for lack of distinction leaving the Z28 (and probably watered down to not cost so much) to go head-to-head with the GT350.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 04:08:08 PM
Chassis stiffness can most definitely be tailored for an option package with relatively little work using add-ons such as bracing, bushings and sub frame connection methods (see ZL1, GT500, CTS-V, etc.).
Chassis performance is a holistic, systemic design endeavor and IMO MR alters chassis character too much to simply be an add-on. I'd bet a handsome sum that MR-optioned vehicles have accompanying changes at least somewhere - chassis stiffness and/or sways and/or springs and/or bushings and/or suspension geometry.
I'd also bet a 1LE will have to approach Z28 levels of (severe) compromise to best a MR-equipped SS. As such, my hunch is the 1LE package goes away for lack of distinction leaving the Z28 (and probably watered down to not cost so much) to go head-to-head with the GT350.
I wouldn't hold my breath. Corvette, CTS, DTS... MRC option is not packaged with uprated spring rates or sways. The ATS 2.0T Premium is the only example I can find where getting MRC automatically gets you the FE3 sport suspension as well.
Based on the order sheets/guides that have been leaked, the F55 MRC suspension option is stand-alone (and estimated at $1,700) for both 1SS or 2SS and no mention of it being packaged with any additional suspension or chassis upgrades (e.g. FE4 performance suspension, strut tower braces, etc). I predict sways and spring rates will be the same between MRC and non-MRC SSes.
What do you consider "uprated"? I'm not 100% sure, but different springs rates wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I can double check, but if there was any benefit to changing the spring rate when switching to magnaride, it would be done without hesitation.
Quote from: MX793 on September 23, 2015, 08:49:15 PM
I wouldn't hold my breath. Corvette, CTS, DTS... MRC option is not packaged with uprated spring rates or sways. The ATS 2.0T Premium is the only example I can find where getting MRC automatically gets you the FE3 sport suspension as well.
Based on the order sheets/guides that have been leaked, the F55 MRC suspension option is stand-alone (and estimated at $1,700) for both 1SS or 2SS and no mention of it being packaged with any additional suspension or chassis upgrades (e.g. FE4 performance suspension, strut tower braces, etc). I predict sways and spring rates will be the same between MRC and non-MRC SSes.
How do you know MR isn't accompanied by other changes in those other cars? Retail spec sheets aren't going to get into details on sway bar size, spring rates, bushing type, suspension geometry, chassis stiffening, etc.
In looking at factory C7 front suspension parts (http://www.gmpartsnow.com/auto-parts/2014/chevrolet/corvette/stingray-trim/6-2l-v8-gas-engine/front-suspension-cat/upper-control-arm-scat), they call out three different shock part types - "soft ride suspension," "sport suspension" and "ride & handling susp." Note the first two are about the same price and relatively cheap at ~$90. These are most likely the standard and Z51 shocks, respectively. However, note the "ride & handling susp" shock is more than $400; this is most likely the MagneRide shock. Now note that there are also three different leaf spring types by the same names - "soft ride suspension," "sport suspension" and "ride & handling susp." Unlike the Camaro the Corvette spring is physically separate from the shock so the only logical reason to have a different part number for each spring is because each spring has a unique rate profile.
In the C&D article comparing suspension options for Corvettes, the MRC option did have its own spring compared to the base to make up for the change from gas charged shocks, which adds a spring component to the damper. Total spring rate at each corner was the same between MRC and base suspension.
I notice you didn't look for sway bars. (Hint: there are only 2 ;))
Also, the C7 is a bad example since GM changed up the suspension options so that in order to get MRC you have to get the Z51 package. On C5 and C6, MRC was separate and incompatible with Z51. Looking at the C6, there are 3 springs and 3 dampers (soft, R&H, and sport) but only 2 sway bars: one for soft/R&H and one for sport.
Wait, so what's even the argument anymore?
Cut the springs.
Quote from: MrH on September 24, 2015, 07:05:01 AM
Wait, so what's even the argument anymore?
That MRC will not be a comprehensive performance suspension upgrade on par with what the 1LE provides and that there will be room for a 1LE package despite available MRC.
Slightly stiffer sway bars isn't the make or break distinguishing factor.
What makes the 1LE so competitive is largely such wide wheels.
Quote from: MrH on September 24, 2015, 07:29:30 AM
Slightly stiffer sway bars isn't the make or break distinguishing factor.
What makes the 1LE so competitive is largely such wide wheels.
The wheel and tire package is the single biggest performance adder, but the springs and sways make a difference. Even when fitted with the same wheels and tires, the Z51 Vette lapped faster than the MRC car in the C&D article previously posted. And I pretty much guarantee that, wheels and tires equal, the gen5 1LE outlaps a regular SS.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on September 24, 2015, 07:06:33 AM
Cut the springs.
I hear that GM actually has a hidden menu within their system on MRC equipped cars. It allows you to set the number of coils cut(from 0-Stock to 4-RaceCar), it's pretty hard to get to. GM only releases the information to high profile race teams.
Quote from: MX793 on September 24, 2015, 04:11:50 AM
In the C&D article comparing suspension options for Corvettes, the MRC option did have its own spring compared to the base to make up for the change from gas charged shocks, which adds a spring component to the damper. Total spring rate at each corner was the same between MRC and base suspension.
I notice you didn't look for sway bars. (Hint: there are only 2 ;))
So GM added more "spring" to the MR leaf to exactly match the base spring? Nah, c'mon, man, and not only because the spring rate profile of a transverse composite mono leaf is gonna be different than a coil. They couldn't match it if they wanted. Additionally, MR is available with both base and Z51 suspension, which logically eliminates the situation by having its own spring.
I had stated "and/or" in terms of what attributes may be modified to accommodate MR:
Quote from: GoCougs on September 23, 2015, 04:08:08 PM
Chassis performance is a holistic, systemic design endeavor and IMO MR alters chassis character too much to simply be an add-on. I'd bet a handsome sum that MR-optioned vehicles have accompanying changes at least somewhere - chassis stiffness and/or sways and/or springs and/or bushings and/or suspension geometry.
However, to wit, let's look a the CTS-Vsport front suspension (http://www.gmpartsnow.com/auto-parts/2015/cadillac/cts/vsport-trim/3-6l-v6-gas-engine/front-suspension-cat/front-suspension-scat). Again, multiple options - "w/o sport suspenion" and "w/sport suspension" - and again looking at price for the struts (~$115 vs. ~$450) the latter is the MR strut. Now also note there are separate call outs for springs and sway bars for each suspension option.
In summary, MR is not an "add-on" option to existing suspension. It is a complicated subsystem that works in concert with the whole of suspension - tires, springs, shocks/struts, sways, geometry, chassis stiffness. It requires unique/additional attributes in at least some of these areas as demonstrated in both the Corvette and CTS-Vsport.
Quote from: MrH on September 24, 2015, 07:05:01 AM
Wait, so what's even the argument anymore?
The allegation was MR was simply an add-on to an existing suspension setup, and as such wouldn't/couldn't easily match or exceed the performance of a non-MR version of the same car equipped with a more focused hi-po suspension. I think that unlikely.
MR is complicated and capable - it is not just an "add-on" to an existing suspension as shown, at least with the Corvette and CTS-Vsport. I do not think the current 1LE could match or exceed a MR-equipped SS.
If the 1LE exists for the 6th gen, it will be a trim level (and in effect a different car a la GT350, ZL1, Z/28, etc.) OR it will exist but will require MR.
Quote from: GoCougs on September 24, 2015, 12:17:26 PM
So GM added more "spring" to the MR leaf to exactly match the base spring? Nah, c'mon, man, and not only because the spring rate profile of a transverse composite mono leaf is gonna be different than a coil. They couldn't match it if they wanted.
It's unfortunate that the facts don't support your opinion.
Since you apparently don't bother to read linked material, let me post the pertinent bits from the article, provided to C&D by GM's engineers.
From the C&D article:
QuoteBase and MSRC suspension hardware are functionally identical except for the shocks. The base car's high-pressure monotube gas-charged shocks contribute to the overall spring rate, so to compensate and make the two packages behave the same, the base car's front transverse leaf spring is softened slightly.
Suspension specs between the base, F55 (MRC), and Z51 on the C5 Corvette (F/R/FSway/RSway)
Base: 440/577/.91x.15/.68x.10
MRC: 457/577/.91x.15/.68x.10
Z51: 525/634/1.13x.18/.93x.14
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/suspensions-of-disbeliefsuspensions-of-disbelief-specs.pdf (http://media.caranddriver.com/files/suspensions-of-disbeliefsuspensions-of-disbelief-specs.pdf)
This carried through the C6 generation as well. Check 2005 Corvette suspension parts ('05 chosen because there were no Z06 or ZR1 models to muddy the waters in GMParts, more on that later) and you'll see 3 springs (base, R&H, and Sport), 3 dampers (base, R&H, and Sport) but only 2 sway bars (Base/R&H and Sport).
QuoteAdditionally, MR is available with both base and Z51 suspension, which logically eliminates the situation by having its own spring.
On the C7, yes. On C5 and '05-'09 C6, you could not get the MRC with the Z51 suspension.
http://www.c6registry.com/facts/2005.htm (http://www.c6registry.com/facts/2005.htm)
http://www.c6registry.com/facts/2009-order-guide.pdf (http://www.c6registry.com/facts/2009-order-guide.pdf)
Note how next to the F55 MRC option is says "Not available with performance handling package" or "Not available with Z51 Performance Package". When the Z51 package was replaced by the Grand Sport, MRC became available across the board.
QuoteHowever, to wit, let's look a the CTS-Vsport front suspension (http://www.gmpartsnow.com/auto-parts/2015/cadillac/cts/vsport-trim/3-6l-v6-gas-engine/front-suspension-cat/front-suspension-scat). Again, multiple options - "w/o sport suspenion" and "w/sport suspension" - and again looking at price for the struts (~$115 vs. ~$450) the latter is the MR strut. Now also note there are separate call outs for springs and sway bars for each suspension option.
The problem with the GMParts website is that it doesn't give you trim-specific parts. You need to be careful when looking at the parts it turns up to make sure they actually go with your model and trim level. Select the CTS V-sport and you get all parts for all CTS trims. All V6 CTS models, including the V-sport, have MRC as standard equipment (only 2.0T models come with the cheaper, regular struts), so the fact that the cheaper, regular struts show up at all is a big red flag that you're not only seeing V-sport parts. Also, the V-sport only comes with the uprated performance suspension with no other suspension options. Another red flag that you're seeing more than V-sport parts in the listing.
While all V6 CTS models get MRC, not all of them have the uprated performance suspension (base 3.6 is only available with the standard suspension, V-sports come with the performance suspension by default).
QuoteIn summary, MR is not an "add-on" option to existing suspension. It is a complicated subsystem that works in concert with the whole of suspension - tires, springs, shocks/struts, sways, geometry, chassis stiffness. It requires unique/additional attributes in at least some of these areas as demonstrated in both the Corvette and CTS-Vsport.
Facts don't quite back that up.
Actually, the C&D article is for early gen MR, and well, MR even then it had its own spring (?). Unless you can cite a GM suspension engineer who works on the Corvette, I cannot believe that the spring rate profile of a shock with some inherent springiness used with transverse leaf A can be exactly modeled with a standalone transverse leaf B, nor can I believe that is what best suits MR performance even if it were possible.
Okay, so its shown that for current-gen MR its own unique suspension components, but what if that couldn't be proven? IMO basic control theory tells us.
MR is much more than "stiffness." It's about making the endeavor of damping a high bandwidth dynamical system, which in addition to dynamically changing damping based on road and vehicle conditions, it also begets such issues/concerns as bandwidth, resonance, and transients. So, as I look into my crystal ball, I probably see MR-specific springs not only having a unique rate progression, my hunch is there are some other properties to the springs as well.
To speak further to the MR as not an "add-on" system, I see that the Corvette's MR option also requires Performance Traction Management. Thinking about it a bit it's not a surprise. PTM turns stability control into a high bandwidth dynamic system too, courtesy of the high bandwidth effect and feedback of MR.
In summary, MR is a complex high performance system that requires unique suspension components and is integral in other performance systems.
C&D has a review up: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-automatic-test-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-automatic-test-review)
TL;DR: It's fast. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and the quarter in 12.3 at 116. Those are Corvette numbers.
Not only C7 numbers but also 5th generation ZL1/Z28 numbers, 2nd gen CTS-V numbers and M4 numbers, etc., etc.
Any surprise it's class leading/world class given the LT-1, new Alpha chassis underpinning the ATS and higher price point ($47k as-tested!)? Hell, no!
1SS M/T
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-first-test-review/ (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-first-test-review/)
V6
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/16/2016-chevrolet-camaro-first-drive-review-video/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/16/2016-chevrolet-camaro-first-drive-review-video/)
C&D's is a bit more comprehensive. The highlights:
-Impressively fast (well faster than the Mustang)
-Good handling without compromising ride quality (theirs had Magneride)
-Interior quality is improved but still with some notable cheapness (their tester stickered at over $47k). Also some minor ergonomic issues with the layout.
-Interior feels much more cramped than the Mustang.
-Outward visibility is still "abysmal". According to them, just as bad as the outgoing model.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 15, 2015, 11:09:38 PM
Not only C7 numbers but also 5th generation ZL1/Z28 numbers, 2nd gen CTS-V numbers and M4 numbers, etc., etc.
Any surprise it's class leading/world class given the LT-1, new Alpha chassis underpinning the ATS and higher price point ($47k as-tested!)? Hell, no!
Sounds like it was loaded to the hilt. The MT test car was ~38k.
Quote from: afty on October 15, 2015, 10:35:09 PM
C&D has a review up: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-automatic-test-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-automatic-test-review)
TL;DR: It's fast. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds and the quarter in 12.3 at 116. Those are Corvette numbers.
Impressive, indeed.
I'm still wondering if the C7 Z51 is a better value though. I feel like it will be more practical and that much better to drive. Just like with the ATS GM delivered the goods WRT hauling the mail........................................... but they dropped the ball on a lot of other stuff.
Still though. Fuck. 12 second quarter mile for $35K. If performance per $$$ is your guiding metric this thing delivers in spades
Base price for a 1SS is over $37k now.
Dating back to the first Camaro of 1967, I think it's always been the better car (or at least the one I prefer more) than the Corvette and it's even more so today - better styling, more practical, fantastic driving experience (esp. the ZL1, which was simply a better car than the C6 for the same money) and will hold up better over the years.
This new Camaro just rewrote the book on budget performance let alone the "pony car" class. I'm still hopping for a N/A equivalent to the GT350 but nothing official yet from GM. The ZL1 was the best of the bunch but it was a bit too much of a dreadnought for my tastes. Give me an SS with a N/A "LT7" w/550-575 hp and call it a day.
Quote from: MX793 on October 16, 2015, 08:02:04 AM
Base price for a 1SS is over $37k now.
I wonder if that was always the target price or if they became the target after the Mustang was released (and they realized the performance from the new SS was enough above the Mustang GT to conceptually make it worth it).
Quote from: GoCougs on October 16, 2015, 11:40:23 AM
Dating back to the first Camaro of 1967, I think it's always been the better car (or at least the one I prefer more) than the Corvette and it's even more so today - better styling, more practical, fantastic driving experience (esp. the ZL1, which was simply a better car than the C6 for the same money) and will hold up better over the years.
This new Camaro just rewrote the book on budget performance let alone the "pony car" class. I'm still hopping for a N/A equivalent to the GT350 but nothing official yet from GM. The ZL1 was the best of the bunch but it was a bit too much of a dreadnought for my tastes. Give me an SS with a N/A "LT7" w/550-575 hp and call it a day.
I think this might be the first Camaro that is less practical than the Vette. Only thing it has on the Vette is the rear parcel shelf they call a back seat.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on October 16, 2015, 01:04:08 PM
I wonder if that was always the target price or if they became the target after the Mustang was released (and they realized the performance from the new SS was enough above the Mustang GT to conceptually make it worth it).
Takes 4-5+ years to design a car (which includes design of the pricing structure) so my bet is that was price point from the beginning. Plus, the Camaro has almost always cost a bit more than the Mustang.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 16, 2015, 03:00:31 PM
I think this might be the first Camaro that is less practical than the Vette. Only thing it has on the Vette is the rear parcel shelf they call a back seat.
Have you ever been within 10' of a modern Corvette? I can't imagine anyone that has agreeing with your statement.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 16, 2015, 03:00:31 PM
I think this might be the first Camaro that is less practical than the Vette. Only thing it has on the Vette is the rear parcel shelf they call a back seat.
You bugging! LOL!! The Vette can hold a lot of stuff but it will always be less practical than the Camaro!
Camaro less practical than Corvette? Whaaaaa?
Vette has better visibility, better MPG, and is a hatchback :muffin:
Road and Track test of a ?SS 8AT
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a27066/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-first-drive/ (http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a27066/2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-first-drive/)
V6 2LT 6MT
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-v-6-manual-test-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-v-6-manual-test-review)
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on October 16, 2015, 04:14:09 PM
Vette has better visibility, better MPG, and is a hatchback :muffin:
Exactly.
I suppose if you need a back seat more than you need a trunk the Camaro may be better, but only if you need that back seat for children and midgets. Vette has more headroom, will be easier to park if you live in a city or go into one a lot, etc. etc. I'd rather have no back seat than a back seat that is not 100% usable.
I wonder if Chevy will sell periscope accessories?
3750-3800 lbs, there wasn't much actual weight savings. A far cry from the 3500 lbs that was peddled about. At most 100 lbs lighter.
At $47K, just spend a few grand more and get the GT350.
Quote from: SVT32V on October 17, 2015, 09:02:12 AM
3750-3800 lbs, there wasn't much actual weight savings. A far cry from the 3500 lbs that was peddled about. At most 100 lbs lighter.
At $47K, just spend a few grand more and get the GT350.
V6 and I4 models are down around 3500 lbs, which is a pretty good drop from the outgoing model.
Quote from: SVT32V on October 17, 2015, 09:02:12 AM
3750-3800 lbs, there wasn't much actual weight savings. A far cry from the 3500 lbs that was peddled about. At most 100 lbs lighter.
At $47K, just spend a few grand more and get the GT350.
The car tested was a LOADED V8! Models with less options aren't as heavy! V6 and the Turbo are even lighter. Also the SS can be had for under 40K! And If you think your getting a GT350 for sticker price you're nutty as squirrel shit! :cheers:
One of the mags had a base 1SS that weighed 3670.
Quote from: SVT32V on October 17, 2015, 09:02:12 AM
3750-3800 lbs, there wasn't much actual weight savings. A far cry from the 3500 lbs that was peddled about. At most 100 lbs lighter.
At $47K, just spend a few grand more and get the GT350.
GM has always quoted "around 200 lbs" savings. For the SS, minimum savings is 175 lbs and average is a bit over 200 lbs:
2015: 1SS is 3908 lbs and 2SS is 3935 lbs (from Chevy's website (http://www.chevrolet.com/camaro-sports-car/specs/trims.html))
2016: 1SS w/out MagneRide and w/M/T is 3670 lbs (238 lbs less) and the 2SS w/MagneRide and w/A/T is 3760 lbs (175 lbs less).
The problem with your comparison is the base $49k GT350 (w/out MagneRide) is likely not too much a better performer than an SS w/MagneRide and it will be a stripper. Outfitted equivalently to a fully loaded $47k SS the GT350 comes in at $49k base + $7,500 Tech Package (MagneRide + luxury stuff) + $800 nav + dest = $58k.
I should also say it's now pretty obvious why Ford super rushed a very limited number of GT350s for MY2015 release ;).
Can't lie, Ford has a serious problem on its hands for a long time. Camaro hits where it hurts, hard. And Ford can't hit back
So it went from fatter than shit to just plain fat.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 17, 2015, 06:39:28 PM
Can't lie, Ford has a serious problem on its hands for a long time. Camaro hits where it hurts, hard. And Ford can't hit back
It will be interesting to see how/if Ford answers. There's still more power left in the 5.0. It was designed to utilize DI, but currently does not. As the VooDoo shows, they've got some room for a bit of a displacement bump as well. Or perhaps, as it was in the 90s, they won't really respond. The F-body walked all over the SN95 from '94-'02 in any measure of performance and it didn't seem to matter.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 17, 2015, 06:39:28 PM
Can't lie, Ford has a serious problem on its hands for a long time. Camaro hits where it hurts, hard. And Ford can't hit back
Well, for starters, Ford is stuck with the goofy power train segmentation. How could that have ever been a good idea? By initial reviews the Ecoboost simply doesn't measure up against the V6. GM's 8 sp AT is another problem - Ford has no answer as of yet. There can be differentiation with the "super" versions (GT500 was a very different car than the ZL1, GM hasn't announced a GT350 competitor yet) but then again they're just a sliver of the brand.
Motor Trend tests RS V6 - they maintain visibility has improved "vastly": http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/2016-chevrolet-camaro-rs-v-6-first-test-review/. (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/2016-chevrolet-camaro-rs-v-6-first-test-review/.)
Quote from: MX793 on October 17, 2015, 07:30:58 PM
It will be interesting to see how/if Ford answers. There's still more power left in the 5.0. It was designed to utilize DI, but currently does not. As the VooDoo shows, they've got some room for a bit of a displacement bump as well. Or perhaps, as it was in the 90s, they won't really respond. The F-body walked all over the SN95 from '94-'02 in any measure of performance and it didn't seem to matter.
The Coyote 5.0's challenge isn't necessarily lack of power, it's lack of VVL. As it is currently, with steeper gearing (by 60 mph it's already in 3rd gear), a bit more power and a bit less weight, the Mustang wasn't any quicker than the 2015 Camaro SS. Now the Mustang is 75-150 lbs heavier and down 20 hp vs. the 2016 Camaro SS and is behind substantially in acceleration. To match the 2016 Camaro SS in acceleration with all else the same (no VVL) IMO the Coyote will need 475-500 hp.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 17, 2015, 08:20:05 PM
The Coyote 5.0's challenge isn't necessarily lack of power, it's lack of VVL. As it is currently, with steeper gearing (by 60 mph it's already in 3rd gear), a bit more power and a bit less weight, the Mustang wasn't any quicker than the 2015 Camaro SS. Now the Mustang is 75-150 lbs heavier and down 20 hp vs. the 2016 Camaro SS and is behind substantially in acceleration. To match the 2016 Camaro SS in acceleration with all else the same (no VVL) IMO the Coyote will need 475-500 hp.
Having to shift into 3rd to hit 60 is a detriment. That usually costs 2-3 tenths to 60 vs the same car geared to hit 60 with 1 shift. But that's moot since even with 3.73s, the GTPP can hit 60 in 2nd gear. And the only 5G Camaro SS that matched the S550 GTPP was the 1LE, which has similarly steep gearing and more rear tire (hooks up better at launch).
DI, and the accompanying increase in CR should fatten the Mustang's power curve across the range. So would a displacement increase to 5.2L. Between the 2, I would think 465 hp/430 lb-ft would be within reason.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 17, 2015, 08:04:27 PM
Well, for starters, Ford is stuck with the goofy power train segmentation. How could that have ever been a good idea? By initial reviews the Ecoboost simply doesn't measure up against the V6. GM's 8 sp AT is another problem - Ford has no answer as of yet. There can be differentiation with the "super" versions (GT500 was a very different car than the ZL1, GM hasn't announced a GT350 competitor yet) but then again they're just a sliver of the brand.
Rumor has it that the Mustang will get Ford's new 10 speed auto in 2017.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 17, 2015, 08:15:58 PM
Motor Trend tests RS V6 - they maintain visibility has improved "vastly": http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/2016-chevrolet-camaro-rs-v-6-first-test-review/. (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/2016-chevrolet-camaro-rs-v-6-first-test-review/.)
Improved doesn't mean good. If a student takes a test and only gets 10% of the questions correct and then takes the test a second time and scores a 25%, they have vastly improved but still scored poorly.
The Camaro's visibility issues were 360 degrees. Difficulty seeing traffic lights if you were the first car in line. Cowl was so high that low-lying obstacles, like traffic cones, fall out of view well in front of you. The A pillars could hide a horse standing on the crosswalk. Beltline was so high that low-lying obstacles in relatively close proximity cannot be seen. Rear quarter windows did nothing other than let a little light into the rear seat area. And the rear window was a mail slot, positioned high so that I doubt you could see a shopping cart if someone left one behind you.
I've heard mixed reviews of the 6G's visibility. Some say it's no better. Some say the view forward is much better, but everywhere else is the same or worse. Others say "much improved" without any elaboration on whether that's all over or just certain areas. One thing I have not heard anyone say is that the visibility out is now good or even equal to or better than the Mustang.
Quote from: MX793 on October 18, 2015, 05:27:34 AM
Rumor has it that the Mustang will get Ford's new 10 speed auto in 2017.
This is not enough speeds.
Visibility is for pussies that need to see the road to drive.
Quote from: MX793 on October 18, 2015, 05:25:02 AM
Having to shift into 3rd to hit 60 is a detriment. That usually costs 2-3 tenths to 60 vs the same car geared to hit 60 with 1 shift. But that's moot since even with 3.73s, the GTPP can hit 60 in 2nd gear. And the only 5G Camaro SS that matched the S550 GTPP was the 1LE, which has similarly steep gearing and more rear tire (hooks up better at launch).
DI, and the accompanying increase in CR should fatten the Mustang's power curve across the range. So would a displacement increase to 5.2L. Between the 2, I would think 465 hp/430 lb-ft would be within reason.
Interesting. The Mustang GT's new 275/40/19 rear tire (vs. the old 255/40/19) just puts it into 60 mph in 2nd now...
Camaro SS 1LE only had shorter gearing in 3rd and 4th gears but it didn't make a ton of difference owing to the advantage in the upper registers (= muted) - any 5th gen Camaro SS M/T was a 12.9-13.0 car. Even so, the Mustang GT still had significantly shorter gearing than the 1LE (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2015-ford-mustang-gt-vs-chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le-dodge-challenger-r-t-scat-pack-final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-5):
Speed in gear Camaro SS/Camaro SS 1LE/Mustang GT
1st: 52/51/42
2nd: 77/76/62
3rd: 110/104/89
4th: 157/137/114
5th: 157 (governed)/156 (governed)/149
465 hp will help but judging by the deficit, esp. in 1/4 mile (12.3 vs. 13.0) the Coyote needs a lot more or VVL.
Quote from: MX793 on October 18, 2015, 06:00:00 AM
Improved doesn't mean good. If a student takes a test and only gets 10% of the questions correct and then takes the test a second time and scores a 25%, they have vastly improved but still scored poorly.
The Camaro's visibility issues were 360 degrees. Difficulty seeing traffic lights if you were the first car in line. Cowl was so high that low-lying obstacles, like traffic cones, fall out of view well in front of you. The A pillars could hide a horse standing on the crosswalk. Beltline was so high that low-lying obstacles in relatively close proximity cannot be seen. Rear quarter windows did nothing other than let a little light into the rear seat area. And the rear window was a mail slot, positioned high so that I doubt you could see a shopping cart if someone left one behind you.
I've heard mixed reviews of the 6G's visibility. Some say it's no better. Some say the view forward is much better, but everywhere else is the same or worse. Others say "much improved" without any elaboration on whether that's all over or just certain areas. One thing I have not heard anyone say is that the visibility out is now good or even equal to or better than the Mustang.
The played around with the top of the dash to aid visibility. Judging by the 5th gen's success no one really cares. It's a bit different driving experience but I think it's awesome.
Quote from: GoCougs on October 18, 2015, 11:04:48 AM
Interesting. The Mustang GT's new 275/40/19 rear tire (vs. the old 255/40/19) just puts it into 60 mph in 2nd now...
Camaro SS 1LE only had shorter gearing in 3rd and 4th gears but it didn't make a ton of difference owing to the advantage in the upper registers (= muted) - any 5th gen Camaro SS M/T was a 12.9-13.0 car. Even so, the Mustang GT still had significantly shorter gearing than the 1LE (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2015-ford-mustang-gt-vs-chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le-dodge-challenger-r-t-scat-pack-final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-5):
Speed in gear Camaro SS/Camaro SS 1LE/Mustang GT
1st: 52/51/42
2nd: 77/76/62
3rd: 110/104/89
4th: 157/137/114
5th: 157 (governed)/156 (governed)/149
465 hp will help but judging by the deficit, esp. in 1/4 mile (12.3 vs. 13.0) the Coyote needs a lot more or VVL.
Part of the 1LE package was a 3.93 final drive vs 3.45 in the regular SS. Something's not adding up...
Quote from: GoCougs on October 18, 2015, 11:08:41 AM
The played around with the top of the dash to aid visibility. Judging by the 5th gen's success no one really cares. It's a bit different driving experience but I think it's awesome.
Some people cared. I walked away from buying a Gen5 because of it. That is, in fact, why I give the car such a hard time over it. It was at the top of my list 5 years ago, but the visibility completely put me off. My uncle, a GM guy for as long as I can remember, was put off by the visibility as well and ended up with an S197 (a hopped up GT500 clone). I've heard plenty of others express similar sentiment.
For regular street driving, you can adjust. Tight or congested parking lots (with curbed islands) would be nerve wracking, though. As an avid autocrosser, forward and front-quarter visibility is very important to me. Hard to navigate an autocross course when you can't see the cones.
Quote from: MX793 on October 18, 2015, 11:12:53 AM
Part of the 1LE package was a 3.93 final drive vs 3.45 in the regular SS. Something's not adding up...
The other part of the 1LE package was also different transmission such that gears 3 and 4 (mostly 4) were shortened for mid range/track emphasis.
Camaro SS 1LE w/3.91: (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2015-ford-mustang-gt-vs-chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le-dodge-challenger-r-t-scat-pack-final-scoring-performance-data-and-complete-specs-page-5)
1st: 2.66 * 3.91= 10.40:1
2nd: 1.78 * 3.91= 6.96:1
3rd: 1.30 * 3.91= 5.08:1
4th: 1.00 * 3.91= 3.91:1
5th: 0.74 * 3.91= 2.89:1
6th: 0.50 * 3.91= 1.96:1
Camaro SS w/3.45: (http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2011-ford-mustang-v6-vs-2010-chevrolet-camaro-rspony-car-twin-bill.pdf)
1st: 3.01 * 3.45 = 10.38:1
2nd: 2.07 * 3.45 = 7.14:1
3rd: 1.43 * 3.45 = 4.93:1
4th: 1.00 * 3.45 = 3.45:1
5th: 0.84 * 3.45 = 2.90:1
6th: 0.57 * 3.45 = 1.97:1
December 2015 issue of Motor Trend has a head-to-head comparo of the 2016 Camaro 1SS vs. 2016 Mustang GT Performance Pack.
As expected, it wasn't really a contest in objective performance - the Camaro is at least a generation ahead, and the car was not equipped with MagneRide. For subjective performance (steeling/brake/gearbox feel, engine note) they also gave the Camaro the nod by a notable margin. Mustang had a bit more compliant ride and a nicer interior (and it should, considering it was loaded up with almost $12k in options (!)).
Quote from: GoCougs on November 01, 2015, 06:05:36 PM
December 2015 issue of Motor Trend has a head-to-head comparo of the 2016 Camaro 1SS vs. 2016 Mustang GT Performance Pack.
As expected, it wasn't really a contest in objective performance - the Camaro is at least a generation ahead, and the car was not equipped with MagneRide. For subjective performance (steeling/brake/gearbox feel, engine note) they also gave the Camaro the nod by a notable margin. Mustang had a bit more compliant ride and a nicer interior (and it should, considering it was loaded up with almost $12k in options (!)).
It was a Ass whipping from Ding to Dong.....
Quote from: MX793 on October 17, 2015, 10:00:50 AM
One of the mags had a base 1SS that weighed 3670.
Wow, that's pretty good. I wonder if they had to tie the car down when they weren't driving it, otherwise it might float away.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 01, 2015, 06:05:36 PM
December 2015 issue of Motor Trend has a head-to-head comparo of the 2016 Camaro 1SS vs. 2016 Mustang GT Performance Pack.
As expected, it wasn't really a contest in objective performance - the Camaro is at least a generation ahead, and the car was not equipped with MagneRide. For subjective performance (steeling/brake/gearbox feel, engine note) they also gave the Camaro the nod by a notable margin. Mustang had a bit more compliant ride and a nicer interior (and it should, considering it was loaded up with almost $12k in options (!)).
Picked up the latest C&D at the grocery store last night for their comparing. MT giving the nod to the Camaro isn't surprising since they just don't seem to be big fans of the Mustang. But even C&D gave the win to the Camaro, and they've typically overlooked performance differences in favor of the Mustang's more well-rounded nature. They still contend that the Mustang is the nicer car to drive every day by virtue of its larger trunk, better Outward visibility, roomier cabin, and nicer interior. But thanks to the MR shocks, Camaro no longer gives up any points for the ride/handling balance like the old 1le and the interior has closed the gap.
I've got to hand it to GM on this one. Much bigger strides between Gen5 and Gen6 than Ford brought with the latest Mustang. Will be very interesting to see if/how Ford responds.
Quote from: MX793 on November 03, 2015, 06:16:08 AM
Picked up the latest C&D at the grocery store last night for their comparing. MT giving the nod to the Camaro's isn't surprising since they just don't seem to be big fans of the Mustang. But even C&D gave the win to the Camaro's, and they've typically overlooked performance differences in favor of the Mustang's more well-rounded nature. They still contend that the Mustang is the nicer car to drive every day by virtue of its larger trunk, better Outward visibility, roomier cabin, and nicer interior. But thanks to the MR shocks, Camaro's no longer gives up any points for the ride/handling balance like the old 1le and the interior has closed the gap.
I've got to hand it to GM on this one. Much bigger strides between Gen5 and Gen6 than Ford brought with the latest Mustang. Will be very interesting to see if/how Ford responds.
Ford must respond swiftly by accenting what they already have: elements of a better daily driver.
A shooting-brake hatchback with a larger rear seat and rear half-doors would make it a car people can not only abuse, but also use. Switch it to a FWD layout and flatten the rear floor. Simple things like that would embarass any Camaro driver.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 03, 2015, 06:33:29 AM
Ford must respond swiftly by accenting what they already have: elements of a better daily driver.
A shooting-brake hatchback with a larger rear seat and rear half-doors would make it a car people can not only abuse, but also use. Switch it to a FWD layout and flatten the rear floor. Simple things like that would embarass any Camaro driver.
i lol'd
FWIW the C&D comparo was very close, with only 2 points separating the cars.
I saw two 2016s w/ Michigan plates on the way to work this morning. I'm not a fan of the current Mustang's looks, the Camaro looks much much better in comparison.
And that's my $0.02
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/11/chevrolet-goes-all-out-with-gen-six-camaro-concepts-for-sema.html (http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/11/chevrolet-goes-all-out-with-gen-six-camaro-concepts-for-sema.html)
Got my December 2015 C&D finally.
C&D's goofy ass girl-based rating system is ridiculous.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 09, 2015, 08:49:35 PM
Got my December 2015 C&D finally.
C&D's goofy ass girl-based rating system is ridiculous.
Does that mean they liked the Mustang better...?
No, the SS won handily. Article was pretty poorly written and too short though IMO. C&D in general has been a little meh the last few months
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 10, 2015, 07:41:35 AM
No, the SS won handily. Article was pretty poorly written and too short though IMO. C&D in general has been a little meh the last few months
Few months? C&D has been pretty meh for years.
Camaro won the performance categories handily. Mustang won the non-performance categories (ergonomics, comfort, price, etc) pretty handily. In the end they were only separated by 2 points. Mustang was the better GT car, Camaro was the better "sports" car and their pick overall.
"Taking a couple fat girls to the dance"
"See the mustang and camaro go double chin to double chin in this months feature comparison!!!"
In next months issue we cover how to repair cracked asphalt after our pony car comparison."
Quote from: SJ_GTI on November 10, 2015, 06:13:48 AM
Does that mean they liked the Mustang better...?
No, that was just a general complaint - the rating system has always been goofy if not painful, esp. in the weighting for performance cars. C&D is just not very good these days, point system as well as writing.
Although it's still a better read than MT Ezra Dyer is the lone bright spot in C&D now a days.....
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 10, 2015, 08:26:53 AM
"Taking a couple fat girls to the dance"
"See the mustang and camaro go double chin to double chin in this months feature comparison!!!"
In next months issue we cover how to repair cracked asphalt after our pony car comparison."
Best check this out.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/revelation-chevy-thats-better-bmw/?sm_id=social_aumomotortrendhub_MotorTrend_20151117_55373196&adbid=10153340324106312&adbpl=fb&adbpr=18332466311 (http://www.motortrend.com/news/revelation-chevy-thats-better-bmw/?sm_id=social_aumomotortrendhub_MotorTrend_20151117_55373196&adbid=10153340324106312&adbpl=fb&adbpr=18332466311)
2016 Motor trend Car of the Year winner.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 18, 2015, 10:57:40 AM
Best check this out.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/revelation-chevy-thats-better-bmw/?sm_id=social_aumomotortrendhub_MotorTrend_20151117_55373196&adbid=10153340324106312&adbpl=fb&adbpr=18332466311 (http://www.motortrend.com/news/revelation-chevy-thats-better-bmw/?sm_id=social_aumomotortrendhub_MotorTrend_20151117_55373196&adbid=10153340324106312&adbpl=fb&adbpr=18332466311)
Why what's this? A link to someone's opinion, how factual.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 18, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
Why what's this? A link to someone's opinion, how factual.
That's the 4th or 5th review I've read that praised the new Camaro.
Is it too soon for rental companies to have any of these?
Whoa, to say the Camaro cleaned up at M/T's Car of the Year award is an understatement in the extreme...
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 18, 2015, 10:57:40 AM
Best check this out.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/revelation-chevy-thats-better-bmw/?sm_id=social_aumomotortrendhub_MotorTrend_20151117_55373196&adbid=10153340324106312&adbpl=fb&adbpr=18332466311 (http://www.motortrend.com/news/revelation-chevy-thats-better-bmw/?sm_id=social_aumomotortrendhub_MotorTrend_20151117_55373196&adbid=10153340324106312&adbpl=fb&adbpr=18332466311)
lol, it's FBC. There's so much going on there it's hard to address - but in short, he can't help but hate the Camaro, he has to in fact.
The fact that the Camaro still has such a little amount of glass makes me not take it seriously. Just look at that pic of the Camaro and BMW side profiles. Jesus.
Chopped tops have been cool for 60+ years.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 18, 2015, 12:36:04 PM
lol, it's FBC. There's so much going on there it's hard to address - but in short, he can't help but hate the Camaro, he has to in fact.
Other than the way it looks, and it's curb weight, I really don't have any other issues with this car. You seem to think that I'm some sort of short sighted narrow visioned car fan(like yourself). Nothing could be further.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 18, 2015, 02:13:30 PM
Other than the way it looks, and it's curb weight, I really don't have any other issues with this car. You seem to think that I'm some sort of short sighted narrow visioned car fan(like yourself). Nothing could be further.
Curb weight dropped 300+ pounds with the new platform... it's now lighter than the Mustang. That being said, driving my brother's 2010 SS made me hate the Camaro. I'm impressed with this new one, but I'd never buy one.
Other than the styling and the lack of glass, it sounds like a helluva car.
Quote from: thecarnut on November 18, 2015, 01:19:49 PM
The fact that the Camaro still has such a little amount of glass makes me not take it seriously. Just look at that pic of the Camaro and BMW side profiles. Jesus.
So what exactly are you guys doing in your cars that this is such a problem?
I hear the next gen camaro is just going to have a I pad mounted in front of the driver with a camera on the front of the car. No glass whatsoever.
Going to look sweeeeeet.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 18, 2015, 03:34:27 PM
Curb weight dropped 300+ pounds with the new platform... it's now lighter than the Mustang. That being said, driving my brother's 2010 SS made me hate the Camaro. I'm impressed with this new one, but I'd never buy one.
I don't see a Curb weight listed on GM's site for the 2016, just TBD under that column on the spec sheet.
If it's over 3500 it's too much IMO. Ideally i'd prefer it around 3400(both the mustang and the camaro).
Quote from: GoCougs on November 18, 2015, 04:54:20 PM
So what exactly are you guys doing in your cars that this is such a problem?
Driving on roads with traffic lights mounted overhead. Driving in parking lots with low-lying obstacles, like islands with curbs. Even backing out of a parking space seems like it would require a small leap of faith since you can't see a damned thing out the back or out the rear quarters. And autocross, where you have to negotiate a course around low-lying obstacles (traffic cones) without hitting them.
Quote from: MX793 on November 18, 2015, 05:10:08 PM
Driving on roads with traffic lights mounted overhead. Driving in parking lots with low-lying obstacles, like islands with curbs. Even backing out of a parking space seems like it would require a small leap of faith since you can't see a damned thing out the back or out the rear quarters. And autocross, where you have to negotiate a course around low-lying obstacles (traffic cones) without hitting them.
Sounds perfectly reasonable, hence why GM fails to grasp such a concept.
One thing that the camaro did do, was make it possible for someone, somewhere, who drives a lotus esprit to make the comment that visibility is "better than some newer cars".
Who'd have ever thought.
The 2010 Camaro is the worst car I've eve driven for visibility. It's not even something you're aware of in most cars, but you do notice right away in this car. I imagine the new one is no better.
Quote from: Rockraven on November 18, 2015, 05:16:47 PM
The 2010 Camaro is the worst car I've eve driven for visibility. It's not even something you're aware of in most cars, but you do notice right away in this car. I imagine the new one is no better.
Just shutup and spend 40K on a car that you can't see out of.
God damn anti GM trolls. What the hell do you want, visibility. It's a god damn car, why do you need to see where you are going. Absolutely ridiculous, damn kids.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 18, 2015, 05:09:31 PM
I don't see a Curb weight listed on GM's site for the 2016, just TBD under that column on the spec sheet.
If it's over 3500 it's too much IMO. Ideally i'd prefer it around 3400(both the mustang and the camaro).
The V6 is 3400lbs
Quote from: GoCougs on November 18, 2015, 04:54:20 PM
So what exactly are you guys doing in your cars that this is such a problem?
Driving.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 18, 2015, 10:29:18 PM
The V6 is 3400lbs
When someone says camaro, they are talking about the V8 car. Atleast on an enthusiast site, what does the V8 weigh?
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 19, 2015, 10:24:16 AM
When someone says camaro, they are talking about the V8 car. Atleast on an enthusiast site, what does the V8 weigh?
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on September 14, 2015, 10:11:28 PM
GM figures and weight for each model.
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/sep/0914-camaro.html (http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/sep/0914-camaro.html)
3700 lbs, doesn't sound like much of an improvement to me. Still unacceptable.
How many 4-seat, V8 powered vehicles are on the market today that weigh less than 3600 lbs? Even V8 2-seaters under 3500 lbs are pretty rare, excluding ultra expensive exotics. With rare exception, cars in all segments are getting heavier.
Doesn't make it right or acceptable.
There are plenty of lighter options out there, albeit with less HP.
I guess it just comes down to how much you actually care about driving and adhering to ones convictions.
That's such a stupid comment. Cars are heavy today, and despite their weight gain, they handle and drive better than ever before.
3700 lbs is right there with the Mustang. The weight loss wasn't that dramatic.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 19, 2015, 08:01:29 PM
That's such a stupid comment. Cars are heavy today, and despite their weight gain, they handle and drive better than ever before.
You can't change physics.
Modern cars do a great job of masking it, but it still exists. Why do you think cars like the miata are lauded by the automotive press and enthusiast alike?
Lighter is always better.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 19, 2015, 08:01:29 PM
That's such a stupid comment. Cars are heavy today, and despite their weight gain, they handle and drive better than ever before.
:cheers:
FBC screed is as FBC screed does. FBC knows not of what he writes - he just strings a bunch of words together a prays it comes out on the other side making some sort of sense.
As posted previously, the Camaro V8 lost anywhere from ~175 lbs (2SS w/MagneRide) to ~250 lbs (1SS w/out MagneRide). V6 model lost ~300 lbs. That is significant weight savings.
Very few V8 coupes weigh 3,650 lbs or less, and they're all far more expensive and much smaller (i.e., sports cars not 2+2 "coupes"), such as the Corvette or Vantage V8.
The Camaro has rewritten the rules for the class and performance coupes in general; whether that's weight or most anything else that matters.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 19, 2015, 08:30:55 PM
FBC screed is as FBC screed does. FBC knows not of what he writes - he just strings a bunch of words together a prays it comes out on the other side making some sort of sense.
As posted previously, the Camaro V8 lost anywhere from ~175 lbs (2SS w/MagneRide) to ~250 lbs (1SS w/out MagneRide). V6 model lost ~300 lbs. That is significant weight savings.
Very few V8 coupes weigh 3,650 lbs or less, and they're all far more expensive and much smaller (i.e., sports cars not 2+2 "coupes"), such as the Corvette or Vantage V8.
The Camaro has rewritten the rules for the class and performance coupes in general; whether that's weight or most anything else that matters.
Lot of math in there, better have your lawyer sign off on all that.
I'd go with a "Blue Velvet Metallic" 1SS w/6MT, MagneRide, dual mode exhaust and gray wheels. The only thing I'm a bit irked about not getting by not going with the 2SS is heated front seats, but I really don't like leather seats.
(http://s14.postimg.org/nb9cc0pip/camaross.png)
So do it Cougs
I want to, I really do. I might have some life changes coming up (working out of town for a while) that would make it not a good idea to do for a while.
Can't be worse than the g
Quote from: GoCougs on November 18, 2015, 04:54:20 PM
So what exactly are you guys doing in your cars that this is such a problem?
Driving them? :huh:
Regarding the 340i vs the Camaro..... yea, if they were talking the M4, or more importantly the M2, they might have a point.
As for the weight of modern cars, BS. For starters, Camaro and Mustang are just too fucking big. M235i has a long ass complicated twin turbo intercooled I6, a bigger, inhabitable rear seat, a bigger trunk, and here's the kicker.... it's over a foot shorter than the new Camaro. I suppose part of it is pony car buyers want a big statement making high presence car, but I think it mostly comes down to completely shitty packaging. Camaro is longer and significantly wider than an E39 5 series, but has essentially no back seat and no trunk. They had a chance to do right and they didn't.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2015, 03:01:06 PM
Camaro is longer and significantly wider than an E39 5 series, but has essentially no back seat and no trunk. They had a chance to do right and they didn't.
You're comparing a Pony Car to a Hot Sedan/ Sporty Coupe. If you need a big back seat (Camaro buyers don't) and a huge trunk (once again....) you need to buy the SS Sedan and call it a day! The Pony car has ALWAYS been about styling and performance over function!
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2015, 03:01:06 PM
Regarding the 340i vs the Camaro..... yea, if they were talking the M4, or more importantly the M2, they might have a point.
As for the weight of modern cars, BS. For starters, Camaro and Mustang are just too fucking big. M235i has a long ass complicated twin turbo intercooled I6, a bigger, inhabitable rear seat, a bigger trunk, and here's the kicker.... it's over a foot shorter than the new Camaro. I suppose part of it is pony car buyers want a big statement making high presence car, but I think it mostly comes down to completely shitty packaging. Camaro is longer and significantly wider than an E39 5 series, but has essentially no back seat and no trunk. They had a chance to do right and they didn't.
Long hood and short deck are mandatory for pony cars. Not so for a German sedan/coupe.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2015, 03:01:06 PM
Regarding the 340i vs the Camaro..... yea, if they were talking the M4, or more importantly the M2, they might have a point.
As for the weight of modern cars, BS. For starters, Camaro and Mustang are just too fucking big. M235i has a long ass complicated twin turbo intercooled I6, a bigger, inhabitable rear seat, a bigger trunk, and here's the kicker.... it's over a foot shorter than the new Camaro. I suppose part of it is pony car buyers want a big statement making high presence car, but I think it mostly comes down to completely shitty packaging. Camaro is longer and significantly wider than an E39 5 series, but has essentially no back seat and no trunk. They had a chance to do right and they didn't.
2-series' trunk is smaller than a Mustang's and slightly smaller than a Camaro's. The 4 series' trunk is the same size as a Camaro's.
Why don't we consider the BMW 6-series for a moment? Bigger than the 5th gen Camaro outside, smaller than a 2 series inside (except the trunk is a little larger, same size as a Mustang's). WTF, BMW?
Pony cars, much like the 6-series coupe, are designed to be stylish, not to maximize interior space.
Quote from: MX793 on November 20, 2015, 04:32:13 PM
Pony cars, much like the 6-series coupe, are designed to be stylish, not to maximize interior space.
So what happened to the camaro then?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2015, 03:01:06 PM
Regarding the 340i vs the Camaro..... yea, if they were talking the M4, or more importantly the M2, they might have a point.
As for the weight of modern cars, BS. For starters, Camaro and Mustang are just too fucking big. M235i has a long ass complicated twin turbo intercooled I6, a bigger, inhabitable rear seat, a bigger trunk, and here's the kicker.... it's over a foot shorter than the new Camaro. I suppose part of it is pony car buyers want a big statement making high presence car, but I think it mostly comes down to completely shitty packaging. Camaro is longer and significantly wider than an E39 5 series, but has essentially no back seat and no trunk. They had a chance to do right and they didn't.
So what's this about the M235i? It looks terrible and the Camaro SS kills it in performance and power.
I think if you had more of an inkling of the size/weight/cost of other hi-po front engine/RWD 2+2 coupes (GTR, RS5, DB9, GranTurismo, Mustang GT, M4) you'd stop with all this caterwauling.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 20, 2015, 05:04:33 PM
So what's this about the M235i? It looks terrible and the Camaro SS kills it in performance and power.
I think if you had more of an inkling of the size/weight/cost of other hi-po front engine/RWD 2+2 coupes (GTR, RS5, DB9, GranTurismo, Mustang GT, M4) you'd stop with all this caterwauling.
Camaro looks pretty bad too, especially given its dimensions and proportions. And yea, 50% more HP and only ~10-20% more weight = better straight line performance.
Current M3 is smaller, lighter and roomier than the Camaro with what I'm guessing is a heavier and bigger (dimensionally) engine. Last M3 was significantly smaller and still roomier while having a much bigger (dimensionally) V8. Last M3 and current M4 coupe both have classic coupe proportions.... current Mustang has a very similar silhouette to the current 4 series. Mustang/Camaro today seem no more or less practical than a Foxbody, despite in the Camaro's case at least still having a small OHV V8. Bottom line, pony car packaging sucks. I wouldn't exactly call the Camaro's cartoonish armored truck coupe styling easy on the eyes either.
Drifting a pony car is way more fun than a BMW coupe, since you sit further back.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 20, 2015, 07:36:50 PM
Camaro looks pretty bad too, especially given its dimensions and proportions. And yea, 50% more HP and only ~10-20% more weight = better straight line performance.
Current M3 is smaller, lighter and roomier than the Camaro with what I'm guessing is a heavier and bigger (dimensionally) engine. Last M3 was significantly smaller and still roomier while having a much bigger (dimensionally) V8. Last M3 and current M4 coupe both have classic coupe proportions.... current Mustang has a very similar silhouette to the current 4 series. Mustang/Camaro today seem no more or less practical than a Foxbody, despite in the Camaro's case at least still having a small OHV V8. Bottom line, pony car packaging sucks. I wouldn't exactly call the Camaro's cartoonish armored truck coupe styling easy on the eyes either.
So why are you consistently so wrong on things so easily determined to be so - do you even Google, bro?
Firstly, the Camaro is the exact length of the e39 5 sedan. The Camaro is wider but also much shorter and of course it weighs 150 lbs less (540i).
Secondly, 10-20% more weight? Jesus, the M235i weighs 3,505 lbs vs. 3,650 lbs for the Camaro 1SS - that's ~4%. And again, it has far less power, less performance, and doesn't look very good. Also note the M235i is some 14" shorter which makes it a much heavier car, proportionately speaking.
Thirdly, the current M3 is only 2.5" shorter, less than 1" narrower but 3" taller, with a smaller engine, and less power, yet, it only weighs ~100 lbs less than a Camaro 1SS. It's easy to make the argument that both the M3 and Camaro weigh proportionately about the same.
Fourth, the last M3 weighed the same as the current Camaro 1SS. Sure, it was smaller, but remember, it had carbon fiber bits and costs almost double vs. a Camaro 1SS.
You don't understand car design nor to you understand the market at large. If and until you do, this angst is gonna eat you up.
:popcorn:
I must admit.
These new Camaros look really fucking good. They took all the fussy styling elements from the last one and smoothed it all out.
C&D ripped on the Camaro's interior. It's the only reason the Mustang only finished 2 points behind it.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 23, 2015, 12:47:55 PM
C&D ripped on the Camaro's interior. It's the only reason the Mustang only finished 2 points behind it.
For styling or cheapness?
New Mustang interior is quite nice compared to past ones. Would have hoped the Camaro followed suit.
Poorly laid out and harder to see out of than the previous car. They called it a mess and that a human barely fits inside. They also said blindspot monitoring will be made mandatory because of this car.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 20, 2015, 08:53:00 PM
So why are you consistently so wrong on things so easily determined to be so - do you even Google, bro?
Firstly, the Camaro is the exact length of the e39 5 sedan. The Camaro is wider but also much shorter and of course it weighs 150 lbs less (540i).
No, the Camaro is longer.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 20, 2015, 08:53:00 PMSecondly, 10-20% more weight? Jesus, the M235i weighs 3,505 lbs vs. 3,650 lbs for the Camaro 1SS - that's ~4%. And again, it has far less power, less performance, and doesn't look very good. Also note the M235i is some 14" shorter which makes it a much heavier car, proportionately speaking.
Heavier proportionally? Lol.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 20, 2015, 08:53:00 PMThirdly, the current M3 is only 2.5" shorter, less than 1" narrower but 3" taller, with a smaller engine, and less power, yet, it only weighs ~100 lbs less than a Camaro 1SS. It's easy to make the argument that both the M3 and Camaro weigh proportionately about the same.
Again with this proportional weight BS.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 20, 2015, 08:53:00 PMFourth, the last M3 weighed the same as the current Camaro 1SS. Sure, it was smaller, but remember, it had carbon fiber bits and costs almost double vs. a Camaro 1SS.
You don't understand car design nor to you understand the market at large. If and until you do, this angst is gonna eat you up.
No, if anyone doesn't understand car design, it is whoever did the packaging for the 2016 Camaro. It's as big as an old 5 series with an interior not much bigger than a Subaru BRZ. Both the M235i and the current and last M3 coupes are significantly roomier inside, despite being significantly smaller outside. The packaging efficiency of the Camaro is horrible.
New Camaro is like a quarter inch longer than the E39. That could just be some front splitter protrusion that makes the difference.
Again, BMW 6 series is bigger than the 5th gen Camaro on the outside yet about the same size as the Camaro on the inside.
Then the 6 series packaging sucks too
Genesis Coupe, 3/4 series coupe, Infiniti Q60 are all smaller but have bigger interiors and aside from the Q60 bigger trunks too. Cougs "argues" that the M235i is ugly.... I have never been big on the Camaro's looks and the 2016 is no different. My point is people buying these cars can't necessarily afford to just buy toys so practicality counts. And this Camaro is probably the worst of the bunch in that regard, for what seems like no reason.
Obviously, Sporty doesn't "get" pony cars.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 25, 2015, 07:29:13 AM
Then the 6 series packaging sucks too
Genesis Coupe, 3/4 series coupe, Infiniti Q60 are all smaller but have bigger interiors and aside from the Q60 bigger trunks too. Cougs "argues" that the M235i is ugly.... I have never been big on the Camaro's looks and the 2016 is no different. My point is people buying these cars can't necessarily afford to just buy toys so practicality counts. And this Camaro is probably the worst of the bunch in that regard, for what seems like no reason.
So if the packaging and practicality suck so bad why are the can't-afford-toys folks buying way more Camaros than any of those coupes, and might be buying more Camaros than all those coupes combined?
Quote from: GoCougs on November 25, 2015, 02:48:14 PM
So if the packaging and practicality suck so bad why are the can't-afford-toys folks buying way more Camaros than any of those coupes, and might be buying more Camaros than all those coupes combined?
Because the market wants image, not efficiency. Doesn't change the fact that the packaging sucks and could be better within the context of the market and purpose.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 25, 2015, 08:07:57 AM
Obviously, Sporty doesn't "get" pony cars.
Always been some of them guys around...but then, I could never understand why someone would want to take a simple little appliance and rice the shit out of it.
Z/28 vs GT350R
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtdtGgf1BF0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtdtGgf1BF0)
And the noises during the drag race at the end are unreal.
Quote from: FoMoJo on November 25, 2015, 04:45:27 PM
Always been some of them guys around...but then, I could never understand why someone would want to take a simple little appliance and rice the shit out of it.
:hesaid:
I'd sell my firstborn child for either.
Jesus Jason is fucking annoying. I miss Larry.
I just can't get over the noise that Stang makes. It's intoxicating.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 25, 2015, 10:26:37 PM
Jesus Jason is fucking annoying. I miss Larry.
Who, the fat guy? Yea he was endearing. Jason is a really poor man's store brand Chris Harris. I will take both over Carlos "The Synthetic Human" Lago. Always felt like he was forcing his laughs.
Hmmm. Here's a possible basis for the Z/28. A few years ago GM Performance developed a crate iron-block LS punched out to 454 cubes (7.4L). With carb it's 620 hp gross/~530 hp net. With EFI+DI and VVT 550-575 hp should be easy.
(http://m.chevrolet.com.wpsegment5.gm.com/content/dam/chevrolet/north-america/usa/mobilesite/en/home/performance/Engine%20Selector%20Page/lsx-454/lsx454-engine-detail-masthead.jpg)
I doubt it. These engines aren't developed for mass production use. They're developed for hot rods and racing.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 26, 2015, 06:01:45 AM
Who, the fat guy? Yea he was endearing. Jason is a really poor man's store brand Chris Harris. I will take both over Carlos "The Synthetic Human" Lago. Always felt like he was forcing his laughs.
I liked Carlos Lago.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 26, 2015, 02:22:30 PM
I doubt it. These engines aren't developed for mass production use. They're developed for hot rods and racing.
Yea, no dice.... aftermarket has been building all motor LT1/4 beaters for decades. Easy to do for a car that doesn't have to meet emissions (or a TDI model)
Uh, "possible basis" means block. The LSX454 would crush the Voodoo if it could be built for a factory car.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 29, 2015, 08:03:12 PM
Uh, "possible basis" means block. The LSX454 would crush the Voodoo if it could be built for a factory car.
If they could, they would. It's likely incapable of passing emissions regs.
Quote from: 68_427 on November 25, 2015, 10:26:37 PM
Jesus Jason is fucking annoying. I miss Larry.
Jason Cammisa tries too hard.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on November 25, 2015, 07:29:13 AM
Then the 6 series packaging sucks too
Genesis Coupe, 3/4 series coupe, Infiniti Q60 are all smaller but have bigger interiors and aside from the Q60 bigger trunks too. Cougs "argues" that the M235i is ugly.... I have never been big on the Camaro's looks and the 2016 is no different. My point is people buying these cars can't necessarily afford to just buy toys so practicality counts. And this Camaro is probably the worst of the bunch in that regard, for what seems like no reason.
The Genesis Coupe has terrible packaging. It's big and wide because it's built from a full-size sedan, but the rear seat and trunk are as tiny as a Camaro.
Gen Coupe is over half a foot shorter in length than the Camaro.
Page 180 of Jan issue of MT. Angus Mackenzie has an article titled "Revelation a Chevy that's better than a BMW" He compares the sixth Gen Camaro to the 340i. he declares the SS the all around better car while calling the 340i "Middle aged" while describing the Camaro as "reborn"!
Would be interesting to see the Mustang and Camaro pitted against the 4-series.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on November 30, 2015, 02:38:54 PM
Page 180 of Jan issue of MT. Angus Mackenzie has an article titled "Revelation a Chevy that's better than a BMW" He compares the sixth Gen Camaro to the 340i. he declares the SS the all around better car while calling the 340i "Middle aged" while describing the Camaro as "reborn"!
That's awesome. It's too bad it's so ugly and hard to see out of though. I'm glad the Camaro is this good. It just means the Mustang mid-cycle update will be that much better.
Quote from: MX793 on November 30, 2015, 02:45:35 PM
Would be interesting to see the Mustang and Camaro pitted against the 4-series.
Somebody should do a full comparo between all the two door RWD coupes on the market. There aren't that many.
Quote from: MX793 on November 30, 2015, 02:45:35 PM
Would be interesting to see the Mustang and Camaro pitted against the 4-series.
In the COY article they mentioned that the other journalist weren't comparing the Camaro to the Mustang but BMWs, Audis and AMGs instead! They also said don't be surprised to see a Porcshe thrown in! They also said it could/should have won the Best Handling Car Award also.
The Shelby GT350R is going for $40K over sticker and the Z28 is being blown out by as much as $25K under sticker.
While it may be Thanksgiving, retailers and businesses have been quietly stocking up for America's brute-force shopping day: Black Friday. Or, Black Thursday, seeing many shops open as soon as your uncle finishes the last slice of pie.
While we're sure the deals are good on consumer electronics, Jalopnik has likely found the greatest deal of them all for Black Friday: the 2015 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28.
Why? Because there are currently 60 of them listed across the U.S. with $25,000 slashed from their original $75,000 MSRPs. Talk about savings.
Chevrolet may have overestimated what some will pay for a true track machine, but that's only good news for shoppers, because for around $55,000, you're receiving a Camaro that will trump a Nissan GT-R at the track nearly any day, and put those Hellcat boys to shame.
So, forget Season's Greetings from some automakers. Slap a bow on a Z/28 and really make someone happy this holiday season.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/11/deal-alert-2015-chevrolet-camaro-z28-sees-25000-slashed-from-msrp/#ixzz3t0xeLBxT (http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/11/deal-alert-2015-chevrolet-camaro-z28-sees-25000-slashed-from-msrp/#ixzz3t0xeLBxT)
Who cares about that OLD Z28! There's a new Sheriff in town! :nono:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on November 30, 2015, 02:51:16 PM
In the COY article they mentioned that the other journalist weren't comparing the Camaro to the Mustang but BMWs, Audis and AMGs instead! They also said don't be surprised to see a Porcshe thrown in! They also said it could/should have won the Best Handling Car Award also.
Other mags said similar about the S550 when it came out (R&T, specifically). MT doesn't have a lot of love for the Mustang. I'm honestly a bit surprised they picked the GT350 over the Z/28.
Quote from: MX793 on November 30, 2015, 03:05:16 PM
Other mags said similar about the S550 when it came out (R&T, specifically). MT doesn't have a lot of love for the Mustang. I'm honestly a bit surprised they picked the GT350 over the Z/28.
Ehh, new toy vs. old. They'll probably pick the new Z/28 over the GT350R once it comes out.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2015, 03:16:09 PM
Ehh, new toy vs. old. They'll probably pick the new Z/28 over the GT350R once it comes out.
You can say it's because it's the newest kid on the block, but they chose the 1LE over the new Mustang GT PP last year and didn't even consider the S550 Mustang for their COTY. Last year, when it should have been in contention, it was left out because Ford was unable to get them a test car when they were doing their evaluation (occurred just before Ford released the 2015s) and this year they ruled it out because it lost to the 1LE in a previous comparison.
Well, the Z/28 is a seven-year-old car based on a 10-year-old chassis powered by a 10-year-old motor. And let's be honest, the GT350R's advantage in performance and drivability came down to its use of (GM's ;)) MagneRide. If the new Camaro SS and other cars like the C7 Z06, CTS-V and SS sedan are any indication, the Z/28 will quite literally be unstoppable.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on November 30, 2015, 02:38:54 PM
Page 180 of Jan issue of MT. Angus Mackenzie has an article titled "Revelation a Chevy that's better than a BMW" He compares the sixth Gen Camaro to the 340i. he declares the SS the all around better car while calling the 340i "Middle aged" while describing the Camaro as "reborn"!
No question about it - the new Camaro is a game changer for the whole of the performance coupe segment, at any price level.
Quote from: GoCougs on November 30, 2015, 04:27:19 PM
No question about it - the new Camaro is a game changer for the whole of the performance coupe segment, at any price level.
:cheers:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on November 30, 2015, 02:51:16 PM
In the COY article they mentioned that the other journalist weren't comparing the Camaro to the Mustang but BMWs, Audis and AMGs instead! They also said don't be surprised to see a Porcshe thrown in! They also said it could/should have won the Best Handling Car Award also.
From R&T's PCOTY last year, where the Mustang was named runner up to the 911 GT3:
QuoteThe result is the best ponycar in history and a real challenge to the established German performance sedans. Think of it as a bigger, brasher, bolder E92 M3 and you'll be on the right track. Should it have been PCOTY? Plenty of our staffers thought so. After all, the new GT3 is great, but how much greater is it than the old one? Put this 2015 Mustang GT on the PCOTY loop with the old model, though, and you'd see a Grand Canyon separating the two.
The more I think about it the more I could see a Z/28 not happening. The ZL1 was a success for Chevy and the Z/28 was really just a distraction. With the 650 hp LT4 and Camaro SS w/MagneRide primed and ready the ZL1 would be a proverbial slam dunk (and also virtually unbeatable).
Quote from: GoCougs on November 30, 2015, 04:40:24 PM
The more I think about it the more I could see a Z/28 not happening. The ZL1 was a success for Chevy and the Z/28 was really just a distraction. With the 650 hp LT4 and Camaro SS w/MagneRide primed and ready the ZL1 would be a proverbial slam dunk (and also virtually unbeatable).
I agree!
With Ford bringing out the G350 and its wailing NA, and how much positive press its been receiving, you can bet that GM will have a wailing NA powerplant in a new Z28 to do battle with it.
Quote from: Xer0 on November 30, 2015, 04:50:10 PM
With Ford bringing out the G350 and its wailing NA, and how much positive press its been receiving, you can bet that GM will have a wailing NA powerplant in a new Z28 to do battle with it.
Not sure they will. I would put my money on a rip-roaring ZL1 package and likely some kind of 1LE track package on the SS that will bring it to near Z/28 levels of track capability.
Quote from: MX793 on November 30, 2015, 04:54:50 PM
Not sure they will. I would put my money on a rip-roaring ZL1 package and likely some kind of 1LE track package on the SS that will bring it to near Z/28 levels of track capability.
I'm with you on a ZL1 coming and I'm thinking it'll probably be powered by the LT4 in some state of tune, and a 1LE package is surely in the works for the SS, but I still think there is room for a Z/28. Even using the current LS7 wouldn't really put it at a disadvantage against the GT350 power-wise.
I guess it really comes down to if GM is going to develop a new high performance V8 for the Corvette in the near future that the Camaro can also use.
If GM does a new Z28 it needs to have a much lower MSRP so they don't languish on dealer lots.
No, they need to price them high. Trickle them out to create high demand and them dump thousands onto lots and destroy the market. Just like they do with all their cars.
Ford knows how to sell limited model future collectables.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 30, 2015, 06:43:16 PM
No, they need to price them high. Trickle them out to create high demand and them dump thousands onto lots and destroy the market. Just like they do with all their cars.
Ford knows how to sell limited model future collectables.
Ford dealers were selling 2007 GT500s for more than $100K with ease. It was outrageous.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 30, 2015, 07:10:11 PM
Ford dealers were selling 2007 GT500s for more than $100K with ease. It was outrageous.
That's because ONLY Mustang fanbois are crazy enough to pay that kind of markup on a ponycar........
One way chevy definitely trounces ford is the stupidity of it's buyers.
I mean people payed 100k for the xlr, it was a 50k car at best.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 30, 2015, 07:43:32 PM
One way chevy definitely trounces ford is the stupidity of it's buyers.
Cause we all know all the people that purchased 5.0/4.6 Mustangs instead of LT1/LS1 Camaros were brilliant! :wanker:
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 30, 2015, 07:44:23 PM
I mean people payed 100k for the xlr, it was a 50k car at best.
And the Ford buyers that paid 38 Large for a 2004 Thunderbird were just as bad! (including my mom)
Aren't those still fetching a decent price on the used market?
I mean, they aren't SSR sought after, but I thought they were a bit collectable.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 30, 2015, 07:59:06 PM
Aren't those still fetching a decent price on the used market?
I mean, they aren't SSR sought after, but I thought they were a bit collectable.
They are. Used prices on them are ridiculous.
How is Ford having hugely marked up special Mustangs a GOOD thing? I'm a consumer, I don't want to pay 2x MSRP. I want the cheap one that still goes fast.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 30, 2015, 07:59:06 PM
Aren't those still fetching a decent price on the used market?
I mean, they aren't SSR sought after, but I thought they were a bit collectable.
The SSR is sought after? But it's junk.
Quote from: Xer0 on November 30, 2015, 06:19:41 PM
I'm with you on a ZL1 coming and I'm thinking it'll probably be powered by the LT4 in some state of tune, and a 1LE package is surely in the works for the SS, but I still think there is room for a Z/28. Even using the current LS7 wouldn't really put it at a disadvantage against the GT350 power-wise.
I guess it really comes down to if GM is going to develop a new high performance V8 for the Corvette in the near future that the Camaro can also use.
I should have asked Mark Stielow about it, I just saw him last week. Doubt he would have spilled the beans though. :lol:
ZL1 with LT4 seems like a no-brainer. A new Z/28 would be spectacular, but more development work. Will have to wait and see. I've heard rumors of a non supercharged Vette engine coming, but Corvette rumors can be pretty sketchy.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 30, 2015, 08:09:48 PM
The SSR is sought after? But it's junk.
So was the GT500.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on November 30, 2015, 08:09:48 PM
The SSR is sought after? But it's junk.
Tounge in cheek?
The SSR languished on lots and was subjected to the typical gm giveaway.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 30, 2015, 08:18:53 PM
Tounge in cheek?
The SSR languished on lots and was subjected to the typical gm giveaway.
Sorry, I'm tired
I wanna go to bed...
(https://rlholland.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/tobey-maguire-crying.jpg)
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2015, 08:06:12 PM
How is Ford having hugely marked up special Mustangs a GOOD thing? I'm a consumer, I don't want to pay 2x MSRP. I want the cheap one that still goes fast.
They gotta get the money before the GT350/350R get destroyed by the next pumped up Camaro or the Z06.....
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on November 30, 2015, 08:32:18 PM
They gotta get the money before the GT350/350R get destroyed by the next pumped up Camaro or the Z06.....
Word, and spend it on the Voodoo, since at best it's tied with the lighter/smaller/simpler ten-year-old LS7...
A ~3,600 lb Z/28 with a 550 hp LT7 and MagneRide will absolutely murder a GT350/GT350R.
It will, it's just too bad the camaro driver won't get to see it happen. Maybe someone could record it so he could watch it later.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on November 30, 2015, 08:10:05 PM
I should have asked Mark Stielow about it, I just saw him last week. Doubt he would have spilled the beans though. :lol:
ZL1 with LT4 seems like a no-brainer. A new Z/28 would be spectacular, but more development work. Will have to wait and see. I've heard rumors of a non supercharged Vette engine coming, but Corvette rumors can be pretty sketchy.
What, you mean there isn't a mid engine Vette coming out next year?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on November 30, 2015, 08:56:28 PM
It will, it's just too bad the camaro driver won't get to see it happen. Maybe someone could record it so he could watch it later.
The guy in the Miata can record it form behind! :mask:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on November 30, 2015, 09:35:03 PM
The guy in the Miata can record it form behind! :mask:
Yeah, cause they're going to pass the Miata every lap.
Quote from: SVT666 on November 30, 2015, 09:58:15 PM
Yeah, cause they're going to pass the Miata every lap.
:cheers:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on November 30, 2015, 02:38:54 PM
Page 180 of Jan issue of MT. Angus Mackenzie has an article titled "Revelation a Chevy that's better than a BMW" He compares the sixth Gen Camaro to the 340i. he declares the SS the all around better car while calling the 340i "Middle aged" while describing the Camaro as "reborn"!
It's barely even December. I want my month back!! :rage:
Quote from: SVT666 on November 30, 2015, 09:58:15 PM
Yeah, cause they're going to pass the Miata every lap.
but get worse gas mileage. And not have as fun.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on December 01, 2015, 09:40:17 AM
but get worse gas mileage. And not have as fun.
You think 500+ hp sports coupes are not as much fun as a Miata on a track? I would agree if you said they weren't as much fun on "Tail of the Dragon" where you can't get over 40 mph, but not on a track.
Quote from: SVT666 on December 01, 2015, 11:39:54 AM
You think 500+ hp sports coupes are not as much fun as a Miata on a track? I would agree if you said they weren't as much fun on "Tail of the Dragon" where you can't get over 40 mph, but not on a track.
I completely agree with you.
But I will never have time/money for track. Same for most people.
Sweet merciful Jesus... have you guys heard what the new 335 hp '16 Camaro V6 sounds like??? Almost compels me to put it on my next car list. :confused:
http://jalopnik.com/what-car-sounded-way-better-than-you-thought-it-would-1746163270 (http://jalopnik.com/what-car-sounded-way-better-than-you-thought-it-would-1746163270)
Holy shit. Not F-Type good, but that's still awesome for a V6.
I like the sound of a well sorted V6. The Jag F-Type's V6 is incredible sounding. I loved the sound of my last Mustang's V6. It would spit and crackle on engine braking with a completely stock, standard exhaust (no active exhaust trickery or optional sport exhaust like in the Camaro above).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTWrqtV6-L4&index=51&list=PLFD24984DFF0D9E76 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTWrqtV6-L4&index=51&list=PLFD24984DFF0D9E76)
Quote from: Rockraven on December 04, 2015, 10:22:19 AM
Sweet merciful Jesus... have you guys heard what the new 335 hp '16 Camaro V6 sounds like??? Almost compels me to put it on my next car list. :confused:
http://jalopnik.com/what-car-sounded-way-better-than-you-thought-it-would-1746163270 (http://jalopnik.com/what-car-sounded-way-better-than-you-thought-it-would-1746163270)
Every other "article" by Jalopnik is one of these stupid questions. At least this one provides some content - a lot of them are just a question and rely on commentors to provide answers.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 04, 2015, 11:05:33 AM
Every other "article" by Jalopnik is one of these stupid questions. At least this one provides some content - a lot of them are just a question and rely on commentors to provide answers.
WHAT CAR YOU NEVER HEARD OF DID SOMETHING YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT?
summit
I am confused. Why would the OEM install an exhaust that is different than regular stock? Won't that make it undriveable and fall off in a year?
Quote from: Rockraven on December 04, 2015, 10:22:19 AM
Sweet merciful Jesus... have you guys heard what the new 335 hp '16 Camaro V6 sounds like??? Almost compels me to put it on my next car list. :confused:
http://jalopnik.com/what-car-sounded-way-better-than-you-thought-it-would-1746163270 (http://jalopnik.com/what-car-sounded-way-better-than-you-thought-it-would-1746163270)
Yea, it's pretty good. Not outside of the realm of what's in the aftermarket but damn good for an OEM. With split true duals a VQ sounds like a 911.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 04, 2015, 11:05:33 AM
Every other "article" by Jalopnik is one of these stupid questions. At least this one provides some content - a lot of them are just a question and rely on commentors to provide answers.
I like that about Jalopnik. Later in the day, or the next day, they have the list compiled from member's input, and it's usually pretty good. Unlike say, MSN Autos, where some moron compiles a bullshit list of "Ermagerd the 10 cars you should never buy".
Quote from: Rockraven on December 04, 2015, 12:53:27 PM
I like that about Jalopnik. Later in the day, or the next day, they have the list compiled from member's input, and it's usually pretty good. Unlike say, MSN Autos, where some moron compiles a bullshit list of "Ermagerd the 10 cars you should never buy".
I never see those lists. Maybe that's my problem.
Quote from: Rockraven on December 04, 2015, 12:53:27 PM
I like that about Jalopnik. Later in the day, or the next day, they have the list compiled from member's input, and it's usually pretty good. Unlike say, MSN Autos, where some moron compiles a bullshit list of "Ermagerd the 10 cars you should never buy".
MSN Autos 2015 List of Cars You Should Ermagerd Never Buy!
1. Chevrolet Corvair. Unsafe at any speed!
2. Suzuki Samurai. Unsafe at any speed!
3. Audi 5000. Unsafe at any speed!
4. Subaru Impreza WRX. Insurance is too high!
5. Eagle Summit. !!!!
6. Mazda Miata. They'll think you're gay!
7. Any V8 Truck. Uses gas!
8. Ford Econoline Club Wagon. Fill it with nuns and it flips!
9. VW TDI. It pollutes!
10. Ford Pinto. Explodes!
.
.
.
MSN Top Ten List of Must Buy New Cars:
1. Camry!
2. Sienna!
3. Corolla!
4. Accord!
5. Chevy Spark EV. Such future! Save the earth!
6. Mazda MX-5! Fun in the sun and MPG!
7. GMC Acadia. It's not a Chevy!
8. GMC Densli. luxury!
9. Certified Preowned Camry!
10. Any Preowned Camry!
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on December 04, 2015, 01:22:06 PM
MSN Autos 2015 List of Cars You Should Ermagerd Never Buy!
1. Chevrolet Corvair. Unsafe at any speed!
2. Suzuki Samurai. Unsafe at any speed!
3. Audi 5000. Unsafe at any speed!
4. Subaru Impreza WRX. Insurance is too high!
5. Eagle Summit. !!!!
6. Mazda Miata. They'll think you're gay!
7. Any V8 Truck. Uses gas!
8. Ford Econoline Club Wagon. Fill it with nuns and it flips!
9. VW TDI. It pollutes!
10. Ford Pinto. Explodes!
.
.
.
MSN Top Ten List of Must Buy New Cars:
1. Camry!
2. Sienna!
3. Corolla!
4. Accord!
5. Chevy Spark EV. Such future! Save the earth!
6. Mazda MX-5! Fun in the sun and MPG!
7. GMC Acadia. It's not a Chevy!
8. GMC Densli. luxury!
9. Certified Preowned Camry!
10. Any Preowned Camry!
It's you! You're the MSN Autos moron!
C&D compared the character of the Camaros V6 to that of the NSXs C30.
Ford should stop pushing the Ecoboost like a $2 whore and just let us have the V6 Track pack again.
I'm gonna get crucified for this but I'd rather have a corvette with that v6 than a corvette with the ltv8. Imo the design of a corvette is very futuristic and by looking at it I imagine hearing something more high strung. More Porsche or bmw than 70s muscle car.
On the other hand I think the Camaro's design matches up well with the v8. It looks like a muscle car throwback.
I wonder if I could slide that v6 into a solstice hmmmmm
Ewwwww Solstice. Nasty.
Quote from: MrH on December 07, 2015, 09:10:38 AM
Ewwwww Solstice. Nasty.
they're polarizing for sure. I'd take one, just because of 2-seat convertible which hopefully isn't a maintenance pit.
Quote from: MrH on December 07, 2015, 09:10:38 AM
Ewwwww Solstice. Nasty.
Those curves. The only thing I didn't like we're the engines. Great steering on the n/a model, plenty of legroom, shifter felt fine to me (I know it's a sore spot in reviews) and that structure was a tank.
And those curves
I liked the Sky better than the Solstice, but thought both looked good. That Solstice coupe :wub:. There wasn't much to fault with the powertrains on the turbo versions, either. The base powertrain, especially the gear ratios, had some room for improvement.
Quote from: MX793 on December 07, 2015, 09:20:59 AM
I liked the Sky better than the Solstice, but thought both looked good. That Solstice coupe :wub:. There wasn't much to fault with the powertrains on the turbo versions, either. The base powertrain, especially the gear ratios, had some room for improvement.
I preferred the linearity of the base engine to the turbo spool and power drop off at high rpm of the turbo. But would GLADLY have taken this new V6 if the extra weight didn't muck with steering feedback.
I'd like to get one but their tops and trunk lids need a lot of maintenance/replacing. That and I dunno how I'd ever swing my Miata, an ND, a solstice, and a 2008 Mustang GT. and maybe an E46 all at the same time.
The base engine was OK, it was the gear ratios lifted straight from the Colorado (which used a completely different engine with different power characteristics) that was the biggest problem. The jump from 2nd to 3rd was too big for that engine's power curve.
The biggest problem with the Sky/Solstice was the trunk.
(http://www.carparts.com/roadtests/pontiacsolstice/Images2/TrunkTopUp.jpg)
Biggest problem was it was like 500lb more than the Miata.
biggest problem was it wasn't a Miata
What the hell is that hump? Gas tank?
Sostice was a pretty fun drift car in FM4 with the LSx. Agreed that it would be sick with this new V6 though. Pontiac Cayman.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on December 07, 2015, 09:14:35 AM
they're polarizing for sure. I'd take one, just because of 2-seat convertible which hopefully isn't a maintenance pit.
Saturn Sky was so much better looking.
The biggest problem was that crapola shifter clutch combo paired with the Ecotec 2.4
It's so stiff and bad. NC all day.
I was telling my friend the other day that I'd love for Chevy to try a Z competitor using this engine. Use the corvette platform as is, or shrink it slightly, regular mechanical dif, front brembos, standard shocks, and slightly toned down styling. $40k. Make MRC and performance exhaust as options. Have a Z51 like package that includes rear brembos, electronic dif, mrc, shorter rear gear, and some extra cooling. Keep the price ceiling below $50k.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on December 07, 2015, 09:06:24 AM
I'm gonna get crucified for this but I'd rather have a corvette with that v6 than a corvette with the ltv8. Imo the design of a corvette is very futuristic and by looking at it I imagine hearing something more high strung. More Porsche or bmw than 70s muscle car.
On the other hand I think the Camaro's design matches up well with the v8. It looks like a muscle car throwback.
I wonder if I could slide that v6 into a solstice hmmmmm
No Rich, that's a compelling thought. Base Corvette with this V6, for around 40k. Sign me up.
Is this V6 that much different from the old 3.6?
Quote from: HotRodPilot on December 07, 2015, 09:16:17 AM
Those curves. The only thing I didn't like we're the engines. Great steering on the n/a model, plenty of legroom, shifter felt fine to me (I know it's a sore spot in reviews) and that structure was a tank.
And those curves
Terrible shifter. Terrible interior. The worst folding top I've ever seen :lol:
It's Kinda like a MkII Fiero. GM downgrades their plan from world class sports car to bolting a bunch of garbage together like it's a 24 hours of Lemons car.
I love the Sky. Wish those cars would've carried on and improved under different brands.
Quote from: 280Z Turbo on December 07, 2015, 08:12:20 PM
It's Kinda like a MkII Fiero. GM downgrades their plan from world class sports car to bolting a bunch of garbage together like it's a 24 hours of Lemons car.
The car was just pinnacle GM in so many ways.
"Hydro forming?! What a great idea! Surely we can get the cost of that down!"
*proceeds to lose money on every car until the program is stopped*
Quote from: MrH on December 07, 2015, 08:51:39 PM
"Hydro forming?! What a great idea! Surely we can get the cost of that down!"
Tube or sheet hydroforming? What's wrong with hydroforming?
Quote from: CLKid on December 07, 2015, 09:02:33 PM
Tube or sheet hydroforming? What's wrong with hydroforming?
It was really expensive and the main reason they lost money on every car sold.
But they made the right choice. Focusing on an expensive production process for the exterior sheet metal. Then offsetting it with a parts bin interior and a truck drivetrain is what any good auto company would do to make a roadster.
I bet the solstice would have been better as a hyundai, atleast they would have tried to keep the model alive through a few generations.
God gm is incompetent, I'm having flashbacks.
Quote from: 68_427 on December 07, 2015, 05:03:40 PM
I was telling my friend the other day that I'd love for Chevy to try a Z competitor using this engine. Use the corvette platform as is, or shrink it slightly, regular mechanical dif, front brembos, standard shocks, and slightly toned down styling. $40k. Make MRC and performance exhaust as options. Have a Z51 like package that includes rear brembos, electronic dif, mrc, shorter rear gear, and some extra cooling. Keep the price ceiling below $50k.
Sounds interesting, but like the Z, hardly anyone would buy it. GM would be much better off spending that performance investment $$$ on the Camaro.
Or can I just has this V6 with a stick in the ATS? Or SS?
I just can't convince myself to buy a big coupe anymore. If I drive something that heavy I want rear seats and rear doors.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 07, 2015, 11:54:25 PM
Sounds interesting, but like the Z, hardly anyone would buy it. GM would be much better off spending that performance investment $$$ on the Camaro.
Yup. GM could use a Focus competitor, not another coupe.
Quote from: CLKid on December 07, 2015, 09:02:33 PM
Tube or sheet hydroforming? What's wrong with hydroforming?
They hydroformed a lot of the exterior body panels and the rails for the bottom of the chassis too. You save on tooling cost, but per piece process cost is a lot higher than a conventional stamping process. They were reportedly losing $10k/car. On a $20k car :lol:
Whoa, Sky Redlines are scarce and not cheap. I could only find 3 for sale on Autotrader, cheapest being a 2007 asking $16,500.
Quote from: Rockraven on December 08, 2015, 09:21:09 AM
Whoa, Sky Redlines are scarce and not cheap. I could only find 3 for sale on Autotrader, cheapest being a 2007 asking $16,500.
That's nuts. I could see $10K, but not $16K.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on December 08, 2015, 01:22:02 AM
Or can I just has this V6 with a stick in the ATS? Or SS?
I just can't convince myself to buy a big coupe anymore. If I drive something that heavy I want rear seats and rear doors.
This is what killed coupes in general.
Quote from: Rockraven on December 08, 2015, 09:21:09 AM
Whoa, Sky Redlines are scarce and not cheap. I could only find 3 for sale on Autotrader, cheapest being a 2007 asking $16,500.
Sounds reasonable to me. OK, the interior is crap, but for the money there's not many similar choices. I suppose an 07 Z would be a lot cheaper, but it too has a crap interior and weighs a lot more.
Quote from: MrH on December 07, 2015, 08:05:50 PM
Terrible shifter. Terrible interior. The worst folding top I've ever seen :lol:
The folding top is horrible. The worst manual roof I've ever tried out.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on December 08, 2015, 01:22:02 AM
Or can I just has this V6 with a stick in the ATS? Or SS?
I just can't convince myself to buy a big coupe anymore. If I drive something that heavy I want rear seats and rear doors.
Yea, this engine in the ATS would be sick. I did not like the ATS's 2.0T at all.
Pretty sure the 3.6 is optional in the ATS. But not with a manual.
If the ATS came with a V6 and stick and new gauges, I know what I'd be getting after Spain.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 08, 2015, 08:47:41 AM
Yup. GM could use a Focus competitor, not another coupe.
..... You mean the cruze
Just left the Chevy Dealership by my house! I was driving past as they rolled out a Yellow V6 Camaro. The first thing i noticed is the 6th Gen looks HALF the size of the 5th Gen cars on the lot! Second the rear window looks damn near Horizontal! The front is more beak like than the out going model also! Pictures don't do the changes made justice! On a side note the salesman asked me if I wanted one of the 3 Z28s he had in stock! LOL!!!
Quote from: CaminoRacer on December 08, 2015, 04:20:37 PM
Cruze SS, Cruze hatchback.
Ideally you have this new sportscar roll out with a Cruze SS. Bring back the Cheetah name, and in comes old people who may remember the original, people who want an american sports car with real sportscar styling but don't need a V8, and flat brimmed kiddos who will then walk out with a Cruze SS lease. :lol:
I Remember the LS1 powered Maro/Vette were close in horse power but this Camaro easily out gunned this C7. Seems like the C7 was down on power for some reason.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/dyno-shows-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-out-muscles-the-corvette/ (http://blog.caranddriver.com/dyno-shows-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-out-muscles-the-corvette/)
Saw my first 2016 Camaro in the wild today - a blue SS. I was thinking it'd look more generic and watered IRL versus the 5th gen but no way - it is stunning in person. I'm even more convinced that this is one of the best cars on sale today in any class and at any price.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 03, 2016, 12:00:01 AM
Saw my first 2016 Camaro in the wild today - a blue SS. I was thinking it'd look more generic and watered IRL versus the 5th gen but no way - it is stunning in person. I'm even more convinced that this is one of the best cars on sale today in any class and at any price.
I agree! It's a good looking car in person even though 99% of the motoring public will think it's a Gen 5 version....
Quote from: GoCougs on February 03, 2016, 12:00:01 AM
Saw my first 2016 Camaro in the wild today - a blue SS. I was thinking it'd look more generic and watered IRL versus the 5th gen but no way - it is stunning in person. I'm even more convinced that this is one of the best cars on sale today in any class and at any price.
That is amazing, because the base engine is a turbo four.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on February 03, 2016, 04:57:26 PM
That is amazing, because the base engine is a turbo four. SS has a LT1..........
:ohyeah:
I love turbo fours.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on February 03, 2016, 09:22:26 PM
Me too. But not in a pony Car......
I'll take one for the team. Or just call the 4 cyl trim a Beretta.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on February 03, 2016, 09:22:26 PM
Me too. But not in a pony Car......
Exactly, these things are porkers. Even a 6 will struggle.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on December 08, 2015, 01:57:48 PM
If the ATS came with a V6 and stick and new gauges, I know what I'd be getting after Spain.
It's amazing... I think I can count the # of stickshift sedans with more than 4 cylinders on one hand. BMW 3, M3, M5, Chevy SS, ATS-V.... OK, maybe there is a Panamera, what am I forgetting?
Maybe they can put whatever engine generator tech they use in Forza in these 4 banger rides. Seems like our only hope :(
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 04, 2016, 08:13:59 PM
Exactly, these things are porkers. Even a 6 will struggle.
I dont know if I would call a 14 flat in the quarter struggling.... that's almost as fast as a V6 Camry bro
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 05, 2016, 04:31:47 AM
It's amazing... I think I can count the # of stickshift sedans with more than 4 cylinders on one hand. BMW 3, M3, M5, Chevy SS, ATS-V.... OK, maybe there is a Panamera, what am I forgetting?
Maybe they can put whatever engine generator tech they use in Forza in these 4 banger rides. Seems like our only hope :(
S4 definitely and I think the XF may offer one with the V6.
But the point stands: it's a very short list.
New S4 is auto only so far.... XE and XF do not :(
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 05, 2016, 05:55:03 AM
New S4 is auto only so far.... XE and XF do not :(
Audi's website says 6MT is the standard transmission for the 2016 MY.
Quote from: MX793 on February 05, 2016, 06:07:40 AM
Audi's website says 6MT is the standard transmission for the 2016 MY.
Current one comes standard with 6MT, new model will supposedly be auto-only.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on February 05, 2016, 06:10:22 AM
Current one comes standard with 6MT, new model will supposedly be auto-only.
I'm concerned with what I can buy today. 2017 model is not out yet.
Used market is still awesome and will be even more so once I'm back in the market again.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 05, 2016, 06:51:18 AM
Used market is still awesome and will be even more so once I'm back in the market again.
The reason manuals are going away in new cars is because few bought them new. There will reach a point in the very near future when finding an MT on the used market will be an Easter egg hunt. It's already getting to be that way.
There are plenty of MT cars... just not sedans with more than 4 cylinders :(
I have my short list of next cars though.
Huh? The 2016 Camaro V6 runs ~13.5-13.7 sec in the 1/4 mile...
Who would have thought 5, 7 or 10 years ago that in MY2016 Americans (particularly the Camaro) would be the last real bastion of driving enthusiasm - N/A engines, 8,000+ rpm red lines, M/Ts, lots of V8s.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 05, 2016, 07:25:15 AM
Huh? The 2016 Camaro V6 runs ~13.5-13.7 sec in the 1/4 mile...
No
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-v-6-manual-test-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-v-6-manual-test-review)
Standing ¼-mile: 14.1 sec @ 100mph
C&D reviewed the new 340i and bitched about the automatic rev match feature on the 6MT
Had a thought. It's not for fun. It's for emissions controls :facepalm:
I'm not sure rev matching manuals would make a difference in any standardized emission or fuel economy test.
"The last real bastion of automotive enthusiasm"
is NOT!!
NOT NOT NOT
found within a 2 ton windowless slab of metal.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 05, 2016, 10:57:09 AM
"The last real bastion of automotive enthusiasm"
is NOT!!
NOT NOT NOT
found within a 2 ton windowless slab of metal.
It is in
The Official 2016 Camaro Thread!
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 05, 2016, 10:57:09 AM
"The last real bastion of automotive enthusiasm"
is NOT!!
NOT NOT NOT
found within a 2 ton windowless slab of metal.
We all know NOTHING can be considered a Sports car unless it's a Miata.......
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on February 05, 2016, 01:06:08 PM
We all know NOTHING can be considered a Sports car unless it's a Miata.......
Not true.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 05, 2016, 10:57:09 AM
"The last real bastion of automotive enthusiasm"
is NOT!!
NOT NOT NOT
found within a 2 ton windowless slab of metal.
Not 2 tons.
And I'd say the Z/28 and GT350R are easily at the top of list, driving-wise.
Maybe a list where there are unrelated criteria used to project them to the top. Otherwise I'm sure they are standard fair in the sports car world.
Your much more likely to see cars like the boxster, cayman, 911, corvette, 4c, evora, miata, frs/brz, etc at the top of most lists. Like I said, unless you illicit some "random" criteria to artificially place them higher.
"Gotta Have It" :ohyeah:
Not made by an Axis power factor :erjerbs: :neverforget:
Etc. Legit shit that matters bro. Driving experience = how much it makes you tighten your trousers
Horsepower
Exhaust note
1/4 mile time
Cornering grip/g force
Lap times
Styling
Stickshift
:huh:
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 05, 2016, 05:05:04 PM
Horsepower
Exhaust note
1/4 mile time
Cornering grip/g force
Lap times
Styling
Stickshift
:huh:
Don't forget the feels.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 05, 2016, 07:33:38 AM
No
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-v-6-manual-test-review (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-chevrolet-camaro-v-6-manual-test-review)
Standing ¼-mile: 14.1 sec @ 100mph
Not quite ;) and not only because N/A cars of similar power/weight ratio (like the G37/Q50) run 13.5 - 13.8s 1/4 mile times.
Motor Trend V6 8AT: 13.8 @ 103 (http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-chevrolet-camaro-rs-v-6-first-test-review/)
Edmunds/Chevy official V6 8AT: 13.5 @ 103 (http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/camaro/2016/road-test/)
Quote from: GoCougs on February 05, 2016, 08:48:47 PM
Not quite ;) and not only because N/A cars of similar power/weight ratio (like the G37/Q50) run 13.5 - 13.8s 1/4 mile times.
Motor Trend V6 8AT: 13.8 @ 103 (http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-chevrolet-camaro-rs-v-6-first-test-review/)
Edmunds/Chevy official V6 8AT: 13.5 @ 103 (http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/camaro/2016/road-test/)
Why are you bringing up AT times in the context of a discussion about stickshifts
An auto V6 Camaro is a college girl car worthy of shame. I dont care how fast it is in the quarter mile
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 06, 2016, 12:53:28 PM
An auto V6 Camaro is a college girl car worthy of shame. I dont care how fast it is in the quarter mile
Nonsense.
I read a comparo that said the Camaro makes the Mustang feel loose and is almost too composed. They said that about the Mustang last year.
1LE package is coming.....
Cant lie, if it were my $$$ I would still go Mustang but god damn if the Mustang isn't outclassed dynamically. This isn't even the top dog
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2017-chevrolet-camaro-1le-v-6-v-8-photos-and-info-news (http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2017-chevrolet-camaro-1le-v-6-v-8-photos-and-info-news)
Ford needs to up their performance game, but I don't expect anything until the 2018 model year. Ecoboost needs more power out of the box, the GT could benefit from another 20 hp or so and a better AT than the current 6 speed. Some GT350 suspension parts (Magneride!) would help. Maybe a new Mach1 package that would split the gap between the Performance Pack and GT350?
Lol how sick would it be if they put the GT350's engine in a regular old Mustang lol.
They are getting carpet bombed on the performance front. I still think the Mustang is the better car to own and drive off of a drag strip/race track though.
The Mustang GT's shortcomings to the Camaro are more chassis/suspension than powertrain. The biggest powertrain shortcoming is Ford's 6AT vs the 8 speed in the Camaro. A bit more power from the V8 wouldn't hurt (DI and/or displacement bump to 5.2?), but it shouldn't be priority 1, IMO. The suspension tuning on the basic SS, and its handling, is comparable to or slightly better than the performance pack Mustang. That's before adding MRS and now the 1LE. There are those who may be turned off by the stiffer ride, I've come across a few who didn't get the PP on the Mustang because they thought it was too stiff. The Mustang also holds a considerable price advantage in term of price of entry. Though once you add the performance pack to bring it closer to the base SS in capability, a good portion of that advantage goes away.
The power comment does not hold for the Ecoboost, which really needs the Focus RS motor ASAP.
4<6<8.... Ecoboost should have been ground zero, GM has the right idea with powertrains.
Magnaride on the non GT350 Mustangs would be good along with better chassis tuning. But all that shit is academic to a large degree. Street cars are way more than specs.... if Magnaride enables more performance AND comfort then it should be the move (which I think it would do).
Jesus. Things just got real. At this pace both the Z28 and ZL1 will be just about incalculable.
I thought I read somewhere there would be no 1LE for the 6th gen but whatevs...
I'm OK with a turbo 4 being slotted above the 6, but it needs to be clearly superior, either by offering lower operating (fuel) costs for the same or better performance or being a clearly better performer. As it stands, the Ecoboost is/does neither.
I'd like to see gearing changes to the 1LE package again.
I think both cars are getting too expensive and too capable. The GT and SS are no longer affordable for most people and their performance levels are way beyond anything most people could ever come close to achieving even on a track. Since when is 435 hp and 1g cornering not enough?
Quote from: SVT666 on February 10, 2016, 08:40:20 AM
I think both cars are getting too expensive and too capable. The GT and SS are no longer affordable for most people and their performance levels are way beyond anything most people could ever come close to achieving even on a track. Since when is 435 hp and 1g cornering not enough?
I agree. Gonna be a lot of people crashing these cars if they try to test the limits.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 10, 2016, 07:44:13 AM
Jesus. Things just got real. At this pace both the Z28 and ZL1 will be just about incalculable.
I thought I read somewhere there would be no 1LE for the 6th gen but whatevs...
Oh my god the Z28 is going to be fucking amazing.
I still love the 5th gen Z28 and would still take one over any C7 Vette.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 10, 2016, 08:40:20 AM
I think both cars are getting too expensive and too capable. The GT and SS are no longer affordable for most people and their performance levels are way beyond anything most people could ever come close to achieving even on a track. Since when is 435 hp and 1g cornering not enough?
I personally think power on the GT is more than enough, though they'll need a little more if they want to outrun the SS. As to handling, there's more to it than outright grip. Lateral grip doesn't take into account directional transitions and composure, which is an area where the Camaro is reportedly better.
I'd be happy with a ~250hp V8 (small displacement?), and 3,300lbs. Which is why I'll save a bunch of dough and get a used 2006 GT
Quote from: HotRodPilot on February 10, 2016, 11:16:42 AM
I'd be happy with a ~250hp V8 (small displacement?), and 3,300lbs. Which is why I'll save a bunch of dough and get a used 2006 GT
You weren't happy with your '11 GT?
Quote from: Rockraven on February 10, 2016, 11:19:20 AM
You weren't happy with your '11 GT?
Too much power. I want to be able to enjoy winding it out between shifts at full throttle without hitting the speed limit in 4 seconds. IT's one reason I love the little guy I drive now. Just getting up to the speed limit, I get time to enjoy the sound and feel of winding it out. It's not over in a blink of an eye.
Personally, I'd get an '11+ V6 w/ Performance Pack over the '05-'09 GT. Similar performance, more composed chassis, better powertrain (6MT, more rev-happy, and better fuel mileage), better interior, better brakes... Missing the V8 soundtrack, but the 6 sounded darn good in its own right. I'd then upgrade the driveshaft for peace of mind and, if it bothers you, have the 112 mph limiter removed via ECU reflash.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on February 10, 2016, 11:34:16 AM
Too much power. I want to be able to enjoy winding it out between shifts at full throttle without hitting the speed limit in 4 seconds. IT's one reason I love the little guy I drive now. Just getting up to the speed limit, I get time to enjoy the sound and feel of winding it out. It's not over in a blink of an eye.
See, I totally get that, but many people don't. I'd much rather have the new V6 Camaro w/manual than the V8, and who gives a flying fuck if the auto version of any sports car is faster than the manual?
Quote from: MX793 on February 10, 2016, 11:03:37 AM
I personally think power on the GT is more than enough, though they'll need a little more if they want to outrun the SS. As to handling, there's more to it than outright grip. Lateral grip doesn't take into account directional transitions and composure, which is an area where the Camaro is reportedly better.
It's always interesting to look at how much power professional race series have. Seems like most are right around 450 HP.
Quote from: MX793 on February 10, 2016, 11:03:37 AM
I personally think power on the GT is more than enough, though they'll need a little more if they want to outrun the SS. As to handling, there's more to it than outright grip. Lateral grip doesn't take into account directional transitions and composure, which is an area where the Camaro is reportedly better.
And I guarantee that on the street, these cars can never get pushed hard enough to really notice a difference. Leave supercar performance to the Shelby GT350 and GT500 and Z28, and leave the GT and SS as everyman V8 performance cars. The Mustang and Camaro are world beaters in many ways, but they don't need to be. I like how the Fox body Stangs were a handful and they only had 225 hp. The charm of the Mustang and Camaro used to be that their chassis were overwhelmed by the engines, but now they need damn near 500 hp just to be in the chassis's sweet spot. I think they lost their focus. They were never supposed to be world beating sports cars. They were supposed to be muscle cars.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on February 10, 2016, 11:34:16 AM
Too much power. I want to be able to enjoy winding it out between shifts at full throttle without hitting the speed limit in 4 seconds. IT's one reason I love the little guy I drive now. Just getting up to the speed limit, I get time to enjoy the sound and feel of winding it out. It's not over in a blink of an eye.
I feel the same way about my G37. It makes a great sound when it's accelerating hard, but I can't do it for more than just a few seconds at a time. :\
ND Miata. Always the answer.
Quote from: MrH on February 10, 2016, 12:54:16 PM
ND Miata. Always the answer.
Yes, but ALL Miatas. I loved revving my 116 hp NA through the gears before reaching illegal speeds.
Quote from: Laconian on February 10, 2016, 12:46:07 PM
I feel the same way about my G37. It makes a great sound when it's accelerating hard, but I can't do it for more than just a few seconds at a time. :\
Part of that is also the gearing. Bazillion speed auto gear boxes are one of the main reasons that 0-60 times are decreasing like crazy.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 10, 2016, 08:40:20 AM
I think both cars are getting too expensive and too capable. The GT and SS are no longer affordable for most people and their performance levels are way beyond anything most people could ever come close to achieving even on a track. Since when is 435 hp and 1g cornering not enough?
Quote from: SVT666 on February 10, 2016, 12:09:04 PM
And I guarantee that on the street, these cars can never get pushed hard enough to really notice a difference. Leave supercar performance to the Shelby GT350 and GT500 and Z28, and leave the GT and SS as everyman V8 performance cars. The Mustang and Camaro are world beaters in many ways, but they don't need to be. I like how the Fox body Stangs were a handful and they only had 225 hp. The charm of the Mustang and Camaro used to be that their chassis were overwhelmed by the engines, but now they need damn near 500 hp just to be in the chassis's sweet spot. I think they lost their focus. They were never supposed to be world beating sports cars. They were supposed to be muscle cars.
No swipes, no swipes, but when I said this about the F-Type R you said I was nuts. I am OK with being nuts but I was on the money with the V8 F-Type. It is overkill, along with any other 400+ HP street car.
Unfortunately dudes like Cougs need to have the fastest and the baddest :erjerbs: so the prospect of a pony car with less performance can only come from the bitch slap of the govt. Next Camaro SS will have 500HP, next will prob have 550 etc etc.
If your HP number starts with a 4, I don't consider it overkill. In the 500s, yes. 600+ definitely is and is even getting to be overkill on a track (would be better to lose weight than gain HP at that point)
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 10, 2016, 01:52:11 PM
No swipes, no swipes, but when I said this about the F-Type R you said I was nuts. I am OK with being nuts but I was on the money with the V8 F-Type. It is overkill, along with any other 400+ HP street car.
Unfortunately dudes like Cougs need to have the fastest and the baddest :erjerbs: so the prospect of a pony car with less performance can only come from the bitch slap of the govt. Next Camaro SS will have 500HP, next will prob have 550 etc etc.
F-Type R weighs 4100 lbs and has AWD. It's also $112K and expected to compete with the Porsche 911.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 10, 2016, 12:09:04 PM
And I guarantee that on the street, these cars can never get pushed hard enough to really notice a difference. Leave supercar performance to the Shelby GT350 and GT500 and Z28, and leave the GT and SS as everyman V8 performance cars. The Mustang and Camaro are world beaters in many ways, but they don't need to be. I like how the Fox body Stangs were a handful and they only had 225 hp. The charm of the Mustang and Camaro used to be that their chassis were overwhelmed by the engines, but now they need damn near 500 hp just to be in the chassis's sweet spot. I think they lost their focus. They were never supposed to be world beating sports cars. They were supposed to be muscle cars.
:confused: I've owned both and I'm happy with the progress. Especially in a day and age where mainstream sedans have 250-300hp.......
Quote from: SVT666 on February 10, 2016, 03:05:28 PM
F-Type R weighs 4100 lbs and has AWD. It's also $112K and expected to compete with the Porsche 911.
It's just as over the top as these pony cars
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 10, 2016, 06:43:35 PM
It's just as over the top as these pony cars
In a segment where it is expected to compete with the 911.
Quote from: HotRodPilot on February 10, 2016, 11:34:16 AM
Too much power. I want to be able to enjoy winding it out between shifts at full throttle without hitting the speed limit in 4 seconds. IT's one reason I love the little guy I drive now. Just getting up to the speed limit, I get time to enjoy the sound and feel of winding it out. It's not over in a blink of an eye.
I get that. I really liked my A4 for that reason. It was by no means fast, but it was a manual, made turbo noises, and could get me to speed faster than most vehicles. Quick is more fun than
fast on the street. More room to play.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 10, 2016, 08:03:38 PM
In a segment where it is expected to compete with the 911.
There are cars in the 911's segment that aren't over the top to the point that they are damn near undrivable. Case in point.... the benchmark 911; V8 Vantage; AMG GT (borderline); C7 Stingray etc. Jag F-Type was damn near GT500esque, and now with AWD it weighs as much as an XJ and has a nose heavy balance. You are blinded by its gorgeous looks and exhaust note.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 11, 2016, 01:08:52 AM
I get that. I really liked my A4 for that reason. It was by no means fast, but it was a manual, made turbo noises, and could get me to speed faster than most vehicles. Quick is more fun than fast on the street. More room to play.
The ability to use 100% of a car's anything- throttle, traction, brakes- on the street is criminally underrated. Talk of "Miataness" has become cliche but 500+ HP on the street is like a 2 foot dick.
Not to mention you get used to everything.... 400, 500, 600, 700 HP.... doesn't necessarily make a car fun to drive. It can get old or even annoying
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 11, 2016, 05:33:45 AM
There are cars in the 911's segment that aren't over the top to the point that they are damn near undrivable. Case in point.... the benchmark 911; V8 Vantage; AMG GT (borderline); C7 Stingray etc. Jag F-Type was damn near GT500esque, and now with AWD it weighs as much as an XJ and has a nose heavy balance. You are blinded by its gorgeous looks and exhaust note.
How many of those cars have you driven?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 11, 2016, 05:38:01 AM
The ability to use 100% of a car's anything- throttle, traction, brakes- on the street is criminally underrated. Talk of "Miataness" has become cliche but 500+ HP on the street is like a 2 foot dick.
Not to mention you get used to everything.... 400, 500, 600, 700 HP.... doesn't necessarily make a car fun to drive. It can get old or even annoying
Just because you have 400 or 500 HP (in a well sorted car not some modified POS) doesn't mean you have to use it every time you drive to the corner store! I rarely use all of the 360 HP I have but when I do I LOVE IT!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on February 11, 2016, 07:28:12 AM
Just because you have 400 or 500 HP (in a well sorted car not some modified POS) doesn't mean you have to use it every time you drive to the corner store! I rarely use all of the 360 HP I have but when I do I LOVE IT!
Got that right! :rockon:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on February 11, 2016, 07:28:12 AM
Just because you have 400 or 500 HP (in a well sorted car not some modified POS) doesn't mean you have to use it every time you drive to the corner store! I rarely use all of the 360 HP I have but when I do I LOVE IT!
This is true, but I can kind of understand his point.
My lowly 330 HP in a ~4,000lb pig of a car goes like absolute stink when I mash the pedal, so the impact is that I rarely ever go full out (because there usually isn't enough road). Would 400 HP be nice? Yeah sure...but I would be able to use 400HP even less frequently than 330 HP. The main advantage is that the power I do use will be a little more readily available (likely lower in the RPM range). Like all things there are diminishing returns the more you get. For me 330 HP was a Huge Improvement over my prior car's 200 HP, which itself felt like a huge improvement over the prior car's 170 HP.
500 HP would be nice to have, but I don't think it would be as useful as it was going from 200 HP to 330 HP (which itself didn't feel like as much as a day-to-day upgrade from 170 HP to 200 HP).
Having a 500 hp turbo engine vs. N/A is a big difference as well. Making huge levels of lower RPM power is going to be less fun on the street. A 500 hp N/A that builds power above 4000 rpm allows you to play around a bit more.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 11, 2016, 08:41:16 AM
Having a 500 hp turbo engine vs. N/A is a big difference as well. Making huge levels of lower RPM power is going to be less fun on the street. A 500 hp N/A that builds power above 4000 rpm allows you to play around a bit more.
IDK man. On the street I feel like midrange is king. Especially with the right gearing. If you have 500HP you have to commit to to get I hope you have a lot of long, empty, cop-free roads. Otherwise it's risky and a bit reckless. On the flipside... with me on it my bike has about the same power to weight ratio as a 997 Carrera. Thing is the way the power and aero work on it, it feels like twice that below 50 MPH or so and maybe like 1/2-2/3 that above. So on surface streets it makes me giggle. From a stoplight it is a rocket. Feels like much faster than a 12 second ride. And traction from a launch is not an issue, unlike with a hi po RWD car... and I can get a pretty nasty launch without driveline fears like an AWD car. On the track, OK, it's not bad to have to wind it out as you are up there anyway. But on the street I want my HP right now.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 11, 2016, 01:01:58 PM
IDK man. On the street I feel like midrange is king. Especially with the right gearing. If you have 500HP you have to commit to to get I hope you have a lot of long, empty, cop-free roads. Otherwise it's risky and a bit reckless. On the flipside... with me on it my bike has about the same power to weight ratio as a 997 Carrera. Thing is the way the power and aero work on it, it feels like twice that below 50 MPH or so and maybe like 1/2-2/3 that above. So on surface streets it makes me giggle. From a stoplight it is a rocket. Feels like much faster than a 12 second ride. And traction from a launch is not an issue, unlike with a hi po RWD car... and I can get a pretty nasty launch without driveline fears like an AWD car. On the track, OK, it's not bad to have to wind it out as you are up there anyway. But on the street I want my HP right now.
See, but with 500 HP you're gonna say it's too much if you have it down low. Having it up high means that you can have 300 HP in normal driving and then when you're first at the stoplight, you can blast off.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 11, 2016, 01:21:44 PM
See, but with 500 HP you're gonna say it's too much if you have it down low. Having it up high means that you can have 300 HP in normal driving and then when you're first at the stoplight, you can blast off.
I agree. I like peaky powerbands when you don't HAVE to rev the shit out of it to drive it normally.
For example, my ~100 HP CBR600F4i was peaky as fuck. Started pulling only after 8k or so and pulled hard after 10k all the way up to 14k. It was super docile and easy to ride on the streets at around 3-6k, and on the highway it had enough power cruising at 6k to pass cars without downshifting, but wouldn't rocket you forward.
My ~115 HP FJ-09, on the other hand, pulls like a train from 2-3k. The midrange is crazy on that bike, and on the highway, cruising at 5-6k RPM, even a little throttle will surge you forward if you're not used to it, which is partly how I got my ticket. I wasn't paying attention to the speed and that thing picks up way faster from a roll than the F4i did.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 11, 2016, 01:21:44 PM
See, but with 500 HP you're gonna say it's too much if you have it down low. Having it up high means that you can have 300 HP in normal driving and then when you're first at the stoplight, you can blast off.
If you can get traction it's never too much. That's really the only problem with a lot of power down low. But when you are just trying to stay with traffic too much power in general can become a hindrance. And putting power up top blunts response down low and in the middle where you spend 90% of time on the road. I would rather a car be excellent where I am forced to keep the RPMs most of the time and just OK elsewhere.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 11, 2016, 05:33:45 AM
There are cars in the 911's segment that aren't over the top to the point that they are damn near undrivable. Case in point.... the benchmark 911; V8 Vantage; AMG GT (borderline); C7 Stingray etc. Jag F-Type was damn near GT500esque, and now with AWD it weighs as much as an XJ and has a nose heavy balance. You are blinded by its gorgeous looks and exhaust note.
If anything the AWD has really tamed those 550 horses and the last review I read said it was actually a really nice drive now.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 11, 2016, 02:04:26 PM
If you can get traction it's never too much. That's really the only problem with a lot of power down low. But when you are just trying to stay with traffic too much power in general can become a hindrance. And putting power up top blunts response down low and in the middle where you spend 90% of time on the road. I would rather a car be excellent where I am forced to keep the RPMs most of the time and just OK elsewhere.
A 500 HP LS3 tuned for ~500 HP at 7000 rpm redline is gonna be great at 3000 rpm and fantastic at 4-7k. :huh:
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 11, 2016, 02:04:26 PM
If you can get traction it's never too much. That's really the only problem with a lot of power down low. But when you are just trying to stay with traffic too much power in general can become a hindrance. And putting power up top blunts response down low and in the middle where you spend 90% of time on the road. I would rather a car be excellent where I am forced to keep the RPMs most of the time and just OK elsewhere.
Having good top-end power doesn't mean you have to sacrifice low and midrange power. My V6 Mustang made good power everywhere. Torque curve was pretty much flat from 2000 RPM on up to about 800 RPM short of redline and rolled off gradually enough that it didn't feel like it had fallen on its face before redline. My 5.0 makes good power everywhere, though the bottom may be a little soft when compared to the mid range and top end (torque curve isn't quite as flat as the V6). Both motors hit peak power a few hundred RPM short of redline. In contrast, my 240SX made decent low and midrange power (for its engine size) but fell off sharply about 1000 RPM short of redline. Bad enough that I think you were actually better off shifting before redline. As I recall, the power peak on that motor was about 1200 RPM before redline. My Mazda, with a similarly sized engine, felt a little softer in the bottom, similar in the midrange, and was still pulling well at rev limiter. That car hit peak power at redline.
My car starts to fall off at 4700-4800. Kind of unfortunate, because the noise it makes at 5000 rpm is orgasmic.
The only problem with too much power is putting it in cars that can't handle it, and the kissing cousin to that, using aids (AWD, aggressive SC/TC - like the E63, RS7 and M5 (yes, the new M5 is going AWD)) to make the car accessible on public roads.
Haven't driven the new Camaro, but I'd bet a princely sum that despite much more performance/power it's both a better drive and the performance is more accessible than the 5th gen Camaro; ditto for 5th gen vs. 4th gen and 4th gen vs. 3rd gen (things get murkier after than owing to the Detroit malaise whereby cars changed but they didn't necessarily get better).
There are different avenues/measures of accessibility. 6th gen SS might be able to put the power down better than the 5th gen, but I feel like you are going to have trouble finding anywhere to deploy it in either
Getting back to the Camaro, I'd just like to say that the flat black hood on the black SS1LE show car looked awful.
Quote from: MX793 on February 12, 2016, 11:55:06 AM
Getting back to the Camaro, I'd just like to say that the flat black hood on the black SS1LE show car looked awful.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of that. It'd be fine if it was an option, but not standard.
It's really nothing new, it didn't look good on the 5G 1LE in black either, but I think it looks worse on the new generation. Maybe because the hood is smaller? Works OK on the lighter/brighter colors (red, silver, white, yellow, etc), but on dark gray or black it just looks terrible.
Yeah the hood is too small and a bad shape. Luckily it's just vinyl so it can be removed
Saw a new camaro today, amazing.
The ground shook as it flew by.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on February 13, 2016, 07:53:38 PM
Saw a new camaro today, amazing.
The ground shook as it flew by.
That was me
In Head 2 Head the Camaro SS just handed the M4 it's ass. All performance metrics were essentially identical but they ripped the M4 apart when comparing the driving experience.
Fuck, its gonna be like a month before it's up on Youtube for free. They moved the first releases to Youtube Red.
I'd believe it. The Camaro is essentially an ATS-V with a small block.
Henessey has announced a 1000 hp Camaro. That won't end in a fiery crash at all.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 26, 2016, 10:09:41 AM
Henessey has announced a 1000 hp Camaro. That won't end in a fiery crash at all.
All of those aftermarket tuner engines seem to underperform in the real world. Big numbers, little usefulness.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 26, 2016, 10:24:28 AM
All of those aftermarket tuner engines seem to underperform in the real world. Big numbers, little usefulness.
Henessey's seem to always deliver in terms of outright acceleration and speed, but they are always useless on the street.
Quote from: SVT666 on February 26, 2016, 10:09:41 AM
Henessey has announced a 1000 hp Camaro. That won't end in a fiery crash at all.
Considering they probably won't touch anything outside of the powertrain, that's a safe bet.
Lol the MT head to head is really good.
Quote from: 68_427 on February 25, 2016, 11:50:08 PM
In Head 2 Head the Camaro SS just handed the M4 it's ass. All performance metrics were essentially identical but they ripped the M4 apart when comparing the driving experience.
Not surprising. The real risk IMO is the Corvette, or more specifically, not stepping above it. You'll not convince me the Corvette is the better car really. The next Z/28, outfitted even with the 10-year-old LS7, and upgraded with the newest MagneRide and bigger brakes, is going to be better in every way than a C7 Z51.
Let's not forget the camaro is on Goodyear eagle runflats and the M4 on PSS
Quote from: 68_427 on February 27, 2016, 07:27:43 AM
Let's not forget the camaro is on Goodyear eagle runflats and the M4 on PSS
I literally said "oh shit" out loud. Throw the M2 in the mix and the M4 has some challenges on its hands.
No doubt about it- 6th gen Camaro is the performance coupe king, for possibly everything south of a 911. I still don't think it's a great car to actually live with and own, but it looks like it will be laying the smacketh down for years to come. Like I said before I am downright scared to see what will happen with the ZL1 and if they make it again the Z28.
I think the Corvette has its place though. For starters you can see out of it. Trunk is bigger. Easier to park. I really doubt the Camaro's back seat is of any use (still no dimensions out). Nicer interior just as the price would dictate etc. Vette has a lot going for it IMO. But the Camaro is kickass. Now all GM has to do is bring the SS sedan over to the Alpha platform :lol:
Will the SS sedan exist after this generation? I was thinking it's a one gen pony.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 27, 2016, 10:01:52 AM
Will the SS sedan exist after this generation? I was thinking it's a one gen pony.
It's possible. I think it was supposed to be a swan song for that ancient Holden platform. Would still be nice though. Hell of a better value than the Cadillacs
An SS redo on the alpha platform wouldn't be such a great value. The whateverthefuck platform the SS is on was cheap
That was a great video. Makes me want one!
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 27, 2016, 02:26:19 PM
It's possible. I think it was supposed to be a swan song for that ancient Holden platform. Would still be nice though. Hell of a better value than the Cadillacs
And get the styling right this time...........
http://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/originals/2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-/278106/ (http://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/originals/2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-/278106/)
Quote from: HotRodPilot on February 28, 2016, 01:20:53 PM
http://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/originals/2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-/278106/ (http://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/originals/2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-/278106/)
Seems I don't have a subscription. Thanks anyways.
Us normal folk can watch it next month.
The writeup for that test is up:
http://www.motortrend.com/news/comparison-2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss/ (http://www.motortrend.com/news/comparison-2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss/)
Wow, thanks for the link.
(mentally beats horse about the camaro's poopy viz)
I still don't get how the BMW is a smaller car with a longer engine, and it still has a sizeably bigger back seat and trunk. Even a 2 series has more back seat and trunk than the Camaro. For my $$$ the M2 is still the pick of the litter, but man the Camaro is really laying the smack down on the bench racing front.
The BMWs aren't classic coupes, that's why they have roomier back seats and trunks. Pony cars have long hoods and short decks. They're not made for practicality, they're made for looking cool and going fast.
Both Camaro and Mustang prove BMW's M cars are severely overpriced for what you get. The Camaro and Mustang are absolute world beaters now. I'm not sure that's something they need to be, but they are.
Yeah. You've got an insanely complicated twin turbo straight six, and an old pooprod V8 making more power and better fuel economy. #PoopRodFoLife
That was brutal. Note the M4 has PSS and carbon brakes and the Camaro is slummin' it with crappy-ish Goodyear run flats and steel brakes.
I6 was always kinda crappy. V8 all the way.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 03, 2016, 12:40:32 PM
The BMWs aren't classic coupes, that's why they have roomier back seats and trunks. Pony cars have long hoods and short decks. They're not made for practicality, they're made for looking cool and going fast.
Someone doesn't quite grok coupe vs. two-door sedan ;). The M4 looks terrible though.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 03, 2016, 12:40:32 PM
The BMWs aren't classic coupes, that's why they have roomier back seats and trunks. Pony cars have long hoods and short decks. They're not made for practicality, they're made for looking cool and going fast.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 03, 2016, 08:33:07 PM
Someone doesn't quite grok coupe vs. two-door sedan ;).
:deadhorse"
Quote from: SVT666 on March 03, 2016, 12:49:59 PM
Both Camaro and Mustang prove BMW's M cars are severely overpriced for what you get. The Camaro and Mustang are absolute world beaters now. I'm not sure that's something they need to be, but they are.
:hesaid:
The M4 looks great and has a nice back seat, but other than that, the Camaro is every bit as good, has a better soundtrack, and costs half as much. A Mustang GT is nearly as good as the M4, and the GT350 kicks it's ass and still costs less. BMW M cars are not the shit anymore.
I agree on the M3 and up but the M2/M235i are just as good a value as any Camaro/Mustang. Better if you ever use the trunk/back seat of your cars. Not as pretty, not as fast, not as :neverforget: but fun and fast in its own right and a worthy flag bearer for the ///M badge.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 04, 2016, 07:47:20 AM
I agree on the M3 and up but the M2/M235i are just as good a value as any Camaro/Mustang. Better if you ever use the trunk/back seat of your cars. Not as pretty, not as fast, not as :neverforget: but fun and fast in its own right and a worthy flag bearer for the ///M badge.
Not as pretty, not as fast, not as fun, and still a lot more expensive than a Mustang GT and Camaro SS.
Quote from: thecarnut on March 03, 2016, 12:21:40 PM
The writeup for that test is up:
http://www.motortrend.com/news/comparison-2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss/ (http://www.motortrend.com/news/comparison-2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss/)
I just wish the Camaro looked good and/or had windows.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 04, 2016, 10:05:04 AM
Not as pretty, not as fast, not as fun, and still a lot more expensive than a Mustang GT and Camaro SS.
Pretty is in the eye of the beholder.... I don't know that I'd call the Camaro "pretty".
M2 is as fast as the Camaro with the same transmission and way faster than the Mustang GT
"Fun" is in the eye of the beholder but -300lbs + shorter wheelbase = more fun, generally speaking
Equally equipped the price is not that big of a deal. M2 is cheaper than an equally equipped M235i and loading up a Camaro SS will make for a price difference of like $4000-5000.
Its right in the mix. I think it was you yourself who said the pony cars are way too expensive and unattainable to Joe Sixpack.... I don't know if I agree but they are definitely in the price range of some high end metal, though they do deliver on value. For someone who won't accept anything but a pony car obviously nothing else will do but I don't think an M2 is out of the price range or comparison of a similarly equipped pony car
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 04, 2016, 10:22:49 AM
Pretty is in the eye of the beholder.... I don't know that I'd call the Camaro "pretty".
M2 is as fast as the Camaro with the same transmission and way faster than the Mustang GT
"Fun" is in the eye of the beholder but -300lbs + shorter wheelbase = more fun, generally speaking
Equally equipped the price is not that big of a deal. M2 is cheaper than an equally equipped M235i and loading up a Camaro SS will make for a price difference of like $4000-5000.
Its right in the mix. I think it was you yourself who said the pony cars are way too expensive and unattainable to Joe Sixpack.... I don't know if I agree but they are definitely in the price range of some high end metal, though they do deliver on value. For someone who won't accept anything but a pony car obviously nothing else will do but I don't think an M2 is out of the price range or comparison of a similarly equipped pony car
M2
starts at $53K. A Mustang GT Premium with GT Performance Pack and Recaro seats is just under $42K. A GT350 is just under $50K and throw in the Track Pack and it's just over $55K. Camaro 2SS with Performance brakes is just over $45K and with the Magnetic Ride Control is $47K. Significant price advantage for the pony cars. In a straight line performance is comparable, but I am willing to bet the Camaro and Mustang would both walk the M2 on a street course. The Mustang was just as fast as the previous M3 on a road course and the Camaro SS is as fast as the new M4. You simply will not find better performance and style than the Mustang or Camaro for the price. The M2 probably comes closest, but it's still not a match based on price alone. But yes, I still think the Mustang and Camaro are getting too expensive and I would accept less performance if they knocked $5000 off these cars.
Quote from: Raza on March 04, 2016, 10:08:55 AM
I just wish the Camaro looked good and/or had windows.
Just take a page out of the JeepBible and take the doors off. It'll give you another few inches of side visibility.
Make no mistake - the Camaro has the entire automotive world running wild like scared little school girls.
Quote from: Raza on March 04, 2016, 10:08:55 AM
I just wish the Camaro looked good and/or had windows.
:deadhorse"
Quote from: GoCougs on March 04, 2016, 04:05:37 PM
Make no mistake - the Camaro has the entire automotive world running wild like scared little school girls.
The Alpha platform is fucking awesome.
Quote from: SVT666 on March 04, 2016, 04:14:12 PM
The Alpha platform is fucking awesome.
GM's had some great chassis engineers for decades (starting with Herb Adams), I'm glad they're finally able to let loose and utilize that talent.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/there-is-a-50th-anniversary-edition-chevrolet-camaro-because-the-camaro-is-now-50-years-old/ (http://blog.caranddriver.com/there-is-a-50th-anniversary-edition-chevrolet-camaro-because-the-camaro-is-now-50-years-old/)
Quote from: SVT666 on March 04, 2016, 10:44:53 AM
M2 starts at $53K. A Mustang GT Premium with GT Performance Pack and Recaro seats is just under $42K. A GT350 is just under $50K and throw in the Track Pack and it's just over $55K. Camaro 2SS with Performance brakes is just over $45K and with the Magnetic Ride Control is $47K. Significant price advantage for the pony cars. In a straight line performance is comparable, but I am willing to bet the Camaro and Mustang would both walk the M2 on a street course. The Mustang was just as fast as the previous M3 on a road course and the Camaro SS is as fast as the new M4. You simply will not find better performance and style than the Mustang or Camaro for the price. The M2 probably comes closest, but it's still not a match based on price alone. But yes, I still think the Mustang and Camaro are getting too expensive and I would accept less performance if they knocked $5000 off these cars.
FWIW, the M2 "starts" at 53k because it comes practically fully loaded. The only options are the "executive package" (1,250, essentially some safety stuff like rear view camera, etc...) and the automatic transmission (2,900).
Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 07, 2016, 06:41:35 AM
FWIW, the M2 "starts" at 53k because it comes practically fully loaded. The only options are the "executive package" (1,250, essentially some safety stuff like rear view camera, etc...) and the automatic transmission (2,900).
Regardless, it's still substantially more expensive than the Camaro and Mustang. Both either match or outperform it.
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/16/2017-chevy-camaro-zl1-first-look-3487537/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/16/2017-chevy-camaro-zl1-first-look-3487537/) :rockon:
Quote from: Rich on February 28, 2016, 01:20:53 PM
http://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/originals/2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-/278106/ (http://www.motortrendondemand.com/detail/originals/2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss-/278106/)
Now available for free: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I)
Fantastic vid. Hope M/T keeps this up.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 31, 2016, 12:49:43 AM
Now available for free: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D87tO7VUs2I)
Fantastic vid. Hope M/T keeps this up.
It was interesting to see the differences between the cars, but man the presentation is annoying.
It sounds like the M4s big problem is the engine and steering 'feel'. Really loved the video though
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wow. Camaro demolished the M4 in everything subjective related. Didn't expect that at all.
They're right though. The worst thing going for that car is the Chevy badge and Camaro name. I think it actually looks really good now.
Meh. I am going to continue to be a prototipycal snob and say "but it's still a Camaro".
I loved the M4 I drove on track 18 months ago. And now there is a competition package that improves it a bit.
I can look at Cadillac, but this - not my style.
Yeah, being the envy of all the hillbillies around here is not very enticing :lol:
Camaro is the dream car for so much white trash around here. Tons take out crazy 7 year loans and can't pay their bills, but sure enough they have a yellow camaro with bumblebee shit all over it.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 31, 2016, 06:32:13 AM
It was interesting to see the differences between the cars, but man the presentation is annoying.
That Cammisa fella was unwatchable in the GT350 vs. Z28 vid but here that annoyance was mostly gone (I'm sure producers told him to knock it off). Just an interesting take on a comparo video. I liked it and if they keep it up they're be a big force (IMO M/T has long surpassed C&D because of their online content).
Mustang GT is still the best actual "spend your $$$ and live with every day car" in this "faster than a Countach, cheaper than a contractor's F-150 sports coupes" segment
But the Camaro is without a doubt the bench racing king right now. GT-R has priced itself out of the discussion- I would bet the 10AT ZL1 will meet it from 0-100
And yea Jason Cammisa reminds me of one of a dude who "stopped being nice and decided to be an asshole". He talks hella shit but then bitches up when Randy Pobst is warping spacetime.
Quote from: MrH on March 31, 2016, 08:28:36 AM
Wow. Camaro demolished the M4 in everything subjective related. Didn't expect that at all.
They're right though. The worst thing going for that car is the Chevy badge and Camaro name. I think it actually looks really good now.
You're right, other than the Badge and camaro name and it's looks and it's weight, it's an amazing car.
Quote from: Xer0 on March 31, 2016, 08:04:04 AM
It sounds like the M4s big problem is the engine and steering 'feel'. Really loved the video though
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And shifter, and ride, and brakes and even engine note ;). They were a bit more critical of the Camaro in the write-up - interior design, visibility, exterior styling (but I think they're crazy as the Camaro looks way better than the M4), reputation.
The thing is there is no reason why the M4 can't be twice as good. They mention the Europeans ("European government" Cammisa says ;)) are hamstrung even more so than Americans when it comes to fuel economy, which forces their hand into turbo motors, but thing is, the Camaro SS has a bit better official stats (lags a bit in M/T but has much better w/A/T), yet it is heavier, more powerful and quicker.
It's not so much the fuel economy as carbon emissions. Europe puts a lot of emphasis on kg of carbon dioxide emitted.. The two are obviously linked, as the amount of fuel burned is directly tied to CO2 emissions.
Their emission test must boil down to idling in traffic
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on March 31, 2016, 11:10:37 AM
Their emission test must boil down to idling in traffic
Or a lot of light throttle application. Europe is also less concerned with NOx than the US.
... which is why diesels became popular over there. ;)
Finally watched the M/T comparo. They're right, the M4 sounds pretty awful and the "engine sound simulator" doesn't help matters in the least.
Quote from: MX793 on March 31, 2016, 08:20:25 PM
Finally watched the M/T comparo. They're right, the M4 sounds pretty awful and the "engine sound simulator" doesn't help matters in the least.
80 Large and no leather seats? Crazy!
Man I want a '16 SS so badly
Quote from: CALL_911 on March 31, 2016, 08:27:22 PM
Man I want a '16 SS so badly
Yeah I'm digging this car too! But it's out of my price range (Self imposed 30K limit) right now! Even with my GM discount....
Camaro models across the board are priced too high for the pony car segment. Sales seem to reflect this, as the car is struggling to pick up any kind of sales volume even after 4+ months of being on the market. February sales were actually lower than last February despite a much milder winter and being an all-new model this year.
GM I'm sure had no delusions that they'd sell less 6th gen Camaros given the move upmarket. But would they be happy doing so for more total profit?
Quote from: CALL_911 on March 31, 2016, 08:27:22 PM
Man I want a '16 SS so badly
I think it is quite literally the best car of 2016.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 31, 2016, 10:35:02 PM
GM I'm sure had no delusions that they'd sell less 6th gen Camaros given the move upmarket. But would they be happy doing so for more total profit?
Mustang went upmarket too though, at least in build quality and design. As a result sales are way up, even a year in, over brand new Camaro sales
We can bench race till the cows come home but ultimately livability matters.... Camaro demands too much for performance most folks won't even get to use very often
Quote from: CALL_911 on March 31, 2016, 08:27:22 PM
Man I want a '16 SS so badly
I just wish my life could handle a two-door car. I'd be all over this in a heartbeat.
If the ATS-V was available with the LT1 that could be a contender. I'm still (nearly) convinced I need AWD but for such a potent package I might rethink that.
Cougs, just get one and an SUV for mountain bike duty.
I definitely need 4 doors for daily duty though.
Quote from: GoCougs on April 01, 2016, 03:24:59 PM
I definitely need 4 doors for daily duty though.
Since when does a single, semi-retired guy with no kids need four doors for daily duty?
I think the next SS will be on the Alpha platform. If not, it SHOULD be.
Quote from: BimmerM3 on April 01, 2016, 03:48:22 PM
Since when does a single, semi-retired guy with no kids need four doors for daily duty?
I carry a fair amount of stuff and frequently carry people when doing my daily out-n-about.
March sales numbers are out and while the Camaro's sales numbers are starting to climb, they are nowhere near the 6g Mustang. Mustang outsold Camaro and Challenger combined (nearly 2x Camaro).
(http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=69343&stc=1&d=1459579011)
S550 Mustang hit dealerships in November 2014. Note the huge surge in sales at that time. Camaro 6 hit dealers in November 2015. Sales are pretty much flat with a early spring increase in March akin to what the Challenger is seeing. It's obviously a great driving and performing car, and better than the outgoing, and very popular, 5th generation in pretty much every respect, but it's not resonating with consumers. Nearest I can figure is it's the price. It's priced itself too high for the blue collar folks who were buying them and doesn't have the brand name allure to sway the folks buying BMW M, Merc AMG, and Audi S/RS cars.
Quote from: MX793 on April 02, 2016, 08:55:49 AMIt's priced itself too high for the blue collar folks who were buying them and doesn't have the brand name allure to sway the folks buying BMW M, Merc AMG, and Audi S/RS cars.
A familiar story :banghead:
But it will sweep the comparos!
Camry outsells the 3-series and A4 combined!
Quote from: MX793 on April 02, 2016, 08:55:49 AM
Camaro 6 hit dealers in November 2015. Sales are pretty much flat with a early spring increase in March akin to what the Challenger is seeing. It's obviously a great driving and performing car, and better than the outgoing, and very popular, 5th generation in pretty much every respect, but it's not resonating with consumers. Nearest I can figure is it's the price. It's priced itself too high for the blue collar folks who were buying them and doesn't have the brand name allure to sway the folks buying BMW M, Merc AMG, and Audi S/RS cars.
The starting price of the Camaro is between the Malibu and Impala, that does not seem that high.
Quote from: Galaxy on April 02, 2016, 01:35:34 PM
The starting price of the Camaro is between the Malibu and Impala, that does not seem that high.
Camaro is thousands more than a comparable Mustang, especially the V8 models.
Mustang Pricing (incl destination):
Base V6: $24.1K
Base Ecoboost: $25.6K
Premium Ecoboost: $29.6K
Base V8: $32.4K
Premium V8: $36.4K
Camaro Pricing (incl destination)
Base 1LT 2.0T: $26.7K
Base 1LT V6: $28.2K
Premium 2LT 2.0T: $30.8K
Premium 2LT V6: $32.3K
Base 1SS V8: $37.3K
Premium 2SS V8: $42.3K
As I had stated some time ago I did not expect the 6th gen to sell as well as the 5th gen, and that is even before knowing the 6th gen would be further upmarket of the Mustang than even the 5th gen was. The unique situation (at least WRT Mustangs and Camaros) for MY2010 was the S197 had been on sale for six years, and was very popular, but that also means that by that point is was pretty stale, esp. not having been updated in either looks or performance. Then along comes the Camaro, to pretty everyone's surprise, looking exactly like the concept car, with hugely more capable performance in either V6 or V8 form, and then proceeded to outsell the Mustang for five years straight. The 6th gen Camaro doesn't look nearly as striking as the 5th gen, at least relatively speaking, and add to that the big move upmarket, it was only bound to sell less. Ford has also been hitting fleet sales hugely - about double the rate of GM, and the Mustang has always sold more to fleets (don't know the exact numbers for Mustangs though).
All in all, my hunch is GM doesn't care too much about sales figures. 99% bet is it had no delusions about the drop in Camaro sales, and was pretty sure GM did not expect the ATS-V, CTS-V, CTS-Vsport, Z06, ZL1, Z28, etc., to be top/big sellers, either. Market share counts for a lot, sure, but at the end of the day the name of the game is the long term play in branding and strategy. GM has a huge thing going with its performance cars, esp. leveraging platforms and power trains - something that eludes both Ford and Chrysler. Sure, none of GM's cars are best sellers but they all are world class if not best in class. Mary Barra knows what she is doing, and I'm a big fan.
U would think having the best performing cars in the performance car class = dominating that class though
GM still has a lot to learn with regards to making their performance cars livable. Bizarre as their mainstreamers have become pretty good in that regard- someone in the company "gets it". We are in an era where a pony car has to be as livable as a compact to really sell.... a baseline of performance is important, but somewhat secondary.
Truthfully if the next SS is reasonably priced, doesn't look like a Malibu and is built on the Alpha platform I see it taking a huge bite out of sales from the Camaro SS and an appreciable bite out of the ATS-V.
"GM still has a lot to learn..."
That pretty much sums up the last 50 years, hopefully the next 50 will be better.
No matter how good of a car GM makes the haters are gonna hate.....
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on April 11, 2016, 11:48:37 AM
No matter how good of a car GM makes the haters are gonna hate.....
Nah...car guys know car guys aren't haters...even if they are MOPAR or Fast Ford fans...or even some of those import fanboys. We all know that GM makes some good stuff, it's just seldom that they put it all together in an exceptional package.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on April 09, 2016, 11:28:45 AM
We are in an era where a pony car has to be as livable as a compact to really sell....
When has a Pony Car been as livable as a Corolla/Civic/etc....
Quote from: FoMoJo on April 11, 2016, 02:44:49 PM
Nah...car guys know car guys aren't haters...even if they are MOPAR or Fast Ford fans...or even some of those import fanboys. We all know that GM makes some good stuff, it's just seldom that they put it all together in an exceptional package.
The Camaro/Corvette/SS/V Series Caddys are perfectly fine aside from the price (my budget) of V8 powered Camaros. Sure there's gonna be a quirk or too but that with ANY car. Challenger is too heavy, Mustang has a Line Lock that VOIDS your warranty if you use it, Camaro is hard to see out of, etc......
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on April 11, 2016, 10:32:52 PM
Camaro is hard to see out of, etc......
And hard to look at! (https://what.thedailywtf.com/uploads/default/16000/729631ade1293d53.gif)
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on April 11, 2016, 10:28:55 PM
When has a Pony Car been as livable as a Corolla/Civic/etc....
The Mustang has been decent since the SN95 and the Challenger is def livable. The Camaro has been behind in livability since the 3rd gen IMO
Quote from: Raza on April 12, 2016, 10:40:49 PM
And hard to look at! (https://what.thedailywtf.com/uploads/default/16000/729631ade1293d53.gif)
:nyd:
Quote from: Raza on April 12, 2016, 10:40:49 PM
And hard to look at! (https://what.thedailywtf.com/uploads/default/16000/729631ade1293d53.gif)
:lol:
Chevy ain't fucking around
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XF6g7QHQ63g/VzH-oVMmD4I/AAAAAAABZyI/k2AUZ-DZ8gs4EIFeUXC9QVUfjU0g8UPjACLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-1.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hFAFJopNvQc/VzH-qLrqH8I/AAAAAAABZy8/mdnF_TQO5UIhThespGxzfsbKKGffljDSgCLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-2.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-n7CyTBt0MHY/VzH-peIdE4I/AAAAAAABZyg/DKQpjuHl-vsMLw2tMdrB9lCpdPq23gA7QCLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-3.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VyObvgf3Gz4/VzH-pWfledI/AAAAAAABZyk/ZrxOmB1ug201Nx-WipYiUNnWNXECRTy3gCLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-4.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bDAunREJfPk/VzH-pi7c5UI/AAAAAAABZyo/TvrzYFks-SwYG_b0Jb-h-itGuqpPCBcqACLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-5.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-a2aX-KlkF8U/VzH-pqNzauI/AAAAAAABZys/ou8PHnRxxj4Q017FM2_nr5iakM_CiuTmwCLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-6.jpg)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-A4Aww7-cGCY/VzH-pyeJ6MI/AAAAAAABZyw/cE6H0dNpd50Ng24O3zHP3tFmu8w1WS_7QCLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-7.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9bFISOdYj1Y/VzH-oxsRufI/AAAAAAABZyU/xO83riADLo8MOdtg_YASfgSx7m2z0EjhACLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-13.jpg)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dozQzxH3AAw/VzH-osJC-II/AAAAAAABZyQ/vrcA856uu3kf7i2mnLLDKmhLXMHwWBuMgCLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-12.jpg)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-43P6OXaLtak/VzH-o3dzBxI/AAAAAAABZyc/3Z7u7iZOt-0p7Z3lQzgpTbTumlsXp_mJQCLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-14.jpg)
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eDDMy2nl3ZU/VzH-pwCIJBI/AAAAAAABZy0/AvdujbepaxgNhZepfUlrDJC90jxAmSkpgCLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-8.jpg)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yPdzLnKPiTI/VzH-qAXtPLI/AAAAAAABZy4/WN6H7gEjq0sB8hud1X3mTs7U6sw0GUn7wCLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-9.jpg)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-s2yCBSRp9uo/VzH-osd1-BI/AAAAAAABZyM/8xAw2uCCpzQjib9MnYE84DSTk7wwN9T5QCLcB/s1600/2018-Camaro-Z28-10.jpg)
Ed Hardy Camaro?
It's hard enough to see out of the thing, but now they put Carscoop decals on the windshield? GM guys don't understand safety.
Safety is for pussies. All about them 0-xxx times
Quote from: MrH on May 11, 2016, 07:12:32 AM
It's hard enough to see out of the thing, but now they put Carscoop decals on the windshield? GM guys don't understand safety.
I just wanna know how they put them on the wheels. Must be those special anti-spinner wheels.
Quote from: MrH on May 11, 2016, 07:12:32 AM
It's hard enough to see out of the thing, but now they put Carscoop decals on the windshield? GM guys don't understand safety.
This sticker is dangerous and inconvenient, but I do love carscoop.
All the guys that over paid for GT350 Rustangs just shit their pants..
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on May 11, 2016, 07:38:03 PM
All the guys that over paid for GT350 Rustangs just shit their pants..
Until GM reveals that, like the last one, the new Z28 will sticker for $70K+.
2017 Z/28 prototype crashes at the 'Ring (process starts at 1:35): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyWNiKpcNoQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyWNiKpcNoQ)
No ABS so something wasn't right but that's neither here nor there. What is excellent news is this sure sounds like a N/A motor.
GM has said for some time they didn't upgrade the LS7 because it couldn't meet new emissions (bigger cylinders = harder to control combustion/emissions). In the street driving in the beginning this sounds like an LT1 or derivative (they have a fairly distinct tractorish sound at easy throttle owing to DI) and not an LS7. GM mustered 505 hp out of the LS7 some 11 years ago so my hope is they can muster a fair bit more than 455 hp out of the N/A LT1.
That motor sounds delicious!! What Flat Plane Crank?!?!?!!? :stirspot:
I want an LT7. A 7 liter version of the LT1 :wub:
Flat plane crank, huge DOHC heads, and still no quicker than a lowly $37k Camaro SS, at least 0-60 and through the 1/4 mile...
The Z/28, if it's priced like the GT350 (~$50k base) and not like the previous Z/28, is going to be monster.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 12, 2016, 07:39:29 PM
Flat plane crank, huge DOHC heads, and still no quicker than a lowly $37k Camaro SS, at least 0-60 and through the 1/4 mile...
The Z/28, if it's priced like the GT350 (~$50k base) and not like the previous Z/28, is going to be monster.
You got that right.....
Quote from: MrH on May 12, 2016, 07:35:27 PM
I want an LT7. A 7 liter version of the LT1 :wub:
We can hope but my bet is an LT1 with ~475-500 hp. That would still be plenty - and should get a lightened Camaro into the 11s, which is mighty damned quick (and way out in front of the GT350).
My money's on LT4. Sounds a bit like the Z06. I swear I hear a hint of SC whine in some of the shots where the car is approaching the camera.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 12, 2016, 07:39:29 PM
Flat plane crank, huge DOHC heads, and still no quicker than a lowly $37k Camaro SS, at least 0-60 and through the 1/4 mile...
The Z/28, if it's priced like the GT350 (~$50k base) and not like the previous Z/28, is going to be monster.
Car wasn't built to run 0-60 or 1/4 mile. It's geared for road racing. It also doesn't have the low end grunt of the larger LT motor. That flat plane crank and those big multi-valve heads are all about mid to top end breathing, and it came at the cost of the bottom end power since it doesn't have VVL. The 5.0 Coyote makes more low-end grunt. A regular Mustang GT will walk from a GT350 in a 30-70 top gear roll-on by ~4.5 seconds. And the GT350 has a [very] slightly shorter 6th gear.
I'd be surprised if it were the LT4, but logically makes sense, as it is the the only other hi-po V8 currently in GM's stable, and GM is in the habit of using a motors for quite a stretch at and the LT1 only just debuted in MY2014. Practically speaking, we already know a ZL1 is coming with the LT4, and a Z/28 with an LT4 just doesn't seem like much differentiation. Plus, forced induction, esp. superchargers, are notoriously fickle in legit track sessions.
I can't see Chevy debuting a new motor for the Z/28, though. That's typically reserved for the Corvette, at least in recent history.
Quote from: MX793 on May 12, 2016, 08:12:46 PM
Car wasn't built to run 0-60 or 1/4 mile. It's geared for road racing. It also doesn't have the low end grunt of the larger LT motor. That flat plane crank and those big multi-valve heads are all about mid to top end breathing, and it came at the cost of the bottom end power since it doesn't have VVL. The 5.0 Coyote makes more low-end grunt. A regular Mustang GT will walk from a GT350 in a 30-70 top gear roll-on by ~4.5 seconds. And the GT350 has a [very] slightly shorter 6th gear.
I disagree. In this day and age (DI, VVT/L, high CR, lots of gears) there is no need for such a trade off - all cars should have power across most of the rev range at most road speeds (and by and large they do - from a Camry to a Corvette to a Ferrari).
Simply look at the 5th gen Z/28 vs. GT350R track performance. Sure, the GT350R is ahead, but despite a notably better power/weight ratio, it's not ahead by a lot - it comes down to the car - things like lighter weight, newer chassis, bigger rubber and MagneRide.
IMO Ford got enamored with the idea ("flat plane crank!" and "8,250 rpm redline!") rather than the result. A Coyote with VVT/L and DI and a bit of massaging, with say, 475 hp, would be as quick or quicker in every measure, and be more tractable.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 12, 2016, 08:49:49 PM
IMO Ford got enamored with the idea ("flat plane crank!" and "8,250 rpm redline!") rather than the result. A Coyote with VVT/L and DI and a bit of massaging, with say, 475 hp, would be as quick or quicker in every measure, and be more tractable.
I agree. But there is something to say for creating a unique vehicle with personality. It makes life interesting.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 12, 2016, 08:49:49 PM
I disagree. In this day and age (DI, VVT/L, high CR, lots of gears) there is no need for such a trade off - all cars should have power across most of the rev range at most road speeds (and by and large they do - from a Camry to a Corvette to a Ferrari).
Simply look at the 5th gen Z/28 vs. GT350R track performance. Sure, the GT350R is ahead, but despite a notably better power/weight ratio, it's not ahead by a lot - it comes down to the car - things like lighter weight, newer chassis, bigger rubber and MagneRide.
IMO Ford got enamored with the idea ("flat plane crank!" and "8,250 rpm redline!") rather than the result. A Coyote with VVT/L and DI and a bit of massaging, with say, 475 hp, would be as quick or quicker in every measure, and be more tractable.
Ferrari uses VVL.
It's rare for a high specific output motor without VVL to both have a large RPM band (8000+ RPM) and a uniform torque spread from near idle to the top. BMW S54 is about the only one I can think of off the top of my head that pulls it off. Corvette and Camry have a fat spread, but their available RPM band isn't especially wide. Setting aside the realities of valve float, if you pulled the rev-limiters on those cars and let them wind out to 8000+ RPM, neither would be making very good power north of 7500 RPM (or even 7000 RPM). Both peak before their respective 6500 RPM redlines. If you extrapolate the Corvette's power curve beyond its rev limiter, it will be making about as much power at 7000 RPM as it does at 4000, about 100 hp less than peak and by 8000 RPM it would be making about the same as it does at 2000. Give it enough cam to breath at those RPMs and you'll lose something off the bottom.
I agree that they could have gotten comparable performance without going to the ultra-high rev'ing FPC motor, though I applaud them for making something unique.
I'm still scratching my head as to why none of the American automakers have ventured into VVL yet. Every other major automaker has it and uses it.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 12, 2016, 07:15:54 PM
2017 Z/28 prototype crashes at the 'Ring (process starts at 1:35): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyWNiKpcNoQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyWNiKpcNoQ)
No ABS so something wasn't right but that's neither here nor there. What is excellent news is this sure sounds like a N/A motor.
GM has said for some time they didn't upgrade the LS7 because it couldn't meet new emissions (bigger cylinders = harder to control combustion/emissions). In the street driving in the beginning this sounds like an LT1 or derivative (they have a fairly distinct tractorish sound at easy throttle owing to DI) and not an LS7. GM mustered 505 hp out of the LS7 some 11 years ago so my hope is they can muster a fair bit more than 455 hp out of the N/A LT1.
Interesting because the first video that was seen a couple days ago you could clearly hear a supercharger. Maybe they're testing both.
Nice to see GM back at the ring. Hopefully the camaro times are good enough to use in marketing...........*cough* C7 Z06.
Quote from: GoCougs on May 12, 2016, 07:39:29 PM
Flat plane crank, huge DOHC heads, and still no quicker than a lowly $37k Camaro SS, at least 0-60 and through the 1/4 mile...
The Z/28, if it's priced like the GT350 (~$50k base) and not like the previous Z/28, is going to be monster.
A Porsche GT3 costs more than a GT-R and is no faster. Some people actually drive cars, rather than just bench race. I imagine the Ring crash was caused by dude not being able to see the corner. Maybe they will equip the Z28 with VR goggles or screens instead of windows.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on May 12, 2016, 09:10:17 PM
I agree. But there is something to say for creating a unique vehicle with personality. It makes life interesting.
I guess, a bit. But my points are, one, if/when Chevy does come out with a hotter LT1 or an "LT7" the Z/28 will be more interesting by that definition, and two, there would probably be more room for improvement in a VVT/L/reworked Coyote than the Voodoo, as Ford tries to keep up.
Quote from: MX793 on May 12, 2016, 09:21:31 PM
Ferrari uses VVL.
It's rare for a high specific output motor without VVL to both have a large RPM band (8000+ RPM) and a uniform torque spread from near idle to the top. BMW S54 is about the only one I can think of off the top of my head that pulls it off. Corvette and Camry have a fat spread, but their available RPM band isn't especially wide. Setting aside the realities of valve float, if you pulled the rev-limiters on those cars and let them wind out to 8000+ RPM, neither would be making very good power north of 7500 RPM (or even 7000 RPM). Both peak before their respective 6500 RPM redlines. If you extrapolate the Corvette's power curve beyond its rev limiter, it will be making about as much power at 7000 RPM as it does at 4000, about 100 hp less than peak and by 8000 RPM it would be making about the same as it does at 2000. Give it enough cam to breath at those RPMs and you'll lose something off the bottom.
I agree that they could have gotten comparable performance without going to the ultra-high rev'ing FPC motor, though I applaud them for making something unique.
I'm still scratching my head as to why none of the American automakers have ventured into VVL yet. Every other major automaker has it and uses it.
The LS7 is an equivalent performing motor to the Voodoo - it's down ~20 hp but it's also smaller, lighter and has a significantly fatter/more usable/tractable power band. My ultimately point is Ford put all that work into coming even with an eleven-year-old motor.
The LS7 peaks at 6300 rpm and torque is dropping pretty rapidly by that point. Being able to rev to 7000 or 8000 or more RPM doesn't mean a motor necessarily makes good power at those RPMs. Give an LS7 the cam required to make power out to 8000 rpm (the valvetrain can reportedly handle it) and it's bottom end power production will take a hit.
It also won't be able to meet emissions regs. If Chevy could have got any more EPA compliant power out of the LS I promise you the LT would not have happened.
Not to say Ford's approach is optimal at all.... those valves and cam gear parts all add up quickly. However I think Ford has room to play. Cylinder walls on N/A motors can get thin and they are nowhere near the 100mm bore centers. But it would have been cool for them to continue to develop the Windsor block.
Quote from: MX793 on May 12, 2016, 08:12:46 PM
Car wasn't built to run 0-60 or 1/4 mile. It's geared for road racing. It also doesn't have the low end grunt of the larger LT motor. That flat plane crank and those big multi-valve heads are all about mid to top end breathing, and it came at the cost of the bottom end power since it doesn't have VVL. The 5.0 Coyote makes more low-end grunt. A regular Mustang GT will walk from a GT350 in a 30-70 top gear roll-on by ~4.5 seconds. And the GT350 has a [very] slightly shorter 6th gear.
Intake manifold and the high lift camshafts are really what are hurting low speed velocity and power. But I think better exhaust manifolds or a BMW/Infiniti like Variable Lift Camshaft could have helped.
Man that motor would have been huge with VVL and a VIM
Wouldn't hurt though. Maybe for the next Rustang
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on May 13, 2016, 12:44:50 PM
It also won't be able to meet emissions regs. If Chevy could have got any more EPA compliant power out of the LS I promise you the LT would not have happened.
Not to say Ford's approach is optimal at all.... those valves and cam gear parts all add up quickly. However I think Ford has room to play. Cylinder walls on N/A motors can get thin and they are nowhere near the 100mm bore centers. But it would have been cool for them to continue to develop the Windsor block.
The LT is just the natural progression of the LS. :huh: It got a new name for the generation, but it's just an LS with some tweaks and new tech.
Actually, GM stated that the LT1 was the most significant redesign in the ~60 year history of the Chevy small block - it only shares some basic dimensions and firing order with the LS3 - most everything else is new, esp. heads.
The LS3 had roots back to the '97 LS1. Chevy did a good job of advancing the motor but it wasn't with tech - a bit more displacement here, a bit more CR there, and that was about it, save for VVT in some applications. The LT and its tech was definitely needed to keep pace with the times.
But it's not a ground-up design. It was taking the LS and saying "what changes do we need to make to do xyz"
Yes, new ground up design. The LT1 upended the aftermarket community quite a bit since major performance upgrade items (esp. heads and cam) are not compatible between the LT1 and LSx.
I guess. I don't really want to argue semantics. I consider it a major evolution but it's still a small block Chevy. They just threw a LOT of changes at it this go-around instead of doing it bit-by-bit (which makes sense, since the past decade has seen a lot of advancement in tech)
I guess that intake manifold isn't a detriment afterall:
http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40739 (http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40739)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy74/sandeale/GT350%20Dyno%20sheet.jpg)
and
(http://s779.photobucket.com/user/sandeale/media/20160220_103303.jpg.html)
Kind of begs the question of what the purpose of the Voodoo motor is.... that's basically Voodoo power with less revs
Quote from: GoCougs on May 14, 2016, 12:43:35 PM
Yes, new ground up design. The LT1 upended the aftermarket community quite a bit since major performance upgrade items (esp. heads and cam) are not compatible between the LT1 and LSx.
An all-new head does not mean a ground-up new design. Unless you think the SOHC 4.0 Cologne V6 was a brand new motor compared to the 4.0L OHV Cologne. Or the 3V Ford 4.6Mod vs the older 2-valve version.
Likewise, one very simple and small change can make it such that cams are not backwards/forwards compatible. A simple change to the size of the cam bearings will do that. Again, doesn't make it a ground-up new design.
Guys, save for some basic dimensions every facet of the LT1 is a ground-up all new design over the LS3 - it's all different and nothing is backwards compatible.
There are VQs between which no parts are compatible.... they are still based on the same architecture. LS and LT still have the same bore spacing for example, just like all the VQs
Hmmmm. Scuttlebutt is the 580 hp LSA from the previous ZL1 could be powering the new Z/28.
That would make me sad, and really, it doesn't make sense. It's not materially cheaper to produce or lighter than the LT4. At that point I'd rather have the LS7.
I'd be shocked
Latest C&D has Camaro V6 vs Mustang EcoPoops. Camaro took the win, mostly because of the engine. Over half of the very brief overview of the Mustang delved into how much the editors disliked the engine. Poor NVH, unpleasant exhaust note, doesn't like to rev... They liked the rest of the package (ergonomics, ride/handling balance, shifter, etc). Takeaway was that if they bought the V6 Camaro, they probably wouldn't regret not getting the V8 whereas with the EB Mustang, they always would.
As I was glancing through the specs for the test cars, my jaw just about hit the floor when I saw the price for the Camaro. As-test price on the Chevy was over $38,000. The Mustang was $32K and change.
What test is this?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Xer0 on May 18, 2016, 08:10:06 PM
What test is this?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
June issue. Not online yet.
The C&D issue is about turbo vs. NA. Camaro V6 vs. Mustang Ecoboost is one of the articles, but there's are a bunch of others and they are all interesting.
Yikes, 6k difference is a lot of money.
$38k? Um, what?
38K is fine.
The Camaro is a Premium offering from a Premium Brand....
/Fanboy Test
Quote from: afty on May 18, 2016, 09:37:26 PM
The C&D issue is about turbo vs. NA. Camaro V6 vs. Mustang Ecoboost is one of the articles, but there's are a bunch of others and they are all interesting.
That explains the emphasis on the engine character. I didn't read the whole issue. Saw it on the magazine rack at the supermarket and quickly skimmed the Mustang vs Camaro piece. Didn't realize the whole issue was turbo vs NA themed.
Quote from: MX793 on May 19, 2016, 09:24:25 AM
That explains the emphasis on the engine character. I didn't read the whole issue. Saw it on the magazine rack at the supermarket and quickly skimmed the Mustang vs Camaro piece. Didn't realize the whole issue was turbo vs NA themed.
Yeah! The V8 F-150 vs. Eco F-150 article was a shocker too.....
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on May 19, 2016, 05:34:07 PM
Yeah! The V8 F-150 vs. Eco F-150 article was a shocker too.....
I think I saw that on the web (though I can't find it now). Not surprised the 3.5TT is the quicker motor. My brother has the last generation F-150 (the last year of the steel body) with that motor and it has some punch. He gets decent mileage with it, too. He gets like 20-21 on the highway. His last F-150, with the 5.4L Triton, only got like 16-17 on the highway and had a lot less grunt.
Camaro posts the worst May monthly sales since the 5th generation debuted (by ~36%), and down 40% from a year ago and down 21% from last month, which was the best month for the Gen6 to date. It was the slowest selling of the 3 pony cars last month. Car sales were down across the board this May, with Mustang dropping 24% and Challenger falling only 10% compared to last May.
Seems GM has seriously misread the segment. A fresh new model selling that far off the pace from the outgoing model after 7-8 months on the market is not a good sign.
Come onnnnn cheap V8 SS Camaros :lol:
Let's pray for some Chrysler 200 level incentives.
It's one of the best cars on sale today at any price, and 1-2 generations ahead of the class, but it's still relatively very pricey. Ford is also hitting fleet sales hard whereas GM has backed off quite a bit.
Quote from: GoCougs on June 03, 2016, 12:08:09 PM
It's one of the best cars on sale today at any price, and 1-2 generations ahead of the class, but it's still relatively very pricey. Ford is also hitting fleet sales hard whereas GM has backed off quite a bit.
:violin:
Quote from: GoCougs on June 03, 2016, 12:08:09 PM
It's one of the best cars on sale today at any price, and 1-2 generations ahead of the class, but it's still relatively very pricey. Ford is also hitting fleet sales hard whereas GM has backed off quite a bit.
Yeah! I believe it's the price!
Somehow I missed this. ~3 weeks ago M/T reported/guessed what I've been wishing/saying all along - that the new Z/28 will be outfitted with a N/A 7.0L "LT7" V8 in the ~550 hp range: http://www.motortrend.com/news/next-chevrolet-camaro-z28-will-7-0-liter-v-8/ (http://www.motortrend.com/news/next-chevrolet-camaro-z28-will-7-0-liter-v-8/)
:wub:
Unlike the previous Z/28 I just hope that like the GT350 they offer a street version in addition to the hardcore track version.
Quote from: GoCougs on June 06, 2016, 02:11:04 PM
Unlike the previous Z/28 I just hope that like the GT350 they offer a street version in addition to the hardcore track version.
Are you implying you'd pull the trigger on a street version of a Z28?
The ink is drying on the paperwork for Cougs Q50 Red Sport.... don't kid yourself :lol:
Quote from: GoCougs on June 06, 2016, 02:00:30 PM
Somehow I missed this. ~3 weeks ago M/T reported/guessed what I've been wishing/saying all along - that the new Z/28 will be outfitted with a N/A 7.0L "LT7" V8 in the ~550 hp range: http://www.motortrend.com/news/next-chevrolet-camaro-z28-will-7-0-liter-v-8/ (http://www.motortrend.com/news/next-chevrolet-camaro-z28-will-7-0-liter-v-8/)
I'll believe it when I see it. They are basing this off of the ring cars not having supercharger wine, but you know what else didn't have that wine? The Z06 in the same types of ring videos.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 06, 2016, 02:24:37 PM
The ink is drying on the paperwork for Cougs Q50 Red Sport Honda Accord V6.... don't kid yourself :lol:
Quote from: MrH on June 06, 2016, 02:16:09 PM
Are you implying you'd pull the trigger on a street version of a Z28?
No, not really, but I will dream about it though.
Quote from: 68_427 on June 06, 2016, 02:40:26 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. They are basing this off of the ring cars not having supercharger wine, but you know what else didn't have that wine? The Z06 in the same types of ring videos.
The one video that was said to be the Z/28 I sure hear no whine.
Z06 has the whine at :58 - 1:02: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEpmZZqrtnk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEpmZZqrtnk) (plus also at 1:47 - 1:52)
CTS-V has the whine at :18 - :22: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6n1zpCESac (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6n1zpCESac)
The Z06 and CTS-V sound like each other, and the Z/28 sounds quite different. Chevy has already said the ZL1 has the LT4 and there would be a lot of overlap if the Z/28 also had the LT4.
I've been building Camaros for fun on the chevy site and damn, everything I want is over 35K. Loaded V6/barebones V8/loaded V8. And the new 1LE looks great in V8 form.
Quote from: Rich on June 07, 2016, 07:05:57 AM
I've been building Camaros for fun on the chevy site and damn, everything I want is over 35K. Loaded V6/barebones V8/loaded V8. And the new 1LE looks great in V8 form.
Yup! I priced out a bare bones V8 and a Nicely equipped V8 and both are outta my price range! Even with my GM Discount!
Camaro June sales down 43% from a year ago, down to 4,969. The other 2 pony cars were also down, but by less than half as much (17-20%). Challenger yet again outsold Camaro for the month.
Quote from: MX793 on July 01, 2016, 11:04:04 AM
Camaro June sales down 43% from a year ago, down to 4,969. The other 2 pony cars were also down, but by less than half as much (17-20%). Challenger yet again outsold Camaro for the month.
Man, GM screwed this up. You can get a barebones V8 Challenger for 32 thousand.
Quote from: veeman on July 01, 2016, 11:43:38 AM
Man, GM screwed this up. You can get a barebones V8 Challenger for 32 thousand.
The hitch with that comparison is the new 5.7L Challenger is ~15 years behind in performance - at the end of the 1/4 mile the Camaro SS is ahead by almost a football field (and the new Mustang GT is ~7 years behind in performance, lagging by almost half a football field).
But you get the sound of a V8 and I think compatible performance to the 32k Camaro V6
The 1LE looks like it's right up my alley.
The 2 deciding factors would be weight(hope it's light) and price(hope it's realistic).
Quote from: GoCougs on July 01, 2016, 12:21:20 PM
The hitch with that comparison is the new 5.7L Challenger is ~15 years behind in performance - at the end of the 1/4 mile the Camaro SS is ahead by almost a football field (and the new Mustang GT is ~7 years behind in performance, lagging by almost half a football field).
And yet, despite being years ahead in performance, however that metric is actually determined, buyers are not flocking to the Camaro. Obviously, being the fastest is not the only thing that matters to a lion's share buyers in this segment.
Quote from: MX793 on July 01, 2016, 05:16:26 PM
And yet, despite being years ahead in performance, however that metric is actually determined, buyers are not flocking to the Camaro. Obviously, being the fastest is not the only thing that matters to a lion's share buyers in this segment.
That's usually been the case though: the Camaro was usually the better performer yet the Mustang was usually the better seller. The 5th gen Camaro's sales success was an anomaly as the Mustang was already 5 years old when it debuted, and let's be honest, love it or hate it, the 5th gen Camaro was striking - Corvette motor, IRS and concept car styling.
Also forgot - the Mustang has usually been cheaper, too.
Swung over to the local auto mall today and the Chevy dealer had a couple of new LT Camaros out front, along with a pair of CPO LT Gen5s. Other than the couple of Gen6s I've seen in the wild from a distance and on the move, this was my first "up close" look. Ergonomics and visibility aside, I think the Gen6 looks pretty darn good in the flesh. Better than the post-facelift Gen5. It looks a bit more taught and toned. That said, at a glance, the Gen6 looks too much like the later Gen5s. Enough so that if you told me it was just a facelift, I'd be inclined to believe it. There are a few standout differences, but all together the difference between a 2015 and 2016 Camaro, visually, is about the same as between the 2009 and 2010 Mustang (which was a facelift).
The face is obviously different, but it looks more like a facelift of the 2015 than a fresh design. The headlamps are narrower/squintier, but a similar shape to the outgoing model. Same with the upper grille. The shape/contour of the hood and the hood shutline looks very similar. The sides seem a bit more toned, like the sheetmetal was drawn a little tighter, but not drastically different. Like the car may have a bit more of a waist to it than the older model. The faux gills on the rear quarter panels are gone, but the shape of the rear haunches looks almost exactly the same. The shape of the greenhouse and door glass looks very nearly the same. Look closely and the newer car's roofline appears to start sloping down a bit sooner, but it's pretty subtle. The rear quarter windows are different in shape. Seen in isolation, it may not jump out at you, but side by side, it's a very different shape. The window opening appears to be a bit higher up than in the outgoing car and perhaps a bit smaller. Moving to the back, the tail lamp treatment is much like the headlamps: a familiar shape but made a little narrower, vertically, and canted to make them look a little more aggressive. The bumper itself is a bit more sculpted. Seen side-by-side, the horizontal portion of the rear deck is a bit shorter on the new car. There appears to be a bit less rear glass, vertically, on the new car. What's more, look past the glass and you'll note that the rear DLO is significantly more constricted because the rear speaker shelf rises up several inches above the top of the rear trunklid, resulting in a narrow slit of actual window. There looks to be a bit less rear overhang aft of the rear tires on the newer car as well.
Then we get to pricing. The silver car (shown in photos below) was a base V6 with automatic transmission and the optional active exhaust. $30.5K. A base ecoboost with the automatic is $27.8K. There was also a V6 convertible in stock (didn't get any photos) with a sticker price of $47,000 (and it wasn't fully loaded). I optioned up an EcoBoost vert on Ford's site with all the same equipment and it was only $41.2K.
(http://i66.tinypic.com/f36muf.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2i6jii1.jpg)
(http://i65.tinypic.com/j5h7iu.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2niy93t.jpg)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/j8cjki.jpg)
Quote from: veeman on July 01, 2016, 11:43:38 AM
Man, GM screwed this up. You can get a barebones V8 Challenger for 32 thousand.
Challenger is an overweight POS though. A Charger V8 for the same $$$ is a much better value
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 03, 2016, 04:15:22 PM
Challenger is an overweight POS though. A Charger V8 for the same $$$ is a much better value
Charger weighs more, costs more (~$1900 for the R/T vs the Chally), and doesn't come with a stick.
My dad didn't even realize the 2016s are a new generation. They definitely should have updated the styling more.
They look so much better. Not more stupid fake gills on the rear quarters. Everything is tighter and pulled in more.
BTW Cougs Chevy has a 20% off every model sale. So go pick up a V8 Maro or SS please.
Also a I4 or V6 Camaro are damn near as quick as the 5.7 Challenger.
Camaro isn't included in the 20% off sale :cry:
Did the windows on the new Camaro get even smaller!?
Quote from: Raza on July 04, 2016, 09:05:00 AM
Did the windows on the new Camaro get even smaller!?
Windshield and door windows appear to be the exact same size. Rear quarter windows I think got a little smaller, and are positioned high enough that the blindspot has certainly gotten larger. Rear glass is definitely smaller, and that's before taking into account the speaker shelf inside the car impinging on the aperture.
Saw a bright red SS sedan today. I really, really like that thing
I think I've seen like 1 ss sedan, not even sure of that, I'm just assuming ive seen one and forgot.
Quote from: Raza on July 04, 2016, 09:05:00 AM
Did the windows on the new Camaro get even smaller!?
I can spread my hand and touch the dashboard and ceiling at the same time. :lol:
Quote from: CALL_911 on July 04, 2016, 09:34:18 AM
Saw a bright red SS sedan today. I really, really like that thing
Unlike the Camaro those ARE included in the 20% off sale. Been trying to get Mike to buy one all weekend. 36-39k for a brand new SS is awesome.
SS sedans are legit. Just need an actual name...
$36k for a new SS is a crazy deal. If someone bulldozes the 4runner and totals it, I'll go get one
Shit. If I can find a deal on one next year I'll do it
36k sounds really expensive for a ss, is it still a decade old holden chassis?
I'd think mid to upper 30s would be better spent on a cadi if you want to keep it in the gm stable, otherwise a base 3er would blow it away in everything but power.
Quote from: MX793 on July 04, 2016, 09:14:52 AM
Windshield and door windows appear to be the exact same size. Rear quarter windows I think got a little smaller, and are positioned high enough that the blindspot has certainly gotten larger. Rear glass is definitely smaller, and that's before taking into account the speaker shelf inside the car impinging on the aperture.
So that's an overall yes. What a fucking mess. Feels like they painted themselves into a corner with their Transformers car, and they're stuck now.
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 04, 2016, 03:28:43 PM
36k sounds really expensive for a ss, is it still a decade old holden chassis?
I'd think mid to upper 30s would be better spent on a cadi if you want to keep it in the gm stable, otherwise a base 3er would blow it away in everything but power.
I wouldn't dimiss it that easily
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbLweooe3aM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbLweooe3aM)
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2015-chevrolet-ss-second-test-review/ (http://www.motortrend.com/news/2015-chevrolet-ss-second-test-review/)
QuoteIf you can find a better sedan, buy it.
I watched a few minutes of that, sounds like a fantastic car. Too bad it's wrapped in such an ambiguous package consisting of 3 decades worth of mediocre gm design elements, mashed into one.
Like I said, a lot better car for the money out there. The magazines are just drunk on the power and the stick, something the general public could give 2 shits about.
I'd take a monumental effort to get rid of all of the tacky chrome, but I think it would pretty good once it's all gone.
Bunch of unthusiasts.
Hey, I like the SS a lot. I just hate how GM slaps chrome on everything.
I just can't get over the fact that it looks like a previous gen Malibu. I'm certain its a brilliant drive, especially with Magnaride.... but for V8 + 6MT + GM sedan it's always gonna be a used CTS-V. I am a big fan of the originals, nasty creaky interiors, wheel hop issues and all.
Hm, is there a way to see where Chevy SS's are in stock?
If I could find the right color I would seriously consider this. Using Chevy's website and their "inventory search" function all I get is a message to "contact your dealer" 9and then they list the 10 closest dealers), which I assumes means none are in stock.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 05, 2016, 07:53:54 AM
Hm, is there a way to see where Chevy SS's are in stock?
If I could find the right color I would seriously consider this. Using Chevy's website and their "inventory search" function all I get is a message to "contact your dealer" 9and then they list the 10 closest dealers), which I assumes means none are in stock.
I'd just call the closest dealer and ask them.
Huh, poking around different dealer websites there is one not too far away (Cherry Hill, NJ). It is a stickshift, but is black on black. Not ideal (Blue would be top choice, gray second, maybe white as third), but not a deal breaker. Gonna look around a bit more. I am seriously considering this though. Might be the last chance I can buy a sedan that has a V8 and a stickshift. :hmm:
edit: nevermind, its an automatic.
I've always used autotrader to search for dealership inventory within a certain radius of where I live. You can search new, certified, and used from dealers only, private party only, and both.
Quote from: veeman on July 05, 2016, 01:10:32 PM
I've always used autotrader to search for dealership inventory within a certain radius of where I live. You can search new, certified, and used from dealers only, private party only, and both.
Someone on a different forum pointed to autotrader, was definitely more helpful than Chevy's website. :ohyeah:
I posted in my "Wheels" thread that I am following up on this. Spoke to a local dealer and they are going to try and work a trade with a different (not local) dealer to get an SS for me. I am going to drive my S4 to the dealership this evening to see if we can work out the $$$.
Wow, that is quite a development. The SS is one of the few true enthusiast sedans left. Snagging a new one for less than $40k is the deal of the century.
It may be the only enthusiast sedan left with 8 cylinders besides the M5. I think the Panamera is auto only now. That's kind of depressing but not really surprising... a 4 banger A6 will out accelerate/turn/brake the old V8 S6
SJ, you should get the SS in an actual holden color, I'm assuming that electric lime green is the only holden color that made it over(otherwise that neon orange would have been sweet if it made it).
Quote from: FlatBlackCaddy on July 05, 2016, 02:46:03 PM
SJ, you should get the SS in an actual holden color, I'm assuming that electric lime green is the only holden color that made it over(otherwise that neon orange would have been sweet if it made it).
The orange is coming next year. There are actually like 5 holden colors. One or two blues, a red orange, two greens, and a purple with the orange coming next year.
"Some Like It Hot Red"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/MyFemurHurts/3BD002D9-6BCD-408B-9895-FC564EB5F0E8_zpsx9phnogn.jpg)
"Perfect Blue"
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/utekineir/IMG_0003_zpsxwwc0dga.jpg)
"Slipstream Blue"
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1670/24822296480_e8e0c1ff23_b.jpg)
"Reagal Peacock Green"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v227/monsoon725/IMG_3551_zpsxj7hidz1.jpg)
"Jungle Fever Green"
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r216/TJ21685/11663899_10153100387878512_296995895_o.jpg)
"Alchemy Purple"
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20150913/a17064d15b9a3a5f0f4463297ee27c8a.jpg)
And the orange supposedly coming for next year
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/47/Holden_VF_Commodore_SSV_V8_Supercar_Test_2013.jpg/647px-Holden_VF_Commodore_SSV_V8_Supercar_Test_2013.jpg)
Coming next year? They still make these?
Out of all those colors I think I like the Perfect Blue the best, shame it wasn't available on the 2016's.
It is very similar to your S4.
Purple, Jungle Green, Slipstream Blue, Orange :wub: Those are all great.
I'm super excited for you. Sweet sweet car and rare which makes it all the better. Why do you need to have the deal done by Friday or whatever? Will the monetary terms of the deal change?
Quote from: veeman on July 06, 2016, 06:28:21 AM
I'm super excited for you. Sweet sweet car and rare which makes it all the better. Why do you need to have the deal done by Friday or whatever? Will the monetary terms of the deal change?
Yeah, the 20% off sale requires delivery to be taken by July 8th. If the price is ~10k high its a much tougher decision, and I'd probably just stick with my S4 in that case.
Slipstream blue :wub:
Is there a way to dechrome it? It's the only thing I think I'd change about it- way too much chrome and I really don't like those LEDs on the front.
There's a lot of chrome. I feel like the dechroming would be a project spanning multiple years :lol:
Actually, I think Australia sells a lot of piano black trim, but it's really expensive. I'd honestly just take it to a shop, identify everything you'd want to get power coated, and see what it would cost. I'd remove all the trim myself, bring it to a shop, then reinstall it all.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 06, 2016, 06:35:47 AM
Yeah, the 20% off sale requires delivery to be taken by July 8th. If the price is ~10k high its a much tougher decision, and I'd probably just stick with my S4 in that case.
Ahhh, now I understand your rush.
BTW, I think the chrome looks fine :lol:
Quote from: MrH on July 06, 2016, 07:05:30 AM
There's a lot of chrome. I feel like the dechroming would be a project spanning multiple years :lol:
Actually, I think Australia sells a lot of piano black trim, but it's really expensive. I'd honestly just take it to a shop, identify everything you'd want to get power coated, and see what it would cost. I'd remove all the trim myself, bring it to a shop, then reinstall it all.
Yes, I'd power coat it, power coat the shit out of it.
Really though, none of this "chrome" is actually real chrome on real metal. It's probably vacuum metalized plastic chrome.
SJ, if you really didn't like the chrome then I'd use some plastidip(TEMPORARILY, to judge effect, otherwise it's garbage) to matte black out what you would want to change. If it looked good, then actually removing the pieces, prepping them and applying a exterior black trim product(SEM makes a nice OEM look trim black, good product) would do the trick.
Probably wouldn't be all that hard, be a saturday project.
Yeah, I don't know what's plastic and what's metal on it.
Some guy replaced all the interior trim with black piano trim from Australia. Looked great.
I LOVE the metal interior trim. There is a such thing as too much black. As for the outside take it to a place and just have it wrapped black, or brushed aluminum, or black chrome etc. That way it's reversible.
Yea with the deals they are offering on these things getting a wrap is not a bad idea at all
Or just leave it be. :huh: having seen a few in person it's not a glaring issue at all
IMHO the car looks much better (re: more aggressive) in person. IIRC some of the chrome was removed in either 2015 or 2016 as well. I doubt I will change anything cosmetic in the near term. I will need to spend some money to get winter wheels/tires so that is ~2k in expenses coming in a few months anyway.
I wonder if steelies will fit. These look like Caprices too. Cheapo wheels and you will be able to part highways like Moses did the Red Sea :lol:
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 06, 2016, 11:41:22 AM
IMHO the car looks much better (re: more aggressive) in person. IIRC some of the chrome was removed in either 2015 or 2016 as well. I doubt I will change anything cosmetic in the near term. I will need to spend some money to get winter wheels/tires so that is ~2k in expenses coming in a few months anyway.
Did you get it?
Quote from: FoMoJo on July 06, 2016, 12:22:59 PM
Did you get it?
Not yet. Issue is the local dealer(s) only have automatics, I want a manual transmission. I am supposed to get a call later today to get an update on progress. The issue, as I understand it, is whether this dealer has something in stock that another dealer will want.
Quote from: ifcar on July 04, 2016, 10:47:56 AM
I can spread my hand and touch the dashboard and ceiling at the same time. :lol:
That is so incredibly bad.
So I've seen quite a few new Camaros IRL, and I have to say, as an enthusiast and aficionado, even I have to look twice and look hard to notice the difference between the 5th gen and 6th gen, which means most who see the new Camaro can't really tell a difference. The Mustang OTOH of course looks totally different, and I have to say, the looks have grown on me, at least the GT350 with its nose not so blunt. The ass is still too wide, but the proportions definitely stand out WRT the Camaro.
Same here! It's just too similar to the Updated 5th Gen!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on July 06, 2016, 03:55:17 PM
Same here! It's just too similar to the Updated 5th Gen!
Supposedly Camaro owners actually
like feeling cocooned in their cars...according to the designers at Chevy, at least. So the bunker-on-wheels feel is officially a Camaro thing now, I guess. Shame, that chassis is supposed to be a masterpiece.
I was surprised how big it looks in person. I think it is technically about the same size as my car, but it looks a lot bigger in person. Maybe its the long hood...?
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 13, 2016, 06:05:21 AM
I was surprised how big it looks in person. I think it is technically about the same size as my car, but it looks a lot bigger in person. Maybe its the long hood...?
It looks a LOT smaller to me! Especially when parked next to a 5th Gen.....
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 13, 2016, 06:05:21 AM
I was surprised how big it looks in person. I think it is technically about the same size as my car, but it looks a lot bigger in person. Maybe its the long hood...?
It's as long as an E39.... but as small inside as a BRZ....
And it's not like the E39 was snub nosed..... it just doesn't make sense to me
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2016, 11:13:28 AM
It's as long as an E39.... but as small inside as a BRZ....
And it's not like the E39 was snub nosed..... it just doesn't make sense to me
All three Pony Cars have always had long noses! it take room to stuff a big V8 in the front of these things!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on July 13, 2016, 11:19:03 AM
All three Pony Cars have always had long noses! it take room to stuff a big V8 in the front of these things!
E39 came with a V8. Also an I6, which is longer than a V8.
Doesn't have the awesome seating position and view over the hood though.
The further back you sit, the more fun it is to drift
Quote from: MX793 on July 13, 2016, 11:21:30 AM
E39 came with a V8. Also an I6, which is longer than a V8.
I was reffering more to the older models that these new cars are designed after. You guys act like these cars are the same size as a 65 Caddy! Do we really want these cars to have front overhangs the same length of a Civic?
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 13, 2016, 06:05:21 AM
I was surprised how big it looks in person. I think it is technically about the same size as my car, but it looks a lot bigger in person. Maybe its the long hood...?
It's because despite being the same physical size as your car, it has roughly four times the amount of body panel surface area, owing to the revolutionary lack of any windows.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on July 13, 2016, 10:44:56 AM
It looks a LOT smaller to me! Especially when parked next to a 5th Gen.....
Yeah. 5th gens looks huge. But the new 6th gen :wub:
I'm feeling like you sit as far back in an E39 as you do in a Camaro though... if not very close
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2486/4027393421_03de621523_b.jpg)
(http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2015/05/2016-Chevrolet-Camaro-side-profile-02.jpg)
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on July 13, 2016, 11:27:37 AM
Do we really want these cars to have front overhangs the same length of a Civic?
Yes...older Civics :wub:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on July 13, 2016, 10:44:56 AM
It looks a LOT smaller to me! Especially when parked next to a 5th Gen.....
When you mean smaller, you mean versus the old Camaro I assume. I was speaking in more general terms
I think I was expecting something ATS sized, but it seemed more CTS sized (but without the backseat).
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2016, 11:33:56 AM
I'm feeling like you sit as far back in an E39 as you do in a Camaro though... if not very close
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2486/4027393421_03de621523_b.jpg)
(http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2015/05/2016-Chevrolet-Camaro-side-profile-02.jpg)
Yes...older Civics :wub:
Nah, look at the distance from your butt to the rear axle. It's much closer in the pony cars.
Hip point seems centered between the front and rear wheels. Plus that doesn't explain the Camaro's tiny ass trunk. If the front seat is further back it's not that much further back.
Driver is sitting 2/3 of the way back in the Camaro versus right at or just ahead of the center point in the Bimmer.
Also, when scaling, the Camaro is wearing 20" wheels. I think the Bimmer is on 17s.
I know that Sporty likes his playthings short but the 6th generation Camaro is not as big as some make it out to be. It is only 3.6" longer than the 1st generation Camaro. It is almost exactly the same length as the 2nd generation Camaro and it is shorter than the 3rd, 4th and 5th generation Camaros.
They are all too big
Like I said before the 2 series is like a foot shorter with a bigger interior and trunk. OK it doesn't look as cool but neither did the Foxbody which still did great and still had the short deck long hood proportions.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2016, 04:22:32 PM
They are all too big
Like I said before the 2 series is like a foot shorter with a bigger interior and trunk. OK it doesn't look as cool but neither did the Foxbody which still did great and still had the short deck long hood proportions.
Fox bodies were ugly and the trunk was tiny. Smaller than the new Camaro's. And 2.5" less combined legroom than the current car.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on July 13, 2016, 04:22:32 PM
They are all too big
Like I said before the 2 series is like a foot shorter with a bigger interior and trunk. OK it doesn't look as cool but neither did the Foxbody which still did great and still had the short deck long hood proportions.
You need to spend a month driving a '72 Caprice or a '74 Sedan De Ville so you can fully understand what "Too Big" really means! :ohyeah:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on July 13, 2016, 08:10:49 PM
You need to spend a month driving a '72 Caprice or a '74 Sedan De Ville so you can fully understand what "Too Big" really means! :ohyeah:
Or a Cadillac hearse. Or a truck. Cars feel like go karts in comparison.
Quote from: giant_mtb on July 13, 2016, 08:24:00 PM
Or a Cadillac hearse. Or a truck. Cars feel like go karts in comparison.
I rented a Silverado Crew Cad a couple months ago and Found myself checking my mirrors constantly like I was driving a Big Rig!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on July 13, 2016, 08:10:49 PM
You need to spend a month driving a '72 Caprice or a '74 Sedan De Ville so you can fully understand what "Too Big" really means! :ohyeah:
When I was in high school (junior and senior years) my dad's car was a Ford LTD (early 80's model year IIRC). It was frikkin huge. We all called it the ghetto cruiser. :lol: It was hilariously huge and drove hilariously bad (floaty and imprecise would be yuuuuge understatements). I enjoyed driving it though because it was such a big attention grabber.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 14, 2016, 06:23:34 AM
When I was in high school (junior and senior years) my dad's car was a Ford LTD (early 80's model year IIRC). It was frikkin huge. We all called it the ghetto cruiser. :lol: It was hilariously huge and drove hilariously bad (floaty and imprecise would be yuuuuge understatements). I enjoyed driving it though because it was such a big attention grabber.
Those were still downsized quite a bit from the true big boats.
Quote from: giant_mtb on July 13, 2016, 08:24:00 PM
Or a Cadillac hearse. Or a truck. Cars feel like go karts in comparison.
In all honesty, the Mack R600 I used to drive had quicker response and more precise turn-in than my '75 Eldo did.
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 14, 2016, 07:52:58 AM
In all honesty, the Mack R600 I used to drive had quicker response and more precise turn-in than my '75 Eldo did.
That's a scary/strange thought. :lol:
Quote from: Soup DeVille on July 14, 2016, 07:51:18 AM
Those were still downsized quite a bit from the true big boats.
Depends on which early 80s LTD it was. The Panther based one or the much smaller Fox based one. Even the former wasn't as big as the boats of the 70s.
Quote from: MX793 on July 14, 2016, 09:07:46 AM
Depends on which early 80s LTD it was. The Panther based one or the much smaller Fox based one. Even the former wasn't as big as the boats of the 70s.
I was young, but it felt gigantic. I can't imagine it was based on the fox body (which is the Mustang IIRC), but who knows. The front end in particular seemed to go on forever.
From googling pictures I think this looks the closest to what I remember (except it was maroon). It was definitely a 2-door, FWIW.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/1975_Ford_LTD_Landau_Coupe_%28Auto_classique_Pointe-Claire_%2711%29.jpg)
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 14, 2016, 09:49:33 AM
I was young, but it felt gigantic. I can't imagine it was based on the fox body (which is the Mustang IIRC), but who knows. The front end in particular seemed to go on forever.
From googling pictures I think this looks the closest to what I remember (except it was maroon). It was definitely a 2-door, FWIW.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/1975_Ford_LTD_Landau_Coupe_%28Auto_classique_Pointe-Claire_%2711%29.jpg)
Fox platform underpinned several cars. The Mustang was the smallest, but it also underpinned some midsize cars like the Grenada, Continental, and LTD.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 14, 2016, 09:49:33 AM
I was young, but it felt gigantic. I can't imagine it was based on the fox body (which is the Mustang IIRC), but who knows. The front end in particular seemed to go on forever.
From googling pictures I think this looks the closest to what I remember (except it was maroon). It was definitely a 2-door, FWIW.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/1975_Ford_LTD_Landau_Coupe_%28Auto_classique_Pointe-Claire_%2711%29.jpg)
That was a pre-'79 one then.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 14, 2016, 09:49:33 AM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/1975_Ford_LTD_Landau_Coupe_%28Auto_classique_Pointe-Claire_%2711%29.jpg)
There's one of those in pale yellow at my apartment complex that's apparently for sale. Seems to be in good condition, too.
Maybe if it were an Eldorado...
Quote from: SJ_GTI on July 14, 2016, 09:49:33 AM
I was young, but it felt gigantic. I can't imagine it was based on the fox body (which is the Mustang IIRC), but who knows. The front end in particular seemed to go on forever.
From googling pictures I think this looks the closest to what I remember (except it was maroon). It was definitely a 2-door, FWIW.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/1975_Ford_LTD_Landau_Coupe_%28Auto_classique_Pointe-Claire_%2711%29.jpg)
LOL At Curb Feelers on the drivers side....
July sales numbers: 5,520 Camaros. Up about 10% from last month, down 26% from last July. GM introduced 0% financing on Camaro for the entire month of July.
Camaro was again behind the Challenger for monthly sales. Mustang and Challenger were both up (13% and 7%, respectively) versus July of last year.
Wow. I want a GM fire sale. Give me a V8 Camaro with a $10k discount :lol:
Quote from: MX793 on August 02, 2016, 10:39:54 AM
July sales numbers: 5,520 Camaros. Up about 10% from last month, down 26% from last July. GM introduced 0% financing on Camaro for the entire month of July.
Camaro was again behind the Challenger for monthly sales. Mustang and Challenger were both up (13% and 7%, respectively) versus July of last year.
It was 0% on the 2016's I assume? I think that is pretty standard model year end type incentives.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on August 02, 2016, 12:11:26 PM
It was 0% on the 2016's I assume? I think that is pretty standard model year end type incentives.
I believe so. Not sure 2017s are out yet.
Quote from: MrH on August 02, 2016, 11:09:14 AM
Wow. I want a GM fire sale. Give me a V8 Camaro with a $10k discount :lol:
Unfortunately that's still the same price as a comparable Mustang
If you can deal with the visibility and small trunk, the Camaro is enticing for the same money as a similarly spec'ed Mustang. 15-20% more is just too much of a stretch, especially with these cars clearing 40K when optioned up.
:cry: Maybe it'll pop up as a crazy deal on Leasehackr one day.
Fire sale on 1LE, which does the MT figure 8 in the same time as the gt350r and new m4 CSL type thing
Oh, I didn't realize the 1LE package was available for the new one. I guess it's been announced and it's coming?
Also, Krypton green is coming as a color option :praise:
That damn Alpha platform curse. Get em while they're hot
Quote from: MrH on August 02, 2016, 12:43:57 PM
Oh, I didn't realize the 1LE package was available for the new one. I guess it's been announced and it's coming?
Also, Krypton green is coming as a color option :praise:
Coming later this year for V6 and V8 models. They tested the V8 for Best driver's car. That will be a good read.
Loaded up V8, 1LE is going to be $50k+. That's rough.
Quote from: MrH on August 08, 2016, 02:23:13 PM
Loaded up V8, 1LE is going to be $50k+. That's rough.
$6500 option on the SS. Cheapest you can get a V8 1LE is over $43K. Ouch. And $4500 on the V6 model. That's over $32K to start. That's within a few hundred of what I paid for my GT w/ Performance Pack.
The 1LE can be had on a 1SS making it $43k, which will be 98% the performer and driver that the GT350 is but for $7k less.
The ZL1 is starts at only $62k (and mark my words, I'll bet it's as good or better performer/driver vs. the Z06, making the ZL1 the best performance bargain on the planet).
Yeah if the hints that a couple MT guys were giving the 1LE is even more impressive than the last one.
Quote from: 68_427 on August 08, 2016, 04:06:54 PM
Yeah if the hints that a couple MT guys were giving the 1LE is even more impressive than the last one.
While it will lack the "specialness" of the GT350, I fully expect it to deliver on performance and at a healthy discount. At least in V8 guise. The V6, much like the rest of the lesser Camaro line, is too rich for the blood of the typical buyer. A Mustang GT/PP with X-plan pricing (which anybody can get by joining MCoA) starts at $34-34.5K. A 1LT 1LE Camaro starts at $33.3K. Not hard justifying the extra ~1000 to get a V8.
Yeah the V6 1LE should come with a 3.73 rear end just like the V8. That would pair really really well with the 7500rpm v6.
Quote from: 68_427 on August 08, 2016, 09:59:14 PM
Yeah the V6 1LE should come with a 3.73 rear end just like the V8. That would pair really really well with the 7500rpm v6.
Depends on what the gearbox ratios are on the V6 vs the SS. My V6 Mustang with 3.31 gears had overall gearing somewhere between a 3.55 and 3.73 in a GT. 3.73 would have been way too short.
Damn
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/told-chevrolet-camaro-sales-plunging-now-gm-cut-camaro-prices-10/#more-1392834
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 09, 2016, 11:04:53 AM
Damn
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/told-chevrolet-camaro-sales-plunging-now-gm-cut-camaro-prices-10/#more-1392834
Damn, if that is true I wonder if I should be shopping for a Camaro. The sale looks like its only on 2016's, but there seem to be a lot in stock. I don't see anything like this listed on Chevy's website though. There is a 16% cashback sale on "tagged" 2016 models, but the Camaro and Corvette are not included.
Read the fine print and comments.
GM was just doing 20% off most of their models a month or so ago. 10% off on a small selection of their remaining 2016s is not that good of a deal.
Quote from: MrH on August 09, 2016, 11:15:11 AM
Read the fine print and comments.
GM was just doing 20% off most of their models a month or so ago. 10% off on a small selection of their remaining 2016s is not that good of a deal.
The 20% never applied to the Camaro and Corvette though.
The 10% off a Camaro would be news, but I am not sure I believe it is true. The best "special" I can find from googling 2016 Camaro's is an offer of 2.9% APR for 60 months.
It applied to the SS before the seatbelt issue popped up.
The fine print says it only applies to 18% of the leftover 2016 stock.
Quote from: MrH on August 09, 2016, 11:25:24 AM
It applied to the SS before the seatbelt issue popped up.
The fine print says it only applies to 18% of the leftover 2016 stock.
Yes, I know the SS was included, I was trying to buy one. :lol:
My comments above are about the Camaro and Corvette and those cars were never included in the 20% off deal, so again even if it only applies to left over stock it would still be a good deal if you found one.
Not amazing mind you, but pretty good, especially if the dealer is willing to haggle on top of the cash back offer.
Meh. Call me when they offer 20% off the Camaro + haggling :lol: I want a $45k 2SS Camaro for <$35k. That'd get my interest.
Quote from: MrH on August 09, 2016, 11:15:11 AM
Read the fine print and comments.
GM was just doing 20% off most of their models a month or so ago. 10% off on a small selection of their remaining 2016s is not that good of a deal.
True; 10% though should be able to be had without any sort of official discount program, esp. on a car that I have to imagine sits around quite a while before it's sold.
Should not be hard to get a good deal on Camaros...... not looking good at all brehs
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/chevrolet-camaro-sales-plunging-camaro-inventory-ballooned-129-day-supply/
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 22, 2016, 08:35:09 AM
Should not be hard to get a good deal on Camaros...... not looking good at all brehs
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/08/chevrolet-camaro-sales-plunging-camaro-inventory-ballooned-129-day-supply/
looking good for anyone who happens to look to buy a used one a few years down the line...
http://blog.caranddriver.com/stealers-wheel-thieves-steal-more-than-200000-in-wheels-and-tires-from-texas-dealership/?mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&src=nl&date=082916
Daaaaaaaamn.
Camaro 1LE laps Laguna in the same time as the M4 GTS, and sounds soooo much better doing it.
GT350-R is 1.5 seconds ahead of both.
Oh man I can't wait for the Z/28. GT350R is going to get murdered.
:(
GT350R is a good carrrr. Doesn't deserve such treatment
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 06, 2016, 01:55:33 PM
:(
GT350R is a good carrrr. Doesn't deserve such treatment
I've been kind of disappointed in them IRL. They sound amazing at WOT but at anything less it's just a regular Mustang noise. Maybe they just need an aftermarket exhaust.
Quote from: 68_427 on September 06, 2016, 12:34:16 AM
Camaro 1LE laps Laguna in the same time as the M4 GTS, and sounds soooo much better doing it.
GT350-R is 1.5 seconds ahead of both.
How fast is the standard SS?
Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 06, 2016, 04:16:15 PM
I've been kind of disappointed in them IRL. They sound amazing at WOT but at anything less it's just a regular Mustang noise. Maybe they just need an aftermarket exhaust.
:hesaid:
Quote from: MX793 on September 06, 2016, 04:56:01 PM
How fast is the standard SS?
Not quite sure. This info is coming from the 2016 Best Driver's Car by MT and they just gave that info out in the Ignition episode of the M4 GTS.
And they said "about as fast" as a 1LE so I guess that means a couple tenths probably in either direction. (The M4 ran a 1:37.66)
Hey Mike....
(http://i.imgur.com/RkaDtjK.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/S3vivhS.jpg)
I'd assume "about as fast" means a tenth slower.
(which for any real world purposes is a tie)
Quote from: 68_427 on September 06, 2016, 09:43:41 PM
Not quite sure. This info is coming from the 2016 Best Driver's Car by MT and they just gave that info out in the Ignition episode of the M4 GTS.
And they said "about as fast" as a 1LE so I guess that means a couple tenths probably in either direction. (The M4 ran a 1:37.66)
Hey Mike....
(http://i.imgur.com/RkaDtjK.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/S3vivhS.jpg)
So $6.5k extra for the 1LE package and it's not materially faster than the regular SS?
What did the regular SS run? For another comparison the Z/28 ran 1:37.82 at Best Driver's Car 2014, also driven by Randy Pobst.
Quote from: 68_427 on September 07, 2016, 04:40:39 AM
What did the regular SS run?
I don't know. Was your "about as fast as a 1LE" not referring to the 1LE vs SS?
Quote from: MX793 on September 07, 2016, 04:43:02 AM
I don't know. Was your "about as fast as a 1LE" not referring to the 1LE vs SS?
It was referring to the M4 GTS
More reference is the 2017 GT-R ran 1:37.1 and the new NSX on optional R-Comps ran a 1:36.36.
Quote from: 68_427 on September 07, 2016, 09:37:45 PM
More reference is the 2017 GT-R ran 1:37.1 and the new NSX on optional R-Comps ran a 1:36.36.
Is the NSX time out somewhere? I don't recall that.
Quote from: Xer0 on September 07, 2016, 10:18:16 PM
Is the NSX time out somewhere? I don't recall that.
The latest Head 2 Head on MTOD is the GT-R vs NSX
Quote from: 68_427 on September 06, 2016, 09:43:41 PM
Not quite sure. This info is coming from the 2016 Best Driver's Car by MT and they just gave that info out in the Ignition episode of the M4 GTS.
And they said "about as fast" as a 1LE so I guess that means a couple tenths probably in either direction. (The M4 ran a 1:37.66)
Hey Mike....
(http://i.imgur.com/RkaDtjK.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/S3vivhS.jpg)
It does look good...
Quote from: 68_427 on September 08, 2016, 12:13:35 AM
The latest Head 2 Head on MTOD is the GT-R vs NSX
That means I gotta wait a month cause I'm cheap lol
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
saw someone driving with their arm on the windowsill of a red Camaro.
It was literally above their shoulder. :mask: :confused:
http://jalopnik.com/brand-new-chevrolet-camaros-are-absurdly-cheap-right-no-1787662886
:cry: chevy why u do diss to me
Quote from: MrH on October 11, 2016, 03:31:15 PM
http://jalopnik.com/brand-new-chevrolet-camaros-are-absurdly-cheap-right-no-1787662886
:cry: chevy why u do diss to me
On select dealer stock left-over 2016s, which means most, if not all, of those cars are going to be automatic equipped LT models (V6 and 4-bangers). And these heavy discounts pull those cars down to the price point they should have been at in the first place.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on September 22, 2016, 12:50:18 PM
saw someone driving with their arm on the windowsill of a red Camaro.
It was literally above their shoulder. :mask: :confused:
I've found that uncomfortable in new cars since like 2008 :frown: Luckily I have an old car :praise:
http://www.chevrolet.com/2016-camaro-sports-car/locate.html?x-zipcode=44123#/vehicle-details?vin=1G1FH1R70G0134907
SOOOO TEMPTING!
Quote from: MX793 on October 11, 2016, 04:22:05 PM
On select dealer stock left-over 2016s, which means most, if not all, of those cars are going to be automatic equipped LT models (V6 and 4-bangers). And these heavy discounts pull those cars down to the price point they should have been at in the first place.
There's a black/black '16 2SS with manual for $33k close to my house. Doesn't have magnaride, but that's about the only option missing. Hyper Blue is better than black too.
http://www.jeffschmittchevysouth.com/vehicle-details/2016-chevrolet-camaro-2ss-miamisburg-oh-id-12000428
DDing that thing would not be fun if you have traffic. I'm super tempted to get a V6 or V8 Camaro when I get back, but when there's traffic it'll just feel like a cool looking coupe.
I loved having the Mustang, but so much was lost in depreciation and most of the time I couldn't enjoy it like the Miata.
Now on the other hand... buying a used one (mustang) for cheap and doing track days with it...
(because who wants to wad up a brand new SS on the track?)
Just blows my mind you can get M4 level performance for $33k new.
I don't think there's a vehicle new or used that can keep up for $33k. Crazy value. But you're right. Commuting with 455 hp isn't particularly fun. ND miata would be more fun, substantially cheaper to buy, maintain, and insure too.
Only way I could do a 450+ HP car is if I had the money and time to chew through Brembos and PSS at track days on a regular basis................
And even then I'd need to keep it weird.... old fox body with the Cobra IRS, a cage + reinforcements and a Coyote swap sounds sweeter
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 12, 2016, 07:34:59 AM
Only way I could do a 450+ HP car is if I had the money and time to chew through Brembos and PSS at track days on a regular basis................
And even then I'd need to keep it weird.... old fox body with the Cobra IRS, a cage + reinforcements and a Coyote swap sounds sweeter
sounds sweet AND unreliable. You guys are talking like current 450hp cars are unstreetable beast! I'm willing to bet an SS is no less streetable (drivetrain wise) than a V6 Camry.
An engine swapped, highly modified, 16 year old car with a cage does not sound sweeter at all. It would perform substantially worse and would be a nightmare to build.
Quote from: MrH on October 12, 2016, 06:44:52 AM
There's a black/black '16 2SS with manual for $33k close to my house. Doesn't have magnaride, but that's about the only option missing. Hyper Blue is better than black too.
http://www.jeffschmittchevysouth.com/vehicle-details/2016-chevrolet-camaro-2ss-miamisburg-oh-id-12000428
the one I posted (white with white interior and sunroof)is not showing up. It had Mag Ride and Dual Mode exhaust for 34k. With my GM discount it be right around 30! :rockon:
You can add on a GM Discount too? How do you have yours?
I have enough connections I could probably get one too...
I'm seeing that white one for $38k, and it's got an auto :(
Quote from: MrH on October 12, 2016, 09:30:03 AM
You can add on a GM Discount too? How do you have yours?
I have enough connections I could probably get one too...
I'm seeing that white one for $38k, and it's got an auto :(
damn. I didn't notice the Auto. I cudda sworn it was 34. My uncle is a retired GM EXEC! He tells them I'm his son and I get employee pricing.
Damn. Can I be his son too?
I know ya'll are loving the SS, but the new V6 1LE strikes me as the sweet spot in the line. When im car shopping in the next 1.5 years, it'll be on my list.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-G8 on October 12, 2016, 09:24:10 AM
sounds sweet AND unreliable. You guys are talking like current 450hp cars are unstreetable beast! I'm willing to bet an SS is no less streetable (drivetrain wise) than a V6 Camry.
Yeah, my main problem with that much HP would be trying to keep my foot out of it, not the fact that it's unstreetable.
In the same vein I'm considering an R1 as my next bike. :partyon:
I can get GM discounts but I'm not sure how good it is on Camaros and Corvettes.
I have 400 HP and it's a ton of fun no matter what traffic is like :huh:
And a Fox body with a Coyote can absolutely run faster than a new one FWIW. Just depends on how much money you wanna spend.
Quote from: Xer0 on October 12, 2016, 10:38:11 AM
I know ya'll are loving the SS, but the new V6 1LE strikes me as the sweet spot in the line. When im car shopping in the next 1.5 years, it'll be on my list.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The V6 1LE isn't available for 20+% off right now though.
And the more you option one up, the more of a discount you get :lol: I found a totally stripped V6, manual Camaro for $19k. But for another $13k, you get every option and a V8. Seems like a better deal to me.
All of you are pussies. 455 hp would be dope. $33k Camaro SS all the way.
It's faster than an F430. It's nutty performance per dollar.
Quote from: CALL_911 on October 12, 2016, 01:18:27 PM
All of you are pussies. 455 hp would be dope. $33k Camaro SS all the way.
You probably can't enjoy the power, since it weighs as much as an SUV and has the sightlines of an M1 Abrams, but it's not unstreetable. Driving that thing at 100mph on a highway probably feels like sitting on a sofa in your living room, but you can only see a small part of the TV. On the plus side, you'll probably die when the ignition switch fails or the car locks you in the cabin on a hot day.
Quote from: MrH on October 12, 2016, 01:20:03 PM
It's faster than an F430. It's nutty performance per dollar.
A $15K ZX10R will mop the floor with everything south of a LaFerrari.... there's more to driving enjoyment than performance/$$$$, especially on the skreet
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 13, 2016, 08:21:47 AM
A $15K ZX10R will mop the floor with everything south of a LaFerrari.... there's more to driving enjoyment than performance/$$$$, especially on the skreet
I would enjoy an SS a lot more than an F430 on the street.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on October 13, 2016, 10:31:07 AM
I would enjoy an SS a lot more than an F430 on the street.
Every time I'd park the Ferrari I'd be terrified of some numbnut dinging the door.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 13, 2016, 11:32:13 AM
Every time I'd park the Ferrari I'd be terrified of some numbnut dinging the door.
Or some asshole sitting on the car to take a picture of it, or some other asshole keying it, etc.
I want to test drive one of these new camaros just to see what the hype is about.
455 hp means long gears most likely. It tops first at 54 mph, 80 mph for 2nd. It's really only two fun gears then. Ultimately, I think a miata will always be more fun for me.
Swapping in 3.73s is simple.
Best gearing is to have 2nd top out at 70-72 mph.
Shorter FD will make 1st pointless, putting him back to square one :lol:
Quote from: MrH on October 13, 2016, 11:43:22 AM
I want to test drive one of these new camaros just to see what the hype is about.
455 hp means long gears most likely. It tops first at 54 mph, 80 mph for 2nd. It's really only two fun gears then. Ultimately, I think a miata will always be more fun for me.
It is nice to be able to wind out 3rd and some of 4th in the Miata (even the top of 3rd is in the 80's though) but being able to do 120 mph in 2nd is a different kind of fun. :lol:
Quote from: MrH on October 13, 2016, 11:43:22 AM
I want to test drive one of these new camaros just to see what the hype is about.
455 hp means long gears most likely. It tops first at 54 mph, 80 mph for 2nd. It's really only two fun gears then. Ultimately, I think a miata will always be more fun for me.
Camaro is taller than Mustang, but my Mustang with 435 hp is geared such that it taps out at 62 mph in 2nd. Totally manageable, though I wish it was a little taller so I wouldn't run out of gear on some faster auto-x courses.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 13, 2016, 11:57:04 AM
Shorter FD will make 1st pointless, putting him back to square one :lol:
Apparently SS manual Camaros have 3.73's stock. But, you can swap in 4.11's and top out at 49 and 73. That's just about perfect.
Quote from: MrH on October 13, 2016, 11:43:22 AM
I want to test drive one of these new camaros just to see what the hype is about.
455 hp means long gears most likely. It tops first at 54 mph, 80 mph for 2nd. It's really only two fun gears then. Ultimately, I think a miata will always be more fun for me.
:facepalm:
Guys relax he's getting a SS M6 sometime anyways.
Quote from: 68_427 on October 13, 2016, 09:47:51 PM
Guys relax he's getting a SS M6 sometime anyways.
:praise:
Quote from: Raza on October 13, 2016, 07:19:49 AM
You probably can't enjoy the power, since it weighs as much as an SUV and has the sightlines of an M1 Abrams, but it's not unstreetable. Driving that thing at 100mph on a highway probably feels like sitting on a sofa in your living room, but you can only see a small part of the TV. On the plus side, you'll probably die when the ignition switch fails or the car locks you in the cabin on a hot day.
:lol:
Quote from: MrH on October 13, 2016, 11:43:22 AM
Ultimately, I think a miata will always be more fun for me.
+1
How often could you put your right foot on the floor of a Camaro? Without worrying about cops?
HP is sweet and fun and AWESOME but just can't make the most of it DDing.
Video of the 2017 ZL1 at the 'Ring is up: 7:29, which is quick, but not as quick as I expected; decent company at about that time - M4 GTS, GTR, Huracan, F458. In total it's groundbreaking however considering the ZL1 has a base MSRP of $62k...
Note that this is the 10 sp AT, and the driver never once uses the paddles. Also note the RPM drop between gears (or at least the gears at these speeds) is only ~1,000 RPM. Faster with the 6MT? My hunch is yes, it would be. This AT seems good but it can't predict the course (i.e., downshifting only with brake application or less throttle isn't as effective).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrFnrcpBj5k
I wish the telematics had a gear indicator. Thing's fast for sure but something about doing the ring in full auto mode just seems wrong
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on October 25, 2016, 06:25:20 AM
I wish the telematics had a gear indicator. Thing's fast for sure but something about doing the ring in full auto mode just seems wrong
It seems wrong, but whatever mode it was in seemed pretty good for track use. Holding gears, engine braking, etc. Maybe it has ... track mode?
Quote from: GoCougs on October 24, 2016, 09:21:25 PM
Video of the 2017 ZL1 at the 'Ring is up: 7:29, which is quick, but not as quick as I expected; decent company at about that time - M4 GTS, GTR, Huracan, F458. In total it's groundbreaking however considering the ZL1 has a base MSRP of $62k...
Note that this is the 10 sp AT, and the driver never once uses the paddles. Also note the RPM drop between gears (or at least the gears at these speeds) is only ~1,000 RPM. Faster with the 6MT? My hunch is yes, it would be. This AT seems good but it can't predict the course (i.e., downshifting only with brake application or less throttle isn't as effective).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrFnrcpBj5k
Not a bad time, how does it compare to the C7 Z06 times?
If it's like the 8AT in the Vette, it'll be faster in D than in manual mode.
Stock 2017 ZL1 6MT vs. stock 2017 Z06 7MT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D25GwFG1dzk
Hennessy races them from a roll up to ~130 mph. Many races, and they're basically tied, with maybe a wee bit of an advantage for the Z06 (less than a car length) right at the end.
I've been saying it for some time - I would not be surprised of the ZL1 is the better performance car. Sure, it's heavier and much bigger, so it won't probably have the raw track numbers, but the chassis looks to be better suited for all that RWD power, and I think it will be a better drive and more controllable (= more confidence inspiring).
Very curious to see what it does around a track. I'm sure MT is filming as we speak
(Glowing) C&D review of the new ZL1: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-first-drive-review
DOPE!
In M/T's hands ZL1 10sp AT beats McLaren 570S around Willows. Not as fast as the Z06/Z07 but after abuse at the track for days it didn't overheat or get heat soak, and they intimate it's far easier to handle. They do say the 1LE is sharper and more tossable though: http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2017/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-first-test-brute-squad-goals/
ZL1's kind of scary
I really want the V6 1LE. More than enough power for me and still stupid capable. But damn, if the ZL1 is this amazing (and doesn't overheat!), I wonder what a Z/28 will look like.
Quote from: Xer0 on December 23, 2016, 09:14:29 AM
I really want the V6 1LE. More than enough power for me and still stupid capable. But damn, if the ZL1 is this amazing (and doesn't overheat!), I wonder what a Z/28 will look like.
11 Heat exchangers keep it cool! It didn't over heat at all.
Quote from: Xer0 on December 23, 2016, 09:14:29 AM
I really want the V6 1LE. More than enough power for me and still stupid capable. But damn, if the ZL1 is this amazing (and doesn't overheat!), I wonder what a Z/28 will look like.
I still can't get my mind to accept a V6 1LE when a V8 1LE is also available :lol:
Quote from: MrH on December 24, 2016, 09:38:30 AM
I still can't get my mind to accept a V6 1LE when a V8 1LE is also available :lol:
MAN LAW! :ohyeah:
Quote from: MrH on December 24, 2016, 09:38:30 AM
I still can't get my mind to accept a V6 1LE when a V8 1LE is also available :lol:
10k less helps :lol:
I prefer the sound of a 6 cylinder
Carlos said the v6 1le is "cute" and a total sweetheart. I think he mentioned slight rev hang and long 2-3 throw as things that aren't quite perfect but that's all. He said it's a well rounded package.
Quote from: 68_427 on December 27, 2016, 03:05:42 AM
Carlos said the v6 1le is "cute" and a total sweetheart. I think he mentioned slight rev hang and long 2-3 throw as things that aren't quite perfect but that's all. He said it's a well rounded package.
Sounds a lot like a Versa S ...
Quote from: GoCougs on December 02, 2016, 09:29:04 AM
Stock 2017 ZL1 6MT vs. stock 2017 Z06 7MT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D25GwFG1dzk
Hennessy races them from a roll up to ~130 mph. Many races, and they're basically tied, with maybe a wee bit of an advantage for the Z06 (less than a car length) right at the end.
I've been saying it for some time - I would not be surprised of the ZL1 is the better performance car. Sure, it's heavier and much bigger, so it won't probably have the raw track numbers, but the chassis looks to be better suited for all that RWD power, and I think it will be a better drive and more controllable (= more confidence inspiring).
Sounds like Z06 missed a gear and lost some ground. It was pulling before and after that. Strange they didn't make more runs (or at least didn't show them)
If the Z06 missed a shift it would have been dropped by car lengths.
Top speed vids are showing the ZL1 to have a bit shorter gearing which if true would about offset the Z06's ~10% power/weight advantage. Run them out further and the Z06 would probably pull ahead as it's a much smaller car.
Quote from: GoCougs on December 28, 2016, 01:09:13 PM
If the Z06 missed a shift it would have been dropped by car lengths.
Top speed vids are showing the ZL1 to have a bit shorter gearing which if true would about offset the Z06's ~10% power/weight advantage. Run them out further and the Z06 would probably pull ahead as it's a much smaller car.
There was definitely something going on with one of the upshifts in the Vette. You hear right at the 3 minute mark where the Z06 driver blips the throttle mid-upshift like they couldn't get it into gear and were trying to rev-match into gear.
Quote from: MX793 on December 28, 2016, 02:05:34 PM
There was definitely something going on with one of the upshifts in the Vette. You hear right at the 3 minute mark where the Z06 driver blips the throttle mid-upshift like they couldn't get it into gear and were trying to rev-match into gear.
I saw that but that was only one shot from one race. See second half of the vid - they ran multiple races with the same noted (tie) result.
Can't wait to see the V6 1LE vs M2 Head 2 Head. I've got no doubts the M2 is a better car in nearly every way, but I'm excited to see how close the Camaro can get to being competitive.
The Camaro is definitely the better car for magazine comparisons, but I'd want nothing to do with that battleship in a daily driving capacity.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 13, 2017, 05:51:54 AM
The Camaro is definitely the better car for magazine comparisons, but I'd want nothing to do with that battleship in a daily driving capacity.
Your wife can see out of it fine. This time the Camaro is definitely out muscled and the hardware and chassis tuning on the M2 are pretty much sport on. I feel like this will be a "If you can't afford the M2 can you be happy with the Camaro?" type comparison.
Quote from: 68_427 on January 13, 2017, 05:58:12 AM
Your wife can see out of it fine. This time the Camaro is definitely out muscled and the hardware and chassis tuning on the M2 are pretty much sport on. I feel like this will be a "If you can't afford the M2 can you be happy with the Camaro?" type comparison.
If I couldn't afford an M2, I'd get a Mustang GTPP before paying more for a V6 1LE. Usable trunk and the ability to actually see out of the car and all...
Quote from: 68_427 on January 13, 2017, 05:58:12 AM
Your wife can see out of it fine. This time the Camaro is definitely out muscled and the hardware and chassis tuning on the M2 are pretty much sport on. I feel like this will be a "If you can't afford the M2 can you be happy with the Camaro?" type comparison.
M2 outguns it on power + power/weight, but 1LE has the magic magnetic shocks right? If so it's def got the M2 beat chassis wise. M2 wins for me simply because it will def be a nicer car to live with on a day to day basis.
Quote from: 68_427 on January 13, 2017, 05:21:43 AM
Can't wait to see the V6 1LE vs M2 Head 2 Head. I've got no doubts the M2 is a better car in nearly every way, but I'm excited to see how close the Camaro can get to being competitive.
Well, the Camaro looks 10x better, so there's that ;).
Not sure why the comparison vs. the V6 - the base MSRPs are not even in the same universe at $34k vs. $56k. The SS 1LE is closer at $46k, and it of course crushes the M2 in track performance.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on January 13, 2017, 06:34:40 AM
M2 outguns it on power + power/weight, but 1LE has the magic magnetic shocks right? If so it's def got the M2 beat chassis wise. M2 wins for me simply because it will def be a nicer car to live with on a day to day basis.
No it doesn't. Regular shocks from the SS.
@COUGS THE COMPARISON CAME FROM THE LEFTOVER CARS THAT DIDNT MAKE THE BEST DRIVERS CAR FEATURE
Quote from: GoCougs on January 13, 2017, 06:43:24 AM
Well, the Camaro looks 10x better, so there's that ;).
Not sure why the comparison vs. the V6 - the base MSRPs are not even in the same universe at $34k vs. $56k. The SS 1LE is closer at $46k, and it of course crushes the M2 in track performance.
:hesaid:
M/T On Demand has a review up of the 2017 ZL1. In Pobst's hands on Big Willow the 6MT turned a time ahead of the C7 Grand Sport, AMG GT S and 911 GT3, among others, and just behind the GT-R NISMO. He also tested a 10A but it was actually a bit slower. The Z06 was notably quicker (by more than a second) but they said the ZL1 is far easier to live with and far more confidence inspiring.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 20, 2017, 07:25:55 PM
M/T On Demand has a review up of the 2017 ZL1. In Pobst's hands on Big Willow the 6MT turned a time ahead of the C7 Grand Sport, AMG GT S and 911 GT3, among others, and just behind the GT-R NISMO. He also tested a 10A but it was actually a bit slower. The Z06 was notably quicker (by more than a second) but they said the ZL1 is far easier to live with and far more confidence inspiring.
:rockon:
Quote from: GoCougs on February 20, 2017, 07:25:55 PM
M/T On Demand has a review up of the 2017 ZL1. In Pobst's hands on Big Willow the 6MT turned a time ahead of the C7 Grand Sport, AMG GT S and 911 GT3, among others, and just behind the GT-R NISMO. He also tested a 10A but it was actually a bit slower. The Z06 was notably quicker (by more than a second) but they said the ZL1 is far easier to live with and far more confidence inspiring.
The 10A was much quicker at the end of the straits but Randy kept his minimum speed higher in the 6MT car somehow. Turn 9 he slowed to 90mph in the auto but only to 96 in the Manual which is why the manual was faster. I wonder if the wider spaced gearing provides just enough traction compared to the 10A to give him a little more confidence through the apex...
I just re watched the lap a couple more times and the apex speed in the 6MT car was always at least a couple mph higher.
Interesting analysis. I think the graphics are more or less for show. For example, in the below screen shot, the cars are at virtually the same spot in the track yet the cursor shows the 6MT a ways ahead and the 6MT HUD speedo says 116 mph but the video shows only 97 mph:
(https://s27.postimg.org/nns2g8f7n/camaro.png)
He lets the 10A shift itself. It's apparently pretty good but how far in advance of a corner can it predict the need to downshift, and to which gear? Does it know not to shift in tight(er) corners? It could be a confidence thing but I think the devil's in the details. If the 10A gets any one of those many moves or predictions less than ideal over an entire road course, and that's about the margin of the difference between the times - 1:26.15 vs. 1:26.47.
A third of a second is nothing over an 80-90 second lap
The 10A seems superfluous though.... I race the C7 Z06 in Forza with the 8A and that is too much. The engine is so torquey you can lug the hell out of it and still have good drive. Actually its almost better to keep it a gear low.... easy to overwhelm with 650lb-ft. Such a weird pairing
Quote from: GoCougs on February 21, 2017, 12:13:25 AM
Interesting analysis. I think the graphics are more or less for show. For example, in the below screen shot, the cars are at virtually the same spot in the track yet the cursor shows the 6MT a ways ahead and the 6MT HUD speedo says 116 mph but the video shows only 97 mph:
(https://s27.postimg.org/nns2g8f7n/camaro.png)
He lets the 10A shift itself. It's apparently pretty good but how far in advance of a corner can it predict the need to downshift, and to which gear? Does it know not to shift in tight(er) corners? It could be a confidence thing but I think the devil's in the details. If the 10A gets any one of those many moves or predictions less than ideal over an entire road course, and that's about the margin of the difference between the times - 1:26.15 vs. 1:26.47.
Good point. You're a better detective than I.
Fuck, just watched the MT vid. This thing is the new GT-R. Except unlike the GT-R, there's no question about its character or engagement. It's the complete package.
*EDIT* Some lap times for your consumption:
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow-springs
'15 GT-R was ~4 seconds slower :mask: $150K Nismo GT-R is only ~.5s faster :mask:
Randy Pobst did run a 1:25.87 with the A10 after playing with the tire pressures. They didn't capture that with the vbox, only
the onboard PDR, so they didn't use it as the official time. So there's that
lol that's tied with the McLaren 650S...
Chevy engineers ain't playin around anymore. This is fun to watch.
It would probably be faster with a two speed powerglide with a manual valvebody and a high stall torque converter.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 22, 2017, 06:10:16 AM
Chevy engineers ain't playin around anymore. This is fun to watch.
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT! I can't wait to see what the C8 does!!!
So here is what had been thought to be the Z/28...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCr7Rvw8ihM
(http://icdn-2.motor1.com/images/mgl/JQXMM/s3/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-1le.jpg)
(http://icdn-6.motor1.com/images/mgl/yxNwo/s3/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-1le.jpg)
(http://icdn-8.motor1.com/images/mgl/3VGkR/s3/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-1le.jpg)
Quote2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE Sets Benchmark for Track Capability
Special aero, adjustable suspension, exclusive tires drive unprecedented performance for a production sports car
DAYTONA, Fla. — Chevrolet has established a new performance benchmark with the introduction of the 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE — the most track-capable Camaro ever.
Taking the track-focused 1LE formula to an unprecedented level, the ZL1 1LE incorporates racing-based suspension and aero technologies, as well as exclusive Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar 3R summer-only tires,* in an extreme track performance package.
"The track-focused 1LE package offers progressive levels of performance across the Camaro lineup, from the V6 1LE to the SS 1LE," said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. "But with the new ZL1 1LE, the progression takes a quantum leap — this is the ultimate track-day Camaro."
In preliminary testing, the new ZL1 1LE was 3 seconds faster than the standard ZL1 Coupe around General Motors' 2.9-mile, 18-turn Milford Road Course test track.
The improved track performance is driven by four key elements:
Aerodynamics: New aero features including a carbon fiber rear wing, specific air deflectors and dive planes on the front fascia produce grip-generating downforce to help the car stick harder and drive faster in turns.
Adjustable suspension: The ZL1 1LE features racing-derived, lightweight Multimatic DSSV® (Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve) dampers front and rear for exceptional wheel and vehicle control. The front-end ride height is adjustable with the front dampers, which are used with all-new, adjustable camber plates. The rear stabilizer bar also offers three-way adjustability. All of the components are designed for quick changes at the track for optimal performance and a quick return to street settings when the track day ends.
Wheels and tires: New, lightweight forged aluminum wheels are an inch wider but an inch smaller in diameter, front and rear, than standard ZL1 wheels and are used with new Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar 3R tires that deliver max lateral grip of 1.10g. Developed exclusively for the Camaro ZL1 1LE, the 3R tires are designed to warm up faster to help maintain more consistent grip and speed, lap after lap. The overall footprint grows approximately 10 percent over the ZL1, but the wheel-and-tire package weighs about 1.5 pounds (3.3 kg) less per corner.
Lighter weight: The lighter wheels and dampers, along with reduced thickness rear glass and a fixed-back rear seat, contribute to an approximately 60-pound (27 kg) lower curb weight than a standard ZL1 Coupe.
"The new Camaro ZL1 1LE offers the supreme track experience," said Mark Dickens, executive director, Chevrolet Performance Variants, Parts and Motorsports Engineering. "It's the pinnacle of Camaro performance and advances the 1LE's nearly 30-year legacy of uncompromising, track-tailored capability."
The power behind the ZL1 1LE is the 650-horsepower, supercharged LT4 engine backed by a six-speed manual transmission featuring Active Rev Match. Brembo brakes, including red calipers with the 1LE logo, are also included. Additional standard features include dual-zone automatic climate control, Bose premium audio system, heated/ventilated front seats and heated steering wheel.
The 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE goes on sale later this year. Pricing will be announced closer to the on-sale date.
Those rear steamrollers
hubba hubba
yum
Can it be Z/28 tiem yet pls
Quote from: Cookie Monster on February 24, 2017, 05:30:18 PM
Can it be Z/28 tiem yet pls
Gotta wait for Ford to strike back.
Then why aren't they calling it the Z28? I'll be a bit sad if that's the case. Of course this will be monster - probably equal to the Z06/Z07 - but I was hoping for a Z28 that would basically be an SS 1LE with a N/A "LT7" with say 550 hp.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 24, 2017, 05:32:36 PM
Then why aren't they calling it the Z28? I'll be a bit sad if that's the case. Of course this will be monster - probably equal to the Z06/Z07 - but I was hoping for a Z28 that would basically be an SS 1LE with a N/A "LT7" with say 550 hp.
Makes sense that this would come first - they already had the LT4. Developing a new engine is gonna take longer. Probably won't see that until the C8 is developed further. There were rumors of a DOHC mill with that.
I don't think there will be a Z28. This is it. The Alpha platform is so good and handles this power so well that they saw no reason to go with a lower HP engine for their track model.
Screw the Z28. It's fast, blah blah, whatever. Old news.
What we need is a Berlinetta.
(https://i2.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Brochure-1982-Berlinetta-1.png)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/47/e9/a9/47e9a98c540e54a376fe3bd99c0c1246.jpg)
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 24, 2017, 05:45:14 PM
Makes sense that this would come first - they already had the LT4. Developing a new engine is gonna take longer. Probably won't see that until the C8 is developed further. There were rumors of a DOHC mill with that.
That's actually a really good point. I hope it's what they end up doing. At this point GM just wants to smack the world over with how great it's track performance and this is just a slightly bigger sledgehammer for that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
When do we get the ZL1 1LE IROC-Z/28 model?
The C7 Grand Sport and the GT350R get/got decent track performance and driver experience accolades without such monster power; I mean, less than this ZL1 1LE, but still...
Quote from: 68_427 on February 24, 2017, 05:58:36 PM
I don't think there will be a Z28. This is it. The Alpha platform is so good and handles this power so well that they saw no reason to go with a lower HP engine for their track model.
I want less power, less weight and a higher revving V8.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 24, 2017, 05:30:53 PM
Gotta wait for Ford to strike back.
Fuck.... thats gonna be one hell of a bitch slap. Too bad nobody's gonna care wallet wise.
Maybe Ford will bring back the Probe.
Quote from: Cookie Monster on February 24, 2017, 08:10:51 PM
I want less power, less weight and a higher revving V8.
C6 Z's are in the mid 30's
Quote from: 68_427 on February 25, 2017, 05:01:59 PM
C6 Z's are in the mid 30's
I think he wants something with stable valve guides
I would fuck with a C5... that FRC donk :wub:
I was never a fan of the C5 Z06.......
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 25, 2017, 07:12:21 PM
I think he wants something with stable valve guides
I would fuck with a C5... that FRC donk :wub:
Broken valves is just an excuse to upgrade everything else. Ask me how I know.
This popped up on my youtube feed a couple days ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCp3KOJ4jZQ
I thought it was an interesting review. The Camaro seems like such a nice car, shame it gives up so much on practicality. It does make you wonder how good an ATS V-Sport would be if they just kept the NA V6 and gave it all the other "V" upgrades (including the manual transmission).
I'm legit impressed with the chassis team at GM. Now they just need to figure out how to make a car you can see out of. A trunk that doesn't have a tiny opening that greatly restricts its usefulness would be a nice touch, too.
Quote from: MX793 on March 13, 2017, 05:00:48 PM
I'm legit impressed with the chassis team at GM. Now they just need to figure out how to make a car you can see out of. A trunk that doesn't have a tiny opening that greatly restricts its usefulness would be a nice touch, too.
Chevy SS.......
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on March 13, 2017, 06:12:04 PM
Chevy SS.......
Different (older generation) platform, weighs over 2-tons, and looks like a 5-year-old Malibu.
Quote from: MX793 on March 13, 2017, 08:33:09 PM
Different (older generation) platform, weighs over 2-tons, and looks like a 5-year-old Malibu.
Lets not get picky............. :lol:
Another Camaro video popped on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0amO_lJks8
***spoiler***
I was surprised the 6MT went around the track (slightly) faster than the 10AT.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 27, 2017, 07:31:24 AM
Another Camaro video popped on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0amO_lJks8
***spoiler***
I was surprised the 6MT went around the track (slightly) faster than the 10AT.
Quote from: 68_427 on February 21, 2017, 11:56:32 PM
Randy Pobst did run a 1:25.87 with the A10 after playing with the tire pressures. They didn't capture that with the vbox, only
the onboard PDR, so they didn't use it as the official time. So there's that
Haha, I think I skipped that whole discussion. No video no care (and I am too cheap to pay for their subscription to watch them when they first come out). :lol:
I'm waiting to see what the ZL1 1LE will do.
https://blog.caranddriver.com/report-chevrolet-camaro-getting-the-corvettes-seven-speed-manual-for-2019/
So when are you getting one, Cougs? Live a little.
I can't deny the capability but can't get past the image and looks (yet).
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on January 26, 2018, 08:50:07 AM
So when are you getting one, Cougs? Live a little.
I can't deny the capability but can't get past the image and looks (yet).
Big things are coming.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 26, 2018, 08:59:06 AM
Big things are coming.
:rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
:cheers:
Lol I'll believe it when I see it
Quote from: GoCougs on January 26, 2018, 08:59:06 AM
Big things are coming.
As in, you're telling us at midnight, or like CarPlay for Mazdas?
Quote from: GoCougs on January 26, 2018, 08:59:06 AM
Big things are coming.
I think you should get one and relive your Party-maro days.... :lol:
Quote from: MrH on January 27, 2018, 09:29:12 AM
As in, you're telling us at midnight, or like CarPlay for Mazdas?
Not quite at midnight, but things are in motion.
Quote from: Laconian on January 27, 2018, 07:31:21 PM
TRIGGERED
Lol all the old guys on the Miata forums are pissed at him.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 27, 2018, 03:36:28 PM
Not quite at midnight, but things are in motion.
Your growing a mullet?
Quote from: GoCougs on January 27, 2018, 03:36:28 PM
Not quite at midnight, but things are in motion.
You need to get a 'maro and grow a mullet. And then you can reprise the races you used to do on the back road in your town. You could work that into your next high school reunion. :devil:
Written review of the refreshed Mustang vs Camaro is out on MT:
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2018/2018-chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le-vs-2018-ford-mustang-gt-performance-pack-comparison/
Ouch, MT panned the new GT PP pretty hard vs the 1LE. Maybe they should have compared it to a regular SS or something, considerable price gap be damned. The revised 5.0 sounds pretty great though.
I can't get over the 2018 Mustang's front end. It looked great before - now it's horrible.
And it's a fat pig now! Over 100 lbs fatter than the 1LE. Oof.
Quote from: dazzleman on January 29, 2018, 07:54:23 PM
You need to get a 'maro and grow a mullet. And then you can reprise the races you used to do on the back road in your town. You could work that into your next high school reunion. :devil:
Bad decisions = good stories. FWIW I drive that road all the time, albeit a lot calmer (and w/out knucklehead friends)...
Quote from: Xer0 on January 29, 2018, 10:33:50 PM
Written review of the refreshed Mustang vs Camaro is out on MT:
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2018/2018-chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le-vs-2018-ford-mustang-gt-performance-pack-comparison/
Ouch, MT panned the new GT PP pretty hard vs the 1LE. Maybe they should have compared it to a regular SS or something, considerable price gap be damned. The revised 5.0 sounds pretty great though.
True, the PP2 is the better match, but that doesn't sidestep the reality that the S550 chassis is 5-10 years behind the Alpha; the $64k GT350R barely outguns the $44k SS 1LE.
Quote from: Xer0 on January 29, 2018, 10:33:50 PM
Written review of the refreshed Mustang vs Camaro is out on MT:
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2018/2018-chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le-vs-2018-ford-mustang-gt-performance-pack-comparison/
Ouch, MT panned the new GT PP pretty hard vs the 1LE. Maybe they should have compared it to a regular SS or something, considerable price gap be damned. The revised 5.0 sounds pretty great though.
Mustang's suspension tuning, even with the performance pack, is on the soft side. The ride/handling balance is actually quite good with that suspension, even without the magnetic dampers. Even on the rough roads around here it doesn't beat you up. I think my Mazda3's suspension was more harsh. The Ford's biggest detriment, however, is that it's out-tired by the Camaro. The Chevy has 30 mm (that's over an inch) more tire front and rear. Its fronts are wider than the Ford's rears.
Also, lol at them asserting that the Camaro's stopping distances are due to better brakes and not tires not long after they say that the Camaro can't match the Mustang in a burnout competition because the Camaro's tires are too sticky. Both cars have more than enough brake to lock all 4 tires. If one stops well shorter than the other, it's because the tire are able to apply more force to the road before skidding.
Chevy built the better performance car, particularly when it comes to chassis tuning. And they know how to spec appropriately sized tires. Too bad that, as a car you might drive to work everyday, it has some pretty glaring flaws. The visibility is horrendous. The trunk opening renders what space is there of limited use (good luck loading a decent sized suitcase, I can load a bicycle into my trunk). And interior storage is nearly non-existent. Reminds me of the MR-S vs NB Miata. The Toyota stomped the Miata in every performance measure, but the Miata was the one you actually could drive every day or take on a road trip.
If Cougs is serious he's gonna get a rude awakening about daily drivability. The Camaro is bigger than his G and less practical than a Z.... all for performance he will never use at a track or learn to properly deploy.
Quote from: GoCougs on January 29, 2018, 11:51:18 PM
Bad decisions = good stories. FWIW I drive that road all the time, albeit a lot calmer (and w/out knucklehead friends)...
When I make it out there, we can go for a drive down that road and I'll play the role of the knucklehead friend... :lol:
Quote from: dazzleman on January 30, 2018, 06:29:28 AM
When I make it out there, we can go for a drive down that road and I'll play the role of the knucklehead friend... :lol:
Todd was actually driving IIRC, so that's a big role to fill ;).
Quote from: GoCougs on February 02, 2018, 04:31:56 PM
Todd was actually driving IIRC, so that's a big role to fill ;).
Was he the dude who got the Party-maro airborne? Those would be big shoes to fill. I don't think I could pull that off! Nor would I want to I another guy's car. :lol:
Can't wait to see the new Gougsmobile. Anything less than a Camaro SS and I will be crushed. Fingers crossed for it to be a 1LE (now that he is pulling in that google money).
Googlers tend to drive pretty boring cars.
Some flashes of brilliance, but nothing like the Microsoft parking lot, which IMO had a much more pronounced social climbing culture. I saw a McLaren F1 at MSFT when I was an intern. And oh so many Boxsters and 911s.
Google is full of left-brained geeks who buy cars based on spreadsheets, a la Morris Minor.
Quote from: Laconian on February 02, 2018, 07:50:05 PM
Googlers tend to drive pretty boring cars.
Some flashes of brilliance, but nothing like the Microsoft parking lot, which IMO had a much more pronounced social climbing culture. I saw a McLaren F1 at MSFT when I was an intern. And oh so many Boxsters and 911s.
Google is full of left-brained geeks who buy cars based on spreadsheets, a la Morris Minor.
My director drives an old Prius. I'd guess he earns close to 7 figures.
There's a VP who is a serious car nut, though. When the McLaren 12C came out, he bought one, then when the 12C Spyder came out he upgraded to that. He hangs out on car forums too. This guy: http://supercars.agent4stars.com/power-cars/benjamin-sloss-car-collection/
Quote from: Laconian on February 02, 2018, 07:50:05 PM
Googlers tend to drive pretty boring cars.
Some flashes of brilliance, but nothing like the Microsoft parking lot, which IMO had a much more pronounced social climbing culture. I saw a McLaren F1 at MSFT when I was an intern. And oh so many Boxsters and 911s.
Google is full of left-brained geeks who buy cars based on spreadsheets, a la Morris Minor.
Cougs is not going to be the typical Googler.... :lol:
Hopefully he doesn't get taken out like that guy who wrote the goofy article about gender imbalances
Quote from: afty on February 02, 2018, 08:12:23 PM
My director drives an old Prius. I'd guess he earns close to 7 figures.
There's a VP who is a serious car nut, though. When the McLaren 12C came out, he bought one, then when the 12C Spyder came out he upgraded to that. He hangs out on car forums too. This guy: http://supercars.agent4stars.com/power-cars/benjamin-sloss-car-collection/
Holy shit, what a stable of cars!
There's a "drivers" mailing list that has all sorts of chatter on get togethers and driving events... totally irrelevant to me, being in a remote office. :(
Kirkland and Seattle are veritable hotbeds of unthusiasm. The features that get people hot and bothered here are electrification and adaptive cruise control. There is a thread that keeps getting bumped, "WHY DO YOU GUYS KEEP SLAMMING INTO MY DOOR?" with pictures of dents and chipped paint. It makes me afraid to bring my Miata to work. :mask:
Big Things are still coming but no longer WRT this thread. I was going to buy a (used) 6G ZL1 and keep the G37 as the daily/beater, but after a lot of consideration (roads are wet here for 6 mos out of the year, and long story, but a faster car is not a good idea for me ATM), I am full of 'SPIN disappoint.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2018, 02:08:30 PM
Big Things are still coming but no longer WRT this thread. I was going to buy a (used) 6G ZL1 and keep the G37 as the daily/beater, but after a lot of consideration (roads are wet here for 6 mos out of the year, and long story, but a faster car is not a good idea for me ATM), I am full of 'SPIN disappoint.
What are you going to do? Just keep the G37? Why is a faster car a bad idea now (as opposed to any other time)?
When do you start at Google?
I say you go find a used C7 Z06
Lol. If I didn't drive my car when the roads were wet, it would literally not get driven.
Quote from: dazzleman on February 04, 2018, 02:31:30 PM
What are you going to do? Just keep the G37? Why is a faster car a bad idea now (as opposed to any other time)?
When do you start at Google?
No, the G37 will go away. I test drove "It" yesterday. It's nothing too exciting but I can't deny that it's the best-available do-all vehicle for me at this time, despite it being way overpriced. Oh, well. There's a mix of options I want that are apparently not entirely common but I don't want to order it new from the factory. It's a bit of a long story, but faster is just not good for me ATM. I need something calmer and lower key.
I start Tuesday 2/20.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 04, 2018, 02:34:49 PM
I say you go find a used C7 Z06
I think the Camaro ZL1 is the better car, and in general have always preferred Camaros to Corvettes.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2018, 02:37:54 PM
No, the G37 will go away. I test drove "It" yesterday. It's nothing too exciting but I can't deny that it's the best-available do-all vehicle for me at this time, despite it being way overpriced. Oh, well. There's a mix of options I want that are apparently not entirely common but I don't want to order it new from the factory. It's a bit of a long story, but faster is just not good for me ATM. I need something calmer and lower key.
I start Tuesday 2/20.
Good luck at Google man. I'd be interested to hear your choice when you're ready to reveal it.
Will review after purchase, but it may take a bit of time to find the model I want.
Give some hints- let's play 21 questions. It's so lame when people hide their potential purchases on an online forum
Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2018, 02:45:20 PM
Will review after purchase, but it may take a bit of time to find the model I want.
What year is the G37? How many miles do you have on it?
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 04, 2018, 02:45:49 PM
Give some hints- let's play 21 questions. It's so lame when people hide their potential purchases on an online forum
VagueSPINning is indeed super lame. It's more I don't want to jinx it and then look like an idiot if I change my mind.
Quote from: dazzleman on February 04, 2018, 02:51:15 PM
What year is the G37? How many miles do you have on it?
2011 w/133,500 miles. Trade in is only about $6k.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2018, 02:59:40 PM
VagueSPINning is indeed super lame. It's more I don't want to jinx it and then look like an idiot if I change my mind.
No one would give a shit. Besides it would be something to discuss. I 150% get why you wouldn't do it IRL but on an internet forum, what difference does it make?
Question 1: German?
Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2018, 03:04:41 PM
2011 w/133,500 miles. Trade in is only about $6k.
Holy fuck, you drive a lot, man. Almost 20,000 miles per year.
Quote from: CALL_911 on February 04, 2018, 03:10:05 PM
No one would give a shit. Besides it would be something to discuss. I 150% get why you wouldn't do it IRL but on an internet forum, what difference does it make?
Question 1: German?
I dunno... Will cut to the chase...
Came down to B9 Audi A4 Allroad vs. B9 S4, and I'm going with the former. Great ride quality, excellent NVH isolation, DCT is quite slick, has the ground clearance and wheel/tire size fit for all the snow and dirt road driving I do. Performance is good enough. Just couldn't talk my self into a SUV, even the performance variety. Way overpriced though. Jesus, the mid-level models the dealer had on the lot approached $50k MSRP and the Prestige w/cold weather package that I want is $54k MSRP.
The only surprise is it's smaller inside than expected - even a bit tighter than the G.
Expensive, but they're sweet. For what its worth, my family's experience with hanging on to old German cars has been pretty good. You can't go wrong with the allroad.
I know it's not really your thing, but would you consider an E400 wagon?
Also I know it's outdated compared to the Audi, but you'd probably be able to get an incredible deal on a 330i wagon. We got a very good deal on my mom's 328i wagon.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2018, 03:20:38 PM
I dunno... Will cut to the chase...
Came down to B9 Audi A4 Allroad vs. B9 S4, and I'm going with the former. Great ride quality, excellent NVH isolation, DCT is quite slick, has the ground clearance and wheel/tire size fit for all the snow and dirt road driving I do. Performance is good enough. Just couldn't talk my self into a SUV, even the performance variety. Way overpriced though. Jesus, the mid-level models the dealer had on the lot approached $50k MSRP and the Prestige w/cold weather package that I want is $54k MSRP.
The only surprise is it's smaller inside than expected - even a bit tighter than the G.
You're coming over into Audi world. Mine is a really fun car to drive. Good luck with the transaction.
I need the ground clearance plus the E Class is pretty huge (and even more overpriced - starts at $63k)
Honestly in your shoes, I'd go allroad and not look back. It's a great choice
Yeah, I'll be fine with the Allroad. I have to travel for orientation and then to visit various sights, so probably not till April or so that I can get back to it.
Pretty sure PTM has a wet mode.
(http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2016/12/2017-Chevrolet-Camaro-ZL1-burnout-01.jpg)
EDIT: Just saw the other posts. Allroad is ok, but it's no CRV
Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2018, 03:20:38 PM
I dunno... Will cut to the chase...
Came down to B9 Audi A4 Allroad vs. B9 S4, and I'm going with the former. Great ride quality, excellent NVH isolation, DCT is quite slick, has the ground clearance and wheel/tire size fit for all the snow and dirt road driving I do. Performance is good enough. Just couldn't talk my self into a SUV, even the performance variety. Way overpriced though. Jesus, the mid-level models the dealer had on the lot approached $50k MSRP and the Prestige w/cold weather package that I want is $54k MSRP.
The only surprise is it's smaller inside than expected - even a bit tighter than the G.
Nice choice. I'd go test some compact SUVs though. Some of them offer greater space (you bike a lot IIRC) and are fun to drive as well.
Also: make a thread. It's fun. The spin will have you feeling guilty about anything even close to the G in no time.
Quote from: MX793 on February 04, 2018, 02:36:57 PM
Lol. If I didn't drive my car when the roads were wet, it would literally not get driven.
:lol:
Just get an SS if you're too scared of the big boy ZL1.
Allroads are awesome if you buy and hold for the long term. Residuals aren't great.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 04, 2018, 03:20:38 PM
I dunno... Will cut to the chase...
Came down to B9 Audi A4 Allroad vs. B9 S4, and I'm going with the former. Great ride quality, excellent NVH isolation, DCT is quite slick, has the ground clearance and wheel/tire size fit for all the snow and dirt road driving I do. Performance is good enough. Just couldn't talk my self into a SUV, even the performance variety. Way overpriced though. Jesus, the mid-level models the dealer had on the lot approached $50k MSRP and the Prestige w/cold weather package that I want is $54k MSRP.
The only surprise is it's smaller inside than expected - even a bit tighter than the G.
Test drive a CRV.
I wouldn't recommend the CRV for someone who does a lot of skiing or otherwise drives in an area with a lot of snow. The AWD is ok for low speed starts or just putt-putting around town after snowfall, but there are a lot better options if you're going to be out on the highways in slick stuff. You can use it in a pinch, but the system is heavily FWD-biased and doesn't cut in well at speed.
Here we go again!
Quote from: Tave on February 05, 2018, 10:21:31 AM
I wouldn't recommend the CRV for someone who does a lot of skiing or otherwise drives in an area with a lot of snow. The AWD is ok for low speed starts or just putt-putting around town after snowfall, but there are a lot better options if you're going to be out on the highways in slick stuff. You can use it in a pinch, but the system is heavily FWD-biased and doesn't cut in well at speed.
The G seems to have met his needs fairly well, the CRV would do so better/more easily.
Quote from: Lebowski on February 05, 2018, 10:24:15 AM
The G seems to have met his needs fairly well, the CRV would do so better/more easily.
The G has a more robust AWD system that is capable of sustained periods of dual transaxle activity and an option to lock it on a 50/50 split. The Honda can only send 40%, can't lock the split, and can't cope with extended use. It's fine for moderate snow but it's not the ideal setup for more heavy conditions. Coug's ATTESA was a better winter drivetrain and the QUATTRO would be even better still. Not that you couldn't make due with the CRV, or that it doesn't have plenty of advantages over the Infiniti/Audi, but the AWD setup isn't one of them.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 05, 2018, 10:23:14 AM
Here we go again!
How did we go from 650 HP Camaros to a damn CRV???? :facepalm:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 05, 2018, 11:10:41 AM
How did we go from 650 HP Camaros to a damn CRV???? :facepalm:
2018 is the year of the CR-V World Takeover!
Srsly wtf u gaiz.
Just gonna dump this here to redeem the thread. Haven't even watched it. :lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubd1nEbDaZg
I am disappoint about Gougs not getting the Camaro, but an Audi Allroad is a pretty cool substitute. :ohyeah:
Quote from: Tave on February 05, 2018, 11:07:29 AM
The G has a more robust AWD system that is capable of sustained periods of dual transaxle activity and an option to lock it on a 50/50 split. The Honda can only send 40%, can't lock the split, and can't cope with extended use. It's fine for moderate snow but it's not the ideal setup for more heavy conditions. Coug's ATTESA was a better winter drivetrain and the QUATTRO would be even better still. Not that you couldn't make due with the CRV, or that it doesn't have plenty of advantages over the Infiniti/Audi, but the AWD setup isn't one of them.
I didn't say the AWD system is the best but the total package is imo. Also note before the G he had an accord, and seemed happy as far as that meeting his needs as well.
I was just thinking about it... weird that there are no serious Japanese alternatives to the X3/Q5 etc. Next RDX could be a compelling choice if Cougs is tough enough to look past the soccer mom image. I am not
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 05, 2018, 12:48:16 PM
I was just thinking about it... weird that there are no serious Japanese alternatives to the X3/Q5 etc. Next RDX could be a compelling choice if Cougs is tough enough to look past the soccer mom image. I am not
Lexus RX outsells them both in the US :huh:
CR-V is definitely one of the best vehicles on sale, at any price, right up there with the Accord, Camry, and a few others. It's not for everyone however. I want something that at least (about) matches the G in performance. The Allroad doesn't quite cut it, but it's close, once the the responsiveness of the DSG is taken into account.
Quote from: 68_427 on February 04, 2018, 04:58:23 PM
Pretty sure PTM has a wet mode.
(http://st.automobilemag.com/uploads/sites/11/2016/12/2017-Chevrolet-Camaro-ZL1-burnout-01.jpg)
EDIT: Just saw the other posts. Allroad is ok, but it's no CRV
I'm sure it does. But wet roads are still a significant detriment to performance. The G, at about the same weight with just half the power and AWD, moves around a notable amount in the wet.
HTF hard are some of you people driving on public streets that a wet road surface forces you to significantly back down your pace? Only place I've ever driven where a wet road made things slick enough that I had to be mindful of it was the American Southwest (Arizona, New Mexico, West Texas, SoCal), where it seldom rains and there gets to be a lot of oily buildup on the road that turns into a oil slick when it first gets wet. Anyplace where it rains regularly, the roads just aren't that slick when wet save for the very initial dampening after a prolonged dry spell (5-6 days). My car, on the OE Pirellis (which were rated worst in class for wet grip) would still pull at least .7g of lateral grip in the wet before they even hinted at slipping. I have recorded data of the car pulling .8g at an auto-x in a heavy rain with standing water over much of the surface. That's a lot of lateral acceleration to be pulling on the street. Like >45 mph around a 200 ft radius bend (which would typically carry a 20 mph recommended maximum speed). That's the kind of lateral G that would result in any loose items in the car getting flung into the doors.
Quote from: MX793 on February 05, 2018, 04:20:29 PM
HTF hard are some of you people driving on public streets that a wet road surface forces you to significantly back down your pace? Only place I've ever driven where a wet road made things slick enough that I had to be mindful of it was the American Southwest (Arizona, New Mexico, West Texas, SoCal), where it seldom rains and there gets to be a lot of oily buildup on the road that turns into a oil slick when it first gets wet. Anyplace where it rains regularly, the roads just aren't that slick when wet save for the very initial dampening after a prolonged dry spell (5-6 days). My car, on the OE Pirellis (which were rated worst in class for wet grip) would still pull at least .7g of lateral grip in the wet before they even hinted at slipping. I have recorded data of the car pulling .8g at an auto-x in a heavy rain with standing water over much of the surface. That's a lot of lateral acceleration to be pulling on the street. Like >45 mph around a 200 ft radius bend (which would typically carry a 20 mph recommended maximum speed). That's the kind of lateral G that would result in any loose items in the car getting flung into the doors.
:hesaid: Maybe I'm getting old but these guys seem like some hard chargers! :lol:
Here in CA the road surface gets really slick when it rains, because it rains so rarely. It's pretty easy to break traction.
ITs not so much about steady state speed as it is what happens when you apply power. IF you are rounding a curve at a reasonable 0.3-0.4g and you give it some gas in a lowish gear you can def break traction no problem.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 06, 2018, 12:16:05 AM
ITs not so much about steady state speed as it is what happens when you apply power. IF you are rounding a curve at a reasonable 0.3-0.4g and you give it some gas in a lowish gear you can def break traction no problem.
There is very little steady state in Auto-x. IME, if you live someplace that gets frequent rainfall, the roads just aren't that slick. You still have at least 70% of the grip you have in the dry. If you are having to back it down when the roads are wet, that implies you regularly drive at 7/10ths+ on the street. That's pretty damn aggressive for "normal" driving. Especially in a modern, performance-oriented vehicle like a G, 3-series, etc.
Quote from: MX793 on February 06, 2018, 04:41:10 AM
There is very little steady state in Auto-x. IME, if you live someplace that gets frequent rainfall, the roads just aren't that slick. You still have at least 70% of the grip you have in the dry. If you are having to back it down when the roads are wet, that implies you regularly drive at 7/10ths+ on the street. That's pretty damn aggressive for "normal" driving. Especially in a modern, performance-oriented vehicle like a G, 3-series, etc.
Sporty once claimed he goes through brake pads every ~10k miles. He's super aggro.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on February 05, 2018, 11:23:25 AM
I am disappoint about Gougs not getting the Camaro, but an Audi Allroad is a pretty cool substitute. :ohyeah:
Way cooler than a Camaro, to be honest. The Camaro is a tryhard car.
Quote from: Raza on February 06, 2018, 09:10:15 AM
Way cooler than a Camaro, to be honest. The Camaro is a tryhard car.
A4 Allroad = poser class, and by extension is also a try hard car.
Better to try hard and poser fail, than.... something something :lol:
Trying be cool is not cool. Therefore the CRV is the coolest thing on the road.
CRV is on a roll... Didn't get selected on an enthusiast level for C&D's 10 best and didn't win on Cars.com is a comparo based on practicality
Quote from: r0tor on February 06, 2018, 10:34:19 AM
CRV is on a roll... Didn't get selected on an enthusiast level for C&D's 10 best and didn't win on Cars.com is a comparo based on practicality
The CRVenvy is strong in this one.
Quote from: Raza on February 06, 2018, 09:10:15 AM
Way cooler than a Camaro, to be honest. The Camaro is a tryhard car.
:nutty:
Quote from: r0tor on February 06, 2018, 10:34:19 AM
CRV is on a roll... Didn't get selected on an enthusiast level for C&D's 10 best and didn't win on Cars.com is a comparo based on practicality
Did the RX-8 ever win any 10-best enthusiast or practicality comparos? My guess is a hard no. Silly logic.
Quote from: MX793 on February 05, 2018, 04:20:29 PM
HTF hard are some of you people driving on public streets that a wet road surface forces you to significantly back down your pace? Only place I've ever driven where a wet road made things slick enough that I had to be mindful of it was the American Southwest (Arizona, New Mexico, West Texas, SoCal), where it seldom rains and there gets to be a lot of oily buildup on the road that turns into a oil slick when it first gets wet. Anyplace where it rains regularly, the roads just aren't that slick when wet save for the very initial dampening after a prolonged dry spell (5-6 days). My car, on the OE Pirellis (which were rated worst in class for wet grip) would still pull at least .7g of lateral grip in the wet before they even hinted at slipping. I have recorded data of the car pulling .8g at an auto-x in a heavy rain with standing water over much of the surface. That's a lot of lateral acceleration to be pulling on the street. Like >45 mph around a 200 ft radius bend (which would typically carry a 20 mph recommended maximum speed). That's the kind of lateral G that would result in any loose items in the car getting flung into the doors.
When it rained in GA I used to get blocks ahead of people I was next to when the light turned green. In my super streetfighter 18yr-old Legacy.
Quote from: AutobahnSHO on February 06, 2018, 12:59:17 PM
When it rained in GA I used to get blocks ahead of people I was next to when the light turned green. In my super streetfighter 18yr-old Legacy.
Were the cars around you spinning their tires and struggling for traction, or were they just afraid of driving in the rain?
Quote from: MX793 on February 06, 2018, 01:12:20 PM
Were the cars around you spinning their tires and struggling for traction, or were they just afraid of driving in the rain?
I'm betting they all melted. Like the wicked witch of the west
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 06, 2018, 12:32:10 PM
Did the RX-8 ever win any 10-best enthusiast or practicality comparos? My guess is a hard no. Silly logic.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/2005-10best-cars-2005-mazda-rx-8-page-11
:golfclap:
Quote from: r0tor on February 06, 2018, 05:36:32 PM
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/2005-10best-cars-2005-mazda-rx-8-page-11
:golfclap:
Congratulations on your magazine win.
Quote from: giant_mtb on February 06, 2018, 06:04:39 PM
Congratulations on your magazine win.
Many more comparo wins I can serve up if you want
Quote from: r0tor on February 06, 2018, 06:14:36 PM
Many more comparo wins I can serve up if you want
...ask me if I care. I don't get triggered by people's choice of vehicles. You proved me wrong, move along.
Alrighty then :huh:
Camaros anyone????
https://youtu.be/XP6fdBHSdi0
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 05, 2018, 11:10:41 AM
How did we go from 650 HP Camaros to a damn CRV???? :facepalm:
Just the question I wanted to ask!
No one needs more than a CR-V. There's simply no rational case for that. It's been settled.
Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on February 06, 2018, 08:00:31 PM
No one needs more than a CR-V. There's simply no rational case for that. It's been settled.
:lol:
My buddy is on his third CR-V in a row. But he has gotten very staid. He used to drive sporty cars and take his speedometer up to 3 digits (in mph). Now he's a boring driver and the CR-V works for him. It's not a car for an enthusiast though.
Quote from: dazzleman on February 06, 2018, 08:15:27 PM
:lol:
My buddy is on his third CR-V in a row. But he has gotten very staid. He used to drive sporty cars and take his speedometer up to 3 digits (in mph). Now he's a boring driver and the CR-V works for him. It's not a car for an enthusiast though.
Sounds like a smart guy.
He needs the room to carry his blow up dolls.........
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 06, 2018, 07:10:07 PM
Camaros anyone????
https://youtu.be/XP6fdBHSdi0
Literally one of the best cars in the world, at any price, in any segment. Just wished it fit within my life.
Quote from: GoCougs on February 06, 2018, 09:19:46 PM
Literally one of the best cars in the world, at any price, in any segment. Just wished it fit within my life.
Yeah! GM really kicked the world in the ass with this one.....
Quote from: dazzleman on February 06, 2018, 08:15:27 PM
:lol:
My buddy is on his third CR-V in a row. But he has gotten very staid. He used to drive sporty cars and take his speedometer up to 3 digits (in mph). Now he's a boring driver and the CR-V works for him. It's not a car for an enthusiast though.
I think I've hit three digits three times in my life. Maybe four. First time was in the '96 Monte Z34. Rest were A4.
Quote from: r0tor on February 06, 2018, 06:14:36 PM
Many more comparo wins I can serve up if you want
Did it a lot of good
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/mazda-rx-8-sales-figures/
Quote from: r0tor on February 06, 2018, 06:14:36 PM
Many more comparo wins I can serve up if you want
Did it a lot of good
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/mazda-rx-8-sales-figures/
Just like everything on the Alpha platform
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 07, 2018, 06:26:28 AM
Did it a lot of good
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/mazda-rx-8-sales-figures/
Yeah, but those 80 people in 2012 were
complete poseurs enthusiasts!
Quote from: Lebowski on February 07, 2018, 07:06:51 AM
Yeah, but those 80 people in 2012 were complete poseurs enthusiasts!
Amazing how new car sales drop off after the car is no longer made. Your a genious.
Actually, had I known how bad affordable cars were about to get, I would have bought a new one then
Quote from: r0tor on February 07, 2018, 10:26:02 AM
Amazing how new car sales drop off after the car is no longer made. Your a
To 80? 8-0? I kept thinking this has got to be units x100 or x10 or did I miss that?
Quote
Actually, had I known how bad affordable cars were about to get, I would have bought a new one then
You'd be doing yourself huge favor to drop the poseur facade and get a Tucson or a CRV, and just do a driving school the once every 6 years you need your
enthusiast! fix.
Quote from: r0tor on February 07, 2018, 10:26:02 AM
Amazing how new car sales drop off after the car is no longer made. Your a genious.
If it's such a great car, why'd they stop making it?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 07, 2018, 11:21:35 AM
If it's such a great car, why'd they stop making it?
Euro Emissions...
Quote from: Lebowski on February 07, 2018, 10:52:40 AM
You'd be doing yourself huge favor to drop the poseur facade and get a Tucson or a CRV, and just do a driving school the once every 6 years you need your enthusiast! fix.
I'd rather shoot myself then do something that stupid and a clear indicator of giving up on life
Quote from: r0tor on February 07, 2018, 11:53:36 AM
Euro Emissions...
How did the Euro emissions in 2010 chop US sales down by 80% from 2004 to 2007?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 07, 2018, 11:57:56 AM
How did the Euro emissions in 2010 chop US sales down by 80% from 2004 to 2007?
Euro collusion/hacking!!!
Maybe they saw into the future and did not want to buy a car that could not pass emissions. That's definitely a high priority for rotary car owners
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on February 07, 2018, 11:57:56 AM
How did the Euro emissions in 2010 chop US sales down by 80% from 2004 to 2007?
Euro emissions killed any chance of another generation. Sporty coupes tend to not do very well after a few years of not having a refresh... Thought that was pretty obvious
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 06, 2018, 11:49:42 AM
:nutty:
You know it is. It'll never be a Corvette and it'll never be a Mustang. And it so desperately wants to be.
Quote from: Raza on February 07, 2018, 01:28:09 PM
You know it is. It'll never be a Corvette and it'll never be a Mustang. And it so desperately wants to be.
It's better than a Mustang and It has never tried to be a Corvette........
Quote from: r0tor on February 07, 2018, 11:54:43 AM
I'd rather shoot myself then do something that stupid and a clear indicator of giving up on life
So, you're gonna do both?
than, then
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 07, 2018, 03:12:04 PM
It's better than a Mustang and It has never tried to be a Corvette........
It's better than the Corvette in some ways too!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 07, 2018, 03:12:04 PM
It's better than a Mustang and It has never tried to be a Corvette........
Quote from: CaminoRacer on February 07, 2018, 03:27:01 PM
It's better than the Corvette in some ways too!
Hells, yes. Simply look to what the lowly $43k SS 1LE has done. BMW had to stitch together a $140k M4 to beat it, and barely so.
The Camaro is literally one of the best cars on sale today, at any price, and in any class. The Mustang is good but not in that company, and debatable if the Corvette is.
Quote from: r0tor on February 07, 2018, 11:54:43 AM
I'd rather shoot myself then do something that stupid and a clear indicator of giving up on life
If your car is all you're living for you've given up already :huh:
Quote from: GoCougs on February 07, 2018, 04:14:11 PM
Hells, yes. Simply look to what the lowly $43k SS 1LE has done. BMW had to stitch together a $140k M4 to beat it, and barely so.
The Camaro is literally one of the best cars on sale today, at any price, and in any class. The Mustang is good but not in that company, and debatable if the Corvette is.
The big money Vettes (Z06 and ZR1) definitely punch waaaay above their weight class! But at that price point they lose their Band For The Buck advantage for us meager enthusiast!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 07, 2018, 04:52:50 PM
The big money Vettes (Z06 and ZR1) definitely punch waaaay above their weight class! But at that price point they lose their Band For The Buck advantage for us meager enthusiast!
Yup!
Quote from: GoCougs on February 07, 2018, 04:14:11 PM
The Camaro is literally one of the best cars on sale today, at any price, and in any class. The Mustang is good but not in that company, and debatable if the Corvette is.
It's certainly the king when it comes to performance/dollar, I'll give you that. And not just straight line performance like previous Camaros. It's got the handling chops to play with the big boys, too.
It really has developed into a great car.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on February 07, 2018, 03:12:04 PM
It's better than a Mustang and It has never tried to be a Corvette........
Three words:
Michael Bay's Transformers.
But for real, being good and being a sweaty tryhard aren't mutually exclusive. The Camaro can be as good as it can be, and it'll still never be a Corvette and it'll never be a Mustang, and it'll always have no fucking windows.
All I can think when I see them is "young thug" cuz that's the appearance of the only people driving them around here. :huh:
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/09/2019-chevy-camaro-revealed/#slide-7297561
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on April 09, 2018, 02:11:14 PM
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/09/2019-chevy-camaro-revealed/#slide-7297561
That looks awful. The headlights are too small, vertically, for such a blunt front end. Exaggerates how tall the nose of the car is. The non-V8s are somehow even worse than the SS.
Good move putting the 1LE package on the turbo.
A buddy sent me a front 3/4 picture of that this morning. I literally thought it was the new Mustang at first look. Then I saw the badge.
Sales are already down.... sometimes it's better to leave well enough alone
GROSS
2015 is peak modern Camaro styling IMO.
The Ford Mustang Is Eating the Chevy Camaro's Lunch (https://jalopnik.com/the-ford-mustang-is-eating-the-chevy-camaros-lunch-1828921644)
The Chevrolet Camaro has fallen from glory. After a five year reign over its U.S. sports car kingdom, the Camaro has been quickly usurped by the Ford Mustang—and then by the aging Dodge Challenger. Sales are decreasing by drastic amounts, and it doesn't look like there's going to be change in the near future.
Things started changing around 2014. Trying to find new and innovative ways to stay on top of their game, Chevy opted to redesign the Camaro. People were interested, so why not class things up a bit? Surely, people will be willing to pay more money for a better performing car.
It didn't work. Ford quickly scooped up the customers who couldn't make the jump up to the next rung of the pricing ladder, and Chevy has been suffering the consequences.
In Automotive News, Al Oppenheiser, the chief engineer of the Camaro, voiced his intentions:
"Frankly, [Mustang] have been eating our lunch. The low [transaction prices] of a four-cylinder ... that's where the bulk of the sales are and that's where our pricing strategy needed improvement. We plan to go head to head — and win."
This year, we've seen price cuts across the board in Camaro's products. You're likely to pay about $1000 less for a Camaro 1LS, 1LT, or 2LT as compared to last year's price. And if you were one of the people who really liked the performance-oriented features, there are still going to be models that appeal to you. It's just not going to be Chevy's main marketing scheme anymore.
But that just... doesn't really matter. Karl Brauer, the executive publisher of Autotrader and Kelley Blue Book, said that the Camaro "just doesn't have the personality that the other two cars offer." That's a pretty hard blow. The last thing you want to hear is that your sports car is just plain ol' boring compared to everything else on the market.
The 2.0 Turbo 1LE package is specifically intended to compete with Mustang's EcoBoost, but at a handsome $30,000, it's sitting at the higher end of the price range. More affordable, yes—but still pushing it.
But Steve Majoros, car and crossover marketing director of Chevy, has another idea. He thinks the sheer volume of cars in the low-to-mid part of the sports car market means people are almost overwhelmed with options.
Or it could be the way it looks. :huh:
Recent price increases for the Mustang, plus the price drop for the Camaro, have resulted in near parity last I checked.
The Camaro's issues are deeper than price structure. Day to day usability just isn't as good as its competitors. Outward visibility is awful. The trunk opening is tiny and severely limits what you can load into the trunk. Just this weekend, I took my 2 front wheels/tires that I use for autocross to a tire shop to have the tires flipped on the rims. They measure 10.5 wide x 27.4 diameter. I had to fold the rear seats, but could load these into the trunk without too much struggle. These would never fit through the trunk opening of a Camaro, even if they would have fit in the trunk itself. I'm not sure the large plastic tote I use to carry my autocross kit (numbers, helmet, lunch cooler, pressure gauge, simple tools) would fit through the trunk opening on a Camaro, either.
There's very little storage space in the cabin (much less than competitors) for odds and ends that people frequently keep in their cars.
It's a brilliant performer, but far more compromised as a DD than Mustang or Challenger.
The boring comment is absolute rubbish. Especially if he's saying the Challenger is less boring.
I think the Camaro looks are wearing on people. I think the current one still looks good, but the previous gen? :pee: it's awful. I just see 20 year old, terrible Michael Bay movie.
Could be looks but more than likely it's pricing and utility. The Camaro is far more dedicated to performance, particularly the sports-car kind, than either the Mustang or Challenger, and that will bring with it trade-offs.
TL;DR - Camaro is a world class sports car and the Mustang and Challenger are pretty good GT cars.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 10, 2018, 10:19:01 AM
The boring comment is absolute rubbish. Especially if he's saying the Challenger is less boring.
:lol:
Especially in lower trims, yeah, they haven't aged well.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on September 10, 2018, 10:19:01 AM
The boring comment is absolute rubbish. Especially if he's saying the Challenger is less boring.
:hesaid:
I agree that GM priced the car too damn high. Well spec'd V8s are pricey to say the least. That's why GM was selling leftover 2015 (SS) for 15 Grand off a couple years ago!
The Rustang is just an easier car to look at and live with. GM has a mean case of C&Ditis with a side of a bench racing fetish. An open wheeled race car will kill at the track but nobody wants to deal with that shit on their daily commute. At the end of the day these are still daily drivers.
Plus I feel like the SS is pricey enough that a Stingray is not too far of a leap. Useless back seat aside I'd wager it's more practical and easy to live with than the Camaro too.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on September 10, 2018, 07:39:41 PM
The Rustang is just an easier car to look at and live with. GM has a mean case of C&Ditis with a side of a bench racing fetish. An open wheeled race car will kill at the track but nobody wants to deal with that shit on their daily commute. At the end of the day these are still daily drivers.
Plus I feel like the SS is pricey enough that a Stingray is not too far of a leap. Useless back seat aside I'd wager it's more practical and easy to live with than the Camaro too.
I'd take a slightly used C7 over a new SS any day of the week!
https://www.facebook.com/caranddriver/videos/501597286976713/
I hope this link works. It's a brief history of the Camaro. I would be really tempted to get one of the early ones.
I love those second gen split bumper Camaros......
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on October 07, 2018, 09:25:34 PM
I love those second gen split bumper Camaros......
Next summer you should drive down to Columbus in July when the Goodguys car show is going on and you can get a ride in my dad's!
Quote from: CaminoRacer on October 07, 2018, 10:07:43 PM
Next summer you should drive down to Columbus in July when the Goodguys car show is going on and you can get a ride in my dad's!
Sounds good! I drive down the the big Vette show in May so a second trip in July is no problem!!
A (Slightly) cheaper V8 model. I still don't see the point.....
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27344417/2020-chevrolet-camaro-photos-info/
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on May 02, 2019, 04:36:36 PM
A (Slightly) cheaper V8 model. I still don't see the point.....
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27344417/2020-chevrolet-camaro-photos-info/
Don't see the point!? I want the cheapest V8 model that I can get. Give me a muscle car dammit. Still can't afford $35K, though.
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 02, 2019, 04:41:24 PM
Don't see the point!? I want the cheapest V8 model that I can get. Give me a muscle car dammit. Still can't afford $35K, though.
It's only a couple grand cheaper than the SS (and doesn't have staggered wheels). Why not slash the base price of the SS and call it a day!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on May 02, 2019, 06:34:41 PM
It's only a couple grand cheaper than the SS (and doesn't have staggered wheels). Why not slash the base price of the SS and call it a day!
Eh, just put the V8 in a Spark and charge me $20K. I'll stagger my own wheels. :lol:
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on May 02, 2019, 06:34:41 PM
It's only a couple grand cheaper than the SS (and doesn't have staggered wheels). Why not slash the base price of the SS and call it a day!
I'm gonna take off the stock wheels in favor of 18s anyway, so I'll take the LT1!
(I assume 18s will clear the brakes)
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on May 02, 2019, 06:41:42 PM
Eh, just put the V8 in a Spark and charge me $20K. I'll stagger my own wheels. :lol:
:lol:
It's good that GM tweaked the front end design a bit, but it's still ugly. Pony car fans don't go for Honda/Toyota boy racer weirdness in design. That's why the Challenger is still outselling it.
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on May 02, 2019, 06:34:41 PM
It's only a couple grand cheaper than the SS (and doesn't have staggered wheels). Why not slash the base price of the SS and call it a day!
I'm going to assume there's some other SS level content/hardware that's not there. I get the impression this is a LT trim Camaro with the V8. So I expect it doesn't get the SS's extra chassis bracing, larger brakes, suspension upgrades, etc...
GM was under no delusion that moving the 6th gen Camaro upmarket WRT to the Mustang and Challenger would result in fewer sales.
The Camaro also has fewer fleet sales than either - the Mustang is very popular with rental fleets.
My hunch is the Camaro has equal or better retail market share than the other two (i.e., profitability, which is the name of the game).
Total overall profit is the name of the game and I'd bet the Mustang is comfortably ahead when its all said and done.
Like its Caddy branded Alpha stablemates the Camaro improved things its prospective buyers generally don't give a shit about at the expense of things they do. That it's being outsold (albeit just barely now) by the ancient, massive and ponderous Challenger speaks to this
Quote from: MX793 on May 03, 2019, 08:03:34 AM
I'm going to assume there's some other SS level content/hardware that's not there. I get the impression this is a LT trim Camaro with the V8. So I expect it doesn't get the SS's extra chassis bracing, larger brakes, suspension upgrades, etc...
I'm not sure! The only thing I've read (Performance wise) that's different is the wheel sizes
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on May 06, 2019, 07:27:19 PM
I'm not sure! The only thing I've read (Performance wise) that's different is the wheel sizes
There's no way they are cutting the price that much with wheels and tires. Besides the engine, the main differences between a 1SS and 1LT are the SS's Brembo brakes, extra chassis bracing, and extra coolers. Cutting those is where the cost savings is coming from. The "LT1" trim will basically stack up against the non-PP Mustang in terms of performance hardware. Normal brakes, no extra chassis bracing, no extra coolers, all-season tires...
Quote from: MX793 on May 06, 2019, 07:39:12 PM
There's no way they are cutting the price that much with wheels and tires. Besides the engine, the main differences between a 1SS and 1LT are the SS's Brembo brakes, extra chassis bracing, and extra coolers. Cutting those is where the cost savings is coming from. The "LT1" trim will basically stack up against the non-PP Mustang in terms of performance hardware. Normal brakes, no extra chassis bracing, no extra coolers, all-season tires...
That's true! We shall see...
Not much more info here.....
https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2019/may/0502-camaro.html
Daaaaaamn homie.....
https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/exclusive-seventh-generation-chevrolet-camaro-shelved/
QuoteThe current Camaro, the sixth-generation model, utilizes the dynamic Alpha platform that the Cadillac ATS and CTS utilized. Both are being discontinued, and will be replaced by the Cadillac CT4 and CT5, which utilize an updated version of the Alpha platform, called A2XX. Both the Camaro and the two Cadillac passenger cars mentioned are/will be built at the Lansing Grand River Assembly Plant in central Michigan.
Sources tell us that the Camaro will not transition to the A2XX platform, and 2023 is as far as the vehicle is charted out. Then nothing.
This kind of hiatus happened to the storied nameplate previously, where the last of the fourth-generation Camaros rolled off the assembly line in 2002. All was quiet until 2006, when Chevrolet revived the Camaro name on a concept car, which left people ecstatic. That concept car eventually came to be the extremely popular fifth-generation Camaro, which restarted Camaro production in 2009, the year GM filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
The Camaro may win comparos, but the Rustang remains the better car, which is all that really matters for the bottom line. Maybe GM will get it right next time...
GM is a great engineering company but horrible at project management.
So how is this horrible project management? It's more a product management issue. And really, given the rapidly changing automotive landscape, who can blame GM if the Camaro's shelf life is limited? Ford didn't change with the times and is now sort of a train wreck - whether that's a failed car business, being way way behind in EVs and autonomous driving or simply failing to build a car as good or better than the Camaro (nothing new).
By project i meant product.
Too bad if it's true. Ford will no longer be inspired to make a better Mustang.
Pricing killed the Camaro's sales!
(https://preview.redd.it/t9qxumypal631.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=11b04022ecc11ae45b743d81aaf8a8e6d059f156)
(https://www.constructiongear.com/media/catalog/product/cache/7/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/P/W/PWHP100_-00_Black_Front_Pyramex-Lead-Head-Passive-Welding-Helmet-WHP100.jpg)
Quote from: GoCougs on June 25, 2019, 03:18:19 PM
So how is this horrible project management? It's more a product management issue. And really, given the rapidly changing automotive landscape, who can blame GM if the Camaro's shelf life is limited? Ford didn't change with the times and is now sort of a train wreck - whether that's a failed car business, being way way behind in EVs and autonomous driving or simply failing to build a car as good or better than the Camaro (nothing new).
Ford and Dodge have no problems selling pony cars in the "rapidly changing automotive landscape". And lol @ our resident EV/AV skeptic slamming Ford for being behind in those areas. Isn't that a good thing? And what the hell do they have to do with the Camaro? :wtf:
Bottom line,
for consumers, the Camaro just isn't very good. Especially after that ghastly face "lift". The whole is much less than the sum of the parts.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 26, 2019, 07:14:07 AM
Ford and Dodge have no problems selling pony cars in the "rapidly changing automotive landscape". And lol @ our resident EV/AV skeptic slamming Ford for being behind in those areas. Isn't that a good thing? And what the hell do they have to do with the Camaro? :wtf:
Bottom line, for consumers, the Camaro just isn't very good. Especially after that ghastly face "lift". The whole is much less than the sum of the parts.
GM not changing the styling on the 6th Gen was a mistake also! Most people can't tell a 5th from a 6th Gen car! Along with the increase in price Consumers went to Ford and Dodge dealerships to get the freshly restyled Mustang or the Cool looking (Long in the tooth) Challenger! I can't say I blame them!
This whole situation kinda reflects whats happening to Cadillac! GM build a car to best the German performance benchmarks (but prices the car too high) and nobody buys it......
I really dig the Camaro in concept, but just can't justify buying one. I like my current car more as a daily driver (not AS fun to drive, but still pretty fun and way more practical) and I don't have the ambition/desire to have a second car.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 26, 2019, 08:52:20 AM
I really dig the Camaro in concept, but just can't justify buying one. I like my current car more as a daily driver (not AS fun to drive, but still pretty fun and way more practical) and I don't have the ambition/desire to have a second car.
You have a Golf R, right?
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 25, 2019, 01:45:13 PM
Daaaaaamn homie.....
https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/exclusive-seventh-generation-chevrolet-camaro-shelved/
QuoteThe current Camaro, the sixth-generation model, utilizes the dynamic Alpha platform that the Cadillac ATS and CTS utilized. Both are being discontinued, and will be replaced by the Cadillac CT4 and CT5, which utilize an updated version of the Alpha platform, called A2XX. Both the Camaro and the two Cadillac passenger cars mentioned are/will be built at the Lansing Grand River Assembly Plant in central Michigan.
Sources tell us that the Camaro will not transition to the A2XX platform, and 2023 is as far as the vehicle is charted out. Then nothing.
This kind of hiatus happened to the storied nameplate previously, where the last of the fourth-generation Camaros rolled off the assembly line in 2002. All was quiet until 2006, when Chevrolet revived the Camaro name on a concept car, which left people ecstatic. That concept car eventually came to be the extremely popular fifth-generation Camaro, which restarted Camaro production in 2009, the year GM filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
The Camaro may win comparos, but the Rustang remains the better car, which is all that really matters for the bottom line. Maybe GM will get it right next time...
I'm not a Camaro fan by any means and even then this seems like pretty spurious speculation and gossip to me.
I heard from an insider that the 7G is being delayed rather than cancelled.
Again with the C8 becoming a store brand Ferrari, and Radwoodmania at a fever pitch, the time is ripe for them to revive the 3rd gen's looks (NOT the 4th gen... [Michael]NO... GOD NO... NOOOO[/Scott])
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 26, 2019, 10:38:14 AM
I heard from an insider that the 7G is being delayed rather than cancelled.
Again with the C8 becoming a store brand Ferrari, and Radwoodmania at a fever pitch, the time is ripe for them to revive the 3rd gen's looks (NOT the 4th gen... [Michael]NO... GOD NO... NOOOO[/Scott])
IT'S BEAUTIFULLLLLLL
(http://www.hotrodneyhotrods.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/3rd-Gen-Camaro-800x602-800x602.jpg)
z0mg :wub:
The Camaro will go on hiatus, and be resurrected in the year 2045 as a compact electric golf cart with a Vmax of 30 to capitalize on aging Millenial nostalgia. Millenials still won't be able to afford cars.
I don't care for 3rd gens unless they're built really really well. Like this one:
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0014/2943/8517/articles/BBIO-IROC-03_5b394eff-22ec-45d0-b6a5-6668cc165905_2048x.jpg?v=1555482829)
The bulk of 3rd gens were absolute turds, no doubt about it
But if a clean IROC-Z doesn't make your heart swell with patriotism, even just a little, you might be a Communist.
Just needs an LS swap.
I kind of dig the 3rd gens. My dad had an IROC-Z with T Tops when we were kids.
Berlinetta! :wub:
(https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/attachments/electronics/300507d1457323151-1984-camaro-berlinetta-light-berlinetta-red-brick-building.jpg)
^ When I first glanced at that picture I was like "wtf why's it lifted."
Berlinetta! Just like a Ferrari!
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 26, 2019, 01:26:43 PM
Berlinetta! Just like a Ferrari!
Basically the same thing.
Yeah I'd like to see it based on the 3rd/4th Gen styling. Low with a long hood!
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 26, 2019, 11:45:45 AM
But if a clean IROC-Z doesn't make your heart swell with patriotism, even just a little, you might be a Communist.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on June 26, 2019, 11:56:36 AM
Just needs an LS swap.
Yes they do! Love How well the 4th Gen IROCs have aged myself!
Quote from: giant_mtb on June 26, 2019, 01:26:03 PM
^ When I first glanced at that picture I was like "wtf why's it lifted."
Nope, it just always looks like it's accelerating really fast!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on June 26, 2019, 01:37:57 PM
Yeah I'd like to see it based on the 3rd/4th Gen styling. Low with a long hood!
Yes they do! Love How well the 4th Gen IROCs have aged myself!
Wait, did the 4th gen have an IROC version...? I googled it but don't see anything.
I have a soft spot of the looks of the 3rd gen cars. The 4th gens were a little too 90s bulbous, but the 3rd gens had great proportions and clean lines. Way better looking than the Fox Mustangs.
Not sure we'll ever see another liftback coupe like those 80s and 90s Camaros again, though. Structural rigidity was pretty poor.
The IROC-Z could be a looker. Unfortunately GM committed the Ultimate Sin by saddling the 350 w/the auto tragic (because true to form, the Camaro with 350 and M/T was as good or better car than the Corvette):
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2v3JJJl20No/hqdefault.jpg)
M/T wasn't strong enough for all that torque, supposedly.
Peak Camaro however was absolutely the early 2nd gen - preferably the Z/28 with non-split bumper and low profile rear spoiler (1970):
(https://cdn.dealeraccelerate.com/vanguard/1/10331/625003/1920x1440/1970-chevrolet-camaro-z28)
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on June 26, 2019, 06:10:05 PM
M/T wasn't strong enough for all that torque, supposedly.
They put it into the Corvette ;). A ridiculous 4+3 but M/T nonetheless.
I know it was kind of crappy, but this is my favourite Camaro. Childhood memories. I can't help it.
(https://cdn1.mecum.com/auctions/sc0514/sc0514-183284/images/sc0514-183284_1.jpg)
Early Z28s were nice...
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsRm6MKL/1243456006131.jpg)
After 1970, all domestics turned into crap for at least 30 years. Slow recovery until the last 15 years.
Quote from: MX793 on June 26, 2019, 04:01:59 PM
I have a soft spot of the looks of the 3rd gen cars. The 4th gens were a little too 90s bulbous, but the 3rd gens had great proportions and clean lines. Way better looking than the Fox Mustangs.
Not sure we'll ever see another liftback coupe like those 80s and 90s Camaros again, though. Structural rigidity was pretty poor.
Can't be any worse than a current Camaro convertible. If we're gonna go retro let's do it right
Quote from: MX793 on June 26, 2019, 04:01:59 PM
I have a soft spot of the looks of the 3rd gen cars. The 4th gens were a little too 90s bulbous, but the 3rd gens had great proportions and clean lines. Way better looking than the Fox Mustangs.
Not sure we'll ever see another liftback coupe like those 80s and 90s Camaros again, though. Structural rigidity was pretty poor.
I grew to appreciate the looks of the 3rd gen once enough time had passed that the mullet stigma wore off.
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on June 26, 2019, 06:48:05 PM
Can't be any worse than a current Camaro convertible. If we're gonna go retro let's do it right
I would wager that a modern Maro vert is more rigid than the 3rd gen liftbacks by quite a large margin. Drive an old 80s or even 90s liftback. They aren't nearly as rigid as a notchback of the same era without cargo-space-gobbling strut tower braces.
Quote from: MX793 on June 26, 2019, 08:26:14 PM
I would wager that a modern Maro vert is more rigid than the 3rd gen liftbacks by quite a large margin. Drive an old 80s or even 90s liftback. They aren't nearly as rigid as a notchback of the same era without cargo-space-gobbling strut tower braces.
I meant a modern interpretation of the 3rd gen would have to be at least as rigid as the current Camaro vert
3rd gen had a low cowl that I'm not sure the Alpha platform could replicate
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on June 26, 2019, 06:17:17 PM
I know it was kind of crappy, but this is my favourite Camaro. Childhood memories. I can't help it.
(https://cdn1.mecum.com/auctions/sc0514/sc0514-183284/images/sc0514-183284_1.jpg)
I had a '79 - not Z/28 though. Loved it, but it was a pretty awful car.
IMO the best of the later 3rd gen was the '78 Z/28 - no external bumpers (like in your pic), no tacky Trans Am-esque front spoiler and stripes (which started in '79), and curved cockpit-style dash (went to squared-off dash in '79 as well):
(https://cdn.dealeraccelerate.com/fastlane/1/174/11359/1920x1440/1978-chevrolet-camaro)
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 26, 2019, 02:40:15 PM
Wait, did the 4th gen have an IROC version...? I googled it but don't see anything.
My bad! I meant 2nd and 3rd Gen styling! and 3rd Gen IROC!
Quote from: GoCougs on June 26, 2019, 06:12:01 PM
Peak Camaro however was absolutely the early 2nd gen - preferably the Z/28 with non-split bumper and low profile rear spoiler (1970):
(https://cdn.dealeraccelerate.com/vanguard/1/10331/625003/1920x1440/1970-chevrolet-camaro-z28)
This!!!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on June 27, 2019, 05:51:23 AM
My bad! I meant 2nd and 3rd Gen styling! and 3rd Gen IROC!
Oddly enough, while I like the 3rd gen more I don't mind the weird looking 4th gen. I was really keen to see an IROC version. :lol:
Here you go Cougs
(https://st.hotrod.com/uploads/sites/21/2019/04/002-1971-camaro-umi-charlotte.jpg)
Sometimes I wish I was better at identifying classic cars. People say shit like "oh, this is the year with the split bumper and the dual exhaust tips instead of single tips with the tail lights that were slightly oval instead of true circular" and I'm like...okay, damn. :lol:
Quote from: giant_mtb on June 27, 2019, 02:24:25 PM
Sometimes I wish I was better at identifying classic cars. People say shit like "oh, this is the year with the split bumper and the dual exhaust tips instead of single tips with the tail lights that were slightly oval instead of true circular" and I'm like...okay, damn. :lol:
Meh, if it's not something that I learned for an actual reason, I don't think it's worth the time to memorize. Like it makes sense to research vehicles you want to buy. That's why I know that E39s have chrome trim around the window unless it has the sport package, which come with black trim instead.
(https://drivetribe.imgix.net/TKHPg-UOQdSi7rtu2o7puw)
vs.
(http://www.selectgt.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/BMW_M5_Mark-Webber.jpg)
Quote from: giant_mtb on June 27, 2019, 02:24:25 PM
Sometimes I wish I was better at identifying classic cars. People say shit like "oh, this is the year with the split bumper and the dual exhaust tips instead of single tips with the tail lights that were slightly oval instead of true circular" and I'm like...okay, damn. :lol:
Such knowledge is called "trivia" for a reason. Absolutely nothing of benefit has come from me knowing that the only 90-93 Accords with dual air bags were the 92-93 SEs. Nothing at all
Quote from: SJ_GTI on June 27, 2019, 05:58:04 AM
Oddly enough, while I like the 3rd gen more I don't mind the weird looking 4th gen. I was really keen to see an IROC version. :lol:
:lol: I owned 2 4th Gen Z28s but I think The 3rd Gen IROC has aged better!
Quote from: giant_mtb on June 27, 2019, 02:24:25 PM
Sometimes I wish I was better at identifying classic cars. People say shit like "oh, this is the year with the split bumper and the dual exhaust tips instead of single tips with the tail lights that were slightly oval instead of true circular" and I'm like...okay, damn. :lol:
Thats me! My boys be tripping when I can tell them the difference in 70/71/72 Chevelles or the different years of 60s Impalas just from the tail lights!
Quote from: Gotta-Qik-C6 on June 27, 2019, 09:00:22 PM
Thats me! My boys be tripping when I can tell them the difference in 70/71/72 Chevelles or the different years of 60s Impalas just from the tail lights!
How do you do with Fords? :lol:
I used to be able to look in the rear view mirror at night and tell the make, model and year of the car just by the look of the headlights. :praise:
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 28, 2019, 09:54:46 AM
How do you do with Fords? :lol:
I used to be able to look in the rear view mirror at night and tell the make, model and year of the car just by the look of the headlights. :praise:
I used to, up until the mid-2000s, and then everything just changed.
Quote from: FoMoJo on June 28, 2019, 09:54:46 AM
How do you do with Fords? :lol:
I used to be able to look in the rear view mirror at night and tell the make, model and year of the car just by the look of the headlights. :praise:
Outside of Mustangs and T Birds I'm not too good with those year wise! I'm still good with the model of the Ford tho! :ohyeah:
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on June 28, 2019, 10:20:02 AM
I used to, up until the mid-2000s, and then everything just changed.
Yeah! Everything looks like a 1985 Taurus in my rear view now! :lol:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28745460/chevy-camaro-discount-mustang-owners/
:confused:
I can't think of a reason to buy a Camaro over a Rustang, even with the discount... so I don't blame GM
Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 19, 2019, 02:48:09 PM
I can't think of a reason to buy a Camaro over a Rustang, even with the discount... so I don't blame GM
If you don't want to cut your mullet, you're stuck with the Camaro.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43389587/chevy-camaro-dead-2024/
Hopefully the next gen (undoubtedly an EV) doesn't make retarded fake whooshing noises like that Challenger EV concept did.
No more Camaros? WTF?
No electric Camaro Z69 RS SS electric crossover?
I think a Camaro EV would make more sense than a Corvette EV. Camaro's are already pretty heavy and they are more of a "GT" than a sports car anyway.
You'd think with EV's it would be easy to engineer. Just plop a coupe body on one of those skateboard platforms.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 23, 2023, 10:39:45 AM
I think a Camaro EV would make more sense than a Corvette EV. Camaro's are already pretty heavy and they are more of a "GT" than a sports car anyway.
You'd think with EV's it would be easy to engineer. Just plop a coupe body on one of those skateboard platforms.
Coupes really need a T shaped battery so they can sit lower.
God knows the Camaro would benefit from the "cameras out the ass" treatment that is oddly standard across all EVs.
Too bad about the Camaro's demise, but to be honest I haven't been seeing many of them around lately. My theory is that trucks gobbled up the Camaro's target market of "insecure enlisted personnel overflowing with testosterone". I used to see lots of Camaros near the naval bases (and Pontiac Grand Prix before that?). Not so much anymore.
Quote from: SJ_GTI on March 23, 2023, 10:39:45 AM
I think a Camaro EV would make more sense than a Corvette EV. Camaro's are already pretty heavy and they are more of a "GT" than a sports car anyway.
You'd think with EV's it would be easy to engineer. Just plop a coupe body on one of those skateboard platforms.
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 23, 2023, 11:44:59 AM
Coupes really need a T shaped battery so they can sit lower.
Yeah, that's the problem and why we aren't really seeing EV sports cars yet. The skateboard idea really only lends itself to appliance shapes to some degree.
The capital-V Volt had a "T" shaped battery pack, didn't it?
IMO, in performance trims (i.e., vents/scoops/flares/wings), the Mustang and Challenger are much more ungainly and garish vs. the Camaro and thus mos def satiate to a greater extent the low-status/insecure/emotionals (LIEs). All told though, full-size trucks are 2-3 steps above in satiating the LIEs, and why pony cars these days sell but 10% of the peak of their historical volumes.
Quote from: GoCougs on March 23, 2023, 02:25:53 PM
IMO, in performance trims (i.e., vents/scoops/flares/wings), the Mustang and Challenger are much more ungainly and garish vs. the Camaro and thus mos def satiate to a greater extent the low-status/insecure/emotionals (LIEs). All told though, full-size trucks are 2-3 steps above in satiating the LIEs, and why pony cars these days sell but 10% of the peak of their historical volumes.
I am quite satiated with TUNDRA. V8 noise, 0-60 in 6 seconds. It's basically a fat pony. :praise:
Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on March 23, 2023, 02:29:30 PM
I am quite satiated with TUNDRA. V8 noise, 0-60 in 6 seconds. It's basically a fat pony. :praise:
Early second gen Tundra wasn't there yet. The trend didn't seem to start until 10-12 years ago - Look at the ridiculous new Tundra. WTF is even going on:
(https://www.southernoffroad.com/sites/default/files/IMG_6189.JPG)
Quote from: GoCougs on March 23, 2023, 02:37:51 PM
Early second gen Tundra wasn't there yet. The trend didn't seem to start until 10-12 years ago - Look at the ridiculous new Tundra. WTF is even going on:
(https://www.southernoffroad.com/sites/default/files/IMG_6189.JPG)
The early second gen has a big truck grille, but it doesn't look like Optimus Prime fucked a Borg cube.
Tundra? more like TRONdra
Quote from: Laconian on March 23, 2023, 02:06:58 PM
The capital-V Volt had a "T" shaped battery pack, didn't it?
Yeah, just 1/3 the size of what a full EV would need. 17-18 kwh
Quote from: CaminoRacer on March 23, 2023, 03:03:07 PM
Yeah, just 1/3 the size of what a full EV would need. 17-18 kwh
If you make U-shaped 18 kwh packs, you could easily double them up by making them into a W for 36 kwh.
FINALLY. 2025 Z/28 to reportedly have the Z06's LT6. Will also probably have the DCT too.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43578551/2025-chevrolet-camaro-z28-future-cars/
Could be relevant to my interests but the last Z/28 was essentially track-only, which is probably not for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkiINnPuR_w&t=308
Shame. I will always be a Camaro guy. The 6th gen is now 10 years old and the new gen Mustang still can't match it and can only mask its deficiencies with stunts like an underpowered flat plane crank V8 and far too much power.
GM chose to put the time/money/effort into the Corvette instead. Can't blame them. The C8 is more than a runaway hit and at least the Camaro won't live on as some goofy-looking 4-door hatchback EV thingy!!!